1. idssteve's Avatar
    Newer is better ONLY if it's better.
    12-01-17 06:49 AM
  2. Newfangled's Avatar
    Buy it and change networks to one that supports BIS.
    You are a Bold Adventurer, stop denying it - just go with it!


    -- posted via CB10 on my Q10 --
    I’m seriously considering it! But I haven’t been able to talk myself out of a Q10 yet.
    12-01-17 07:26 AM
  3. Newfangled's Avatar
    So, I went to this concert party tonight with friends. All businessfolks, docs, dentists, ALL carrying iphones or the lone Samsung. And I do mean ALL. I even saw Three(!) of the iPhone Xs. As for me, I was sporting a 9300. Not even a Bold, just a lowly Curve. At least my kindle is speedier than on their new phones...

    On the other hand, while they were grumbling about poor photos in the dark, I whipped out my lumia 1020 with xenon flash and took great night photos. Old tech CAN top the new tech from time to time...
    I love hearing stories like this! The Curve line was pretty solid. My very first BlackBerry phone ever was a Curve 8530. It felt on the cheap and plasticky/rubbery side, but man was it a joy to type on and it was a lot more durable than it looked. It was my first experience with the optical trackpad and I quickly learned to fly around that phone with it.

    I have always loved Lumia cameras. Even the lowly 5 megapixel shooter on the entry-level 521 could take absolutely stunning photos.
    12-01-17 07:31 AM
  4. Newfangled's Avatar
    Newer is better ONLY if it's better.
    This simple concept is lost on so many. In our consumerist society, the stuff people bought only a year, month, or even a week ago becomes a source of intense dissatisfaction for them as soon as something newer comes along.

    So they keep buying stuff, believing it will make them happy, when in reality it soon becomes a source of unhappiness and discontent.

    Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
    David Tyler likes this.
    12-01-17 08:19 AM
  5. idssteve's Avatar
    This simple concept is lost on so many. In our consumerist society, the stuff people bought only a year, month, or even a week ago becomes a source of intense dissatisfaction for them as soon as something newer comes along.

    So they keep buying stuff, believing it will make them happy, when in reality it soon becomes a source of unhappiness and discontent.

    Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
    Yep, I recall "Lather. Rinse. Repeat..." giving your age away there... lol.

    Age old marketing (and political) strategy... NEVER fix the problem... Problems are "job security"!! Always show "progress" but always need more time, more money, more freedoms... lol.

    One can look back and see Bill Gates' application of the strategy. With each new version of dos, then windows... MS "fixed" complaints but always assured a new irritation was hidden in the new version... just so we'd all be eagerly anticipating the next version for correction... only to find newly contrived irritations to leave us hoping and praying for the next version... Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Lol.

    Now, Apple must sell discontent to sell hardware. But they're struggling against a "free" Android OS that must sell distraction to sell ad ratings. As almost all other platforms have found, how does anyone compete against a "free" OS?? A "free" OS paid for by "someone else". With most scenarios (including healthcare) the person writing the check is the true customer. Problem with "someone else" paying for your OS (or your helthcare lol) is that "someone else" is the REAL customer! A customer with priorities that aren't necessarily aligned with end user. Imo.

    BB's SAF model at least respected user role as a customer. Imo. Which is why we're still using a 6 year old fully featured flagship WE helped pay for thru BIS SAF. BB wasn't as concerned with hardware profits when BIS SAF were factored in. A preferable scenario for professionals willing to pay for professional grade equipment, imo.
    Newfangled likes this.
    12-01-17 09:43 AM
  6. idssteve's Avatar
    So, I went to this concert party tonight with friends. All businessfolks, docs, dentists, ALL carrying iphones or the lone Samsung. And I do mean ALL. I even saw Three(!) of the iPhone Xs. As for me, I was sporting a 9300. Not even a Bold, just a lowly Curve. At least my kindle is speedier than on their new phones...

    On the other hand, while they were grumbling about poor photos in the dark, I whipped out my lumia 1020 with xenon flash and took great night photos. Old tech CAN top the new tech from time to time...
    Age old Evolution vs Revolution conflict... lol. Evolution demands understanding existing concepts in order to build on them. Revolution is too frequently resorted to by folks too impatient, or too brain numb, to comprehend how an existing system functions. "Easier" to simply dump the past and start fresh with their own system that they'll, hopefully, understand. Pros & cons each way.

    I frequently experience this myself when walking in to a strange plant originally set up by a "strange" engineering team. One of the first decisions we drive toward is whether to invest time & effort into fully understanding their existing system well enough to build on it? (evolution). Or to rip & strip & build new from scratch something that WE understand... (revolution).

    Invariably, our younger team members resist understanding the "old stuff" well enough to optimize it and just want to rip, strip & start over. And that, frequently enough, is the rational path. Every now and then, tho, there's a client who is very satisfied with their existing systems and merely want to expand on it, or alter it to conform with a new product or??? In short, they're seeking to avoid revolution and simply evolve their existing system. This requires no small amount of patience but pays off with a happily satisfied customer... guess who that customer calls when it's time for an upgrade "revolution"?? ONE client is still using analog "computers" for a very special process that they're quite famous for!! Find young engineers willing to expend patience needed to wrap their brains around ANALOG processing!!! Lol.

    Likewise, I can see where a new generation of smartphone engineers might find it easier to simply construct their own revolution than to wrap their brains around what ever their predecessors were doing. This seems pretty obviously the case where BB10's QNX guys mostly abandoned BBOS for a "fresh start". A strategy that found them working thru mistakes encountered and learned in RIM's distant past. Re-learning the same lesson is rarely an efficient strategy.... lol.
    Newfangled likes this.
    12-01-17 12:48 PM
  7. anon(8063781)'s Avatar
    As almost all other platforms have found, how does anyone compete against a "free" OS?? A "free" OS paid for by "someone else".
    There's always a free OS that's just free. I use Debian on my laptop, and have for years. It's the OS that's most satisfying. It's updated, secure, and has all the programs I need. In addition, I can lumber along with my favourite desktop (LXDE) and I'm not forced to upgrade/side-grade/fake-upgrade/upgrade-for-the-sake-of-upgrading. I'm old. It's old. We like each other. Get off my lawn!
    Newfangled, andy957 and idssteve like this.
    12-01-17 07:48 PM
  8. David Tyler's Avatar
    ...The nostalgia force is strong with you. Never stop. I fully expect you to still be using a 9900 in some capacity 5 years from now. (Heck yes... -- ed.)

    I do have half a mind to get another 9900, though. Or a Q10. I am just fed up with the iOS-Android paradigm... I'm tired of companies trying to shoe-horn me into their ecosystems and compete for my attention just to milk more money and data from me.

    I'm sick of the rampant data-mining... I'm just realizing that if the cost of using a modern smartphone is my privacy - and my sanity - that's far too high a price to pay.
    Got that right. It's amazing what we've given away, all the while thinking we got such a great deal because oh-my-gosh these cute animojis!!
    12-01-17 09:52 PM
  9. David Tyler's Avatar
    Haha... I'm an engineer. Engineers optimize.
    Find the zero of that derivative, baby!

    12-01-17 10:00 PM
  10. idssteve's Avatar
    There's always a free OS that's just free. I use Debian on my laptop, and have for years. It's the OS that's most satisfying. It's updated, secure, and has all the programs I need. In addition, I can lumber along with my favourite desktop (LXDE) and I'm not forced to upgrade/side-grade/fake-upgrade/upgrade-for-the-sake-of-upgrading. I'm old. It's old. We like each other. Get off my lawn!
    +1000 for Debbie Lynn!! An open source marvel humanity can pride itself in! At least that version of "free" doesn't invade your lawn to pay for itself... haha.
    Newfangled and anon(8063781) like this.
    12-01-17 10:06 PM
  11. David Tyler's Avatar
    I suppose the fundamental issue is that people now expect capability from their devices/services that they can't possibly afford. The infrastructure and development required to give people what they want requires SERIOUS alternative revenue sources.
    Sure it does -- _now_. The mobile communication business has been built around the model of pilfering information and selling it; however, the infrastructure required to filch, store, correlate, and sell all that data ain't cheap, either.

    BlackBerry made a very successful business out of selling devices and the push email service at commodity prices. They didn't have to pay for acres of servers on barges and all the engineers and developers needed to pinpoint the optimal array of useless garbage to push at all the giggling twitter-heads so fascinated with "like" buttons and animojis.

    Sure, that was then and this is now; and the twittering masses wanted to drink nonstop from the fountain of banal entertainment. The BlackBerry of old is gone, but that doesn't mean that if the fickle consumers with daddy's charge card grow up and change their priorities, it's somehow economically impossible to sell reasonably-priced devices without also selling people's personal information.
    Newfangled likes this.
    12-01-17 10:24 PM
  12. Newfangled's Avatar
    Sure it does -- _now_. The mobile communication business has been built around the model of pilfering information and selling it; however, the infrastructure required to filch, store, correlate, and sell all that data ain't cheap, either.

    BlackBerry made a very successful business out of selling devices and the push email service at commodity prices. They didn't have to pay for acres of servers on barges and all the engineers and developers needed to pinpoint the optimal array of useless garbage to push at all the giggling twitter-heads so fascinated with "like" buttons and animojis.

    Sure, that was then and this is now; and the twittering masses wanted to drink nonstop from the fountain of banal entertainment. The BlackBerry of old is gone, but that doesn't mean that if the fickle consumers with daddy's charge card grow up and change their priorities, it's somehow economically impossible to sell reasonably-priced devices without also selling people's personal information.
    I have hope that one day we will outgrow this era of social media and perpetual distraction. I hope we will look back on this time and realize how foolish we were.
    12-01-17 10:43 PM
  13. mushroom_daddy's Avatar
    I have hope that one day we will outgrow this era of social media and perpetual distraction. I hope we will look back on this time and realize how foolish we were.
    I think that is unlikely to happen. The 'genie' is well and truly 'out of its bottle' and people have now got far more than they ever wished for!

    Technology for all its good points is having a profound and often detrimental effect on human behaviour. Look around and see the smartphone zombies, they are everywhere, getting in the way of BlackBerry users who don't have to spend every minute of the day glued to their phone, just in case they might miss the next banal notification.

    More seriously, there is strong evidence now that smartphones and endless social networking is having a detrimental effect on teenagers, mental health problems are on an almost exponential rise as children find themselves unable to manage endless networking, compete with unrealistic peer pressure and cope with insufficient sleep / rest time.
    Last edited by mushroom_daddy; 12-02-17 at 06:17 AM.
    Newfangled and rayporsche like this.
    12-02-17 03:57 AM
  14. idssteve's Avatar
    I must confess to addiction to dopamine also. Dopamine generated by REAL accomplishment. Coordinating collaboration among dozens of colleagues and clients scattered around the globe, thru this little single handed marvel of "real time" collaboration (99), generates more dopamine that I need. Lol. No need or desire for "virtual" accomplishment. MY "like" button is payment from a happy customer!

    In house testing is pretty convincing that I'll have to shed my work load at least 50% once this tiny marvel dies. Try as I might, NOthing "newer" has demonstrated workload thruput anywhere near challenging 99. The wife has been hinting that it's well past time to retire... again... lol. If this K1 is the future I'm looking forward to, retirement might finally seem attractive... lol. Getting half (really 1/4 but I'm hoping practice will improve lol) the work done only nets me half the dopamine... what's an addict supposed to do? Lol. Retire and collect "likes" all day?? Rotflmao! Haha.
    Last edited by idssteve; 12-02-17 at 07:15 AM.
    Newfangled and mushroom_daddy like this.
    12-02-17 07:00 AM
  15. idssteve's Avatar
    Sure it does -- _now_. The mobile communication business has been built around the model of pilfering information and selling it; however, the infrastructure required to filch, store, correlate, and sell all that data ain't cheap, either.

    BlackBerry made a very successful business out of selling devices and the push email service at commodity prices. They didn't have to pay for acres of servers on barges and all the engineers and developers needed to pinpoint the optimal array of useless garbage to push at all the giggling twitter-heads so fascinated with "like" buttons and animojis.

    Sure, that was then and this is now; and the twittering masses wanted to drink nonstop from the fountain of banal entertainment. The BlackBerry of old is gone, but that doesn't mean that if the fickle consumers with daddy's charge card grow up and change their priorities, it's somehow economically impossible to sell reasonably-priced devices without also selling people's personal information.
    The scheme can run much deeper than simple selling... it has coercive implications for "free market" models. Say, for hypothetical instance, you stop by a local tire dealer to inquire about new tires... gps from smartphone you're carrying reports your activities back to "CONTROL" (kaos? Lol) and suddenly you're seeing adds for tires... tires sold by a competitor down the street who "paid" more "extortion homage" than the store you stopped at....!!!! Your favorite tire store either up's his "protection contribution" (and his prices) for access or suffers sales loss.... a two way extortion scheme that makes Capone proud! Imo. Lol. I have not experienced this myself and so simple conjecture, so far. But not impossible.

    How "benevolently free" will that extortion scheme remain once final vestiges of competition (Apple?) are cleared from the stage? What will the masses TRULY pay for their "soma"? Lol. Looking more and more like a "brave new world"??? Haha.

    I agree that BB too eagerly abandoned the SAF model without adequate proof of impending doom. They're still pulling in revenues from BIS despite 5+ years since last BIS capable handset released. I know more than a few professionals who'd happily justify a SAF to maintain professional grade hardware and services! Once again, BB turned its back on that market... Pretty much ceding that professional niche to Apple, it seems. Go figure.
    Last edited by idssteve; 12-02-17 at 08:22 AM.
    12-02-17 07:56 AM
  16. conite's Avatar
    BBOS shipments (in millions) during its last two years. It was dropping like a rock (55%), while iOS and Android made unimaginable gains. The epitaph was already written for BBOS/BIS.
    12-02-17 08:56 AM
  17. RaybanRJ's Avatar
    BBOS shipments (in millions) during its last two years. It was dropping like a rock (55%), while iOS and Android made unimaginable gains. The epitaph was already written for BBOS/BIS. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2b7a87a625.jpg
    We know this well, but the word was last year that of the 20 million Blackberry users globally, over 10 million were still Legacy users. What are those numbers now?

    Of course there is a correlation to less Legacy users if there are overall LESS numbers in total but I want to know the numbers for Legacy vs Android BB users today.
    12-02-17 09:31 AM
  18. conite's Avatar
    We know this well, but the word was last year that of the 20 million Blackberry users globally, over 10 million were still Legacy users. What are those numbers now?

    Of course here is a correlation to less Legacy users if there are overall LESS numbers in total but I want to know the numbers for Legacy vs Android BB users today.
    There are only about 1 to 2 million BB10 users left, and probably less than that on BBOS.

    That 20 million number was pure fabrication, and a play on the term "active". BlackBerry had about 10 million users on each of BB10 and BBOS back in June of 2015, according to the financial statements. And, as we know, the numbers have plummeted since then. Chen may have erroneously been quoting that June 2015 number for all we know.
    12-02-17 09:34 AM
  19. RaybanRJ's Avatar

    That 20 million number was pure fabrication, and a play on the term "active". BlackBerry had about 10 million users on each of BB10 and BBOS back in June of 2015, according to the financial statements. And, as we know, the numbers have plummeted since then. Chen may have erroneously been quoting that June 2015 number for all we know.
    I read a few years ago the height of all Blackberry users globally was around 77-80 million in the earlier part of this decade. I would assume those numbers were known by activations.

    I would still be curious as to the comparison numbers of Legacy vs new Android Blackberry users, but might be difficult to acquire.
    12-02-17 09:41 AM
  20. idssteve's Avatar
    BBOS shipments (in millions) during its last two years. It was dropping like a rock (55%), while iOS and Android made unimaginable gains. The epitaph was already written for BBOS/BIS. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2b7a87a625.jpg
    Peaked, Q4 2011... with 9900 intro... no new BIS flagships after that... no surprise sales dropped with no real flagship follow up thru 2012. Imo. Especially after stupidly announcing BIS eol Q4 2011. Imo.

    BUT, was it truly heading thru the floor? Where was the bottom? My mathematician's eye sees something resembling a "zero derivative" slope in that data that indicates their market might have leveled off at some lesser, but non zero, level of survival. Imo. They lost nerve and yanked the cord without ever really really finding a bottom. Imo. There's no arguing that they'd lost any chance at marketshare dominance but I have yet to see convincing evidence that they couldn't have preserved a single digit market share in niche markets... had they not so hastily and completely abandoned and abused their faithful legacy users. Moot point, at this point. I just see nothing in that data to guarantee utter annihilation of SAF market. Only reduced market, imo. Fwiw.
    12-02-17 09:52 AM
  21. conite's Avatar
    Peaked, Q4 2011... with 9900 intro... no new BIS flagships after that... no surprise sales dropped with no real flagship follow up thru 2012. Imo. Especially after stupidly announcing BIS eol Q4 2011. Imo.

    BUT, was it truly heading thru the floor? Where was the bottom? My mathematician's eye sees something resembling a "zero derivative" slope in that data that indicates their market might have leveled off at some lesser, but non zero, level of survival. Imo. They lost nerve and yanked the cord without ever really really finding a bottom. Imo. There's no arguing that they'd lost any chance at marketshare dominance but I have yet to see convincing evidence that they couldn't have preserved a single digit market share in niche markets... had they not so hastily and completely abandoned and abused their faithful legacy users. Moot point, at this point. I just see nothing in that data to guarantee utter annihilation of SAF market. Only reduced market, imo. Fwiw.
    You're right that it may have ultimately levelled off to some niche steady state figure, but would that number have been high enough for carriers around the world to continue offering BIS? Carriers weren't fans don't forget - they had to pay BlackBerry for it AND lost out on increased data use charges from those who switched.
    12-02-17 09:55 AM
  22. RaybanRJ's Avatar
    There are only about 1 to 2 million BB10 users left, and probably less than that on BBOS.
    It was also my understanding that there were more BBOS users a couple years ago compared to total BB10 users still, but of course this left a sore spot on many BB10 forums and I clearly remember the bitterness in CB over this.
    12-02-17 10:00 AM
  23. conite's Avatar
    It was also my understanding that there were more BBOS users a couple years ago compared to total BB10 users still, but of course this left a sore spot on many BB10 forums and I clearly remember the bitterness in CB over this.
    June of 2015, they met at 10 million each. Both have been dropping like stones since.
    12-02-17 10:03 AM
  24. idssteve's Avatar
    You're right that it may have ultimately levelled off to some niche steady state figure, but would that number have been high enough for carriers around the world to continue offering BIS? Carriers weren't fans don't forget - they had to pay BlackBerry for it AND lost out on increased data use charges from those who switched.
    Agreed. And, in spite of all of that, I'm still on bis, this minute. Which means, bis aside, a non-bis SAF model might yet prove viable... we pay regular SAF for antivirus, dropbox, etc, etc... I, myself, would happily pay for browser & security updates to keep my handset current without subjecting myself to data mining extortion. I'd even pay Google what ever they're selling my data for... if "others" can purchase my user habits, why can't I??? Lol
    12-02-17 10:13 AM
  25. RaybanRJ's Avatar
    I'd even pay Google what ever they're selling my data for... if "others" can purchase my user habits, why can't I??? Lol
    Bite your tongue Steve. They are doing that anyway even without you having to pay for it
    12-02-17 10:15 AM
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