1. RaybanRJ's Avatar
    Not everyone updates because they use many cheap devices that don't provide them, old devices that are no longer supported, or don't know any better.

    None of this counters my argument about the "intelligent, common sense user".
    Well since Apple is known for keeping software updates around for years longer than any Android device, logic would dictate that iOS devices (especially older ones also) would be more “secure.”
    11-26-17 03:59 PM
  2. RaybanRJ's Avatar
    The average person probably has a vague idea that companies like Google and Facebook collect data.

    The average person has absolutely no idea how many third party companies with names they've never heard of (and names that seem to change often) collect data from many the apps they use, as well.

    The average person also has absolutely no idea what data is collected, exactly how it is collected, how much of it is collected, and how often it is collected.

    I've never heard of the companies talked about in this article, nor was I aware of their tracking methods: https://theintercept.com/2017/11/24/...-android-apps/

    Also, it is fallacious and dangerous to assume that because something is popular it must be inherently good and safe. One example that comes to mind is that Adolph Hitler rose to power through popular elections.
    I should probably delete that Tinder app on my iPhone as well

    I think both iOS and Android are bad for the tracking but in the end we have to choose the lesser of greater evils.

    But either way, we know that nothing is 100% secure or perfect.
    11-26-17 04:07 PM
  3. conite's Avatar
    Yes this is true if one is ONLY getting bad updates from say...... not sticking to downloading from the official Google Playstore, but the problem is the keylogger and nasty apps are right in the Google playstore, just like that fake Whatsapp that over 1 million Android users fell for.

    So this makes “Common sense” a non issue.
    No one with common sense would download something called "update WhatsApp".
    11-26-17 04:55 PM
  4. RaybanRJ's Avatar
    No one with common sense would download something called "update WhatsApp".
    Apparently the fakes are getting pretty tough to differentiate from the real thing now they say

    http://amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2017/...ke-google-play
    11-26-17 04:58 PM
  5. anon(8063781)'s Avatar
    Also, it is fallacious and dangerous to assume that because something is popular it must be inherently good and safe. One example that comes to mind is that Adolph Hitler rose to power through popular elections.
    Did Godwin's Law just strike this thread for the first time after 6879 Nazi-free posts? :O
    RaybanRJ likes this.
    11-26-17 05:14 PM
  6. anon(8063781)'s Avatar
    Here's an interesting story on the research into tracking: https://boingboing.net/2017/11/25/la...-hear-you.html . Apparently, the researchers are able to code an app that reveals tracking activity on an Android phone, but cannot replicate the research on iOS because they are legally barred from doing so.

    So on the tracking front, it seems that we may not have any comparative data.
    11-26-17 05:27 PM
  7. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    The average person probably has a vague idea that companies like Google and Facebook collect data.

    The average person has absolutely no idea how many third party companies with names they've never heard of (and names that seem to change often) collect data from many the apps they use, as well.

    The average person also has absolutely no idea what data is collected, exactly how it is collected, how much of it is collected, and how often it is collected.

    I've never heard of the companies talked about in this article, nor was I aware of their tracking methods: https://theintercept.com/2017/11/24/...-android-apps/

    Also, it is fallacious and dangerous to assume that because something is popular it must be inherently good and safe. One example that comes to mind is that Adolph Hitler rose to power through popular elections.
    Now we have Donald Trump as President. Look at the Philippines or Germany now and decide whether or not you can be part of the solution. My point is that far more issues are more possible to cause some of the outcomes you suggest.

    There is far more tracking of you done outside your phone as soon as wake up every morning. Your phone is the lesser of your concerns..
    11-26-17 06:25 PM
  8. Newfangled's Avatar
    Did Godwin's Law just strike this thread for the first time after 6879 Nazi-free posts? :O
    It was a legitimate, historical reference, intended to serve as an example of argumentum ad populum.

    I didn't engage in reducto ad Hitlerum or hyperbole, so I'm not sure this qualifies.
    anon(8063781) likes this.
    11-26-17 07:19 PM
  9. Newfangled's Avatar
    Now we have Donald Trump as President. Look at the Philippines or Germany now and decide whether or not you can be part of the solution. My point is that far more issues are more possible to cause some of the outcomes you suggest.

    There is far more tracking of you done outside your phone as soon as wake up every morning. Your phone is the lesser of your concerns..
    If you think there are far more important issues, that's great. Focus on the issues you feel you need to focus on.

    I feel privacy is a fundamental human right that, if infringed, has dire implications for personal liberty. And the potential for the infringement of that right by corporations, governments, and "bad guys" has never been greater in human history.
    11-26-17 07:27 PM
  10. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    If you think there are far more important issues, that's great. Focus on the issues you feel you need to focus on.

    I feel privacy is a fundamental human right that, if infringed, has dire implications for personal liberty. And the potential for the infringement of that right by corporations, governments, and "bad guys" has never been greater in human history.
    My point was that your privacy is being infringed from many directions and in greater ways than your phone.... If you're concerned with you privacy, just think of every interaction you have with technology of all kinds from the moment you wake till you go to sleep.
    11-26-17 08:18 PM
  11. David Tyler's Avatar
    Take my chances with iOS, the proof is in the pudding.
    One thing that seems indisputable: Apple built their modern revenue model on selling iPhones, not the data of their customers. The Goog's revenues flow from precisely the opposite: Develop a clunky-but-free OS; designed from the start, deep down at its nefarious and corrupt core, to pilfer user data. "Profit!"

    Good business idea -- but not exactly inspiring of trust.
    11-26-17 08:21 PM
  12. David Tyler's Avatar
    ...And most people are dumb.
    I'd argue Google counts on that.

    If you pit two intelligent, common sense individuals - one on iOS, and one on Android - against each other, NEITHER will get "hacked".
    -- and _I'm_ counting on _that_.
    11-26-17 08:23 PM
  13. David Tyler's Avatar
    Also, it is fallacious and dangerous to assume that because something is popular it must be inherently good and safe. One example that comes to mind is that Adolph Hitler rose to power through popular elections.
    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017...ebook-snapchat

    Another of the articles feeding my growing notion of a "backlash." What goes up must come down. What goes up ridiculously fast is on borrowed time.
    11-26-17 08:28 PM
  14. RaybanRJ's Avatar
    One thing that seems indisputable: Apple built their modern revenue model on selling iPhones, not the data of their customers. The Goog's revenues flow from precisely the opposite: Develop a clunky-but-free OS; designed from the start, deep down at its nefarious and corrupt core, to pilfer user data. "Profit!"

    Good business idea -- but not exactly inspiring of trust.
    Good points, all true.

    Not entirely inspiring of trust but still more private than Android perhaps.

    Buy American David if they all get our data it may as well be home grown
    11-26-17 08:46 PM
  15. David Tyler's Avatar
    ...Not entirely inspiring of trust but still more private than Android perhaps.
    I think you misunderstood me: I meant the _Google_ business model isn't (imo) "inspiring of trust." As Shuswap correctly notes, I -- and nearly everyone else -- don't have hard data to go on, but it's certainly true that Apple wants to sell you a phone, whereas The Goog wants to sell _you_.
    11-26-17 08:55 PM
  16. RaybanRJ's Avatar
    I think you misunderstood me: I meant the _Google_ business model isn't (imo) "inspiring of trust." As Shuswap correctly notes, I -- and nearly everyone else -- don't have hard data to go on, but it's certainly true that Apple wants to sell you a phone, whereas The Goog wants to sell _you_.
    K got it
    11-26-17 08:57 PM
  17. idssteve's Avatar
    Ponder what your phone "knows" about you... lol. Your messaging, browsing, purchasing, travel, ... posting.... your contact lists, Gmail, cloud everything... calendar... TWO cameras, microphone, and even GPS coordinates... !!! And mostly NO ability to pull the battery and shut it down, in most designs!! Trusting big Corp Goog is one thing... how long before Googleverse gets compromised? If not already?? Imagine how efficiently Stalin's purges might have been conducted with access to Google's mountain of data!! Lol...

    Of course the "foil hat" jokes will now commence.. haha... they'll argue that the data will actually save lives by more precisely identifying the "unbelievers" thru their habit profiles... lol. But we can at least find solace in how "cheap" that $200 handset was while in route to re-education camp... lol. Ok... where does one find real TIN foil these days??? Haha...
    RaybanRJ and Newfangled like this.
    11-26-17 09:45 PM
  18. mushroom_daddy's Avatar
    But you (idssteve) are a KEYone user, even if only on dual-carry. I don't really get the fear culture that is rumbling away here, life is full of what-ifs? I accept that using technology puts me at some risk, but I'll try and do my best to make informed decisions to minimise/mitigate those risks.

    If you trust banks with your money, why not trust Google (or some other select corporate monster) with your data?
    11-27-17 07:28 AM
  19. idssteve's Avatar
    But you (idssteve) are a KEYone user, even if only on dual-carry. I don't really get the fear culture that is rumbling away here, life is full of what-ifs? I accept that using technology puts me at some risk, but I'll try and do my best to make informed decisions to minimise/mitigate those risks.

    If you trust banks with your money, why not trust Google (or some other select corporate monster) with your data?
    Yep, I carry and use KeyOne and D60. I have yet to entrust either with my contact lists, tho. Lol. But foresee the eventuality. Again, trusting the corporations themselves is an entirely separate concept from trusting who ever might "hack" into the monster mountain of data those corporations are capable of collecting. I routinely interact with clients & colleagues who live & work in corners of the planet where being "watched" has evolved into second nature expectation. Conversations and activities ARE detectably "guarded" in those places. Something that we, here in the "free west", have no real clue about.

    Life itself demands risk management. With each breath, actually. I, myself, do not advocate fear. I advocate acknowledgment of risk factors and intelligent mitigation. Hard to mitigate something without acknowledging it first. Lol.

    Once again, humanity finds itself steep into a learning curve of knowledge generated by knowledge itself! Haha... no need for "fear". No need for blinders, either.
    mushroom_daddy likes this.
    11-27-17 08:20 AM
  20. David Tyler's Avatar
    If you trust banks with your money, why not trust Google (or some other select corporate monster) with your data?
    I _don't_ trust Google with my data.

    I have my Android phone locked down as well as I can -- I don't even let Google Play Services have any permissions; as far as I can tell, the device is working working fine without them (of course, I don't use Google apps, and I don't use many apps, period... the apps I have gotten from Google play are _paid_ apps, and I inspect the privacy agreements pretty thoroughly. If I don't like what I see, I don't buy the app). I use gmail solely as a "junk" email address, something to fill in on forms or an address to give relatives.
    11-27-17 08:47 AM
  21. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I _don't_ trust Google with my data.

    I have my Android phone locked down as well as I can -- I don't even let Google Play Services have any permissions; as far as I can tell, the device is working working fine without them (of course, I don't use Google apps, and I don't use many apps, period... the apps I have gotten from Google play are _paid_ apps, and I inspect the privacy agreements pretty thoroughly. If I don't like what I see, I don't buy the app). I use gmail solely as a "junk" email address, something to fill in on forms or an address to give relatives.
    If we have trusted government; IRS,SSI, DOJ, SEC and LEO(in my case) then what big deal are Google or Credit Bureaus?

    Denying Google doesn't remove me from the bigger players, does it?
    11-27-17 09:00 AM
  22. conite's Avatar
    I _don't_ trust Google with my data.

    I have my Android phone locked down as well as I can -- I don't even let Google Play Services have any permissions; as far as I can tell, the device is working working fine without them (of course, I don't use Google apps, and I don't use many apps, period... the apps I have gotten from Google play are _paid_ apps, and I inspect the privacy agreements pretty thoroughly. If I don't like what I see, I don't buy the app). I use gmail solely as a "junk" email address, something to fill in on forms or an address to give relatives.
    Of course you're entitled to live whatever way you like, but do you not find this a little bit restrictive?

    I mean if Google is going to take you down, 85% of the world's smartphone users would be joining you.

    And frankly, despite all your efforts and tinkering, Google would still have a solid file on you anyway.

    To me, the real security threats are the smaller institutions that don't spend enough money to secure their systems. Small financial institutions, credit rating agencies, cloud storage services, etc etc.
    Last edited by conite; 11-27-17 at 09:25 AM.
    11-27-17 09:01 AM
  23. David Tyler's Avatar
    Of course you're entitled to live whatever way you like, but do you not find this a little bit restrictive?
    No, actually -- and respectfully -- I don't. I can certainly see how some people would, but I simply don't use that many apps. I use my phones for work -- I don't shop or bank with them. My use of "social media" consists of CrackBerry and a couple of BBM chat groups.

    If an evolved BlackBerry 10 ever miraculously comes back to life somewhere in a line of phones for privacy nerds, OR if Apple ever comes out with a device with a removeable battery, a removeable SIM card, and an SD slot, this V20 will never see the light of day again. Until then, it (the Android) suits my needs fine without Google Play Services' snooping.
    11-27-17 09:17 AM
  24. David Tyler's Avatar
    If we have trusted government; IRS,SSI, DOJ, SEC and LEO(in my case) then what big deal are Google or Credit Bureaus?

    Denying Google doesn't remove me from the bigger players, does it?
    I am pretty sure after the Lois Lerner debacle, no one "trusts" the IRS. We fork over information to them because we have to pay taxes. The massive breaches at the US Office of Personnel Management, in which security clearance records (and _believe_ me: You don't get more nosy and personal than that..!) were stolen by the truckload, simply shows that where and whenever possible, we should deny access to our data. There's nothing magical about Google's powers to protect the information filched from their customers; and there's certainly nothing terribly benevolent about their intentions.

    As far as the credit reporting companies, I locked down my credit years ago, as soon as it became legal. The thieving wretches at Experian did us all the favor of proving me right...
    11-27-17 09:28 AM
  25. RaybanRJ's Avatar

    If you trust banks with your money, why not trust Google (or some other select corporate monster) with your data?
    My bank, I don’t have a problem with. In fact, my bank guarantees the money with the app and if it is stolen or hacked via the app their policy is to replace it.

    It is what can happen between the bank and your app if someone can get your information that can be compromised and I see no logic on using a type of budget device that makes its”easier” for cyber criminals to get the info they want.

    Not too long ago they were warning people standing at the debit machines that criminals have scanning machines and all they have to do is stand near you and they can clean your bank account out (or whatever the limit is on your card at that time). So there are many things people SHOULD be aware of and I don’t think it should be swept under the mat or shrugged off.

    People should be at least a little concerned about these things otherwise I guess they don’t care about much.

    How valuable is your money to you.
    11-27-17 09:40 AM
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