1. mushroom_daddy's Avatar
    Wiping phones: The SD card is tucked in a slot at the top of the chassis on the Curve, it's almost invisible. No encryption enabled, either., which is surprising. It's encrypted now.
    Encryption is a useful security option on SDcards, providing that – you don't forget your key phrase, and don't have the need to regularly swap your card between different (non BlackBerry) devices
    Last edited by mushroom_daddy; 11-01-17 at 05:11 PM.
    11-01-17 08:43 AM
  2. RaybanRJ's Avatar
    I see the old hands are still active in this corner of the CrackBerry Asylum. Viz the link above, I think one reason the Seniors are buying smartphones are that there isn't much choice otherwise, though there are a couple of 'senior' flip phones in the UK. The old BB7 phones are still selling on Amazon here.

    I picked up a used Curve 9320 last week, (the Bold's cheaper plastic cousin) - they are good for use where you don't want to be leaving a €500 glass iBrick in the car. It came from Ebay UK, but has a French AZERTY keyboard.

    The phone had been wiped but there was a 2GB micro-SD card still in the slot. It carried a lot of signed legal council documents in PDF and voice notes (in French) and the phone was obviously used at a French Council office just outside Paris. Naturally, I wiped the card and shredded it. If Yvette Dubois (not her real name) ever reads this: your data is now wiped.

    It worries me that there are still used phones around carrying private data. Clearly the reseller and the original owner had missed the SD card before passing the phone on.

    Anyway, the Curve is now installed in my car as a hands-free BlueTooth phone, the classic 'square clock' looks great on the dashboard and the AZERTY keyboard has a certain Gallic charm. A Bold would have been nicer, but the Curve was €14.95.

    Stay Bold, y'all.

    Attachment 431015
    There she is! It’s me with a new name in here (Ralph).

    One of the best features about BlackBerry is that when you wipe it clean it takes a long time and that’s because it scours every piece of data that you ever put into the phone so when a BlackBerry is wiped properly you can rest assured that it’s 100% as opposed to an iPhone or an android where there is supposedly still data even if you wipe it clean, but yeah it doesn’t make much sense to leave a microSD card in it with data. That shows it obviously wasn’t a very techy person that owned it.

    I once saved a newspaper clipping, and I wish I could find it now, that said if you’re going to wipe an android or iOS device you may as well drill holes in the device to make sure no one can ever see what you ever put on it.
    11-01-17 10:35 AM
  3. Sue-zz's Avatar
    There she is! It’s me with a new name in here (Ralph).

    One of the best features about BlackBerry is that when you wipe it clean it takes a long time and that’s because it scours every piece of data that you ever put into the phone..
    Waddup Ralph!

    We wipe old phones, then put them on the Barbecue. Maybe that's still not enough. I had a purge of older SD cards this week, of the 1GB and 2GB variety. They just breed. I had eight lying around.

    They are not immune to two pairs of pliers and a hammer. :-)

    My ancient neighbour, of 82 years, still has every old mobile phone she ever used lying in a drawer, unwiped. She wants to keep them that way 'in case they come in useful'.
    11-02-17 03:16 AM
  4. RaybanRJ's Avatar
    Waddup Ralph!

    We wipe old phones, then put them on the Barbecue. Maybe that's still not enough. I had a purge of older SD cards this week, of the 1GB and 2GB variety. They just breed. I had eight lying around.

    They are not immune to two pairs of pliers and a hammer. :-)

    My ancient neighbour, of 82 years, still has every old mobile phone she ever used lying in a drawer, unwiped. She wants to keep them that way 'in case they come in useful'.
    You need to take a pic of what she has so that we can all see the treasures ;-)
    11-02-17 03:25 AM
  5. Newfangled's Avatar
    Waddup Ralph!

    We wipe old phones, then put them on the Barbecue. Maybe that's still not enough. I had a purge of older SD cards this week, of the 1GB and 2GB variety. They just breed. I had eight lying around.

    They are not immune to two pairs of pliers and a hammer. :-)

    My ancient neighbour, of 82 years, still has every old mobile phone she ever used lying in a drawer, unwiped. She wants to keep them that way 'in case they come in useful'.
    Yikes. Is she a hoarder?
    RaybanRJ likes this.
    11-02-17 07:41 AM
  6. Sue-zz's Avatar
    Yikes. Is she a hoarder?
    No, she's of that age where you didn't throw stuff away if it wasn't broken. You kinda bought stuff on the basis it would last a lifetime. A funny attitude in the 21st Century, I know.

    I've still got an old Samsung brick from a decade ago. If ever I'm burgled I can use it as a throwing weapon, assuming I can still lift it. :-)
    RaybanRJ likes this.
    11-03-17 03:50 AM
  7. idssteve's Avatar
    Waddup Ralph!

    We wipe old phones, then put them on the Barbecue. Maybe that's still not enough. I had a purge of older SD cards this week, of the 1GB and 2GB variety. They just breed. I had eight lying around.

    They are not immune to two pairs of pliers and a hammer. :-)

    My ancient neighbour, of 82 years, still has every old mobile phone she ever used lying in a drawer, unwiped. She wants to keep them that way 'in case they come in useful'.
    Haha... a certain well known public figure here in The States once infamously "hammer wiped" some BlackBerry's... lol. My company's exposure to component repair indicates that simple mechanical infliction might not provide 100% assurance of irretrievable data "erasure". Imo. At least somewhat dependent on skill sets and motivation of whoever might want that data... lol.

    Like any lock, shifting effort/benefit ratio in effort to dis-incentivise "lazier crooks" is generally considered adequate. I've long wondered about the potential efficacy of kitchen microwave but have never tried it. Lol. Here in the breakroom, we've concluded that the surest path to "Putin proofing" (or NSA proofing lol) hardware involves reduction into a smoking molten puddle... lol.

    Of course, possibly the most critical of data might be archived away on a server far away?? Lol.

    All that said, I still fret over how far to trust "mail order repair" of my dead battery Classic since I'm unable to assuredly wipe its contact db before mailing it to strangers... lol. Home repair still awaits "scheduling"...
    RaybanRJ likes this.
    11-03-17 04:11 AM
  8. RaybanRJ's Avatar
    Hey Susie how about one of your famous security updates. How about that Krack virus?

    I don’t think the older legacy devices have to worry about it, I know iOS 11.1 just took care of that for my iPhone, but what about some of the android phones I hear they have some catching up to do.

    I find that cyber security news app fascinating and always interesting to read. If there’s something out there that affects everyone, they give tips on what you can do, etc.

    11-03-17 04:38 AM
  9. Sue-zz's Avatar
    Hey Susie how about one of your famous security updates. How about that Krack virus?

    I don’t think the older legacy devices have to worry about it, I know iOS 11.1 just took care of that for my iPhone, but what about some of the android phones I hear they have some catching up to do.

    I find that cyber security news app fascinating and always interesting to read. If there’s something out there that affects everyone, they give tips on what you can do, etc.
    The KRACK attack needs the perp to be in 'suck' distance of your WiFi, which is limiting, though perhaps not if you're in a public place like an airport. Most of the vendors are issuing updates. (BlackBerry?) VPN's offer some protection.

    OS Wars: I think the iOS phones get better. They have iMessage so users can send encrypted messages around. The standard SMS ond voice calls on iPhones are still unencrypted, though. There's a TED talk by a 'security' expert who gets this wrong and believes iOS SMS is also encrypted, but of course, that can't be so.

    Android Nougat is still a bag of compromises. I picked up a Moto C Plus last week, it's the 'developing countries' €80 Android phone and works pretty well. Except out of the box the phone/SD card isn't encrypted, though the option is there in the security settings.

    Privacy on Android is still wide open with Google slurping every possible piece of information from the phone dozens of times a minute, reading email, contacts, location, adjacent Wifi SSIDs, IMEI, IMSI, call data and SMS, and pumping advertising into apps at the user's cost on metered links.

    A lot of that can be negated with the excellent NetGuard firewall but it takes an hour or so to set up. If access to Play services are blocked/firewalled then many apps and notifications won't work, Google's polite way of coercing users into leaving their data unsecured.

    NetGuard might also be useful on the newer BlackDroid phones, but I don't have one to test.

    For encrypted calls and messages on Android, Signal is still the recommended option by Snowden and Greenwald, it's neat and unobtrusive, but meta-data is not encrypted and it's the meta-data which is the smoking-gun for NSA/GCHQ. If I message Snowden, it's clear that I've done so, even if the content of the message is not clear. (I haven't.) Also Signal links to the phone number: in itself a meta-data loophole. It's available for iPhones.

    That leaves BBOS 7/10. BIS is still up and running on many carriers, and that is unencrypted, as we know. If we devolve 'security' to mean access to communications during the over-link process, then BIS isn't secure.

    However, the security services are evolving daily, we know that if comms are unencrypted in transmission, then there is no privacy. The flipside is that using encrypted methods might bring up a flag for extra meta-data surveillance.

    Windows phone? The remainder of the phones that now update to W10, are pretty private, in that most of the telemetry is going 'only' to Microsoft. That's like saying only one set of burglars has the key to your house. However, since the latest W10 updates this month, Signal has been removed from the Windows Store, at least here in the UK, and that's one more reason to look for something else. Outlook mail and Calendar are also becoming intrusive, with Calendar/Cortana reading mails to notify you of deliveries and so on. It's like having your mother leaning over your shoulder.

    Out of all these options, the world is moving en masse to either iOS or Android, along with FaceBook/Whatsapp as the default 'internet/messaging.'

    The BIS phones and BB10 phones have the advantage of not storing so much of your private data on someone else's 'cloud' but we're slowly running out of options for truly secure and private telecomms. It's now down to the sad option of who you trust most with your data: Apple, Google, or Microsoft, with BlackBerry as a runner-up.

    As an aside, some the existing BIS carriers still have an option for BlackBerry.com email, though the service is almost unknown.

    So the choice for Crackberry-ists is a firewalled/sandboxed BlackDroid with Signal messaging, though with a limited selection of working apps, or an iPhone and iMessage.

    BB0S 7/10 phones still have an advantage that they are mostly advertising, virus and malware free, if users can live with the app famine but they might not be able to avoid a KRACK attack.
    RaybanRJ and idssteve like this.
    11-04-17 03:14 AM
  10. littlebuff's Avatar
    @Sue-zz: thanks for the update. It's not a very nice picture where we are heading to. What my future option would be, when I don't want to go iOS and Androids is kind of wide opened.
    Anyway, always enjoy reading your posts. Do come by from time to time.

    Posted via CB10
    idssteve likes this.
    11-04-17 03:40 AM
  11. Sue-zz's Avatar
    @Sue-zz: thanks for the update. It's not a very nice picture where we are heading to. What my future option would be, when I don't want to go iOS and Androids is kind of wide opened.
    Anyway, always enjoy reading your posts. Do come by from time to time.

    Posted via CB10
    Danke sehr.

    Androids can be secured, of course, at the expense of crippling apps that need Play Store/Services, but the wily CrackBerry-ist can do a lot to bypass Google slurping.

    There are advantages: low end current Android phones perform extremely well if CPU-sucking background apps and services are murdered at birth, and battery life zooms up into days, not hours. I'm a Microsoft Certified something-or-other so tend to trust MS more than say, Google, and MS are working to Adroidify their business users after the idiotic fandango that was Windows Mobile. Android user Bill Gates can't be wrong. (?)

    MS have new apps (in the Play Store). Outlook Mail and calendar work OK as does Cortana (see previous notes about your mother reading your mail). Bing is still horrible, as is MSN news, but the MS Arrow Launcher is pretty nice and bypasses Google search bars. All of these work without a Google Account and Play serivces firewalled off, once you've added them from the Play Store, and then the phone can be locked down with NetGuard.

    Signal Messenger replaces the Google Messenger SMS app, and sends 'normal' un-encrypted SMS too.

    The other advantage is stellar battery life, and very low cellular data consumption. The €80 Moto C Plus Android phone in the screen shot has used less than 40 MB of cell data over the last two days, and it shows - other than Android OS - no battery consumption by Google Play services.

    The overall effect is a bit like a Z10: apps like Here Maps work offline, email, calls and SMS are fine, and there's minimal contribution to Google. Pix upload automatically to OneDrive. Word and Excel work fine. The phone syncs notifications to my Windows 10 desktop, which is great, if you like that sort of thing.

    At the end of the day, it's who you eventually trust with your data.

    Of course, running a Bold or a BIS-phone is free of the need for stealthing an Android phone, but it can be done when Boldness must eventually give way to, er, something.

    9900:Resurgence of popularity!-screen.jpg
    11-04-17 04:37 AM
  12. Twisted Fate's Avatar
    Danke sehr.

    Androids can be secured, of course, at the expense of crippling apps that need Play Store/Services, but the wily CrackBerry-ist can do a lot to bypass Google slurping.

    There are advantages: low end current Android phones perform extremely well if CPU-sucking background apps and services are murdered at birth, and battery life zooms up into days, not hours. I'm a Microsoft Certified something-or-other so tend to trust MS more than say, Google, and MS are working to Adroidify their business users after the idiotic fandango that was Windows Mobile. Android user Bill Gates can't be wrong. (?)

    MS have new apps (in the Play Store). Outlook Mail and calendar work OK as does Cortana (see previous notes about your mother reading your mail). Bing is still horrible, as is MSN news, but the MS Arrow Launcher is pretty nice and bypasses Google search bars. All of these work without a Google Account and Play serivces firewalled off, once you've added them from the Play Store, and then the phone can be locked down with NetGuard.

    Signal Messenger replaces the Google Messenger SMS app, and sends 'normal' un-encrypted SMS too.

    The other advantage is stellar battery life, and very low cellular data consumption. The €80 Moto C Plus Android phone in the screen shot has used less than 40 MB of cell data over the last two days, and it shows - other than Android OS - no battery consumption by Google Play services.

    The overall effect is a bit like a Z10: apps like Here Maps work offline, email, calls and SMS are fine, and there's minimal contribution to Google. Pix upload automatically to OneDrive. Word and Excel work fine. The phone syncs notifications to my Windows 10 desktop, which is great, if you like that sort of thing.

    At the end of the day, it's who you eventually trust with your data.

    Of course, running a Bold or a BIS-phone is free of the need for stealthing an Android phone, but it can be done when Boldness must eventually give way to, er, something.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hello, I have been lurking here (even if I dont have a BB phone, working on that lol) and I find your posts about securing phones very interesting. Would it be too much to ask if you could make us some kind of guide for that (firewall included) if you got the time? What do you think about Wire messenger though? https://wire.com/en/ Its open source, both client and server. It offers text and voice chat. Also, any thoughts about AFWall+? I have an android phone and I am thinking of switching to LineageOS without GPlaystore, only using F-Droid, secured with a nice firewall.

    Sorry about offtopic
    11-04-17 06:42 AM
  13. Newfangled's Avatar
    The KRACK attack needs the perp to be in 'suck' distance of your WiFi, which is limiting, though perhaps not if you're in a public place like an airport. Most of the vendors are issuing updates. (BlackBerry?) VPN's offer some protection.

    OS Wars: I think the iOS phones get better. They have iMessage so users can send encrypted messages around. The standard SMS ond voice calls on iPhones are still unencrypted, though. There's a TED talk by a 'security' expert who gets this wrong and believes iOS SMS is also encrypted, but of course, that can't be so.

    Android Nougat is still a bag of compromises. I picked up a Moto C Plus last week, it's the 'developing countries' €80 Android phone and works pretty well. Except out of the box the phone/SD card isn't encrypted, though the option is there in the security settings.

    Privacy on Android is still wide open with Google slurping every possible piece of information from the phone dozens of times a minute, reading email, contacts, location, adjacent Wifi SSIDs, IMEI, IMSI, call data and SMS, and pumping advertising into apps at the user's cost on metered links.

    A lot of that can be negated with the excellent NetGuard firewall but it takes an hour or so to set up. If access to Play services are blocked/firewalled then many apps and notifications won't work, Google's polite way of coercing users into leaving their data unsecured.

    NetGuard might also be useful on the newer BlackDroid phones, but I don't have one to test.

    For encrypted calls and messages on Android, Signal is still the recommended option by Snowden and Greenwald, it's neat and unobtrusive, but meta-data is not encrypted and it's the meta-data which is the smoking-gun for NSA/GCHQ. If I message Snowden, it's clear that I've done so, even if the content of the message is not clear. (I haven't.) Also Signal links to the phone number: in itself a meta-data loophole. It's available for iPhones.

    That leaves BBOS 7/10. BIS is still up and running on many carriers, and that is unencrypted, as we know. If we devolve 'security' to mean access to communications during the over-link process, then BIS isn't secure.

    However, the security services are evolving daily, we know that if comms are unencrypted in transmission, then there is no privacy. The flipside is that using encrypted methods might bring up a flag for extra meta-data surveillance.

    Windows phone? The remainder of the phones that now update to W10, are pretty private, in that most of the telemetry is going 'only' to Microsoft. That's like saying only one set of burglars has the key to your house. However, since the latest W10 updates this month, Signal has been removed from the Windows Store, at least here in the UK, and that's one more reason to look for something else. Outlook mail and Calendar are also becoming intrusive, with Calendar/Cortana reading mails to notify you of deliveries and so on. It's like having your mother leaning over your shoulder.

    Out of all these options, the world is moving en masse to either iOS or Android, along with FaceBook/Whatsapp as the default 'internet/messaging.'

    The BIS phones and BB10 phones have the advantage of not storing so much of your private data on someone else's 'cloud' but we're slowly running out of options for truly secure and private telecomms. It's now down to the sad option of who you trust most with your data: Apple, Google, or Microsoft, with BlackBerry as a runner-up.

    As an aside, some the existing BIS carriers still have an option for BlackBerry.com email, though the service is almost unknown.

    So the choice for Crackberry-ists is a firewalled/sandboxed BlackDroid with Signal messaging, though with a limited selection of working apps, or an iPhone and iMessage.

    BB0S 7/10 phones still have an advantage that they are mostly advertising, virus and malware free, if users can live with the app famine but they might not be able to avoid a KRACK attack.
    Aside from the "app gap," my concern with BB10 and BBOS is that they are not keeping up with the newest security threats (like KRACK).

    However, these threats may be mitigated somewhat by a couple of things:

    First, the user footprint is so small, potential attackers probably wouldn't bother to spend the time developing methods of attack against BBOS and BB10 but rather concentrate on more potentially lucrative targets, such as Android. The vast majority of Android phones being used today are running versions of Android older than Nougat and never receive security patches.

    Second, unlike Android, BB10 and BBOS were designed from the first line of code with security and privacy in mind. So even if an attacker tried, they may not be able to do much damage or steal much info.

    That said, I have found it necessary to move on from BBOS and BB10 for a number of reasons (which I won't detail here), and while I am still agonizing over where to go, I am almost completely certain I will end up on iOS (again...I used a iPhone SE for 6 months straight earlier this year, but am currently exploring my options).

    The reason is simple: unlike Google and now Microsoft to a lesser degree, Apple's business model has nothing to do with targeted ads. And I agree with their strong stance on encryption and privacy (and I fully acknowledge their past gaffes in this area, but appreciate their recent strides).

    Also, most of my close family and friends are all using iPhones. Many of them are not very technically-minded and wouldn't use apps like Signal even if I helped set them up, so having iMessage built in and encrypting messages by default is a welcome feature.

    I'm using a Moto E4 at the moment, and it's a brilliant little device. But I don't have it locked down from Google Play Services. Yes, Google supposedly anonymizes the data they collect, but the fact they are making most of their money off using it for targeted ads is creepy to me.
    11-04-17 09:42 AM
  14. anon(8063781)'s Avatar
    and while I am still agonizing over where to go, I am almost completely certain I will end up on iOS (again...I used a iPhone SE for 6 months straight earlier this year, but am currently exploring my options).
    That rather expensive iPhone X looks nice. If I felt like taking out a second mortgage, I'd get one lol. I especially like that updated version of the webOS UI they've created. Now if only there was an iPhone with a physical keyboard...
    11-04-17 12:22 PM
  15. anon(8063781)'s Avatar
    Sorry about offtopic
    There is no off-topic here! :P We burned that bridge a long time ago...
    11-04-17 12:24 PM
  16. Newfangled's Avatar
    That rather expensive iPhone X looks nice. If I felt like taking out a second mortgage, I'd get one lol. I especially like that updated version of the webOS UI they've created. Now if only there was an iPhone with a physical keyboard...
    If money were no object, I'd probably get one.
    11-04-17 02:00 PM
  17. Sue-zz's Avatar
    Hello, I have been lurking here (even if I dont have a BB phone, working on that lol) and I find your posts about securing phones very interesting. Would it be too much to ask if you could make us some kind of guide... (snip)

    Sorry about offtopic
    Well, Android has been called Google's cash register. It's our data they're selling.

    So: I can't help with other apps or OS's as my time for testing is limited. What probably has come over from my posts is that I'm attempting to make my data go only where I direct it, which is mostly away from Google.

    I have to use MS W10 desktops & Outlook Mail/Calendar, and so I like the 'Blend'-type notifications you can configure with the MS app suite for Android with the updated MS Arrow Launcher. Arrow has a BB Hub-like active page, to which Widgets like 'Recent Activity' can be added. There's SwiftKey too, if you want a No-Google keyboard.

    The tools are a firewall/logger (NetGuard), granular app management, and alternate messaging and email apps. And a day of your time.

    From Marshmallow (?), and certainly in Nougat, individual app permissions can be set, so you can block app preferences that want access to your contacts, camera, mic etc. It's trial and error, and time consuming.

    In the Apps section of Settings, apps can be forced to stop, and then disabled. However, Google Play Store will attempt to re-enable these with updates, so the first thing to turn off is 'automatically update apps' in the Play Store (swipe right for the menu.) Once you've got all the apps you need on your phone, the Google account can be deleted in Settings/Accounts. Sneakily, Google Account Manager and Play Services will still try and sync 'something', even with no Google account on the phone. Hence NetGuard.

    NetGuard takes some setting up. It's a VPN sinkhole which offers blocking of apps on either wifi, cellular or both, by dumping data-calls into the internal VPN sink. There's a logging feature in the paid-for update, and updating kills the advertising, forced into the 'free' app by Google.

    A combination of these methods can lock an Android down, at least as far as Google data mining goes. Then, using the logging feature in NetGuard you can track down what services are phoning home, or loading advertising, and block them.

    The only weird log entry I've had today turns out to be 'safe': Try this Whois:

    157.7.208.12 | IP Address in Japan, Tokyo

    As to other messaging apps, it's hard to get friends to move to more secure apps like Signal, but there are lot more options for message encryption these days. Telegram is popular in some countries, but the security-pros tend to favour Signal, and there's a new Windows 10 desktop version just released which syncs to the handset.

    Other than the above, I use the MS Outlook app for mail, it works with other mail and calendar services too, and keeps my mail away from Google servers. It doesn't appear to be doing anything questionable.

    The NetGuard logs show nothing is escaping to Google so far, I presume they can be trusted. The phone (Moto C Plus, similar to E4) is proving very stable with this set-up , but I'm not on FaceBook or WhatsApp etc, so don't have their privacy 'issues' to worry over.

    The NetGuard dev. is active on Github, here's the FAQ page:

    https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard

    I actually half-considered a BlackDroid like the Priv, but so far, the €80 euro locked-down Moto is looking secure enough (for me) while still functioning well. I mainly only use email/sms/phone/Here maps and Firefox.

    ---

    After all this Android fuss, Bis/Bold/BB10 users will be happier still with their 'quiet' un-Googly handsets. :-)
    11-04-17 03:34 PM
  18. Sue-zz's Avatar

    (snip)

    Also, most of my close family and friends are all using iPhones. Many of them are not very technically-minded and wouldn't use apps like Signal even if I helped set them up, so having iMessage built in and encrypting messages by default is a welcome feature.

    I'm using a Moto E4 at the moment, and it's a brilliant little device. But I don't have it locked down from Google Play Services. Yes, Google supposedly anonymizes the data they collect, but the fact they are making most of their money off using it for targeted ads is creepy to me.
    Amen to the above. iMessage almost tempted me to the Lair of the Fruit Beast, but we cheapskates have to compromise. The current Moto's are excellent. :-)
    11-04-17 03:41 PM
  19. RaybanRJ's Avatar
    That rather expensive iPhone X looks nice. If I felt like taking out a second mortgage, I'd get one lol. I especially like that updated version of the webOS UI they've created. Now if only there was an iPhone with a physical keyboard...
    Yeah I checked the Rogers two-year contract price yesterday and it’s $599, meanwhile you can get an iPhone eight for like $200 on the same contract
    ColinsCity likes this.
    11-04-17 04:07 PM
  20. RCJ28's Avatar
    That rather expensive iPhone X looks nice. If I felt like taking out a second mortgage, I'd get one lol. I especially like that updated version of the webOS UI they've created. Now if only there was an iPhone with a physical keyboard...
    How could someone justify paying for something like that that doesn't even have "Porsche Design" stamped onto it?
    rayporsche likes this.
    11-05-17 01:31 AM
  21. RaybanRJ's Avatar
    How could someone justify paying for something like that that doesn't even have "Porsche Design" stamped onto it?
    It is considered a status luxury item and they are sold out in most places I read. Just like there is no shortage of those willing to line up to buy Ferrari or Rolls Royce, there is always a market for these high-priced items.
    11-05-17 01:36 AM
  22. Twisted Fate's Avatar
    Remember, remember the fifth of November.. Happy 5th November everyone!
    11-05-17 06:37 AM
  23. idssteve's Avatar
    Amazing how spectacularly efficient things can operate when people behave with common, ordinary honesty, courtesy, decency and respect. NO one, in the small midwestern town I grew up in, locked their doors nor removed keys from cars!! Most couldn't locate keys to their homes if they had to. I recall leaving cash in a Roi-Tan box for gasoline! Dad frequently left MORE in the box than actually purchased!! We habitually put in a good 9hrs work for 8hrs pay! The miracle of that "extra mile" ya kno.

    NO one in THAT community worried about laws, or even "morals". It was taken for granted that self worth was self derived. That paying more than asked for contributed to that self worth and subsequent self confidence. That stealing, or shorting others, would diminish self worth & confidence in self destructive ways. We simply couldn't imagine living the rest of our days, AND meeting our Maker, having cheated ANY one in ANY way!! "Real men" had to look themselves in the face while shaving every day, after all. Lol.

    Ponder opportunity cost across the globe of all of the time, distraction and resources invested into tolerating dishonest behavior. How many starving mouths could be fed with the resources expended supporting and circumventing parasitic dishonesty!!

    I recall the early Compuserve days and how mutual respect and decency were simply expected. The pitiful technology of the day would have fell flat on its face dealing with dishonestly we've all grown to expect, now days.

    Ah, the "good old days"... when we walked 50miles to school... up hill both ways!!! Haha... at least on days when we failed to lasso a pterodactyl to ride... haha... lol
    Last edited by idssteve; 11-05-17 at 12:22 PM.
    RaybanRJ and mushroom_daddy like this.
    11-05-17 11:52 AM
  24. Sue-zz's Avatar
    How could someone justify paying for something like that that doesn't even have "Porsche Design" stamped onto it?
    The acidic UK press seized on the $1000+ cost of the xPhone calling it extortion. (Don't forget to add $150 for a Burberry case, and $199 for AppleCare.) Tim Cook, purveyor of iDreams, said you could own one for the price of a daily boutique coffee:

    " I think you would find you could buy an iPhone X for $33 a month," said Cook. "And so if you think about that, that's a few coffees a week. It's let's say less than a coffee a day at one of these nice coffee places." (CNBC)

    You can't put a price on status symbols. :-)

    At the other end of the scale there is (in Yoorop) a growing fanbase of Shenzen-built Androids, as low as €30. There's a trend for the lads to take a cheap flight to Shenzen for the weekend and bring back a case-full of Cubots, Xiomi's, iClones, and Doogees to sell in bars in Amsterdam and Paris.

    The Yoorop Customs people are impounding them at airports as counterfeits, though you can still bring in one for personal use.

    A new boxed Bold 9900 is just £79.95 on Ebay here.
    Attached Thumbnails 9900:Resurgence of popularity!-clipboard01.jpg  
    11-06-17 01:40 AM
  25. idssteve's Avatar
    Our 99's were considered expensive in 2011. Of course the "plan price" concealed much "outright" price. I recall something like $20/ month for BIS... which represented a major portion of high margin revenue for RIM and helped to pay for the flagship handset. Apple's market model differs from RIM but they might now be experiencing market share slippage somewhat analogous to RIM's situation in 2011???

    If so, Apple's market shrewdness might lead them toward a more professional oriented "high margin low volume" niche. ?? A niche that BB foolishly abandoned by abandoning the fully featured professional oriented 99, imo.

    Some professions can easily justify investing a premium into security and privacy orientation. Those of us engaged in professions demanding real time availability inevitably get trusted with many clients' personal contact information, for example. Information inevitably stored on a handset. How much $$ is it worth to keep Google's eyes from my client's personal contact info?? A responsibility that I, myself, take very seriously.

    I have not yet entrusted that private list to ANY Android handset. Some of my clients live under relatively invasive conditions. They express appreciation that their personal contact info is not haphazardly tossed about over cloud services nor available to Google. I'm just an engineer but can't imagine how so many attorneys, for example, store their client contact info on clouds & Android... ??? Another motive for keeping my "pro grade" 99. . If forced to abandon 99, iOS's developing privacy reputation would top my list for consideration. Too bad BB abandoned that niche so readily, imo.
    Last edited by idssteve; 11-06-17 at 04:11 AM.
    11-06-17 03:44 AM
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