09-25-11 08:36 PM
31 12
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  1. ssbtech's Avatar
    When RIM sticks the Android player on the PlayBook, what incentive will developers have to build QNX apps? From what I've heard, RIM isn't very developer friendly, and given the small market share of PlayBooks I can't see why anyone would want to develop QNX apps.
    09-23-11 06:13 PM
  2. kingbernie06511's Avatar
    i know, im preoccupied by this. thats why the first qnx phone has to be a large phone with the same res at the PB to allow direct compatibility for apps from PB to QNX BB. That whay they push the new ecosystem in two ways.

    its also sad that the 9900 will likely no run QNX, seems like it needs dual core. Imagine if all the 9900 out there were running the new OS, this would reward early QNX developpers by having a huge user base
    09-23-11 06:28 PM
  3. mandony's Avatar
    OP: quite honestly, I DON'T care if I run BB or Android apps.
    'Any port in a storm; as long as the PB works!
    Who cares? NOT me.
    09-23-11 06:37 PM
  4. alekza's Avatar
    OP: quite honestly, I DON'T care if I run BB or Android apps.
    'Any port in a storm; as long as the PB works!
    Who cares? NOT me.
    yeah but the difderence is that qnx apps are suppose to be made to optimize the resources of PB... android by being ported or emulated might on somecases be unefficient.
    09-23-11 06:55 PM
  5. ssbtech's Avatar
    OP: quite honestly, I DON'T care if I run BB or Android apps.
    'Any port in a storm; as long as the PB works!
    Who cares? NOT me.
    And the other issue - multitasking functionality is sure to be reduced with the Android Player, unless they allow multiple instances to be launched.
    09-23-11 07:16 PM
  6. s219's Avatar
    Not sure it can spell the "end" yet. We haven't even seen the "beginning" of native apps on the device, thanks to RIM's incompetence.
    FF22 and notfanboy like this.
    09-23-11 08:24 PM
  7. FourOhFour's Avatar
    When RIM sticks the Android player on the PlayBook, what incentive will developers have to build QNX apps?
    The fact that the android player will eat up like 300 or 400MB of system memory to run (of which there is only like 600-700MB available usually) ?
    peter9477 likes this.
    09-23-11 09:27 PM
  8. gbsn's Avatar
    I see the android player as another development platform. Java didn't kill development of C++ in windows, but obviously that is in another scale. Android player will be java, NDK will be C/C++, Adobe is AIR/Flash/ActionScript. Its just another alternative.

    Any beta/alpha phase memory usage claims of the android player is speculation. There are several ways that it can be implemented in QNX. A full emulator/virtualization is not the only one, and it certainly isn't the most memory efficient. Considering it wont run android apps that use the proprietary android APIs, i dont see the need to run a virtualized copy of the android OS in QNX. Only the core of what makes it work, which is the virtual machine plus a few other things, would probably suffice. In addition, there have been "statements" by RIM executives that the android player will be capable of hardware acceleration and rich graphics, but you know how light word from RIM execs is so... Sure, you may get ugly looking phone versions of apps, if they are directly ported. But then developers have the option to write a java based app for the playbook and run it through the player. Its just a matter of how well can RIM drive developers onto the platform, for which they certainly have not had good luck, or have not done a really good job at all.
    Last edited by gbsn; 09-23-11 at 10:40 PM.
    dentynefire and chiefbroski like this.
    09-23-11 10:23 PM
  9. chiefbroski's Avatar
    I think its great for to developers and also a great small step into the era of more cross-platform development. I really hope RIM keeps working on trying to standardize app development as it will help address some of their weaknesses.

    I agree with gbsn too. It won't spell the end of QNX apps. With the right dev tools, RIM can successfully lure in the big-name apps.
    09-24-11 12:42 AM
  10. blackjack93117's Avatar
    I see the android player as another development platform. Java didn't kill development of C++ in windows, but obviously that is in another scale. Android player will be java, NDK will be C/C++, Adobe is AIR/Flash/ActionScript. Its just another alternative.

    Any beta/alpha phase memory usage claims of the android player is speculation. There are several ways that it can be implemented in QNX. A full emulator/virtualization is not the only one, and it certainly isn't the most memory efficient. Considering it wont run android apps that use the proprietary android APIs, i dont see the need to run a virtualized copy of the android OS in QNX. Only the core of what makes it work, which is the virtual machine plus a few other things, would probably suffice. In addition, there have been "statements" by RIM executives that the android player will be capable of hardware acceleration and rich graphics, but you know how light word from RIM execs is so... Sure, you may get ugly looking phone versions of apps, if they are directly ported. But then developers have the option to write a java based app for the playbook and run it through the player. Its just a matter of how well can RIM drive developers onto the platform, for which they certainly have not had good luck, or have not done a really good job at all.
    Huh? Oh yeah.
    You really need a new avatar - makes it hard to focus on your posts...didn't hear a word you said.
    09-24-11 12:56 AM
  11. southlander's Avatar
    To me it is a question of how well RIM is able to make it easy for joe consumer to understand they can run Android apps and make it easy to do. If it is kludgy forget it. But if done well, maybe it could play out like so...

    1. RIM makes app world seamlessly display Android apps for the PB. Makes it easy for devs to make their apps available. If they bite...

    2. RIM is able to market Android compatibility successfully. Well enough that the general tablet market knows the PB is great hardware that can run Android apps.

    3. More people buy PlayBooks. Hardware is great and can now do Android. Installed base grows more quickly.

    4. Enough app devs do well that some decide they want higher performing native PB versions of apps. They write them.

    5. Consumers buy the native apps too, etc. The loop reinforces itself to grow the native apps base by bringing in devs to test waters via the easy porting method. The best ones stay and churn out native apps.

    That is such an optimistic scenario... Yes I know.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9930 using Tapatalk
    09-24-11 12:57 AM
  12. jtfolden's Avatar
    That is such an optimistic scenario... Yes I know.

    ...and the only real comparison we have is IBM's OS/2 operating system. Completely loved by its fans, fumbled marketing and direction by IBM, and astonishingly good compatibility with DOS and Windows apps. IBM even went so far to market that fact under a campaign of "A better DOS than DOS, a better Windows than Windows". It accomplished the task so well that developers just told consumers to buy their Windows apps and run them so they wouldn't have to waste development time supporting yet another platform. ...and when a new version of Windows was finally released, everyone switched because they had no loyalty to OS/2 and no real OS/2 apps to hold them back.


    The Android Player could be great for the short term because it's give existing users something extra...but how do you push this in marketing? It doesn't help against the iPad at all and I'm unclear what it might hold over Android devices. The BB connection obviously isn't pulling in sales at all and if a consumer is interested in running Android apps, they may just buy a Tab or Transformer instead.

    Of course, if RIM officially lowers the price to around $299 with the release of OS 2.0, it might inspire some growth. The problem here is that Amazon's rumored $250 tablet is reportedly arriving September 28th.

    I really like the Playbook but RIM has to solve the native app problem.
    09-24-11 01:35 AM
  13. ferganer's Avatar
    BTW, I don't know if this has been answered. But will Android Player apps run as smoothly and require as much of the hardware resources (i.e. not more) as the native QNX apps? I was just thinking that Android Player was some sort of virtualization. Am I wrong here?
    wiredr likes this.
    09-24-11 01:45 AM
  14. gbsn's Avatar
    BTW, I don't know if this has been answered. But will Android Player apps run as smoothly and require as much of the hardware resources (i.e. not more) as the native QNX apps? I was just thinking that Android Player was some sort of virtualization. Am I wrong here?
    Java runs on a virtual machine, but its a whole different than virtualizing an operating system, like many suggest. I dont think anybody knows exactly the "under the hood" implementation RIM is using with the player, except for the ones making it.
    Android OS does not execute java bytecode from a regular stack based JVM, it uses the register based dalvik vm which takes java classes and makes them into dex files. Android just uses the java syntax and some libraries so to speak, but it doesn't use the JVM or the bytecode, basically, it doesn't "run" java or its not "pure" java, the java part is just what you write, not what its executed per se. The dalvik vm is strongly attached to the linux kernel android uses, which then f*cks up any assumption i had as to how they are going to virtualize such attachment or if they can adapt qnx to take onto the vm directly, or virtualize the linux kernel. A stoner's job any way...
    Last edited by gbsn; 09-24-11 at 02:23 AM.
    09-24-11 02:17 AM
  15. DaveTheA's Avatar
    Well, I think my stance on the matter is pretty clear...

    I will always prefer a native app over Android. I think the comparison to OS/2 Warp back in the day is very apt...[yes, I was a Warper]. However we'll have to make a concerted effort to encourage QNX development with our support...esp. our monetary support. If all there is available are Android apps, the Playbook will be beaten out by the first cheaper Android tablet that comes along. Sure Playbook hardware is great, but that won't be a strong enough selling point.
    09-24-11 02:38 AM
  16. Innovatology's Avatar
    With a native PlayBook QNX app you can be sure it was developed specifically for (and tested extensively on) the PlayBook, its form factor, performance, storage, security, gestures, conventions etc. With Android apps, who knows...

    I hope RIM make it easy for App World users to distinguish between native apps and re-packaged Android apps.
    09-24-11 03:27 AM
  17. CrackedBarry's Avatar
    Well, it sure is nice of RIM to provide their developers with an escape hatch like the Android Player. But it'll hurt QNX development, as Developers are pushed to other platforms.

    Imagine you're a developer. You can choose to make a native app for QNX, and have a very limited userbase of around a million Playbook users, OR... You can toss out the QNX SDK, and download Googles excellent development tools. You write your app for Android, and while you'll still recompile it for QNX/Playbook and submit it to App World, you can also put the finished product on Android Market, where there are dozens of millions of potential users, ON TOP of the Playbook users.

    You'll probably have to sell it at a slightly lower price on the Market though, as the prices there in general are lower. But that doesn't matter, because you'll still make a killing on the Android Market compared to BB App World.

    And Voila, Android has just gotten an extra developer, they wouldn't normally have had.

    And in the meantime, Playbook users start to complain about the same app being cheaper for Android, realize just how much they HAVE been missing out on in regards to apps, and choose to buy the latest and greatest Android tablet as soon as they can.
    09-24-11 05:43 AM
  18. nextlevel88's Avatar
    Here's your quote from another thread:
    "Of course, with Blackberry losing a lot of the market share it once had, it might not be a very attractive operating system to develop for much longer. Larger prices but lower sales might just average out or result in losses, compared to a more competitively priced and better selling app in the Android or Apple app stores."
    And your post in this one:
    And Voila, Android has just gotten an extra developer, they wouldn't normally have had.
    It doesn't really work both ways. Either BlackBerry has no chance of enticing developers to develop natively for their platform or they're giving away all their developers to Android. In other words, the odds of there being an app developer that doesn't already develop for Android are very slim.

    The Android Player is a chance for RIM to have the chicken before the egg. Being this late to the party with a new OS is hindering them, and it's hard to entice customers without apps. But at the same time, it's hard to entice app development without customers.

    The addition of the Android Player gives RIM the opportunity to boast an app count in their feature list. Customers won't likely care how the apps are ported, they'll just care that they are there. I think the hope is that if the user base grows around this, customers will begin to demand more robust, customized, tablet-oriented apps that utilize all the capabilities of the PlayBook hardware. From there, the native app selection will grow.
    eprklims and d3adcrab like this.
    09-24-11 11:06 AM
  19. CrackedBarry's Avatar
    Of course it work both ways. Where is the contradiction in not being able to attract developers, WHILE at the same time making it enticing for EXISTING developers to jump ship. There is none.

    And no, it's not hard to attract developers without havig users. It takes an effort, and it costs money, but its not hard. Just ask Microsoft. From 0 to over 20.000 apps in less than a year, for WP7.
    09-24-11 12:05 PM
  20. dentynefire's Avatar
    If an Android app is written using the android NDK it won't run on the PB. A developer would have to use their own libraries or rewrite code that depends on the Android NDK.

    So basically it will run all the java coded apps.

    If a developer wants to port a c/c++ app then they need the gui framework to work on the PB also. Hopefully this is what TAT is working on
    09-24-11 07:40 PM
  21. dentynefire's Avatar
    Of course it work both ways. Where is the contradiction in not being able to attract developers, WHILE at the same time making it enticing for EXISTING developers to jump ship. There is none.

    And no, it's not hard to attract developers without havig users. It takes an effort, and it costs money, but its not hard. Just ask Microsoft. From 0 to over 20.000 apps in less than a year, for WP7.
    Microsoft has had thousands of developers for years pumping out freeware/shareware. I'll take a look later on to check it out but I'm not interested in anything microsoft. their live tiles do not look interesting, they provide many tiles of shallow information. It seems okay but nothing revolutionary, typical MS crap.

    For QNX, if you were to put a gui on top of the thousands of consol apps/scripts then that would be cool IMO. Maybe PB will have Perl at some point and QT
    09-24-11 07:46 PM
  22. Wretch 12's Avatar
    I see this being the J2ME of QNX - you're limited by what you can produce cross-platform, so people still make native apps to bypass that.
    09-24-11 07:51 PM
  23. lnichols's Avatar
    I wonder to myself sometimes if part of the reason we haven't seen some of the major apps on the PB is because of lazy developers waiting for the Android Player. I think it was a mistake for RIM to announce it, especially since they had no intention to deliver it until after devCON. I think it has stagnated app development for the device. I really can't blame the developers, if two clowns running a company tell the world this device will run Android apps, and I have an Android app, why re-invent the wheel just wait for the player. They shouldn't have announced Android Player until devCon. I think RIM should hire two large body guards that follow Mike and Jim and anytime one of them opens their mouth they get punched in the face. They are their own worst enemy.
    howarmat likes this.
    09-24-11 09:25 PM
  24. FourOhFour's Avatar
    If an Android app is written using the android NDK it won't run on the PB.
    Um, that sounds incorrect. Are you implying that the hundreds of Android apps people were downloading from the Android Marketplace and successfully running on the leaked Playbook Android player (in August) were not written using the Android NDK?
    The point of porting Android to run on QNX is that it will run Android apps.
    09-24-11 11:30 PM
  25. guerllamo7's Avatar
    I think the native apps will have greater integration and work better. However, the idea is to suddenly get all the popular apps on the Playbook very quickly that work well enough. There are benefits to doing this but RIM did not buy TAT for nothing. They are probably developing a bunch of "over the top" apps for the Playbook and that will run on the QNX Blackberry phones.
    Either way, it is a win for Blackberry fans like us.
    09-25-11 12:24 AM
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