04-27-11 03:06 PM
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  1. sleepngbear's Avatar
    Takes a pic huh? Your understanding of the multitasking of iOS is amazing. lol The apps don't close homey... if they did, pushed updates and other functionality of those apps wouldn't work while in the background. But of course, let's just overlook that fact.

    In the end, I don't think it really matters because the two major factors the PB was supposed to excel in will shift to the bottom of the list.

    Flash = People have already said they'd probably turn it off to help browser speed when not needed.
    Active Multitasking = Has memory limitations.

    What's left?
    Ok, Noisy Cricket in a thigh holster or not, I'm really starting to think you're just seeding these threads to pi$$ people off and kick up the post and page hit counts. Maybe it's just me.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Jake Storm likes this.
    04-15-11 02:53 PM
  2. MisterMe11's Avatar
    Actually, the tablet caching to its own flash memory will be a whole lot faster than a computer caching to an hdd. SSDs are NAND flash, just like almost all flash memory on the market, which the playbook has. So, if the playbook were to "page" inactive parts of the memory, there wouldn't be that much of a performance impact.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    But SSDs have sophisticated controllers that keep track of and manage how many times each memory location is 'written to' over the device lifetime - there is a limit before you get failures. If the OS starts using available flash as a cache and it doesn't have such a controller, won't that lead to trouble?
    04-15-11 03:01 PM
  3. moretreelessbush's Avatar
    Not all the apps need to stay in the memory, those don't need to actively run on the background, e.g. web/file browser can be safely paged to flash memory. A true multi-tasking OS doesn't need to be dumb.
    04-15-11 04:00 PM
  4. peter9477's Avatar
    But SSDs have sophisticated controllers that keep track of and manage how many times each memory location is 'written to' over the device lifetime - there is a limit before you get failures. If the OS starts using available flash as a cache and it doesn't have such a controller, won't that lead to trouble?
    The better filesystems do "wear levelling", to maximize the life of the flash, but even then I doubt that using flash memory for a swap file makes sense most of the time. I believe the tablet will not do swapping to the flash just to let you fill memory with mostly inactive apps.

    There are some docs somewhere that state that the least-recently-used apps will be terminated, but their "image" will remain in the app switching area (whatever we call it.. the shuttle bar?) and if you "activate" them again they may just be relaunched. This would require that the app properly persist its state when it gets shut down for low-memory reasons, and it's also a feature that may not be implemented at this time.

    I don't think we've seen any sign of it in the simulator, and it may only be planned, or proposed, for the future. In any case, that would probably be the "right" way to do this on a device like this, rather than swapping.
    Last edited by peter9477; 04-15-11 at 09:17 PM. Reason: minor typo
    MisterMe11 likes this.
    04-15-11 05:39 PM
  5. CrackBerry Kevin's Avatar
    i havent had the low memory warning since getting on the latest os build. seems its better under control now.
    SlcCorrado likes this.
    04-15-11 10:57 PM
  6. lotuslanderz's Avatar
    i havent had the low memory warning since getting on the latest os build. seems its better under control now.
    Good to hear! What build number is this?
    04-15-11 11:08 PM
  7. howarmat's Avatar
    good to hear...you on 1628 or higher?
    04-15-11 11:09 PM
  8. mahen915's Avatar
    i havent had the low memory warning since getting on the latest os build. seems its better under control now.
    I expect it to definitely get better over time. Webkit is compiled natively to the platform and, in it's current state, is apparently wrought with memory leaks. Memory leaks can, and will be plugged.
    04-15-11 11:14 PM
  9. SlcCorrado's Avatar
    i havent had the low memory warning since getting on the latest os build. seems its better under control now.
    Good to know, getting a little heated haha
    04-15-11 11:17 PM
  10. greatwiseone's Avatar
    i havent had the low memory warning since getting on the latest os build. seems its better under control now.
    Thanks Kevin! That's what I like to hear. I think you would need to do an updated review once the April 19 build.

    I think I saw it somewhere that RIM blamed Docs to go and Bing maps for the memory leak and that they were fixing it.
    04-16-11 12:40 AM
  11. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    I'm voting for a video that tests how many apps and browser tabs one can have open before the PB chokes. You can even do it up on your 50" TV so people can see it easier.
    04-16-11 12:45 AM
  12. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    Ha,y pos storm says memory low all the time and deletes all my important saved calendar events. Even though I only have 2 apps and a ton of free space left. POS BB and their memory problems.
    On a Blackberry, Application Memory = Storage.

    RAM = RAM

    Your blackberry storm is low on Application Memory, that's why it's deleting the calendar events. If that was all stored permanently in RAM, then they'd delete everytime you reboot the phone... RAM is volatile storage, sir...
    04-16-11 01:49 AM
  13. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    So how does the Mac handle this? I'm a PC user and have habit of loading a billion windows in different applications. I think the PC handles this by going to page files on the HDD and gradually bogging down to the point where I get annoyed, and start shutting things down or rebooting. Is this what the Mac does?
    Not very practical on a tablet, right? (caching to the flash memory, unless it were a full SSD?). What would be a nice user-friendly intutive way of guiding user behavior so that they don't overwhelm the finite amount of DRAM? This is what RIM needs to address IMO.
    PCs these days ship with 3GB or more RAM, and typically have almost 2.5GB free after a fresh boot. They don't really have to page much unless you running some really intense applications (CAD, Modeling, High end Games/MMORPGs, Photoshop, Video/Audio Editing, Encoding Media, etc.).
    04-16-11 01:51 AM
  14. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    Takes a pic huh? Your understanding of the multitasking of iOS is amazing. lol The apps don't close homey... if they did, pushed updates and other functionality of those apps wouldn't work while in the background. But of course, let's just overlook that fact.

    In the end, I don't think it really matters because the two major factors the PB was supposed to excel in will shift to the bottom of the list.

    Flash = People have already said they'd probably turn it off to help browser speed when not needed.
    Active Multitasking = Has memory limitations.

    What's left?
    iOS doesn't even multi-task most 3rd party apps cooperatively (i.e. Windows 3.1). It's multi-tasking is largely comparable to DOS shells "multi-tasking" apps. Once that app is in the background, it's tombstoned - as in dead, not running... at all. Some apps are allowed background tasks for the purpose of things like audio streaming (i.e. stuff like Pandora Internet Radio, etc.), but most apps basically cease to function once they are backgrounded... They don't fully closed, but they're as good as closed in 99% of situations due to the way the OS handles "multitasking" (which really isn't multitasking at all, TBQH).

    iOS multi-tasking is locked down similar to WP7's (a little less, but come "Mango" it will become the most locked down OS in multi-tasking terms... again). Certain services are allowed to multitask, along with stock/apple apps, but that's about it.

    Notifications in iOS has nothing to do with multi-tasking. The app doesn't have to be running for you to get push notifications. Those don't come from the app, they come from Apple's push servers similar to push notifications in most other platforms (C2DM, WP7 Push Notifications, and Push Notifications through RIM's servers to a Blackberry). Even if you reboot your iOS device and never start up Facebook, you can still get the notifications because the data goes from Facebooks Servers to Apple's Push Servers, and the Push Servers send a Push Notification to your phone which triggers a visual UI Notification pop-up.

    I'm unsure how many applications on iOS are allowes to do things like download data in the background, but on OSes like Blackberry and Android a Push Notification can trigger a background update for an application similar to the way old Java IM applications used encoded MMS messages to trigger background updates during IM conversations (which is why you needed an MMS plan for them). I'm pretty sure even after you get a notification on iOS apps like Facebook have to refresh if they were backgrounded/not running, but I'll check my sister's iPhone next time I go there just to be sure :P

    Flash was never a big advantage to people "in the know." There are those of us who have been enjoying flash on mobile devices (Flash Lite and then Full Flash) for basically years now. Flash is a CPU/Battery Hog, A security nightmare, bloated/buggy as ****, and degrates browser performance factorably. Also, Flash Ads are way too damn prevalent... The user experience is terrible when you had ads popping up in your face all the time...

    Multitasking is good in theory but on mobile devices the need to multitask preemptively in third party application just isn't that high. Apple/Microsoft took a decent route with that and Microsoft's changes in Mango will take it further and make it a lot more usable... In addition to memory issues, multitasking also degrades battery life, especially full-on preemptive multitasking...

    It will be very interesting to see what the performance and battery life is like when they release a playbook with a cell radio in it (and GPS, if the WiFi Playbook doesn't have one).
    Last edited by N8ter; 04-16-11 at 02:11 AM.
    04-16-11 02:04 AM
  15. edyts's Avatar
    I'm voting for a video that tests how many apps and browser tabs one can have open before the PB chokes. You can even do it up on your 50" TV so people can see it easier.
    Yep you sure can, no dongle required. You can do the same test and see how many flash sites it takes to crash it also. People are right you are a negative moderator i read your crap all the time, wish i could buy a dongle to get rid of you.
    jasonvan9 and Jake Storm like this.
    04-16-11 05:01 AM
  16. tumer's Avatar
    Civic seriously you got to stop really!!!!
    Do you do it on purpose ????
    Everything you say is negative every thing really you should know better how old are you actually that's rude to ask let me change the question
    Have you been to the prom????
    04-16-11 05:09 AM
  17. beebeeman's Avatar
    Or one or two apps and a couple of tabs open...its a shame because this is one of the most hyped features and it seems like 1 gig of RAM might not be enough for "true multitasking".

    Users shouldnt have to evict programs themselves, Apple and Google both realized this.

    Another moaner who buys stuff for hype. Who cares what apple does?
    04-16-11 05:16 AM
  18. snuci's Avatar
    I can't believe people here are discussing memory management and trying to school QNX on how to do multitasking. QNX has run Unix on a number of chipsets for a number of years. With an impending launch, think of all the bloated software and unoptimized code that's getting thrown in right now to have something ready. It's like 100 trains coming into a train station with one track.

    As Kevin states, in a few days, it got better already. It will continue to get better as they streamline code. Once things start settling down, I'm sure they will reflect on how they built some of the application layer to the OS and optimize and maybe even re-engineer it.

    This is 1.0 folks. It's not perfect and there will be incremental changes. Since the reviewers had a week with it, there were three updates and another yesterday. There will probably be more before the final release that is the update that everyone will have to take.

    Let's take it easy until we actually see the final released product. As soon as that happens, then you can ***** and moan all you want.
    04-16-11 05:50 AM
  19. beebeeman's Avatar
    I'm voting for a video that tests how many apps and browser tabs one can have open before the PB chokes. You can even do it up on your 50" TV so people can see it easier.
    I'm voting for a video showing how you are stripped from a moderator status for silly comments.
    04-16-11 06:13 AM
  20. Skeevecr's Avatar
    iOS has multiple ways of handling "multi-tasking", most of which are fast app switching, or pausing as you put it. Tasks can still finish while you move away from the app, but once said task is finished the app enters its saved state and stays there until switched back to it, or gets purged by the OS if too many apps are open and the app hasnt been used in some time (android does this as well).
    Can you name any apps that will actually complete a download if you use the clunky multitasking bar to swap to another app as none of the magazine apps, file browsers etc that I have tried do that and you are forced to take the productivity hit of not multitasking and then you have plenty of apps that forget their previous state as soon as you switch away from them e.g. even the apple remote doesn't remember where you were in the app and forces you to go back through to the section you were in once again.

    Apple did plenty of things right with the ipad, but their clunky and bolted-on system of multitasking was not one of them.
    04-16-11 06:51 AM
  21. Skeevecr's Avatar
    If the Moto Xoom had given these memory errors in the review people would have laughed their arses off at it...

    Why all the excuses/justifications?

    Everytime there's a negative with a RIM device, it seems like a whole horde of people flock to the thread to state they actually prefer it that way...
    Maybe they are just trying to balance out the usual suspects who will rush to this site as soon as they have the slightest thing to complain about devices they do not own or have any intention of owning?
    04-16-11 06:53 AM
  22. infamyx's Avatar
    Another moaner who buys stuff for hype. Who cares what apple does?


    Too bad i didnt even buy an iPad 2, my gf got one for the both of us. I have no reason to dump 600 bucks on one when i have a 2 year old macbook that is much more powerful (which i also didnt buy, she gave it to me after blowing 1700 on a MBP...IDGAF since she aint burnin my money) and capable.

    So, why are you buying a Playbook, its not because of the "hype" built off the internet is it?

    Can you name any apps that will actually complete a download if you use the clunky multitasking bar to swap to another app as none of the magazine apps, file browsers etc that I have tried do that and you are forced to take the productivity hit of not multitasking and then you have plenty of apps that forget their previous state as soon as you switch away from them e.g. even the apple remote doesn't remember where you were in the app and forces you to go back through to the section you were in once again.

    Apple did plenty of things right with the ipad, but their clunky and bolted-on system of multitasking was not one of them.
    All core apps, Skyfire, weatherbug, uploading or downloading an image off Photobucket (after the image is done, the app resets though which is annoying)

    As for your comment on the remote, it doesnt keep an active live connection to the computer, why should it, its burning battery life for zero reason and takes a second to pick right back up once you open the app back (i just tested this out, i never use my mac and iPad at the same time)

    Again the multi-tasking is based off the APIs Apple gave to developers, if they are too lazy to utilize them for atleast fast app switching, that's their prerogative. While Android has a few more APIs to use which gives it even more multitasking capability beyond iOS, it is no different.

    If it were a broken system, there wouldn't be 3 prominent OSs using this same exact method.
    04-16-11 08:02 AM
  23. meltbox360's Avatar
    TROLOLOLOLOLOLOL oh you guys are funny.

    ZOMG IT ONLY HAZ A 500 mB RAAAMMMMz LEftTTTT FUR TEH APPZ OH NOEZ!1! MY IPAD HAZ SUPER BETTER MEMORIESS R1M N0oB!!!!!!11!!

    Now anyone but me see a problem with anyone faulting there being "just" 500mb left ONLY for apps while os runs in its (seemingly bloated) 500mb of memory. No no, wait I'm wrong the iPad's OS uses 0.0mb of ram using magic memory from the ether that that wizard Steve has tapped into
    Last edited by Meltbox360; 04-16-11 at 11:54 AM.
    04-16-11 11:52 AM
  24. c0rinne's Avatar
    If you listen to the cb podcast, Kevin said that it was much improved after RIM pushed out another update.
    04-16-11 12:03 PM
  25. meltbox360's Avatar
    They really should have waited and released reviews 2 days before launch because this software is really still heavily under development from what we're hearing.
    04-16-11 12:15 PM
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