05-27-11 07:53 AM
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  1. xandermac's Avatar
    I hope not. If people think the initial reviews were bad just imagine. On the other side there are the regular blackberry users that do pay for BIS service who would be irate if PlayBook users got it for free.

    actually given the way RIM works, it wouldn't surprise me to see them doing that. It is a BlackBerry tablet after all.
    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-25-11 04:25 PM
  2. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
    I hope not. If people think the initial reviews were bad just imagine. On the other side there are the regular blackberry users that do pay for BIS service who would be irate if PlayBook users got it for free.
    I believe you CAN already register for the BIS for free. They'll probably use that. I'm not too bothered, I get it included in my contract already. Data costs the same whether it's BIS or iPhone. The thing is, the BIS you register for for free only works over WiFi I believe. But others can correct me if I'm wrong.
    05-25-11 04:29 PM
  3. lnichols's Avatar
    I hope not. If people think the initial reviews were bad just imagine. On the other side there are the regular blackberry users that do pay for BIS service who would be irate if PlayBook users got it for free.



    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I believe that they already said that the native e-mail shown at BBW was integrated with BIS/BES. Even though some may not like it, this is what will allow them to be deployed in more secure environments to get e-mail where Apple and Android can not be deployed. Will also allow them to be remotely managed from the BES.
    05-25-11 05:01 PM
  4. xandermac's Avatar
    Rim have revenue sharing with carriers for bis. Do you think playbook bis will be free for non blackberry users?

    I believe that they already said that the native e-mail shown at BBW was integrated with BIS/BES. Even though some may not like it, this is what will allow them to be deployed in more secure environments to get e-mail where Apple and Android can not be deployed. Will also allow them to be remotely managed from the BES.
    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-25-11 05:03 PM
  5. xandermac's Avatar
    Here is why I ask. If they give bis away for free to PlayBook users it might cause carriers to question their revenue sharing model for all blackberry users.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-25-11 05:07 PM
  6. lnichols's Avatar
    Rim have revenue sharing with carriers for bis. Do you think playbook bis will be free for non blackberry users?



    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    RIM would need to setup a BIS for Wifi only Playbooks that isn't tied to a carrier. Maybe tie it playbook.blackberry.net or something similar give the people an e-mail address that would be some free advertising. I could see them doing this and giving the service away for free. Carrier 4g models could be tied to the carrier BIS. I don't know exactly how they plan on doing it, and really don't care, but they are going to tie it in with BIS/BES, and I believe that everything is ready to go and they are waiting on the Crypto module for the Playbook to finish up with FIPS approval and as soon as that happens then they will release it in a software update.
    05-25-11 05:16 PM
  7. Snick Snack's Avatar
    RIM would need to setup a BIS for Wifi only Playbooks that isn't tied to a carrier. Maybe tie it playbook.blackberry.net or something similar give the people an e-mail address that would be some free advertising. I could see them doing this and giving the service away for free. Carrier 4g models could be tied to the carrier BIS. I don't know exactly how they plan on doing it, and really don't care, but they are going to tie it in with BIS/BES, and I believe that everything is ready to go and they are waiting on the Crypto module for the Playbook to finish up with FIPS approval and as soon as that happens then they will release it in a software update.
    They could be doing a native email as a "lite" BIS meaning that it may not be as heavily encrypted as it would be with a paid BIS thru Carrier service. This way they can protect their carrier business but still offer native email to non bb users via a playbook.net address. That would make sense and the delay could be the crypto module which probably still has to go through an approval process. Thus you can have a dedicated pb address and then rout in your other email address to the app.

    I think it would still have to be somehow routed through RIM servers in one form or another. From everything I've read about BB that is how they like to design and control their software security.

    Perhaps with the PB native email it may be designed that if used in the middle east the governments can monitor the mails going through it because it will be wi-fi based whereas a hand held devise doesn't give those government that option, thus still protecting carriers interest in their handsets.

    Not sure if that sounds convoluted or not, but I think if I was RIM and with their business belief of "security" that's how I would address the issue.
    Last edited by Snick Snack; 05-25-11 at 05:49 PM.
    05-25-11 05:40 PM
  8. Snick Snack's Avatar
    I believe you CAN already register for the BIS for free. They'll probably use that. I'm not too bothered, I get it included in my contract already. Data costs the same whether it's BIS or iPhone. The thing is, the BIS you register for for free only works over WiFi I believe. But others can correct me if I'm wrong.
    BIS always through your carrier as part of your BB package.

    BIS is sent to your carrier's servers routed through BB servers fully encrypted and delivered to the receipient of message. Essentially it goes through two sets of servers becoming heavily encrypted in the process and hard to break once intercepted. Same as if you put a password security on your BB. That's a 128 encrption activated, currently the same type of encryption used for banking transactions on line. My carrier rep tells me that is one of the best protection anybody can put on their BB phone. Once it's on a person only has X amount of chance to guess it then the BB will self wiped and will not and cannot be reactivated.

    BIS is not available for any handheld devices other then BBs because it is a Blackberry Internst Service.
    05-25-11 05:48 PM
  9. lnichols's Avatar
    That would make sense and the delay could be the crypto module which probably still has to go through an approval process.
    It is almost through the process. It is pending review now which means that NIST just has to review the paperwork/test results, approve it and issue a FIPS certificate. NIST is slow and unpredictable. That is why I'm almost certain RIM has said this vague "available summer" and why the e-mail, which we've seen working at BBW and appears to be done, is being delayed. They want to have it BES corporate e-mail certified and ready from instant it is available. Given what I've been told about other products from other manufacturers in the process and expected availability, they could have approval within a few weeks.
    05-25-11 05:55 PM
  10. shootsscores's Avatar
    People complain about native email, calendar, etc. I own a Bold and the bridging to the PB is not only convenient but robust. I have "native" email.

    BTW, the phone part of the equation is rock solid. Remember all you little leaguers, BB is the best communications system on the planet and remains so.
    Last edited by shootsscores; 05-25-11 at 07:23 PM.
    05-25-11 07:19 PM
  11. lnichols's Avatar
    You need to ask? Native email, calendar and contacts. What good is a portable device if it has to be attached to another portable device in order to function? RIM is trying to make an ecosystem out of their BB by forcing the PlayBook to be tethered to a BB in order to function. Dedicated BB users are happy with this while the general public is confused.

    When Jobs returned to Apple he brought with him a ten year plan: The Digital Hub. This started with the iMac (i=internet), then iTunes, iPod, iPod Store, iPhone, and iPad. iTunes is the brain of the Digital Hub.

    What does RIM have? A few stand alone products that have no synergy whatsoever.
    OK. So MMS not being on original iPhone is a "feature", and native e-mail and PIM on the Playbook is a function. Sounds like selective interpretation, but whatever.

    RIM will have native e-mail as soon as the certifications are there to connect it to the secure eco-system they have created. If you add a weak link then the whole system suffers. If they had offered native people would have wanted it immediately on BES. So they implemented the bridge as a workaround for there core base until the Playbook's crypto module is fips approved with BES. Should come through soon. Thats the difference between a business/government oriented platform and a consumer one that doesn't have to worry about these certs.

    Oh and every Blackberry talks with the RIM NOC, so they have a hub in place.
    05-25-11 07:57 PM
  12. jvictor77's Avatar
    OK. So MMS not being on original iPhone is a "feature", and native e-mail and PIM on the Playbook is a function. Sounds like selective interpretation, but whatever.

    RIM will have native e-mail as soon as the certifications are there to connect it to the secure eco-system they have created. If you add a weak link then the whole system suffers. If they had offered native people would have wanted it immediately on BES. So they implemented the bridge as a workaround for there core base until the Playbook's crypto module is fips approved with BES. Should come through soon. Thats the difference between a business/government oriented platform and a consumer one that doesn't have to worry about these certs.

    Oh and every Blackberry talks with the RIM NOC, so they have a hub in place.
    Couldn't have put it better myself!
    05-25-11 08:02 PM
  13. sportline's Avatar

    BTW, the phone part of the equation is rock solid. Remember all you little leaguers, BB is the best communications system on the planet and remains so.
    true. I can take pictures and bbm it right away to any contact, instantly.
    But then few years ago gmail is not pushed. Now it is. Yahoo will probably pushed very soon. Security is not really an issue for bis/general population. So bbm is the only stand out comparative advantage of bb.

    Palm was pda pioneer back then. It vanished only in few years time, one software platform change, and bad manufacturing quality. No one would think it will went turtle, sold for only a billion.

    Rim got to evolve with time. Everybody else is moving at breakneck speed, evolving, improving, and expanding customer base. Tough war.
    05-25-11 08:36 PM
  14. s219's Avatar
    P.S. I make a living as a software developer, and so far, AIR / Playbook has been the best development experience I've ever had. And yes, I've developed for iOS (Xcode sucks, and so does Objective-C in my opinion). Give it time, the apps for PB are going to get better and better as time goes on
    I'd be curious to know what you didn't like about Xcode and Obj-C -- we have developed for Android, WP7, and iOS, and think Apple's SDK is the best (Microsoft is a close second). Personally, I have coded in everything from FORTRAN to Javascript, and I don't really have an allegiance to language (nor would I want to, since technologies change all the time and you have to be ready to adapt). Obj-C seems OK to me.

    Given past experiences with Adobe, we're not touching their stuff with a ten foot pole. Half the widgets and controls in the Air SDK look like crap anyhow. It's like they can't even figure out how to anti-alias graphics, and this from the company that puts out photoshop.
    05-25-11 09:35 PM
  15. shootsscores's Avatar
    iOS can be hacked in 20.14 seconds and the iPad2 looks quite stupid when used as a phone. Does the iPad have to be held a certain way to make calls?
    05-25-11 11:12 PM
  16. Snick Snack's Avatar
    So you think MMS is more important that basic email, contacts and calendars?



    The business security story is over. Every major corporation has their own secure servers in place (along with the capability of remote wipe thanks to iOS). There is no need for anyone to receive emails through RIM's server system. Unix has been used in governments for decades because if its multi-user capability. No one has been able create a self-executing virus in any Mac OS (or iOS) device.

    Again, accepting RIM's decision to require a BB to tether to a tablet is not only silly, but defeats the whole purpose of a tablet.

    But as long as there are people that buy into it, then RIM has a chance to see 2014.
    I worked very d** hard for my credit rating and would not want anybody poking around in my computer stealing my identity. MAC OS is not secure no matter what you might think and I will never trust it's secure.
    05-26-11 12:31 AM
  17. ichat's Avatar
    I think this is due to the new release of the tablet. The tablet is only 1 month old! Give developers time to develop. An average decent app takes 1 and a half to 2 and a half months to develop. Give the people time. Check the App World in 2 months it most likely will be explosive. I remember the iOS app store at release. It took 2-3 months for nice games to come. So its just a matter of time
    jajano likes this.
    05-26-11 05:18 AM
  18. Username5300's Avatar

    Rim got to evolve with time. Everybody else is moving at breakneck speed, evolving, improving, and expanding customer base. Tough war.
    They will never move at breakneck speeds, their bread and butter is the Corporate world and keeping it secure. If they move ahead with anything then they make sure it will not effect the corporate world and their customers.
    05-26-11 06:51 AM
  19. sportline's Avatar
    I think this is due to the new release of the tablet. The tablet is only 1 month old! Give developers time to develop. An average decent app takes 1 and a half to 2 and a half months to develop. Give the people time. Check the App World in 2 months it most likely will be explosive. I remember the iOS app store at release. It took 2-3 months for nice games to come. So its just a matter of time
    time, and only time will tell. 16th of june or september, or everywhere in between.
    but apps will be more related to sdk release isn't it?
    05-26-11 06:53 AM
  20. lnichols's Avatar
    So you think MMS is more important that basic email, contacts and calendars?



    The business security story is over. Every major corporation has their own secure servers in place (along with the capability of remote wipe thanks to iOS). There is no need for anyone to receive emails through RIM's server system. Unix has been used in governments for decades because if its multi-user capability. No one has been able create a self-executing virus in any Mac OS (or iOS) device.

    Again, accepting RIM's decision to require a BB to tether to a tablet is not only silly, but defeats the whole purpose of a tablet.

    But as long as there are people that buy into it, then RIM has a chance to see 2014.
    Yes MMS was more important in a phone in 2007 than e-mail. Playbook is targeted at BB users first and the capabilities for e-mail and the like are there now and secure via the bridge. Security is much more than remote wiping ability. Oh and I use Macs and I hate Windows so I'm in now way an Apple hater, but I also work in environments and places where security is important and Apple has been unable to get the necessary certs even though they have been trying to get them.
    05-26-11 06:58 AM
  21. Username5300's Avatar
    Yes MMS was more important in a phone in 2007 than e-mail. Playbook is targeted at BB users first and the capabilities for e-mail and the like are there now and secure via the bridge. Security is much more than remote wiping ability. Oh and I use Macs and I hate Windows so I'm in now way an Apple hater, but I also work in environments and places where security is important and Apple has been unable to get the necessary certs even though they have been trying to get them.
    I will agree on the Apple part and not being able to get certs, but the email over MMS **** no, maybe on a consumer end MMS.
    05-26-11 07:03 AM
  22. sportline's Avatar
    i can't remember the last time using mms. is people still using mms nowadays?
    05-26-11 07:10 AM
  23. xandermac's Avatar
    If that were true they wouldn't have sold any iPhones and RIM would have stayed in the lead!. The only "important" feature missing from the original iPhone was native apps, web apps didn't cut it and even though Apple fought it they realized that they had to allow native development, and look what happened, at the expense of everyone else.

    Yes MMS was more important in a phone in 2007 than e-mail.
    05-26-11 07:51 AM
  24. lnichols's Avatar
    I will agree on the Apple part and not being able to get certs, but the email over MMS **** no, maybe on a consumer end MMS.
    If that were true they wouldn't have sold any iPhones and RIM would have stayed in the lead!. The only "important" feature missing from the original iPhone was native apps, web apps didn't cut it and even though Apple fought it they realized that they had to allow native development, and look what happened, at the expense of everyone else.
    2007 people. iPhone was a consumer device and even dumb phones had MMS then. I think most smart phones then could copy and paste too. Point is the iPhone had its flaws and shortcomings at release, and didn't have an app base either and it took almost a year for that to start growing.

    Also I remember times back in either 2008 or 2009 when the Blackberry Curve was outselling the iPhone and was the number one selling smartphone in the world. Times change and RIM didn't innovate and they are paying for it now. But the Tablet OS is obviously superior to iOS in terms of power/capabilities and the UI is slick. Native e-mail and PIM will be there soon and have all the certs needed for anyone that could only use a Blackberry to now be able to use a Playbook.
    05-26-11 08:48 AM
  25. xandermac's Avatar
    2007 people. iPhone was a consumer device and even dumb phones had MMS then. I think most smart phones then could copy and paste too. Point is the iPhone had its flaws and shortcomings at release, and didn't have an app base either and it took almost a year for that to start growing.
    I remember the fights online very well, I bought the iphone on the 3rd day (missed the lines ). Fact is, mms didn't make a hill of beans difference. The 1st iphone didn't sell well because it was full price with a 2 year contract. That was its biggest fault. It took off once the 3g released and carriers subsidized it, it still didn't have mms then but it sold like crazy. Mms just wasn't a big deal when the phone as a whole was compared to other "smartphones" on the market at the time. Sure, they could mms but everything else they did paled in comparison to the iphone. Frankly we wouldn't have the phones we now have if apple hadn't released the iphone, it changed the entire landscape even without mms.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-26-11 09:25 AM
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