03-06-12 12:08 AM
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  1. TBone4eva's Avatar
    I'm sorry, but the scale appears to be too heavily on the developer's side where as it should be on the customer's side. I understand and respect the developer's point of view, but if I paid for an app, I should be able to review it however I want. I earned that as a paying customer. With all due respect, if you don't like that, no one is forcing you to submit apps to App World.

    I understand that a review that just says "This app sucks!" is not useful to you as a developer, but again it should be the customer's right to make that review if they want. Whoever is rubberstamping the denials needs to stop. The review process is never going to be completely fair (just ask eBay), but RIM should side with the customer and not just rubberstamp denials. It seems very easy to get on this "auto-deny" list if many developers are employing these tactics. Is the customer even notified that they are on this list?

    What I would prefer is some kind of a rebuttal system. So, if the developer doesn't like a review, they can write a rebuttal that could be seen by all. There would be a timelimit of maybe 72 - 96 hours where that review, while viewable, would not count against the overall score for the app. The customer would then be notified of the rebuttal and have an opportunity to either adjust or remove the review. If the customer doesn't respond, RIM could auto-deny the review or if the customer refuses to adjust or remove the review, RIM could be final arbitrator and accept or deny the review. Obviously this would create more overhead for RIM, but rubberstamping denials is wrong and not a long-term solution either.
    Last edited by TBone4eva; 03-05-12 at 04:21 PM.
    fanatical likes this.
    03-05-12 04:19 PM
  2. peter9477's Avatar
    TBone4eva, I think relatively few developers would disagree with you on any of that (provided it is a level playing field amongst all developers.)

    We've asked for things like the rebuttal, an end to rubber-stamped denials, and many other reasonable suggestions. So far the best answer we've had from RIM about any of them is simply along the lines of "We're considering your suggestions and are working on improvements for future releases.". I think developers probably have remarkably little influence with RIM on this matter, at least us little guys.

    I suggest users contact RIM through various channels, and continue to raise the matter especially when they see particular egregious examples of the problems, and make it clear that greater trust in App World ratings and reviews would directly contribute to increased app purchases by you. That's probably the only thing that would really carry any weight.
    03-05-12 05:09 PM
  3. BBThemes's Avatar
    What I would prefer is some kind of a rebuttal system. So, if the developer doesn't like a review, they can write a rebuttal that could be seen by all. There would be a timelimit of maybe 72 - 96 hours where that review, while viewable, would not count against the overall score for the app. The customer would then be notified of the rebuttal and have an opportunity to either adjust or remove the review. If the customer doesn't respond, RIM could auto-deny the review or if the customer refuses to adjust or remove the review, RIM could be final arbitrator and accept or deny the review. Obviously this would create more overhead for RIM, but rubberstamping denials is wrong and not a long-term solution either.
    that is a valid point i agree, but in all fairness, if its a `please reply to me` type review (there are many of these out there tbh) thats really something the dev should be emailed by the customer. i mean a review is a review, its not a comments section for interaction for the dev, each dev has to have a support email for just that purpose.

    maybe i see it a lil from the `other side` as a dev (but also a consumer) but if your after interaction, hit the email/forums/twitter (if the dev is on those medias) as thats the best way.because the time limit would mean devs will always be having to check for reviews and such, which in my case with 100 items isnt exactly gonna be a ten second job. however if someone hits that email button, i have it on me BB right then.

    like i say, i agree and disagree, sadly i think thats the way this will always stay if im honest, as there will always be that balance between dev and consumer, which might be tricky to keep.
    03-05-12 05:13 PM
  4. papped's Avatar
    The alternative systems aren't necessarily any better...

    Android marketplace is flooded with crap comments and just straight wrong reviews. People can also pad reviews just as easily (positive or negative). You don't know how to activate a 3rd party keyboard because you don't understand how the required process works in android (it has nothing to do with the app itself) so you give the keyboard app 0 stars x 100 users... That's complete crap.

    Regardless, this topic keeps popping up every few weeks... It's basically always been like this. Nothing changed recently...
    03-05-12 05:20 PM
  5. yorkshireman2's Avatar
    I read this thread with interest as I have suspected for a long time that the review system on App World is seriously flawed.

    RIM need to get a grip of this kind of thing as it reflects badly on App World and the software available on it.

    That said, App World could do with some serious work as it rubbish in comparison to Apple's App Store. Basic things like only being able to see the latest 25 new titles. What a joke. If 40 titles get released in a day that means 15 of them have dropped straight of the list, and if you don't check in every day there is no way of knowing what you've missed. On the Apple App Store you can just keep clicking next to see the next 25 and the next and the next, etc.

    And it seems some developers are managing to get dozens, even hundreds of fake reviews. I'm sick of reading nonsense such as 'Awsome app. Its relly great!!!'. You then look at another app and it has exactly the same comment with exactly the same spelling mistakes.
    Mr Fatwa likes this.
    03-05-12 05:39 PM
  6. BBThemes's Avatar
    I read this thread with interest as I have suspected for a long time that the review system on App World is seriously flawed.

    RIM need to get a grip of this kind of thing as it reflects badly on App World and the software available on it.

    That said, App World could do with some serious work as it rubbish in comparison to Apple's App Store. Basic things like only being able to see the latest 25 new titles. What a joke. If 40 titles get released in a day that means 15 of them have dropped straight of the list, and if you don't check in every day there is no way of knowing what you've missed. On the Apple App Store you can just keep clicking next to see the next 25 and the next and the next, etc.

    And it seems some developers are managing to get dozens, even hundreds of fake reviews. I'm sick of reading nonsense such as 'Awsome app. Its relly great!!!'. You then look at another app and it has exactly the same comment with exactly the same spelling mistakes.
    ok, so my first point i guess would be to agree with papped, pretty much all review systems are lacking in some way shape or form across most platforms.

    what i would say to these `fake reviews` is its possible yes, but you have to have downloaded/paid for the app to be able to review it, so lets say theres 10 good reviews on a product you dont consider to be good, yes theres an outside chance that the dev got 10 diff people / BBID`s to buy/download the app, but thats an expense to be honest, its definitley something i wouldnt do because i may as well just burn 30% of my money instead lol. the alternative is other peoples expectations / criteria arent the same as yours (lets be fair none of us are alike). for example if you bought the $500 clock app cb kevin bought, how would you rate it? it does exactly (from what i could make of the review) what it says on the tin, therefore its technically 5 star, but i bet most people wouldnt agree with that.
    and thats the problem, ALL reviews are subjective so you can only ever use them as a rough guideline at best. and thats me speaking from both a dev and consumer point of view.
    03-05-12 06:39 PM
  7. papped's Avatar
    Why were memory managers the #1 rated apps for years even before Appworld existed? There was a large portion of customers that didn't know what they were talking about, didn't know what the apps really did, etc...

    There was no review removal option back then...
    03-05-12 06:53 PM
  8. KermEd's Avatar
    There are always scams too. There are groups (I haven't had to use one but heard about it) where you pay someone $1,000. They spend 500 on fake purchases to you with positive reviews. Then they pocket the other 500.

    Same groups operate on RIM, ios and Android.

    The system will always be a little broken - and it certainly isn't flawless! The best thing you can do is: Ask the developer for help. If no help is offered, post on CrackBerry and push for a refund.

    I think all the devs posting in here would prefer someone come for a refund than be unsatisfied .

    The other thing too is a lot of poor devs build broken barely working apps for free PlayBook and assign a price to it once it's approved.

    But every app has problems too . I wish we could get it better balanced. Not sure what all is changing in the next appworld service pack... But rim definitely knows there are areas for improvement.
    03-05-12 09:42 PM
  9. TBone4eva's Avatar
    that is a valid point i agree, but in all fairness, if its a `please reply to me` type review (there are many of these out there tbh) thats really something the dev should be emailed by the customer. i mean a review is a review, its not a comments section for interaction for the dev, each dev has to have a support email for just that purpose.

    maybe i see it a lil from the `other side` as a dev (but also a consumer) but if your after interaction, hit the email/forums/twitter (if the dev is on those medias) as thats the best way.because the time limit would mean devs will always be having to check for reviews and such, which in my case with 100 items isnt exactly gonna be a ten second job. however if someone hits that email button, i have it on me BB right then.

    like i say, i agree and disagree, sadly i think thats the way this will always stay if im honest, as there will always be that balance between dev and consumer, which might be tricky to keep.
    No, you would not have to keep checking for reviews. In my proposed system, whenever you saw a review you disagreed with, you could choose to rebutt that review, saying something like, "This is not a proper review, please adjust or remove and if you need support please email me at blah, blah, blah so I can help you." App World would then notify the customer by email that their review has been rebutted with your comments and your email address set as the auto-reply for support. This would then start a, let's call it "Time Out". During the time out, the review score would not count against your app's overall score though it would still be visable in the review area and would have your rebuttal comments. The customer would then have to respond either by adjusting the review, putting it on hold while receiving support or removing it. If the customer doesn't respond at all, let's say, within 3 days, the review is automatically removed. If they put the review on hold, you provide support and then the customer can adjust the review after. If they respond and feel their review is correct and you don't agree or you ultimately can't work things out, then RIM would have final say as to whether the review is removed or not.

    Is this practical? I don't know, it seems to have a lot of overhead, but it would give both sides an opportunity to work it out. The dev doesn't have to accept a useless review that lowers their app's score and possibly future revenue. They also hopefully get more meaningful reviews. Meanwhile, the customer can have their voice heard without having it removed with no notification. They can also get the support they are clearly looking for. Other customers can clearly see the interaction and thus can make a better decision as to whether the app is a smart purchase for them. The other cool thing about such a system, is that supposed the early version of your app lacked features and you got poor reviews becaust of it. Well, if you update your app, you can rebutt those reviews and have your customer re-review your updated app.
    03-05-12 09:53 PM
  10. BBThemes's Avatar
    There are always scams too. There are groups (I haven't had to use one but heard about it) where you pay someone $1,000. They spend 500 on fake purchases to you with positive reviews. Then they pocket the other 500.

    Same groups operate on RIM, ios and Android.
    wow, must say iv never heard of those groups. thats jus crazy

    No, you would not have to keep checking for reviews. In my proposed system, whenever you saw a review you disagreed with, you could choose to rebutt that review, saying something like, "This is not a proper review, please adjust or remove and if you need support please email me at blah, blah, blah so I can help you." App World would then notify the customer by email that their review has been rebutted with your comments and your email address set as the auto-reply for support. This would then start a, let's call it "Time Out". During the time out, the review score would not count against your app's overall score though it would still be visable in the review area and would have your rebuttal comments. The customer would then have to respond either by adjusting the review, putting it on hold while receiving support or removing it. If the customer doesn't respond at all, let's say, within 3 days, the review is automatically removed. If they put the review on hold, you provide support and then the customer can adjust the review after. If they respond and feel their review is correct and you don't agree or you ultimately can't work things out, then RIM would have final say as to whether the review is removed or not.

    Is this practical? I don't know, it seems to have a lot of overhead, but it would give both sides an opportunity to work it out. The dev doesn't have to accept a useless review that lowers their app's score and possibly future revenue. They also hopefully get more meaningful reviews. Meanwhile, the customer can have their voice heard without having it removed with no notification. They can also get the support they are clearly looking for. Other customers can clearly see the interaction and thus can make a better decision as to whether the app is a smart purchase for them. The other cool thing about such a system, is that supposed the early version of your app lacked features and you got poor reviews becaust of it. Well, if you update your app, you can rebutt those reviews and have your customer re-review your updated app.
    i do honestly see what your aiming for, and its kinda a decent theory, but the bottom line is if a customer needs help, that email link is there. as an example, i went to devcon, and wifi was poor at devcon (purely 2000 ppl is always gonna slow it down, an when ya give them all playbooks too.....) so checking reviews wasnt really something i could easily do. however i was still able to quickly and efficently reply to emails. now imagine if they had left a comment with an issue say on the monday, i didnt return home till thursday afternoon. now which customer experience is better, an email directly normally replied within a day, or having to wait for some time, and even then not knowing if the dev will even see your review.
    so then you sort them out, lets say summat is broke, and an update a week later fixes it, your now sat there waiting and hoping that customer comes back and changes their rating/review.

    It just seems far too complicated and time consuming for both consumer and developer (lets not forget `indie` devs that are say part time or self employed will have far less time to sort this) when firing an email, knowing its in their inbox, its just the fastest and most prefered method for all involved. also dont forget pics can be sent via email, which when trying to explain an issue, that can really help show what you mean.

    Like others have said though, this has been discussed in many previous threads (and they are all valid points btw), and will be discussed in new threads to come im sure.

    i`ll just leave you with this thought. login to mobihand, and you can rate/review ANY app (on any platform), without even the need to purchase/download. so i guess appworld could be worse
    03-05-12 10:47 PM
  11. anon(1035135)'s Avatar
    I've had a bad review deleted before. I wasn't a new "user" and frankly, the app didn't describe the actual functionality properly. But that being said, as a developer/programmer myself (even though I haven't developed for the Playbook yet) what type of testing is going on here? Are you all just testing on your own PB and submitting? If I left out important facts about the app in the description, or the app was buggy, I would leave the reviews, even if they were not satisfactory. A bit of honesty would be nice here as, to my knowledge, these apps are sort of submitted on the trust and honor basis. It's obvious after some of the apps I've tried that RIM isn't volunteering much time to test, and if the developers aren't doing much testing themselves and have the ability to delete accurate reviews to get more cash, then that is about as big of a travesty as this is a run-on sentence! Bottom line is, the ability to control your app reviews negates the integrity of the review process as a whole. My guess is, RIM is more interested in quantity than quality at the moment so they can rebuke the "no apps" claim you've heard from day 1.

    For those honest developers, no offense. And for those that are not, I hope your PB breaks... and your iPad.
    03-05-12 11:44 PM
  12. dugggggg's Avatar
    RIM could randomly solicit and select app reviewers from its huge list of eager beta testers. Every app would have several reviewers, anonymous to the developer. Each reviewer would review several apps---but they would all be similarly priced, so that overpriced ones could be more readily identified and rated appropriately. The collective reviews of each app---as well as each reviewer---could also be periodically reviewed, to ensure consistency and objectivity.
    03-06-12 12:01 AM
  13. KermEd's Avatar
    They also need two part communication. You guys (users) need a way to report non-working apps. Just saying.
    rjedge54 likes this.
    03-06-12 12:08 AM
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