05-29-12 09:49 AM
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  1. biggulpseh's Avatar
    A lot of what I would reply with (albeit maybe with a bit more tact) has been already stated by WinningWithLogic and app_Developer above. When I say "If RIM is banking on Cascades turning the PlayBook around without any additional and significant effort on their part, this effort too is doomed to fail" I mean that a UI toolkit alone is not the only significant problem that RIM is facing and it alone will not fix the situation with the PlayBook or anything RIM. It is a step in the right direction, but if RIM wants to turn it into a success they need to turn around the perception that has formed around their brand and the PlayBook. They need to aggressively push into the consumer market once again and make it lucrative for the developers to jump on the RIM bandwagon. They need to provide financial incentive to developers to produce applications for the PB platform. They need to market the crap out of the platform and back it up with solid performance. They are doing none of this right now. Cascades alone will not be the second coming for RIM without the right kind of backing.

    Oh and they also do not have time on their side...so the real question is, Cascades UI toolkit is here, but can RIM actually capitalize on it extremely quickly?
    I seriously don't understand how you guys still aren't understanding what I'm trying to say. They don't currently have a native UI framework. Without one, it doesn't matter how much incentive they give developers to make PlayBook or BlackBerry 10 apps. Luckily, Cascades is filling that gap.

    I don't know why you guys think I said Cascades is the only thing the ecosystem needs in order to succeed, because that would be absurd. But Cascades will be filling a HUGE gap.
    UrbanGlowCam likes this.
    04-16-12 12:28 PM
  2. middbrew's Avatar
    I would love a technical overview of why you believe Cascades is a differentiator. Do not skimp on the technical details and please refrain from wishy-washy stuff like "3D" and "animations" - ie. things you can do and have been demonstrated beautifully in pretty much every single other UI framework in many popular iOS and Android apps.

    To be clear as well, I'm not asking for a bullet point list pulled from a PPT. You have to explain what specific Cascades feature is unique by also showing that it is missing from iOS and/or Android.

    As a technical person with familiarity with all of the above, I can save you the trouble if you want and produce the list for you. It follows below:
    I'm not as familiar with app dev as you so I don't understand why this won't be a difference maker for RIM. If it makes it easier for apps to be constructed for the PB and BB10 phones why isn't it a difference maker so devs and make apps like they do for the other platforms?
    04-16-12 12:31 PM
  3. BuzzStarField's Avatar
    As a technical person with familiarity with all of the above, I can save you the trouble if you want and produce the list for you. It follows below:
    You missed an entry in your list. If Cascades does not introduce a uniquely distinctive BB10 look and feel then I would be supremely disappointed.
    04-16-12 12:32 PM
  4. dejanh's Avatar
    I seriously don't understand how you guys still aren't understanding what I'm trying to say. They don't currently have a native UI framework. Without one, it doesn't matter how much incentive they give developers to make PlayBook or BlackBerry 10 apps. Luckily, Cascades is filling that gap.

    I don't know why you guys think I said Cascades is the only thing the ecosystem needs in order to succeed, because that would be absurd. But Cascades will be filling a HUGE gap.
    I perfectly well understand what you are saying, but your post reads very deterministic about the future of the PB ecosystem. The comments that follow it have the same pattern as well. The truth is that this is just your (in my opinion somewhat overly optimistic) educated guess. It is not fact. Addition of a great UI toolkit is certainly an amazing step in the right direction. It however is not enough to solve the problems that RIM and the PB are facing. Not even close.

    PB is missing a UI toolkit - fact
    Cascades may fill that gap - possibly
    Cascades will turn around the PB ecosystem and bring in developers - assumption
    Last edited by dejanh; 04-16-12 at 12:37 PM.
    04-16-12 12:33 PM
  5. BuzzStarField's Avatar
    I'm not as familiar with app dev as you so I don't understand why this won't be a difference maker for RIM. If it makes it easier for apps to be constructed for the PB and BB10 phones why isn't it a difference maker so devs and make apps like they do for the other platforms?
    It is not a difference maker because other platforms already have UI frameworks. As "amazing" as Cascades might be, its proper classification in the scheme of things is "catch up".
    Innovatology likes this.
    04-16-12 12:36 PM
  6. WinningWithLogic's Avatar
    You missed an entry in your list. If Cascades does not introduce a uniquely distinctive BB10 look and feel then I would be supremely disappointed.
    I'll give you that
    04-16-12 12:37 PM
  7. Sith_Apprentice's Avatar
    PB is missing a UI toolkit - fact
    Cascades may fill that gap - possibly
    Cascades will turn around the PB ecosystem and bring in developers - assumption
    PB is missing a UI toolkit - fact
    Cascades may fill that gap - this is what is is designed to do. chances are better than average it will, and it cannot hurt (much) if the implementation is done correctly.
    Cascades will turn around the PB ecosystem and bring in developers - again, it cannot hurt. Cascades is highly unlikely to drive devs away, and can only serve as something to bring in devs. Will it be in numbers and quality of what RIM needs? only time will tell.
    UrbanGlowCam likes this.
    04-16-12 12:40 PM
  8. WinningWithLogic's Avatar
    Actually, and while I'm on a bit of a spree here as well there's something else I wanted to talk about - namely, platform support.

    What a lot of people don't realize is that a lot of the most popular iOS and Android applications today often aren't even built using the native frameworks and toolkits for the respective platforms.

    For example, some of the most popular iOS and Android games today are built using the Corona SDK and Cocos 2d. Developers also make use of frameworks like OpenFeint for social. Unity is a big game dev toolkit too, and they don't propertly support RIM like they do Android and iOS (Union vs fully open).

    There are hundreds of app and game dev frameworks out there today, and I can think of at least a good twenty that are immensely popular and do not support (and likely have zero intention to support) PB/BB10. Getting all these framework developers onside is equally important to getting the apps users want.

    What's interesting is that I follow a lot of these companies and their founders on twitter. They sparingly if ever talk about RIM, and when they do, it's not pretty (particularly Carlos, founder of Corona SDK).
    04-16-12 12:41 PM
  9. middbrew's Avatar
    It is not a difference maker because other platforms already have UI frameworks. As "amazing" as Cascades might be, its proper classification in the scheme of things is "catch up".
    As a catch up isn't that still a difference maker for RIM. without it they would still be dragging behind. I would say if it was a new thing for all IUs it would be a bigger thing, but for RIM it is a very big thing in order to catch up, thus a difference maker for RRIM.
    anon3969612 likes this.
    04-16-12 12:41 PM
  10. UrbanGlowCam's Avatar
    I perfectly well understand what you are saying, but your post reads very deterministic about the future of the PB ecosystem. The comments that follow it have the same pattern as well. The truth is that this is just your (in my opinion somewhat overly optimistic) educated guess. It is not fact. Addition of a great UI toolkit is certainly an amazing step in the right direction. It however is not enough to solve the problems that RIM and the PB are facing. Not even close.

    PB is missing a UI toolkit - fact
    Cascades may fill that gap - possibly
    Cascades will turn around the PB ecosystem and bring in developers - assumption
    I see what you're saying, but I also share a lot of the optimism biggulpseh is showing. When the NDK became more accessible to devs, we saw a pretty big surge of high quality games. If you look on App World now, I'd say there is a large collection of feature rich games now that weren't possible before. So we have all the Angry Birds, Cut the Ropes, Tofus, Call for Dutys, etc. I do think they could speed up the development in certain games they are behind on like Draw Something and Angry Birds Space. But they seem a lot better off now than they used to be. This will only improve when BB10 smartphones are released and there is more incentive for developers.

    I don't really hear about the lack of games anymore, since we now have it. Now I mostly hear people asking where Netflix, Skype, Twitter, LinkedIn, etc. are. I feel like a majority of these missing apps will benefit from the Cascades UI framework. If I were a developer, I'd be waiting for it instead of jumping to AIR. For example, I think Facebook would be LOT better with Cascades vs. AIR that it uses now.

    We can't be certain devs are just waiting for Cascades to come, but I have a feeling the big guys have already been working with it in a closed beta system. Who knows, maybe we'll be surprised with some of these big name apps in two weeks at BlackBerry World. But I certainly agree that Cascades UI can only be beneficial to the platform. I just hope they're far along with it and it isn't offered in a limited way.
    sf49ers likes this.
    04-16-12 12:49 PM
  11. thatplaybookguy's Avatar
    i have great app ideas, just wish i knew someone to help er i mean do the coding. there will be apps, every platform to date started out slow... most other tablet users love the small crisp size of my pb as well as how light it is once i remove the case i have for it. apps will come. im happy for spectrum analyzer and the dj app. for now.... imagining the dj app in cascades....
    04-16-12 12:50 PM
  12. app_Developer's Avatar
    As a catch up isn't that still a difference maker for RIM. without it they would still be dragging behind. I would say if it was a new thing for all IUs it would be a bigger thing, but for RIM it is a very big thing in order to catch up, thus a difference maker for RRIM.
    It makes a difference for RIM, yes. However it doesn't differentiate RIM with respect to Microsoft or Apple or Google. They are simply catching up. Cascades 1.0 won't likely catch them up fully, but hopefully enough to allow us to build some cool apps while we wait for Cascades 2.0 and so on.

    None of us have seen the Cascades APIs and tools enough to do a point by point comparison with Microsoft, Apple, or Android. However, it completely beggars belief to think that RIM will suddenly and magically go from no UI framework to the best one in the whole market. If that were the case, why did they not give us Cascades when it was merely as good as all the others?
    dejanh and notfanboy like this.
    04-16-12 12:56 PM
  13. Sith_Apprentice's Avatar
    It makes a difference for RIM, yes. However it doesn't differentiate RIM with respect to Microsoft or Apple or Google. They are simply catching up. Cascades 1.0 won't likely catch them up fully, but hopefully enough to allow us to build some cool apps while we wait for Cascades 2.0 and so on.

    None of us have seen the Cascades APIs and tools enough to do a point by point comparison with Microsoft, Apple, or Android. However, it completely beggars belief to think that RIM will suddenly and magically go from no UI framework to the best one in the whole market. If that were the case, why did they not give us Cascades when it was merely as good as all the others?
    Cascades 1.0 will close the gap for RIM, and it may even surpass that and bring it level. But even if RIM were CLOSE with their UI framework it would be a very big thing for the Playbook. They need to get this out now and get to work on a meaningful upgrade of Cascades for the BB10 launch.
    sf49ers likes this.
    04-16-12 12:59 PM
  14. WinningWithLogic's Avatar
    Let me summarize this thread to date:

    biggulpseh: Guys, pretty soon that car you have with no tires is going to be AMAZING. Cars In Motion is going to be introducing AMAZING OMG SUPER-FAST TIRES coming up and you will be able to drive to all the places those other cool people hang out!

    People who know about cars and tires: Actually, the tires are just regular tires with nothing that seems particularly special about them. And also, that car is missing two doors, a steering wheel, and the brake pedal doesn't work so you still won't be able to drive it.

    Sith_Apprentice/biggulpseh: But having tires is better than having no tires! Getting tires is a big step forward for CIM!

    <Collective Observation>: Yes, but it's still a car you can't drive.

    END THREAD.
    balding1 and Gouk like this.
    04-16-12 01:01 PM
  15. notfanboy's Avatar
    I seriously don't understand how you guys still aren't understanding what I'm trying to say. They don't currently have a native UI framework. Without one, it doesn't matter how much incentive they give developers to make PlayBook or BlackBerry 10 apps. Luckily, Cascades is filling that gap.

    I don't know why you guys think I said Cascades is the only thing the ecosystem needs in order to succeed, because that would be absurd. But Cascades will be filling a HUGE gap.
    Because you said as much when you wrote the following in the original post. Which we are supposed to accept on "trust".

    Wondering why apps like Netflix and Skype and Kindle aren't on the platform yet? No Cascades yet. Trust me, those companies aren't going to invest tens of thousands of dollars into AIR or WebWorks development for the PlayBook when they can just wait for Cascades which will look way better anyways.
    dejanh likes this.
    04-16-12 01:04 PM
  16. Chinookman's Avatar
    I can see your point about thinking RIM should partner with someone else. I don't agree with it though. The part about hoping RIM dies? That's just stupid talk by a troll.



    Yes, mods, bans are needed for stuff like this.
    WOW so you don't like RIMM getting criticized so your solution is to ban criticism??

    Yeah kindah like they do in China? hang on a while and it will happen here as Huffpo and the LSM has the same attitude you do.

    YES! RIMM's pitiful performance has a large impact for me it impacts my 401 and Vanguard has not cut their losses with RIMM and switched over to AAPL.

    You may not like it but I'm not asking you to. I am sharing the larger picture other then just whining about so few apps. I am speaking of a sector performance of a publicly traded company that is failing miserably and no amount of apologetics will turn around company performance. Only RIMM executive leadership can turn it around.


    Here is Vanguards holdings:
    https://institutional.vanguard.com/V...tegy=436182222

    Here are some posts about that performance:
    Yahoo! Message Boards - Vanguard Capital Opportunity Adm - RIMM

    So folks butch up and take the good with the bad otherwise you are no different then the Apple fanboyz just the other side of the same coin.
    balding1 and ambarmetta like this.
    04-16-12 01:05 PM
  17. Sith_Apprentice's Avatar
    Let me summarize this thread to date:

    biggulpseh: Guys, pretty soon that car you have with no tires is going to be AMAZING. Cars In Motion is going to be introducing AMAZING OMG SUPER-FAST TIRES coming up and you will be able to drive to all the places those other cool people hang out!

    People who know about cars and tires: Actually, the tires are just regular tires with nothing that seems particularly special about them. And also, that car is missing two doors, a steering wheel, and the brake pedal doesn't work so you still won't be able to drive it.

    Sith_Apprentice/biggulpseh: But having tires is better than having no tires! Getting tires is a big step forward for CIM!

    <Collective Observation>: Yes, but it's still a car you can't drive.

    END THREAD.

    LOL funny but not entirely accurate. Currently the car has all the parts but no frame/body. Some of those parts are second rate, but they still work.
    UrbanGlowCam likes this.
    04-16-12 01:05 PM
  18. middbrew's Avatar
    It makes a difference for RIM, yes. However it doesn't differentiate RIM with respect to Microsoft or Apple or Google. They are simply catching up. Cascades 1.0 won't likely catch them up fully, but hopefully enough to allow us to build some cool apps while we wait for Cascades 2.0 and so on.

    None of us have seen the Cascades APIs and tools enough to do a point by point comparison with Microsoft, Apple, or Android. However, it completely beggars belief to think that RIM will suddenly and magically go from no UI framework to the best one in the whole market. If that were the case, why did they not give us Cascades when it was merely as good as all the others?
    I see and agree with what you are saying. I guess I was reading the previous posts saying Cascade would make a difference for RIM, not a difference for the industry. I hope you are right that as Cascade is advanced it will help RIM get on par with others.
    04-16-12 01:06 PM
  19. gregorylkelly's Avatar
    Let me summarize this thread to date:

    biggulpseh: Guys, pretty soon that car you have with no tires is going to be AMAZING. Cars In Motion is going to be introducing AMAZING OMG SUPER-FAST TIRES coming up and you will be able to drive to all the places those other cool people hang out!

    People who know about cars and tires: Actually, the tires are just regular tires with nothing that seems particularly special about them. And also, that car is missing two doors, a steering wheel, and the brake pedal doesn't work so you still won't be able to drive it.

    Sith_Apprentice/biggulpseh: But having tires is better than having no tires! Getting tires is a big step forward for CIM!

    <Collective Observation>: Yes, but it's still a car you can't drive.

    END THREAD.
    Seriously, this is the worst post I've ever seen on these forums. I can't believe you actually wasted the time to write this. It is completely illogical, unless of course I'm somehow "driving around and enjoying the ride on my car that you still can't drive."

    Sorry mods, but I have to say it......
    04-16-12 01:08 PM
  20. dejanh's Avatar
    Because you said as much when you wrote the following in the original post. Which we are supposed to accept on "trust".
    Bang on. That's what I am arguing in addition to trying to explain to people that much more than Cascades is needed to make the PB a success. Also, people need to understand that RIM future is hardly tied to the PB alone. They are failing on every front, and the PB happens to be one of the few items on the "must fix" list.
    04-16-12 01:10 PM
  21. middbrew's Avatar
    WOW so you don't like RIMM getting criticized so your solution is to ban criticism??

    Yeah kindah like they do in China? hang on a while and it will happen here as Huffpo and the LSM has the same attitude you do.

    YES! RIMM's pitiful performance has a large impact for me it impacts my 401 and Vanguard has not cut their losses with RIMM and switched over to AAPL.

    You may not like it but I'm not asking you to. I am sharing the larger picture other then just whining about so few apps. I am speaking of a sector performance of a publicly traded company that is failing miserably and no amount of apologetics will turn around company performance. Only RIMM executive leadership can turn it around.


    Here is Vanguards holdings:
    https://institutional.vanguard.com/V...tegy=436182222

    Here are some posts about that performance:
    Yahoo! Message Boards - Vanguard Capital Opportunity Adm - RIMM

    So folks butch up and take the good with the bad otherwise you are no different then the Apple fanboyz just the other side of the same coin.
    I don't mind RIM getting criticized. Re-read my post. I took offense at the person saying they hoped RIM would die. That's just trolling.
    Last edited by middbrew; 04-16-12 at 01:22 PM.
    04-16-12 01:10 PM
  22. Chinookman's Avatar
    I don't mind RIM getting criticized. I took offense at the person saying they hoped RIM would die.
    if by the statement "RIMM DIES" as in the company failing ..... Atari and Commodore will accept RIMM into the annals of history with open arms......hey no one here from RIMM ever posts or participates or supports its customers so what's the big deal.....


    then what of it...it's his opinion no more no less let him / her vent .....this too shall pass....
    04-16-12 01:23 PM
  23. dejanh's Avatar
    Let's try and lighten the mood in this thread a bit...here's some reading on Microsoft's push with Nokia and Windows phones.

    Windows Phone is great, so why aren't more people buying them? | ZDNet

    If you actually read that, you will see that there are some striking parallels between Microsoft's conundrum now and that of RIM in general. Difference is that RIM blew their chance to stay the leader and now has to double down and regain its stance. Both companies are fighting perception, and it is going to take some extreme effort to turn this around. No amount of amazing UI on any platform will make that happen on its own. Not with how entrenched iOS and Android are in today's smartphone market. I think that if RIM had the money to pay-off developers to develop for its platform much as Microsoft has done, they would very quickly have a winning formula. However, this is proving to be a problem for them, with good reason. Market has basically lost all confidence in RIM, so now they are fighting not only perception of consumers but also the market itself.
    Last edited by dejanh; 04-16-12 at 01:28 PM.
    Chinookman likes this.
    04-16-12 01:24 PM
  24. WinningWithLogic's Avatar
    Seriously, this is the worst post I've ever seen on these forums. I can't believe you actually wasted the time to write this. It is completely illogical, unless of course I'm somehow "driving around and enjoying the ride on my car that you still can't drive."

    Sorry mods, but I have to say it......
    You fail at reading comprehension. In the context of the discussion we were having (which you either didn't read, or didn't understand), driving is an analogy for having the top-tier apps mentioned by the OP.
    04-16-12 01:26 PM
  25. WinningWithLogic's Avatar
    Let's try and lighten the mood in this thread a bit...here's some reading on Microsoft's push with Nokia and Windows phones.

    Windows Phone is great, so why aren't more people buying them? | ZDNet

    If you actually read that, you will see that there are some striking parallels between Microsoft's conundrum now and that of RIM in general. Difference is that RIM blew their chance to stay the leader and now has to double down and regain its stance. Both companies are fighting perception, and it is going to take some extreme effort to turn this around. No amount of amazing UI on any platform will make that happen on its own. Not with how entrenched iOS and Android are in today's smartphone market. I think that if RIM had the money to pay-off developers to develop for it platform much as Microsoft has done, they would very quickly have a winning formula. However, this is proving to be a problem for them.
    +1 I'm super sad MS isn't doing better. There is one company that is absolutely nailing the developer platform. And the OS is fresh and intuitive.

    They deserve to be doing better. It shows you just how hard it is to compete in this market. Amazing platform, developer tools, devices, and they're even going huge with marketing (Lumia launch).

    This is why I'm a pessimist with respect to RIM. Microsoft is 10x the company RIM is in terms of being able to deliver OS, SW, etc.
    Last edited by WinningWithLogic; 04-16-12 at 01:30 PM.
    04-16-12 01:28 PM
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