05-29-12 09:49 AM
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  1. biggulpseh's Avatar
    Not buying any of this. RIMs effort at this point should be creating partnerships with Microsoft or Google for a new OS. RIM has no execution and I bet this new engine will be delayed for another year. I hope RIM dies.
    Oh.

    04-16-12 10:22 AM
  2. SCrid2000's Avatar
    Not buying any of this. RIMs effort at this point should be creating partnerships with Microsoft or Google for a new OS. RIM has no execution and I bet this new engine will be delayed for another year. I hope RIM dies.
    Then why the are you on a BlackBerry site troll?
    Mods, why can't you ban fools like this?
    04-16-12 10:24 AM
  3. BuzzStarField's Avatar
    Then why the are you on a BlackBerry site troll?
    Mods, why can't you ban fools like this?
    BluCheze does appear to violate the forum guidelines:

    http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...playbook-forum

    Especially this part:
    "...we have a zero tolerance policy toward individuals who come into the forums just to tear it apart. If you think the PlayBook sucks then try hanging out in your own forum instead. The BlackBerry PlayBook forum is dedicated to PlayBook enthusiasts - not PlayBook haters. If you're stopping by to talk smack and turn people away from the forum you will be asked to leave. "
    04-16-12 10:30 AM
  4. SFWriter's Avatar
    I am of the mind that there are far tooooooo many useless apps out in the App World today. I see this with both the other major platforms; apps that do nothing but make noise and not much more.

    Of course I would personally like to see a few specific apps developed for the PB that are currently making their way to iOS and Android. Apps that have long term uses and serve a function; but that said, in general I'm good with the current selection.

    Just because you can create an app does not mean you should create an app.


    Sent from my BlackBerry 9800 using Tapatalk
    Creaulx likes this.
    04-16-12 10:31 AM
  5. biggulpseh's Avatar
    Then why the are you on a BlackBerry site troll?
    Mods, why can't you ban fools like this?
    There's so many people here it makes my head spin. Do they have nothing better to do than come to a BlackBerry fan site and explain how they think RIM is bound to fail?

    When RIM turns things around I don't want these people to be able to hop on the bandwagon and instantly share in the success lol
    04-16-12 10:31 AM
  6. middbrew's Avatar
    Not buying any of this. RIMs effort at this point should be creating partnerships with Microsoft or Google for a new OS. RIM has no execution and I bet this new engine will be delayed for another year. I hope RIM dies.
    I can see your point about thinking RIM should partner with someone else. I don't agree with it though. The part about hoping RIM dies? That's just stupid talk by a troll.

    Then why the are you on a BlackBerry site troll?
    Mods, why can't you ban fools like this?
    Yes, mods, bans are needed for stuff like this.
    04-16-12 10:35 AM
  7. vlade31's Avatar
    So what you are saying is basically to wait...

    Just like we were supposed to wait after it launched..

    Just wait 60 days for native email...

    Just wait for OS 2.0...

    I understand your point but it took even Android gaining some market share before we started seeing big name apps. PB has a long way to go. RIM's development is so slow it's unbelievable. I wished Google or someone else had bought QNX. RIM doesn't deserve a good OS like QNX.
    04-16-12 10:42 AM
  8. Yankee495's Avatar
    I think they're here because they're tired of trying to sort through a zillion apps trying to find a simple tic-tac-toe that works and the rest of the web is just too boring without flash etc.
    04-16-12 11:00 AM
  9. biggulpseh's Avatar
    So what you are saying is basically to wait...

    Just like we were supposed to wait after it launched..

    Just wait 60 days for native email...

    Just wait for OS 2.0...

    I understand your point but it took even Android gaining some market share before we started seeing big name apps. PB has a long way to go. RIM's development is so slow it's unbelievable. I wished Google or someone else had bought QNX. RIM doesn't deserve a good OS like QNX.
    Ok... then move on. It's over for you. Buy a product from a different manufacturer and stop worrying about the PlayBook. It makes no sense to waste your time on an internet forum just getting your blood pressure up, which achieves nothing other than annoy BlackBerry fans who actually want RIM to succeed.

    I'm a 21 year-old student, I don't represent RIM in any way so why whine to me? I was merely educating people on the fact that the PlayBook doesn't have a Native UI framework which is a HUGE drawback of the ecosystem, and is one of the most glaring reasons as to why devs haven't bothered to/been able to develop for the PlayBook. A great one is coming, and hopefully this will turn things around for the PlayBook before the launch of BB10 phones.
    04-16-12 11:15 AM
  10. Sith_Apprentice's Avatar
    Ok... then move on. It's over for you. Buy a product from a different manufacturer and stop worrying about the PlayBook. It makes no sense to waste your time on an internet forum just getting your blood pressure up, which achieves nothing other than annoy BlackBerry fans who actually want RIM to succeed.

    I'm a 21 year-old student, I don't represent RIM in any way so why whine to me? I was merely educating people on the fact that the PlayBook doesn't have a Native UI framework which is a HUGE drawback of the ecosystem, and is one of the most glaring reasons as to why devs haven't bothered to/been able to develop for the PlayBook. A great one is coming, and hopefully this will turn things around for the PlayBook before the launch of BB10 phones.
    Very well said. There are two real choices here. Wait or do not wait. You purchased a product, and if it does not meet your needs/expectations you also have two options. Keep it or get rid of it. It should not bother anyone here what someone does with their own personal tablet. The OP was simply trying to educate, if you read the post great, if you didn't that's fine too. It still comes down to two options no matter which way you turn. Complaining on a public forum in a thread designed to educate people on what is coming. That is all.
    Willard814 likes this.
    04-16-12 11:22 AM
  11. dejanh's Avatar
    I hear you...but I don't see it as a scapegoat. I think WE see it as a scapegoat or excuse, because it doesn't give us what we instantaneously want.

    I don't think RIM is making excuses at this point...I think (respectfully) that most of us don't think about the issues of security, for one....and this is something that RIM built a worldwide reputation upon....we all want instant gratification, and the cost of that sometimes doesn't register for us. I am the first to say and admit that I want it all...RIGHT NOW...but, I am looking ahead to what RIM has not only done, but what is CAPABLE of...and they have the funds to pull it off.

    I think, at the end of the day...we will all be pleasantly surprised.....except for the trolls, that is...
    Well, I certainly hope that you are right. You have to admit though that it is pretty hard to have confidence in RIM to pull through after they have been making promises and missing them for a very long time now.

    Ok... then move on. It's over for you. Buy a product from a different manufacturer and stop worrying about the PlayBook. It makes no sense to waste your time on an internet forum just getting your blood pressure up, which achieves nothing other than annoy BlackBerry fans who actually want RIM to succeed.

    I'm a 21 year-old student, I don't represent RIM in any way so why whine to me? I was merely educating people on the fact that the PlayBook doesn't have a Native UI framework which is a HUGE drawback of the ecosystem, and is one of the most glaring reasons as to why devs haven't bothered to/been able to develop for the PlayBook. A great one is coming, and hopefully this will turn things around for the PlayBook before the launch of BB10 phones.
    This is my point exactly. Again there are ifs involved. While your piece was well written and informative, at the end of the day it is at best an educated guess. Too many variables still remain in this equation for it to be solved as simply as providing a solid UI toolkit. RIM is severely behind the game on the PB ecosystem front with not much incentive for developers to jump in or consumers to buy into especially with all of the bad press that has followed the PB for all of its lifespan, and that is something that will take a lot more effort than just a UI toolkit to correct. If RIM is banking on Cascades turning the PlayBook around without any additional and significant effort on their part, this effort too is doomed to fail.
    04-16-12 11:29 AM
  12. biggulpseh's Avatar
    This is my point exactly. Again there are ifs involved. While your piece was well written and informative, at the end of the day it is at best an educated guess. Too many variables still remain in this equation for it to be solved as simply as providing a solid UI toolkit. RIM is severely behind the game on the PB ecosystem front with not much incentive for developers to jump in or consumers to buy into especially with all of the bad press that has followed the PB for all of its lifespan, and that is something that will take a lot more effort than just a UI toolkit to correct. If RIM is banking on Cascades turning the PlayBook around without any additional and significant effort on their part, this effort too is doomed to fail.
    You're downplaying the significance of Cascades and RIM's commitment to their developers and ecosystem. Cascades is their differentiation to make it easy for devs to make great looking apps that perform very well using simple tools.

    I don't know what you mean by "If RIM is banking on Cascades turning the PlayBook around without any additional and significant effort on their part, this effort too is doomed to fail"... I never gave any indication that RIM was planning to just release Cascades and wish for the best. They've been working their butts off in all aspects of their business, and for the PlayBook to be receiving major updates this long after release is almost unheard of in the industry.
    04-16-12 11:39 AM
  13. WinningWithLogic's Avatar
    With respect, I am a developer and have created apps for iOS, Android, and even BlackBerry in the past (why I'm here now).

    Here's the deal biggulpseh, while you are correct that Cascades is an upcoming UI framework from RIM that can be used by native application developers, you have not addressed the fact that no developers are even interested in targetting the PlayBook/BB10.

    I spend a lot of time in developer circles. Nobody is talking about RIM. Nobody is talking about Cascades and bemoaning its absence. Nobody.

    You don't have apps on the PlayBook - and will not have apps on BB10 - not because of technical limitations, but because the userbase is insignificant and not worth targetting. Simple as that.
    ambarmetta likes this.
    04-16-12 11:43 AM
  14. WinningWithLogic's Avatar
    You're downplaying the significance of Cascades and RIM's commitment to their developers and ecosystem. Cascades is their differentiation to make it easy for devs to make great looking apps that perform very well using simple tools.

    I don't know what you mean by "If RIM is banking on Cascades turning the PlayBook around without any additional and significant effort on their part, this effort too is doomed to fail"... I never gave any indication that RIM was planning to just release Cascades and wish for the best. They've been working their butts off in all aspects of their business, and for the PlayBook to be receiving major updates this long after release is almost unheard of in the industry.
    And you're going from marketing messages that have no relation to reality. You don't know what Cascades will bring. Apple and Google have been building and enhancing their developer tools for YEARS - at this point, they are immensely sophisticated and powerful (XCode, ADT, ALint, etc.).

    Cascades is a UI framework which has never even been used by anyone outside of TAT - it was never a public framework, and has only been used in-house. And so it has never seen the years of enhancement/feedback/iteration that Apple and Google's tools have seen.

    if you're expecting a first-year on the road UI framework to compete with what the top engineers at Apple and Google have been refining for ages (in Apple's case, Cocoa is 10+ years of refinement), you're insane, and have zero understanding of just how complex software development is.
    Gouk likes this.
    04-16-12 11:47 AM
  15. app_Developer's Avatar
    You're downplaying the significance of Cascades and RIM's commitment to their developers and ecosystem. Cascades is their differentiation to make it easy for devs to make great looking apps that perform very well using simple tools.
    Well, I would slow down just a little bit there. Have you used Microsoft's tools for WP7 and 8? Or even Apple's tools and frameworks?

    Cascades isn't the only hole here. I also doubt cascades is a differentiator. I think that's overstating it. Cascades is one very important step in catching up with Microsoft, Apple, and Google on the API and tools front.

    Right now on the business side we look at PB and say the market is just too small. Then on the technical side we look at it and see the APIs and tools are just so incomplete. RIM is trying to address both. I really look forward to Cascades as a milestone in tackling the latter of those two.
    Last edited by app_Developer; 04-16-12 at 12:02 PM.
    04-16-12 11:55 AM
  16. WinningWithLogic's Avatar
    Well, I would slow down just a little bit there. Have you used Microsoft's tools for WP7 and 8?.
    Off-topic, but I've been using the WP7 development tools most recently, and they are sublimely good.

    It's the kind of thing that makes me mad actually. Visual Studio is widely considered to be one of the best production IDEs today. Most people consider C# to be an awesome language. And .NET is a powerful framework. All these things are the product of years and years of hard work, iteration, etc. by very passionate dedicated people.

    And now, somehow, this magical framework that nobody outside of TAT or RIM has ever used is supposed to blow us away? Why? Because it has hw accelerated animations? Heck, every UI framework today has that. Seriously, I want someone who is not a fanboy and actually knows what they're talking about to tell me why Cascades is even remotely interesting (technically)? And yes, I've seen the DevCon videos, and no, there is absolutely nothing in those that is unique to Cascades or remotely interesting.
    04-16-12 12:02 PM
  17. biggulpseh's Avatar
    And you're going from marketing messages that have no relation to reality. You don't know what Cascades will bring. Apple and Google have been building and enhancing their developer tools for YEARS - at this point, they are immensely sophisticated and powerful (XCode, ADT, ALint, etc.).

    Cascades is a UI framework which has never even been used by anyone outside of TAT - it was never a public framework, and has only been used in-house. And so it has never seen the years of enhancement/feedback/iteration that Apple and Google's tools have seen.

    if you're expecting a first-year on the road UI framework to compete with what the top engineers at Apple and Google have been refining for ages (in Apple's case, Cocoa is 10+ years of refinement), you're insane, and have zero understanding of just how complex software development is.
    You're not even trying to argue my point, you're just being a contrarian because you don't want anyone to have a positive viewpoint about the future of RIM. The whole point of this thread was to educate people that the PlayBook does not have a native UI framework as of yet, and until then, you can't really expect developers familiar with C/C++ to be bringing their apps to the platform. This includes many of the bigger name developers out there.

    As I said, Cascades is being released shortly which will bridge this gap, and give devs another reason to make apps on the platform... especially if that means there will be pre-packaged 3D animations and design elements that they can quickly and easily integrate into their apps.

    I wasn't saying Cascades was perfect by any means, because I simply have no idea and neither do you, so stop putting words in my mouth. You're trying to complicate an issue that's very simple. Would you rather RIM not release Cascades and simply let devs stick it out without a UI framework, or force them to use AIR and WebWorks? That makes no sense.
    BuzzStarField likes this.
    04-16-12 12:07 PM
  18. Willard814's Avatar
    What's not to like about this post? Nada! Too bad such a great post won't shut up the trolls!
    04-16-12 12:07 PM
  19. BuzzStarField's Avatar
    Well, I would slow down just a little bit there. Have you used Microsoft's tools for WP7 and 8? Or even Apple's tools and frameworks?

    Cascades isn't the only hole here. I also doubt cascades is a differentiator. I think that's overstating it. Cascades is one very important step in catching up with Microsoft, Apple, and Google on the API and tools front.

    Right now on the business side we look at PB and say the market is just too small. Then on the technical side we look at it and see the APIs and tools are just so incomplete. RIM is trying to address both. I really look forward to Cascades as a milestone is tackling the latter of those two.
    Excellent post. People should file it under the heading "Managing Expectations" and refer to it often. Many of the "promises" that RIM is reputed to have "broken" have started their lives as unrealistic assessments of various RIM announcements.

    Developers are guilty of this too. Witness my "expectation" that just because the device had a magnetometer chip, that I should plan my marketing strategy around the early accessibility of the feature. My priorities are not necessarily RIM's priorities and I set myself up for disappointment. Things are working out now but the journey has been slow and change has been incremental.
    04-16-12 12:12 PM
  20. biggulpseh's Avatar
    Well, I would slow down just a little bit there. Have you used Microsoft's tools for WP7 and 8? Or even Apple's tools and frameworks?

    Cascades isn't the only hole here. I also doubt cascades is a differentiator. I think that's overstating it. Cascades is one very important step in catching up with Microsoft, Apple, and Google on the API and tools front.

    Right now on the business side we look at PB and say the market is just too small. Then on the technical side we look at it and see the APIs and tools are just so incomplete. RIM is trying to address both. I really look forward to Cascades as a milestone in tackling the latter of those two.
    If you don't think Cascades is a differentiator for RIM then I don't really know what else to say. I intended this post as an educational one for some of the newbies on these forums who don't understand that the bulk of the apps currently in AppWorld are made with AIR, hence some of the performance and UI issues.

    If I knew people were going to like it so much I would've included more info about the missing APIs and such, but from what I've heard the first iteration of the BlackBerry 10 Native SDK to be released at BB World or shortly after will be filling the gap in that regard.
    04-16-12 12:12 PM
  21. dejanh's Avatar
    You're downplaying the significance of Cascades and RIM's commitment to their developers and ecosystem. Cascades is their differentiation to make it easy for devs to make great looking apps that perform very well using simple tools.

    I don't know what you mean by "If RIM is banking on Cascades turning the PlayBook around without any additional and significant effort on their part, this effort too is doomed to fail"... I never gave any indication that RIM was planning to just release Cascades and wish for the best. They've been working their butts off in all aspects of their business, and for the PlayBook to be receiving major updates this long after release is almost unheard of in the industry.
    A lot of what I would reply with (albeit maybe with a bit more tact) has been already stated by WinningWithLogic and app_Developer above. When I say "If RIM is banking on Cascades turning the PlayBook around without any additional and significant effort on their part, this effort too is doomed to fail" I mean that a UI toolkit alone is not the only significant problem that RIM is facing and it alone will not fix the situation with the PlayBook or anything RIM. It is a step in the right direction, but if RIM wants to turn it into a success they need to turn around the perception that has formed around their brand and the PlayBook. They need to aggressively push into the consumer market once again and make it lucrative for the developers to jump on the RIM bandwagon. They need to provide financial incentive to developers to produce applications for the PB platform. They need to market the crap out of the platform and back it up with solid performance. They are doing none of this right now. Cascades alone will not be the second coming for RIM without the right kind of backing.

    Oh and they also do not have time on their side...so the real question is, Cascades UI toolkit is here, but can RIM actually capitalize on it extremely quickly?
    Last edited by dejanh; 04-16-12 at 12:22 PM.
    04-16-12 12:15 PM
  22. WinningWithLogic's Avatar
    You're not even trying to argue my point, you're just being a contrarian because you don't want anyone to have a positive viewpoint about the future of RIM. The whole point of this thread was to educate people that the PlayBook does not have a native UI framework as of yet, and until then, you can't really expect developers familiar with C/C++ to be bringing their apps to the platform. This includes many of the bigger name developers out there.

    As I said, Cascades is being released shortly which will bridge this gap, and give devs another reason to make apps on the platform... especially if that means there will be pre-packaged 3D animations and design elements that they can quickly and easily integrate into their apps.

    I wasn't saying Cascades was perfect by any means, because I simply have no idea and neither do you, so stop putting words in my mouth. You're trying to complicate an issue that's very simple. Would you rather RIM not release Cascades and simply let devs stick it out without a UI framework, or force them to use AIR and WebWorks? That makes no sense.
    Actually, many of the bigger name mobile developers today primarily have codebases in either Objective-C (for iOS) or Java (for Android). The developers that have C/C++ codebases are primarily game devs who are leveraging OpenGL, and they could do that anyway on PlayBook without Cascades.

    To address your core point, Cascades is a positive move for RIM. But it is not ground-breaking, or particularly unique from what I've seen, and nor will it bring all the apps that users want. I realize this truth isn't as glamorous or front-page worthy as your story, but the truth rarely is.
    04-16-12 12:19 PM
  23. middbrew's Avatar
    A lot of what I would reply with (albeit maybe with a bit more tact) has been already stated by WinningWithLogic and app_Developer above. When I say "If RIM is banking on Cascades turning the PlayBook around without any additional and significant effort on their part, this effort too is doomed to fail" I mean that a UI toolkit alone is not the only significant problem that RIM is facing and it alone will not fix the situation with the PlayBook or anything RIM. It is a step in the right direction, but if RIM wants to turn it into a success they need to turn around the perception that has formed around their brand and the PlayBook. They need to aggressively push into the consumer market once again and make it lucrative for the developers to jump on the RIM bandwagon. They need to provide financial incentive to developers to produce applications for the PB platform. They need to market the out of the platform and back it up with solid performance. They are doing none of this right now. Cascades alone will not be the second coming for RIM without the right kind of backing.
    I think (and really hope) this is going to be something the new leadership needs and will do with the launch of the BB10 phones. Once some very good apps are developed for the PB and BB10 there should be a bigger draw of customers from the consumer sector.
    04-16-12 12:22 PM
  24. WinningWithLogic's Avatar
    If you don't think Cascades is a differentiator for RIM then I don't really know what else to say. I intended this post as an educational one for some of the newbies on these forums who don't understand that the bulk of the apps currently in AppWorld are made with AIR, hence some of the performance and UI issues.

    If I knew people were going to like it so much I would've included more info about the missing APIs and such, but from what I've heard the first iteration of the BlackBerry 10 Native SDK to be released at BB World or shortly after will be filling the gap in that regard.
    I would love a technical overview of why you believe Cascades is a differentiator. Do not skimp on the technical details and please refrain from wishy-washy stuff like "3D" and "animations" - ie. things you can do and have been demonstrated beautifully in pretty much every single other UI framework in many popular iOS and Android apps.

    To be clear as well, I'm not asking for a bullet point list pulled from a PPT. You have to explain what specific Cascades feature is unique by also showing that it is missing from iOS and/or Android.

    As a technical person with familiarity with all of the above, I can save you the trouble if you want and produce the list for you. It follows below:
    04-16-12 12:24 PM
  25. dejanh's Avatar
    I would love a technical overview of why you believe Cascades is a differentiator. Do not skimp on the technical details and please refrain from wishy-washy stuff like "3D" and "animations" - ie. things you can do and have been demonstrated beautifully in pretty much every single other UI framework in many popular iOS and Android apps.

    To be clear as well, I'm not asking for a bullet point list pulled from a PPT. You have to explain what specific Cascades feature is unique by also showing that it is missing from iOS and/or Android.

    As a technical person with familiarity with all of the above, I can save you the trouble if you want and produce the list for you. It follows below:

    I think (and really hope) this is going to be something the new leadership needs and will do with the launch of the BB10 phones. Once some very good apps are developed for the PB and BB10 there should be a bigger draw of customers from the consumer sector.
    You and I both...
    04-16-12 12:26 PM
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