05-29-12 10:49 AM
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  1. peter9477's Avatar
    How long will it take AFTER May 1st for the devs to get a grasp on Cascades and to start making all the apps that the PB should have had at the latest 10 months ago?
    I realize this probably wasn't what you were trying to say there, but my answer to what you did ask is: no time at all... immediately.

    That's when we'll start making all the apps...

    When will we finish? Now that's a more interesting question. :-)

    Developers are, as a whole, pretty creative people. I don't plan to take more than a few weeks to rewrite my existing apps, once we have Cascades available in an adequate state, and would also be working on 2-3 new ones immediately.

    Note that there are a few key things we don't know yet:

    1. Will the first beta actually be fully functional for the core stuff we've been missing?

    2. When will we be able to post Cascades apps in App World for users to download?

    I'm guessing that what we'll have after the Jam will address #1 pretty well, though since it's a beta everyone should anticipate some ongoing tweaks and improvements in the APIs for a few months afterwards.

    As for #2, I have no real idea. Those attending the Jam are supposed to get "BB10 Dev Alpha" devices (which some of us believe are basically the "Colt" phone prototypes that employees were testing last year, repurposed for the BB10 beta program for developers). Will those be the only way, in the short term, to run Cascades apps?

    Will there also be a simulator available right away (or ever)?

    Will we be able to deliver apps for the PlayBook immediately, but with deployment requiring us to bundle approximately 15-20MB of library code with each app?

    Will current PlayBook users have to install another beta OS to be able to run our initial releases? Or will the Cascades beta code be bundled in a 2.1 update and available already in May?

    Or (worst case for everyone) will nobody except developers with Alphas be able to run BB10/Cascades apps until much later in the year, when an OS update will be available with all the libraries included on the device?

    I don't think they've said, though I'm extremely anxious to learn some answers.
    bodjor, darktoy and PanaSama like this.
    04-15-12 04:53 PM
  2. biggulpseh's Avatar
    Interesting theory. And to be honest, I've been thinking like that when I got my PB for the first 6 months. But to say something like RIM doesn't have faith in their on 'beta' is unlikely for me.
    I would like to think about it this way. There is something *wrong* that made Twitter, Yahoo, etc aren't available natively in apps. I don't know, perhaps because of the *security* or something else. And I believe to this moment, they're still struggling to bring all of this to PB.
    Well, that's just me being positive. We will see in BlackBerry World 2012...
    Yeah exactly, those APIs simply weren't there to support push in the NDK until recently. And as far as I know, Skype only releases simple chat APIs, not the ones to tap into their video conferencing. Once The Blackberry 10 SDK is released, however, RIM won't have anymore excuses for those apps not being available.
    shung likes this.
    04-15-12 04:55 PM
  3. app_Developer's Avatar
    Yeah, okay i see what your saying, cascades is amazing and all that and upon release developers will be able to make amazing apps. but the real key here, is that RIM have had a perfectly good NDK since day one. and THEY havent bothered to release apps.
    Not true. The NDK is not perfectly good at all, unless you happen to have an immersive OpenGL game. There is no native UI kit, which is why people were forced to use Air and HTML, even if they wanted something more robust than that. Imagine Android without any of the view classes or even without the Activity class. Or imagine iOS without UIKit.

    I don't think Cascades will magically fix the app issue, because it is not the only missing API, and you still have all the business issues. But, I agree with the OP that is a huge milestone because it fills such a big hole right now.
    04-15-12 04:59 PM
  4. batkinson001's Avatar
    Great post. thanks for explaining it. i would +like this if i could on the mobile version of crackberry.com...
    04-15-12 05:10 PM
  5. rotorwrench's Avatar
    I sure hope they have something as in maybe an "app" along with a much needed os update to unveil as well. Rim needs a boost like that and so does the community. :banghead:

    Sent from my BlackBerry Runtime for Android Apps using Tapatalk 2 Beta-5
    Progress, improvement and innovation always needs to be sought after, especially in a consumer market, but I had my boost when I bought my PB, and after buying and trying other tablets. I'm still riding that boost, but 2.0 was icing on the cake. Cascades will be decadence. That's for me, not everyone. But naysayers, don't be so narcissistic to think what you think is bad or good applies to everyone, because the PB serves me well as is, right now. You have the right to your opinion, but not to discount mine for my needs.

    Good post OP. I'm more than willing to be patient. There's nothing better for me out there right now and patience is a virtue for a reason
    jafobabe and peter9477 like this.
    04-15-12 05:11 PM
  6. Bakamushi's Avatar
    Your outlook is such a downer! I like the OP's message better. I can work with it. If I took your glass-half-empty approach, I might as well toss my PB in the dust bin and quit trying to improve my app.
    You should not. We have different perspectives, you are a dev, I am a user.

    As a dev I would encourage you to continue improve your app, because I think BB10 will be great and successful. As a user the year 2013 is not on my horizon.
    Gouk likes this.
    04-15-12 05:14 PM
  7. Tomcat_Alley's Avatar
    Not true. The NDK is not perfectly good at all, unless you happen to have an immersive OpenGL game. There is no native UI kit, which is why people were forced to use Air and HTML, even if they wanted something more robust than that. Imagine Android without any of the view classes or even without the Activity class. Or imagine iOS without UIKit.

    I don't think Cascades will magically fix the app issue, because it is not the only missing API, and you still have all the business issues. But, I agree with the OP that is a huge milestone because it fills such a big hole right now.
    Okay, no i grant you the NDK isn't perfect, and cascade will be better for your average developer. but for developers like RIM and EA who have money to burn and access to unlimited developers things like this isnt going to be a problem. if RIM can produce the Native messenger app, why not a twitter or skype? granted games are different, but this is a RIM product and Games arent the key focus.

    Interesting theory. And to be honest, I've been thinking like that when I got my PB for the first 6 months. But to say something like RIM doesn't have faith in their on 'beta' is unlikely for me.
    I would like to think about it this way. There is something *wrong* that made Twitter, Yahoo, etc aren't available natively in apps. I don't know, perhaps because of the *security* or something else. And I believe to this moment, they're still struggling to bring all of this to PB.
    Well, that's just me being positive. We will see in BlackBerry World 2012...
    Well no, okay, maybe to say they didnt have faith was perhaps poor wording, but I dont think the Playbook was ever meant to succeed as a major player in the tablet world and was more of a base to build other things from. but the way RIM have handled it gives the impression to the world they have no faith in it.
    04-15-12 05:22 PM
  8. berrydroidapple's Avatar
    Attachment 107829Really enjoyed read this today, brought hope to another great day.
    Bakamushi, biggulpseh and Rello like this.
    04-15-12 05:23 PM
  9. app_Developer's Avatar
    Okay, no i grant you the NDK isn't perfect, and cascade will be better for your average developer. but for developers like RIM and EA who have money to burn and access to unlimited developers things like this isnt going to be a problem. if RIM can produce the Native messenger app, why not a twitter or skype? granted games are different, but this is a RIM product and Games arent the key focus.
    .
    Have you ever noticed that Skype on iOS uses UIKit? You don't think twitter on Android uses Activities and Views? You think they built those apps in straight up OpenGL or Qt?

    Cascades is not just a UI builder or some animation kit. it is the whole UI kit (or at least we hope so, because the NDK has none now)
    Last edited by app_Developer; 04-15-12 at 05:33 PM.
    04-15-12 05:27 PM
  10. biggulpseh's Avatar
    Attachment 107829Really enjoyed read this today, brought hope to another great day.
    Excellent! Have an awesome day!
    berrydroidapple likes this.
    04-15-12 05:32 PM
  11. superdookie67's Avatar
    I learned so much from the op here, thank you.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9700 using Tapatalk
    biggulpseh likes this.
    04-15-12 05:34 PM
  12. narci's Avatar
    I thought we won't see cascades until bb10?

    If so, it's going to be a long wait because RIM stated bb10 won't be updated for the pb until a little while after the bb10 phones are out.
    04-15-12 05:52 PM
  13. biggulpseh's Avatar
    I thought we won't see cascades until bb10?

    If so, it's going to be a long wait because RIM stated bb10 won't be updated for the pb until a little while after the bb10 phones are out.
    I think you're confusing two different issues.

    RIM is currently overhauling the whole PlayBook OS and UI to include Cascades in every one of their core apps and the base OS itself, which might be what you're referring to. This overhaul will culminate into what everyone considers BlackBerry 10, which will be available on the PlayBook after it is released when the first BlackBerry 10 phones arrive.

    Cascades in it's primitive form has already been used by RIM for awhile. Apps like Print-to-Go and Scrapbook utilize Cascades already, and have been available on the Playbook for quite some time. However, 3rd party devs haven't had the chance to use Cascades, and that's the big difference. Once Cascades is released within the Blackberry 10 SDK, anyone will be able to download it and start producing apps for the Playbook and BB10 phones.

    Overhauling the whole OS and core apps with Cascades (Blackberry 10) is a different issue than RIM releasing the SDK w/Cascades in it to the general public, which will hopefully happen come May 1st!
    bodjor, Bobcat665 and Bobcat665 like this.
    04-15-12 06:07 PM
  14. peter9477's Avatar
    I thought we won't see cascades until bb10?
    They have not said that.

    If I were speculating (and all of us are when talking about this), I'd say that we'll see Cascades in a form that lets developers release apps for the PlayBook quite a while before BB10 is actually released.

    I expect we'll see either a beta OS with Cascades support in it, or simply an update to the regular OS (2.1 perhaps) which itself has beta Cascades support in it, matching what developers will begin working with in May after the BB10 Jam.

    That would allow us actually to release our Cascades apps, which ultimately is the only way to get serious feedback to us and to RIM, which I believe is the intention so that it will all be fairly mature by the time BB10 itself arrives.
    rotorwrench and bodjor like this.
    04-15-12 06:08 PM
  15. dbmalloy's Avatar
    To the OP... god bless yah!!!.... Site needs more like you.....

    To the others.....

    Just got my crystall ball back from the ye old lapidary shop..... Much to my dismay I do not need it... The response to the OP tells me the future without using it.... Have to call them and ask for my first born back.....

    Here is what will happen when the BB10 is launched.....

    1 It took RIM 2 years to get this OS to market.... ( read... too little... too late ).....

    2 It does not have ( you fill in the blank ).... With the lastest group I am sure someone will complain there is not a goat hearding App.....

    3 Apple and Android OS does this that and the other thing that BB10 does not..... Not sure what but many will let us know.....

    4 THe hardware should have included ( again fill in the blank )..... Some will be upset it does not have satellite phone capabilities built in.....

    5 Does not have enough or good ( what I decide I think it should have ) apps compared to Apple or Android.... Still waiting to see tha tablet that can download the 400,000 plus apps Apple has..... and the user who has the time to go through them all......

    Yes RIM blew it big time... All the negative press and critisisn for things they screwed up is justified... but this constant flow of negativity about what may or may not be is rather silly... Here is a novel idea...how about waiting for the Devices and OS to actually come out and then critisize away as will happen.... We know that is what will happen....

    I will end on a subject not many think about... Whatever it's past history... RIM is attempting something that Apple and Google is not... A total revamp of their OS.... The Playbook is a template but nothing more.... I have owned an IPad since they came out... there has been not major changes to it... From navigation and operation.... OS 3 4 5 are virtually identical.... this is to keep copmpatability.....( yes yes... they have added new features ) but the base os structure is the same... Android is the same.. The recent iterations of Android is to merge the smartphone and Tablets ala Apple....

    I look forward to the new OS.... but unlile the OP I am very pessimistic on it's future... Speaking of which does anyone want to buy a slightly used crystal ball.... only used a couple of times to look a furture stock prices... Honest......
    04-15-12 06:20 PM
  16. jordandrews90's Avatar
    Thanks for Writing this up biggulpseh. I've had the Playbook since it came out, I do miss some major apps but it doesn't bother me that much.

    I learned a lot from your post though, and i'm excited to see cascades come out now! I never really understood what it was before.

    So, thanks!
    04-15-12 06:25 PM
  17. SCrid2000's Avatar
    RIM is not skimping on developer support for Cascades either - it looks like over half the he developed trainings at BB10 Jam will deal with Cascades.
    04-15-12 06:31 PM
  18. raysivley's Avatar
    Can I safely assume we will be getting a HUGE playbook os upgrade to accommodate this?
    04-15-12 06:38 PM
  19. sajx's Avatar
    Great post. Definitely need more of these post. Truth is, everyone knew OS2.0 was only a start, but with all the comparing to the other os and what they have or can do that Blackberry cant currently do people get more frustrated. But being patient will be the key. BB10 OS will definitely quench the thirst
    04-15-12 06:58 PM
  20. biggulpseh's Avatar
    Can I safely assume we will be getting a HUGE playbook os upgrade to accommodate this?
    There will no doubt be incremental updates before BlackBerry 10 is finally released, but there shouldn't really be any massive updates necessary until the overhaul of the UI that will come with Blackberry 10.
    04-15-12 07:01 PM
  21. Economist101's Avatar
    When the PlayBook was first released almost exactly a year ago, developers had 2 options for making apps on the platform: Adobe AIR and WebWorks (html5). In their first iterations, the Software Development Kits (SDKs, used to assemble the code and app) which were released for both of these coding platforms were missing a number of important Application Programming Interfaces (APIs, allow use of different parts of the hardware and OS) necessary to build great apps. Furthermore, as platforms, AIR and WebWorks don't allow for full utilization of the hardware.

    What the PlayBook was missing was a Native SDK (NDK) for building apps in in C/C++, which allows for the most high-performing apps on the platform, able to utilize all APIs available. A few big name devs like EA were allowed to use it to build games such as Need for Speed and Tetris. It has been subsequently released for all devs, and games like Angry Birds and Plants vs. Zombies utilize the NDK. However, the NDK still does not have a Native UI Framework.
    This begs the question: why release a product without tools that allow for full hardware utilization? Why launch without an NDK?
    04-15-12 07:05 PM
  22. BackDaws's Avatar
    Oh god I hope this isn't bs as im buzzing like a bee now

    Sent from my GT-I9001 using Tapatalk
    04-15-12 07:09 PM
  23. notfanboy's Avatar

    Wondering why apps like Netflix and Skype and Kindle aren't on the platform yet? No Cascades yet. Trust me, those companies aren't going to invest tens of thousands of dollars into AIR or WebWorks development for the PlayBook when they can just wait for Cascades which will look way better anyways. After Cascades is released (hopefully around BlackBerry World), we're going to see an influx of amazing apps hitting the platform.
    There's quite a bit of speculation and wishful thinking in the original post, but that's ok since some creative license is warranted when cheerleading. I'll just focus on the paragraph I quoted above because oh boy, I think you went too far in overselling that one.

    Does anyone honestly believe that the Netflix, Skype, and Kindle aren't on the platform is because Cascades isn't available yet? The real reason is that because of the marketshare, companies would prioritize development in this order: iOS, Android, Microsoft/RIM. When programming resources are scarce they won't even get moving on the third or fourth choice.

    By the way, you happened to pick the three applications that would benefit the least from a UI Framework like Cascades. All three are immersive graphics applications which don't use standard UI controls except when setting preferences. Cascades might give Netflix pretty transitions when browsing and searching for a movie, but the heart of Netflix is in the video player.

    I hope people don't come away thinking that Cascades is the silver bullet that you described. It has already been delayed a few times. When it does come out, how mature and bug-free do you think it is going to be? And then there's the adoption and learning curve. There's an vast amount of developer support for Cocoa and the Android frameworks. Sample source code, documentation, forums, books, courses, etc. How much support is there going to be for Cascades?
    Hobbes2099 likes this.
    04-15-12 07:11 PM
  24. biggulpseh's Avatar
    This begs the question: why release a product without tools that allow for full hardware utilization? Why launch without an NDK?
    A very good question. If you go back and look at the video of the announcement of the PlayBook way back at DevCon of 2010, when Dan Dodge comes onto the stage and starts talking about the SDKs available for the platform, he mentions that a full-featured NDK will be available at launch. This goes to show that they had fully been planning to launch the PB with the NDK+Cascades. I guess things didn't work out at well as they had hoped, and they got bogged down trying to get the NDK to work properly and/or integrate with Cascades appropriately. That, or the usability of the NDK was simply substandard, and to increase it's reach they decided to simplify it for more beginner devs. Only the guys at RIM would be able to tell you for sure.
    04-15-12 07:21 PM
  25. biggulpseh's Avatar
    Does anyone honestly believe that the Netflix, Skype, and Kindle aren't on the platform is because Cascades isn't available yet? The real reason is that because of the marketshare, companies would prioritize development in this order: iOS, Android, Microsoft/RIM. When programming resources are scarce they won't even get moving on the third or fourth choice.
    No. I'm sorry but you're quite simply wrong. For Netflix to port their iOS app to Playbook using the NDK and Cascades would not take as many resources to make it as cost prohibitive as you seem to think. However, rebuilding the app using WebWorks or AIR, two platforms they most likely do not have devs for, would be a lot harder - and probably WOULD cost a lot for them. Furthermore, the lack of APIs and flexibility of those platforms would mean they'd have to spend a huge amount of time optimizing the application to be usable, which might not even happen considering AIR cannot tap into multiple processing threads, etc.

    By the way, you happened to pick the three applications that would benefit the least from a UI Framework like Cascades. All three are immersive graphics applications which don't use standard UI controls except when setting preferences. Cascades might give Netflix pretty transitions when browsing and searching for a movie, but the heart of Netflix is in the video player.
    In what way are Netflix, Skype, and Kindle "immersive graphics applications"? I can think of hundreds of ways in which these applications would require UI framework elements... scrolling through lists of movies for Netflix, entering contact information and scrolling through message lists for Skype, and entering account information or picking from a pulldown menu of what chapter to go to in Kindle.

    Besides, if the heart of the Netflix is the video player, then this is a perfect example of how an NDK would be necessary in order to access hardware acceleration and advanced calls for codecs, etc.

    I hope people don't come away thinking that Cascades is the silver bullet that you described. It has already been delayed a few times. When it does come out, how mature and bug-free do you think it is going to be? And then there's the adoption and learning curve. There's an vast amount of developer support for Cocoa and the Android frameworks. Sample source code, documentation, forums, books, courses, etc. How much support is there going to be for Cascades?
    This just comes off as extremely pessimistic. Do I expect it to be perfect? No. But I have full confidence in RIM and TAT that if they've waited this long for their crown jewel, they would have done a huge amount of work to make sure it functions properly. The success of the platform hinges on the NDK in Cascades, do you really think they're going to abandon their developers trying to utilize it?
    jcbrunson and Hobbes2099 like this.
    04-15-12 07:38 PM
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