05-29-12 09:49 AM
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  1. middbrew's Avatar
    if by the statement "RIMM DIES" as in the company failing ..... Atari and Commodore will accept RIMM into the annals of history with open arms......hey no one here from RIMM ever posts or participates or supports its customers so what's the big deal.....


    then what of it...it's his opinion no more no less let him / her vent .....this too shall pass....
    I disagree. Stating an opinion as to what a person thinks is best for a company, what the person started out doing is the foundation of a discussion. Stating they want the company to die is just plain mean and really has no place here.
    DAnklaud likes this.
    04-16-12 01:28 PM
  2. barskin's Avatar
    You fail at reading comprehension. In the context of the discussion we were having (which you either didn't read, or didn't understand), driving is an analogy for having the top-tier apps mentioned by the OP.
    I thought your post was great! I'm just pi@@ed that I didn't write it.

    "the tires are just regular tires...And also, that car is missing two doors, a steering wheel, and the brake pedal...."

    LOL!!!
    04-16-12 01:32 PM
  3. middbrew's Avatar
    +1 I'm super sad MS isn't doing better. There is one company that is absolutely nailing the developer platform. And the OS is fresh and intuitive.

    They deserve to be doing better. It shows you just how hard it is to compete in this market. Amazing platform, developer tools, devices, and they're even going huge with marketing (Lumia launch).

    This is why I'm a pessimist with respect to RIM. Microsoft is 10x the company RIM is in terms of being able to deliver OS, SW, etc.
    It is surprising MS isn't a stronger presence in the market. For RIMs sake I hope their past as the leader in the market helps them in the future. Time will tell.
    04-16-12 01:32 PM
  4. biggulpseh's Avatar
    Let me summarize this thread to date:

    biggulpseh: Guys, pretty soon that car you have with no tires is going to be AMAZING. Cars In Motion is going to be introducing AMAZING OMG SUPER-FAST TIRES coming up and you will be able to drive to all the places those other cool people hang out!

    People who know about cars and tires: Actually, the tires are just regular tires with nothing that seems particularly special about them. And also, that car is missing two doors, a steering wheel, and the brake pedal doesn't work so you still won't be able to drive it.

    Sith_Apprentice/biggulpseh: But having tires is better than having no tires! Getting tires is a big step forward for CIM!

    <Collective Observation>: Yes, but it's still a car you can't drive.

    END THREAD.
    I didn't even know people as miserable as yourself even existed ... Talk about an eye-opening experience.

    Agree to disagree I guess. If you don't think the pre-packaged effects within the UI toolkit are a differentiator then I guess that's your opinion. But with Cascades, it should make it a lot easier for beginner devs to make beautiful applications without having an extensive knowledge of OpenGL. Again, I guess if you really only care about function over form then that's your opinion, but it's still an opinion.

    PlayBook apps are continually lambasted for their simple UIs and usability, a lot of which has to do with there being only a small community of talented developers making apps for PlayBook. If RIM can make it easier for beginners to incorporate professional-looking elements within their apps i.e. defining a list with shaders already applied versus just a simple 2D list class then I truly believe this is the differentiation RIM needs.
    UrbanGlowCam likes this.
    04-16-12 01:34 PM
  5. dejanh's Avatar
    +1 I'm super sad MS isn't doing better. There is one company that is absolutely nailing the developer platform. And the OS is fresh and intuitive.

    They deserve to be doing better.
    Yes, I agree. But this also very well illustrates just how strongly entrenched iOS and Android are today. What Microsoft needs is more aggressive carrier push and commitment to continuous improvements and updates, something which so far they have been unwilling to do. What RIM needs is much more complicated.

    They first need a solid platform (maybe Cascades can help with that), then they need to get developers on board (paying them Microsoft style would work), then they need to step out of their "invisible corporate shell" and execute a serious and sustained marketing push (yes RIM...on TV, in stores, on the web, you know...marketing). They also need to exercise much more transparency than they practice today, and really make a firm and serious commitment to continuous improvements and updates.

    It is actually sad to see that one of the most successful software companies in the world that pretty much owns the day-to-day workflow in every organization out there (Microsoft) and one of the pioneers of the mobile market in general (RIM) be absolutely dominated by nothing more than a series of convictions and perceptions. However both companies have only themselves to blame.
    Last edited by dejanh; 04-16-12 at 01:41 PM.
    04-16-12 01:38 PM
  6. WinningWithLogic's Avatar
    I didn't even know people as miserable as yourself even existed ... Talk about an eye-opening experience.
    Well that's...rude. Miserable? Because I'm pointing out logical and completely reasonable errors with your statements about a subject on which I happen to have a deep knowledge? Really?

    Agree to disagree I guess. If you don't think the pre-packaged effects within the UI toolkit are a differentiator then I guess that's your opinion. But with Cascades, it should make it a lot easier for beginner devs to make beautiful applications without having an extensive knowledge of OpenGL. Again, I guess if you really only care about function over form then that's your opinion, but it's still an opinion.

    PlayBook apps are continually lambasted for their simple UIs and usability, a lot of which has to do with there being only a small community of talented developers making apps for PlayBook. If RIM can make it easier for beginners to incorporate professional-looking elements within their apps i.e. defining a list with shaders already applied versus just a simple 2D list class then I truly believe this is the differentiation RIM needs.
    Again, that's not unique. Both iOS and Android provide developers with hardware accelerated UI frameworks. It is trivially simple to do this with both platforms, and developers have made good use of this to consistently deliver beautiful applications on both platforms. What you are talking about is not unique to Cascades, and in fact has been in place for years.

    I realize you're all flustered because you watched a video of Cascades and saw pictures animating in to a list, but you need to understand you can create this exact same effect with both iOS and Android, it's very easy to do, and numerous apps on the market today do things just like this. That you are not aware of this and think it makes Cascades unique says a lot, I think, about your awareness of competitive offerings.
    Gouk likes this.
    04-16-12 01:53 PM
  7. app_Developer's Avatar
    Agree to disagree I guess. If you don't think the pre-packaged effects within the UI toolkit are a differentiator then I guess that's your opinion. But with Cascades, it should make it a lot easier for beginner devs to make beautiful applications without having an extensive knowledge of OpenGL.
    Maybe we just mean different things by the word "differentiator". Are you saying that this is something that Microsoft, Apple, and Android don't already have in their SDKs?
    04-16-12 01:59 PM
  8. biggulpseh's Avatar
    Well that's...rude. Miserable? Because I'm pointing out logical and completely reasonable errors with your statements about a subject on which I happen to have a deep knowledge? Really?
    Ha. Please don't lecture me on being rude after some of the things you've hurled at me today. I'm playing the world's smallest violin over here.

    Again, that's not unique. Both iOS and Android provide developers with hardware accelerated UI frameworks. It is trivially simple to do this with both platforms, and developers have made good use of this to consistently deliver beautiful applications on both platforms. What you are talking about is not unique to Cascades, and in fact has been in place for years.

    I realize you're all flustered because you watched a video of Cascades and saw pictures animating in to a list, but you need to understand you can create this exact same effect with both iOS and Android, it's very easy to do, and numerous apps on the market today do things just like this. That you are not aware of this and think it makes Cascades unique says a lot, I think, about your awareness of competitive offerings.
    Cool, making assumptions again about me... and 'trivially simple' is just about the biggest joke I've heard so far today if we're talking about applying multiple OpenGL effects versus ones that are already packaged within the UI framework. But again, this comes down to our opinions. If you don't think that these effects offer something unique to the BlackBerry 10 experience then there's no point in arguing.
    Last edited by biggulpseh; 04-16-12 at 02:08 PM.
    04-16-12 02:04 PM
  9. app_Developer's Avatar
    ... and 'trivially simple' is just about the biggest joke I've heard so far today if we're talking about applying multiple OpenGL effects versus ones that are already packaged within the UI framework. But again, this comes down to our opinions. If you don't think that these effects offer something unique to the BlackBerry 10 experience then there's no point in arguing.
    Well perhaps you could explain why you think this is unique? Maybe give an example. Will Cascades have all of the API that CoreAnimation has, for example? Does it have more features than CoreAnimation? If so, perhaps an example or two?

    Or are you just saying that the canned effects are different? But what if you don't want exactly the canned effects? What is the model for modifying or building our own effects like we can in WP7 and iOS?
    Last edited by app_Developer; 04-16-12 at 02:22 PM.
    04-16-12 02:13 PM
  10. WinningWithLogic's Avatar
    Ha. Please don't lecture me on being rude after some of the things you've hurled at me today. I'm playing the world's smallest violin over here.



    Cool, making assumptions again about me... and 'trivially simple' is just about the biggest joke I've heard so far today if we're talking about applying multiple OpenGL effects versus ones that are already packaged within the UI framework. But again, this comes down to our opinions. If you don't think that these effects offer something unique to the BlackBerry 10 experience then there's no point in arguing.
    Uh, numerous OpenGL effects are packed in to the UI frameworks of iOS, Android, etc. Ever seen the iOS page flip, curls, etc? And you're going to tell me about how easy it is to apply hardware accelerated UI effects? Please enlighten me with your obvious knowledge on this subject, person-who-is-not-a-programmer-and-has-never-done-this-before.

    Since you are obviously a whiz at this topic, how about we talk about Quaternions for representing rotation and why euler angles suck. Also, recently I've been running in to some memory issues with a DirectX application I've been working on for the XBox - think you can help me debug it? Also, I'm dying to hear your opinion on whether you also think that lambda expressions in C# are nasty.
    04-16-12 02:16 PM
  11. theegoldenone's Avatar
    Sure hope you're right. If I see another "lack of apps thread" I am going to shoot myself.
    Then start loading your gun because some folks will never be satisfied. If they can't spend hours mudding through millions of apps, it'll never be enough, unfortunately.
    04-16-12 02:24 PM
  12. barskin's Avatar
    Then start loading your gun because some folks will never be satisfied. If they can't spend hours mudding through millions of apps, it'll never be enough, unfortunately.
    Wait. I though the OP was celebrating the fact that Cascades - woo hoo - was going to give us more apps, now you are complaining about people who want apps. I don't want "millions of apps," just the ones that every other tablet delivers, like (here I go again)

    Bank of America
    The Huffington Pist
    eBay
    The New York Times
    Politico
    Wall Street Journal
    Salon.com
    Slate

    for starters....

    And, yes, I mean the apps, which are different and have more functions than web pages (and I have expained why in detail in other posts).
    darktoy, Gouk and jimbo_hippo like this.
    04-16-12 02:47 PM
  13. biggulpseh's Avatar
    Uh, numerous OpenGL effects are packed in to the UI frameworks of iOS, Android, etc. Ever seen the iOS page flip, curls, etc? And you're going to tell me about how easy it is to apply hardware accelerated UI effects? Please enlighten me with your obvious knowledge on this subject, person-who-is-not-a-programmer-and-has-never-done-this-before.
    Okay so now we're getting further into specifics and opinion... so even if Cascades is released with a larger library of effects which the large proportion of the general public deem more visually appealing it still wouldn't matter because "you can do the same thing on iOS and Android and it's trivially easy". Cascades will never ever be different from the UI frameworks of Apple and Android and the effects will always be worse right?... You obviously have your mind already made up so this is a stupid argument.

    Since you are obviously a whiz at this topic, how about we talk about Quaternions for representing rotation and why euler angles suck. Also, recently I've been running in to some memory issues with a DirectX application I've been working on for the XBox - think you can help me debug it? Also, I'm dying to hear your opinion on whether you also think that lambda expressions in C# are nasty.
    Because this has everything to do with Cascades... okay. If we're asking completely unrelated questions then please enlighten me on your knowledge of the biosynthesis of the TIC/TOC translocon machinery within chloroplasts and the significance of each protein within this complex. Please tell me more about nutrient cycling within marine ecosystems and the elements which contribute to nitrification and denitirification within these systems.
    Gouk likes this.
    04-16-12 02:55 PM
  14. jcbrunson's Avatar
    OK OK, both of you are pretty.



    Back to the regularly scheduled thread discussion...
    04-16-12 03:09 PM
  15. okie4309's Avatar
    I post worth reading (not that the rest are not). I haven't touch my playbook in almost 3 weeks, I was either going to sell it, or let it sit and collect dust like my cellphone. Now I will look forward to BBworld and see what RIM is planning for the PB. Hopefully this will bring RIM back on their feet.
    04-16-12 03:48 PM
  16. Knightcrawler's Avatar
    This is becoming quiet a pissing match.

    A alot of people are assuming that cascades will be amazing, and do what it does better then its current ios/droid counterpart, and there is no proof of that.

    However, a lot of people are also assuming that it wont be better, and that's an equally simplified opinion.

    Now im not a fancy developer or marine biologist (or whatever it is you do biggulpseh ), but is it really that far fetched to assume that cascades wont be able to do what its competitors are doing currently? Its infact more likely that they will be on par with the competition then them lagging behind. Whether they bring something new to the table is debatable however.


    Everyone seems to think that the PB will have ONE saving grace, or that ONE solution/app/UI framework can magically make it all better, but that's not the case. But it also doesn't mean that these incremental changes WONT make the PB any better, and that it'll always be worse then apple/driod offerings.

    Baby steps my friends, baby steps. Unless the folks at TAT are complete turd-monkeys, they've realized that they need to offer something different, something that their competitors dont also offer (and have been for a few years). So instead of bashing each other for making illogical claims and assumptions, how about we wait and see whether TAT delivers or eff's up before calling each other stupid. As of right now, were all making guesses.
    04-16-12 03:50 PM
  17. Innovatology's Avatar
    Enough already! Let's wait for BB JAM in a couple of weeks and resume then to discuss in a civilized manner.
    peter9477 likes this.
    04-16-12 04:03 PM
  18. SpeBlue's Avatar
    I got a PlayBook during the latest 'free for new devs' offer, Cascades won't solve anything unless RIM has complete, good documentation, and labels it, or something, as the recommended way of developing apps.

    As it is now, sure you can write almost any app you want via AIR, WebWorks, Android etc, but what devs need to know is "Which of these is supported best?"
    Right now it's AIR, at least in my experience, but even then the documentation isn't that great. They've got a lot of sample projects for us to poke through, but that's more 'the answer's somewhere in this code, find it yourself' rather than 'here's how to make buttons, textfields, lists'. If they do have that, they haven't made it easy to find. Compared to Apple's documentation, developing for PlayBook is bad. Better than Android though, I'll give RIM that.

    Re: the 'app situation' in general; the store is severely lacking, don't fool yourself. I'll be doing my bit to fill in some holes, but the issues above are what the problem is.

    Here's hoping they pull off something wonderful at BB Jam, I really want to see the PlayBook do well. It's the first BlackBerry that I've enjoyed using.
    04-16-12 04:06 PM
  19. victorshikhman's Avatar
    What the PlayBook was missing was a Native SDK (NDK) for building apps in in C/C++, which allows for the most high-performing apps on the platform, able to utilize all APIs available. A few big name devs like EA were allowed to use it to build games such as Need for Speed and Tetris. It has been subsequently released for all devs, and games like Angry Birds and Plants vs. Zombies utilize the NDK. However, the NDK still does not have a Native UI Framework.
    Sorry for the noob question, but I need to ask... I thought BB apps are coded in Java, not C/C++. Will the SDK/Cascades allow C/C++ app development?

    I know some C++, not enough to really much with yet, but if C++ development on playbook were opened up, especially with the graphic properties of Cascades you've described, I would be interested in trying out some simple app ideas. A friend of mine with a similar C++ skill level was able to put together a fairly useful quick reference app using the Apple SDK that we're both using daily.

    But I thought BB apps were coded in Java, no?
    04-16-12 04:20 PM
  20. Knightcrawler's Avatar
    That's a good point SpeBlue, and it goes back to what i was saying about incremental changes. No one thing will fix the problem, as there are a number of issues that contribute to the perception that the PB is bad and not worth buying. But it's a very young system, and RIM released it atleast 2 years too early. Things like proper documentation are probably higher up on the "things to fix" list, but little by little they can be fixed. As the OS evolves and starts to utilize its full potential (based on what people say its capable of), i have no doubt it'll be able to compete with anything else on the marker. But RIM's big problem right now is prioritizing and making sure they can keep progressing and allow them selves more room to maneuver.

    It may take another 2 years before the PB can compete head to head with an ipad or the latest android tablet, and that's fine by me; but RIM has to make sure they do enough to remain on the scene for those 2 years and not get left behind.
    04-16-12 04:25 PM
  21. app_Developer's Avatar
    Sorry for the noob question, but I need to ask... I thought BB apps are coded in Java, not C/C++. Will the SDK/Cascades allow C/C++ app development?

    I know some C++, not enough to really much with yet, but if C++ development on playbook were opened up, especially with the graphic properties of Cascades you've described, I would be interested in trying out some simple app ideas. A friend of mine with a similar C++ skill level was able to put together a fairly useful quick reference app using the Apple SDK that we're both using daily.

    But I thought BB apps were coded in Java, no?
    The native APIs are C/C++. Actually, they are mostly C.

    The Java environment used in previous Blackberry OSes is not the native environment on PB or BB10. This is a completely new operating system.
    Last edited by app_Developer; 04-16-12 at 04:28 PM.
    04-16-12 04:26 PM
  22. sf49ers's Avatar
    Let's try and lighten the mood in this thread a bit...here's some reading on Microsoft's push with Nokia and Windows phones.

    Windows Phone is great, so why aren't more people buying them? | ZDNet

    If you actually read that, you will see that there are some striking parallels between Microsoft's conundrum now and that of RIM in general. Difference is that RIM blew their chance to stay the leader and now has to double down and regain its stance. Both companies are fighting perception, and it is going to take some extreme effort to turn this around. No amount of amazing UI on any platform will make that happen on its own. Not with how entrenched iOS and Android are in today's smartphone market. I think that if RIM had the money to pay-off developers to develop for its platform much as Microsoft has done, they would very quickly have a winning formula. However, this is proving to be a problem for them, with good reason. Market has basically lost all confidence in RIM, so now they are fighting not only perception of consumers but also the market itself.
    Windows Phone doesn't have Native SDK available yet and BB10 does have it in some form already.

    Windows Phone doesn't have most high end games that playbook has like Dead space etc.. and I am confident that we will see Angry Birds Space first on Playbook than a Windows Phone. IMO in general the app situation on windows phone is worse than the playbook.

    My point is developing for BB10 is a breeze compared to Windows Phone which requires you to develop in C# where as BB10 offers you plethora of options to develop for.
    Last edited by sf49ers; 04-16-12 at 04:28 PM.
    04-16-12 04:26 PM
  23. BackDaws's Avatar
    if cascades is amazing and successful will rim raise the price on playbooks after launch? I'm asking because I might give my 16gb one to my daughter and get myself a 32gb.

    Sent from my BlackBerry Runtime for Android Apps using Tapatalk 2 Beta-5
    04-16-12 04:28 PM
  24. Mikey_T's Avatar
    I'm not convinced. We've heard this argument before, each time we approach the release of a new version, a new NDK, a new set of tools, API, etc.

    "Developers are just waiting for this one thing, then they're all going to release apps for Playbook".

    I'd love to believe it, but I think it's a pipe-dream.
    04-16-12 04:39 PM
  25. theegoldenone's Avatar
    Wait. I though the OP was celebrating the fact that Cascades - woo hoo - was going to give us more apps, now you are complaining about people who want apps. I don't want "millions of apps," just the ones that every other tablet delivers, like (here I go again)

    Bank of America
    The Huffington Pist
    eBay
    The New York Times
    Politico
    Wall Street Journal
    Salon.com
    Slate

    for starters....

    And, yes, I mean the apps, which are different and have more functions than web pages (and I have expained why in detail in other posts).
    I hear you and I'm not complaining. I'm just saying, for example, the apps you listed are great for you, but since the PB doesn't have 10 different apps that simulate arm pit noises, it'll never be good enough, hence the "millions of apps".
    04-16-12 05:15 PM
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