1. the_boon's Avatar
    Everybody has different opinions. I carry a Nokia that 175gms and it's too heavy. My son has a iPhone XS Max and at 200 + grams he is now interested in a much smaller / lighter handset.

    For those with other devices (tablets / laptops / desktops) there is no need to carry a large phablet. Small, pocketable and truly portable are what we want.

    The concept of truly portable and pocketable is mostly lost. Sadly, android users seeking a smaller phone can only hope that the new iPhone mini sells well and this forces android OEMs to follow / copy.
    For now, Android compact fans can choose between the Galaxy S10e, Pixel 4a and Pixel 5. Those three are under 145mm tall.

    But the new iPhone 12 Mini is a whopping 131mm tall, which is like the BlackBerry Classic.
    10-14-20 07:38 PM
  2. Gene Fells's Avatar
    For now, Android compact fans can choose between the Galaxy S10e, Pixel 4a and Pixel 5. Those three are under 145mm tall.

    But the new iPhone 12 Mini is a whopping 131mm tall, which is like the BlackBerry Classic.
    One would think that every android OEM would have designs for small handsets ready to go. They would be waiting for a company "brave" enough to take the first step.
    Paulelmar18 and idssteve like this.
    10-14-20 10:43 PM
  3. Winnertrack's Avatar
    Sony made this step with their Compact Series and gave it up, why? Not enough people were interested to buy such compact smartphone.
    10-15-20 06:12 AM
  4. idssteve's Avatar
    Maybe compactness and slab are incompatible? Sculptured keys assisted superb typing on pretty tiny Bolds. Did the compact Sony include sculptured keys? Lol.

    This 9900 is 115mm tall. 130g. With JM1 batt. Its firm 1st to 4th finger top/bottom grasp permits active rock and tilt technique to greet a single thumb stretching to reach distant keys. Keys even more distant on oversized Classic. Hopelessly distant on gargantuan Ks. The same oversized "hand"sets that need rock & tilt most, prove least friendly to the technique. Imo. Go figure. Lol.

    9900's 115mm height handicapped its wpm about 3-5% of 9650's 113mm. Q10's 120mm suffered a 5% wpm handicap compared with 9900's 115mm. Classic's 130mm suffers 15% wpm compared with 9900's 115mm.

    Passport's 128mm height didn't help it overcome its width handicap over Classic. Even with grasp assisting contraptions fitted my best single thumb PP achieves about half of 9900.

    How tall is a K1? Who cares? The thing feels like it needs clearance lights, imo. Lol. Without contraptions, it's about 1/3 of single thumb 9650. Interestingly, virtually same ridiculously oversized K2LE can type double my K1 rate... With contraptions. Clearly more that JUST size matters. Lol.

    Am I the ONLY one to test and quantify this stuff? Surely manufacturers have...??? Maybe I'm the only one who shives a git? Go figure.

    There IS a hand size threshold that evolution hasn't yet adapted. Lol. Might our distant progeny evolve 36" thumbs? Lol.
    Gene Fells likes this.
    10-15-20 06:45 AM
  5. the_boon's Avatar
    Maybe compactness and slab are incompatible? Sculptured keys assisted superb typing on pretty tiny Bolds. Did the compact Sony include sculptured keys? Lol.

    This 9900 is 115mm tall. 130g. With JM1 batt. Its firm 1st to 4th finger top/bottom grasp permits active rock and tilt technique to greet a single thumb stretching to reach distant keys. Keys even more distant on oversized Classic. Hopelessly distant on gargantuan Ks. The same oversized "hand"sets that need rock & tilt most, prove least friendly to the technique. Imo. Go figure. Lol.

    9900's 115mm height handicapped its wpm about 3-5% of 9650's 113mm. Q10's 120mm suffered a 5% wpm handicap compared with 9900's 115mm. Classic's 130mm suffers 15% wpm compared with 9900's 115mm.

    Passport's 128mm height didn't help it overcome its width handicap over Classic. Even with grasp assisting contraptions fitted my best single thumb PP achieves about half of 9900.

    How tall is a K1? Who cares? The thing feels like it needs clearance lights, imo. Lol. Without contraptions, it's about 1/3 of single thumb 9650. Interestingly, virtually same ridiculously oversized K2LE can type double my K1 rate... With contraptions. Clearly more that JUST size matters. Lol.

    Am I the ONLY one to test and quantify this stuff? Surely manufacturers have...??? Maybe I'm the only one who shives a git? Go figure.

    There IS a hand size threshold that evolution hasn't yet adapted. Lol. Might our distant progeny evolve 36" thumbs? Lol.
    Typing on compact slabs is okay if you're doing one handed swipe typing.

    But if you start two-handing it, pecking at those tiny glass keys is gonna make for a frustrating, typo-full experience in no time.
    10-15-20 09:42 AM
  6. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Maybe compactness and slab are incompatible? Sculptured keys assisted superb typing on pretty tiny Bolds. Did the compact Sony include sculptured keys? Lol.

    This 9900 is 115mm tall. 130g. With JM1 batt. Its firm 1st to 4th finger top/bottom grasp permits active rock and tilt technique to greet a single thumb stretching to reach distant keys. Keys even more distant on oversized Classic. Hopelessly distant on gargantuan Ks. The same oversized "hand"sets that need rock & tilt most, prove least friendly to the technique. Imo. Go figure. Lol.

    9900's 115mm height handicapped its wpm about 3-5% of 9650's 113mm. Q10's 120mm suffered a 5% wpm handicap compared with 9900's 115mm. Classic's 130mm suffers 15% wpm compared with 9900's 115mm.

    Passport's 128mm height didn't help it overcome its width handicap over Classic. Even with grasp assisting contraptions fitted my best single thumb PP achieves about half of 9900.

    How tall is a K1? Who cares? The thing feels like it needs clearance lights, imo. Lol. Without contraptions, it's about 1/3 of single thumb 9650. Interestingly, virtually same ridiculously oversized K2LE can type double my K1 rate... With contraptions. Clearly more that JUST size matters. Lol.

    Am I the ONLY one to test and quantify this stuff? Surely manufacturers have...??? Maybe I'm the only one who shives a git? Go figure.

    There IS a hand size threshold that evolution hasn't yet adapted. Lol. Might our distant progeny evolve 36" thumbs? Lol.
    No.... it's that typing isn't the main feature for 99.99% of smartphone users. They spend more time looking than typing, to size of the display is what gets "valued".

    I can see use cases for some industries where these might be of benefit.... but as you have pointed out (over and over), takes a perfect device to get just the right conditions. And too there would be the training needed to build those levels of proficiency in users. Why don't we all know shorthand or how to use a stenographer keyboard?
    10-15-20 10:23 AM
  7. Mirko935's Avatar
    Is it?

    The Priv was $699.

    The otherwise identical LG G4 was $599, but $399 with carrier subsidy.

    The LG was 25% lighter.
    I still don't see a single one of those figures at 100 %. Not to mention that switching phones every time I'm browsing the web and receive an e-mail or any other textual message takes so much more time than pushing the display portion of a slider up that the benefit in WPM will end up on the side of the slider. Or even that of a simple slab, for that matter.


    Sure, BUT, if in exchange for "infotainment" capability your truck could only haul 1/3 as much payload, would that prove rational?

    How many clients would compensate a driver for three trips just so that driver can enjoy infotainment in an occasional traffic jam? Lol.

    How many consumers would quietly pay the prices those clients must charge for products reflecting tripled transport costs? ??

    Thing is, commercial vehicles can accommodate an amazing array of comfort and STILL earn their keep... For a PRICE. Few "average people" even consider paying pro prices for their consumer oriented products. That's as it should be. The total absence of a pro space communications prioritized handset has inflicted a significant burden onto quite a few of us "producers". Consumers pay the price even if not aware. Lol.
    What you're calling for isn't a normal truck, it's a Liebherr T 284, a vehicle with one purpose unusable for anything else and which has nothing to do whatsoever with any other car or truck, except for the fact it has 4 wheels, and that 99.99 % of the planet doesn't know exists nor would they have any kind of an idea what to do with it if you were to give them one for free.
    New BlackBerry 5G Pricing Speculation-t284_showcase02.png

    And you're asking for that in a world in which Dodge RAM and Ford F-150 don't exist. Sure, the thing is very impressive, as is your 120 WPM on a phone, but not every "professional" needs to haul 400 t of rock and not every "professional" needs to type >100 WPM for 7 hours a day on a phone. And neither those who haul cargo with their regular trucks are just "consumers" nor is a phone that can type only 60 or 80 WPM necessarily a mere "consumer" device. The world isn't that black-and-white.

    I'll be very happy for you if you get the small >120 WPM phone with a tiny screen you're wishing for, but neither my professional nor my private life would benefit from such a device in the slightest. Just as people using pickup or highway trucks wouldn't benefit from an ultra-class mining truck despite its far superior payload capacity.
    10-15-20 11:28 AM
  8. the_boon's Avatar
    switching phones every time I'm browsing the web and receive an e-mail or any other textual message takes so much more time than pushing the display portion of a slider up that the benefit in WPM will end up on the side of the slider. Or even that of a simple slab, for that matter.
    I agree that it makes more sense to single carry a slider than to dual carry a slab and a candybar PKB.

    However in the case of the Priv (especially in 2020), all the time I gain by typing more accurately on its PKB as opposed to on a slab is lost waiting for the snapdragon 808 to catch up lol
    10-15-20 02:51 PM
  9. Mirko935's Avatar
    I agree that it makes more sense to single carry a slider than to dual carry a slab and a candybar PKB.

    However in the case of the Priv (especially in 2020), all the time I gain by typing more accurately on its PKB as opposed to on a slab is lost waiting for the snapdragon 808 to catch up lol
    Can't really argue with that... That's the reason we're pushing for a new one.
    I've solved the battery problems by changing it, but unfortunately I know of no way to install an SD865 and a few extra GB of RAM.
    the_boon likes this.
    10-15-20 03:16 PM
  10. the_boon's Avatar
    but unfortunately I know of no way to install an SD865 and a few extra GB of RAM.
    I'd have been happy even with the KEYone's 625 lol
    10-15-20 03:20 PM
  11. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I'd have been happy even with the KEYone's 625 lol
    Till Peter spouted out it would be a flagship.... I kind of expected the new SD690 with 5G that is coming next year.

    I think it will be plenty for most use cases of a productivity tool. Looking at it's specs... it's pretty impressive. I could see a phone based on this running $500 - $600 from some startup with no hopes at any volume, and all the extra cost involved in the PKB and Licensing, and Security. I think most would be happy if it only cost that, without a subscription and will some guaranteed updates and patches.
    10-15-20 03:38 PM
  12. idssteve's Avatar
    I still don't see a single one of those figures at 100 %. Not to mention that switching phones every time I'm browsing the web and receive an e-mail or any other textual message takes so much more time than pushing the display portion of a slider up that the benefit in WPM will end up on the side of the slider. Or even that of a simple slab, for that matter.




    What you're calling for isn't a normal truck, it's a Liebherr T 284, a vehicle with one purpose unusable for anything else and which has nothing to do whatsoever with any other car or truck, except for the fact it has 4 wheels, and that 99.99 % of the planet doesn't know exists nor would they have any kind of an idea what to do with it if you were to give them one for free.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    And you're asking for that in a world in which Dodge RAM and Ford F-150 don't exist. Sure, the thing is very impressive, as is your 120 WPM on a phone, but not every "professional" needs to haul 400 t of rock and not every "professional" needs to type >100 WPM for 7 hours a day on a phone. And neither those who haul cargo with their regular trucks are just "consumers" nor is a phone that can type only 60 or 80 WPM necessarily a mere "consumer" device. The world isn't that black-and-white.

    I'll be very happy for you if you get the small >120 WPM phone with a tiny screen you're wishing for, but neither my professional nor my private life would benefit from such a device in the slightest. Just as people using pickup or highway trucks wouldn't benefit from an ultra-class mining truck despite its far superior payload capacity.
    Well, that's exactly my point... I'm not asking for anything that BB hasn't done before. In fact, much of what BB has done since 2013 is much analogous to Liebherr ceasing production of commercial trucks and replacing product lines with mopeds... Lol. Yes, they'd probably sell more mopeds than T 284s. What would their bottom line look like after such transition? How successful would their professional skill sets adapt to the consumer product? Possibly comparable with BB's failures at consumerism? Lol.

    Where's it written that only a majority must be served to enjoy success? Or even survival?? Market niches abound among countless products. That T 284 is a niche product. It got produced, sold AND purchased as a niche product. I would assume engineering, production, sales and purchaser etc all mutually benefited? ?? How might Liebherr's historically loyal customers feel if NO suitable T 284 alternative replacement would EVER be found after the consumer transition? Especially if the transitions resulted in demise of the company itself?

    I'm a businessman. I get why BB et al lusted after SamApple's pot of consumer gold. If it had worked out for BB I'd have congratulated them and accepted my fate. The irritation I've felt since 2013 derives from loss of a valued tool and ALSO demise of BB itself. Lose lose. Sad.

    Carving out portions from Samsung's saturated dinner table invites substantial risk from the hungry giant. Lol. Finding some level of survival among crumbs falling from the giant's table to the floor is what we call niche. I wouldn't venture to speculate IF a legacy niche can achieve some acceptable level of survival for a BB brand. Way far past & passed my pay grade. I'm supposed to be "retired". Lol. BUT, I WILL speculate that if legacy userbase is their target, Bold 9900 still represents a "gold standard" among THAT userbase.

    If abandoning legacy earns consumer success, all power to them. But MY message is that legacy migration will not succeed with products that don't type faster than, or at least as fast as, what they're currently using. Some of us value wpm as much as you value screenestate. Maybe more? Lol. I suspect JC can quantify that userbase thru NOC, etc. Fwiw.

    BTW, just to be clear, my handset wpm has never approached 120. A coworker does that routinely, tho. Quite a sight to behold! And hear! Lol.
    Last edited by idssteve; 10-16-20 at 04:00 AM.
    10-15-20 11:33 PM
  13. idssteve's Avatar
    No.... it's that typing isn't the main feature for 99.99% of smartphone users. They spend more time looking than typing, to size of the display is what gets "valued".

    I can see use cases for some industries where these might be of benefit.... but as you have pointed out (over and over), takes a perfect device to get just the right conditions. And too there would be the training needed to build those levels of proficiency in users. Why don't we all know shorthand or how to use a stenographer keyboard?
    Haha... Well... At least SOME of us do shorthand and have used stenograph. I'm still proficient with Morse... Even taught coworkers some rudimentary semaphore for communicating across a noisy plant floor... Lol.

    Communication has proven a BIG contributor to humanity's dominance. Essential skill sets for life. ShudB expected of all HS grads, imo. Including typing and handset use...

    This technology is here to stay. For the first time in human history, my thoughts can show up as text in a hand on the other side of the planet... In seconds!! An incalculable asset of global collaboration! (If used. Lol) Why not master skill sets that will be used throughout a lifetime?
    10-16-20 12:02 AM
  14. tado261's Avatar
    I bought a Pixel 5 over the S20FE.

    The 765G is plenty fast.

    But I like the smaller size, want the extra 2GB of memory, prefer vanilla Android, like the quick updates, appreciate the extra battery life, and prefer the better camera software.

    On another note, I wouldn't touch anything out of China today with a 10 foot pole. To me there are 3 choices in Android: Nokia and Google phones (made in Vietnam), and Samsung phones (made in South Korea).
    Samsung phone also are made in Vietnam. From Vietnam with love. Lol

    Posted via CB10
    10-16-20 04:37 AM
  15. Mirko935's Avatar
    Well, that's exactly my point... I'm not asking for anything that BB hasn't done before. In fact, much of what BB has done since 2013 is much analogous to Liebherr ceasing production of commercial trucks and replacing product lines with mopeds... Lol. Yes, they'd probably sell more mopeds than T 284s. What would their bottom line look like after such transition? How successful would their professional skill sets adapt to the consumer product? Possibly comparable with BB's failures at consumerism? Lol.

    Where's it written that only a majority must be served to enjoy success? Or even survival?? Market niches abound among countless products. That T 284 is a niche product. It got produced, sold AND purchased as a niche product. I would assume engineering, production, sales and purchaser etc all mutually benefited? ?? How might their historically loyal customers feel if NO suitable T 284 alternative replacement would EVER be found after the transition? Especially if the transitions resulted in demise of the company itself?

    I'm a businessman. I get why BB et al lusted after SamApple's pot of consumer gold. If it had worked out for BB I'd have congratulated them and accepted my fate. The irritation I've felt since 2013 derives from loss of a valued tool and ALSO demise of BB itself. Lose lose. Sad.

    Carving out portions from Samsung's saturated dinner table invites substantial risk from the hungry giant. Lol. Finding some level of survival among crumbs falling from the table to the floor is what we call niche. I wouldn't venture to speculate IF a legacy niche can achieve some acceptable level of survival for a BB brand. Way far past my pay grade. Lol. BUT, I WILL speculate that if legacy userbase is their target, Bold 9900 still represents a "gold standard" for THAT userbase.

    If abandoning legacy earns consumer success, all power to them. But MY message is that legacy migration will not succeed with products that don't type faster than, or at least as fast as, what they're currently using. Some of us value wpm as much as you value screenestate. Maybe more? Lol. I suspect JC can quantify that userbase thru NOC, etc. Fwiw.

    BTW, just to be clear, my handset wpm has never approached 120. A coworker does that routinely, tho. Quite a sight to behold! And hear! Lol.
    They don't have mopeds lol, but they do also produce consumer home appliances (refrigerators and freezers). I'm pretty sure they'd seek to expand that branch in case their pro equipment sector starts failing...

    And it's very likely they'd try changing their approach if their sales started dropping compared to CAT's as much as BB's did compared to Android and iOS. I really don't see which loyal customers you're talking about. After 2010 they were rapidly losing customers to their competitors which were growing 100% per year (even Windows from 2011 to 2013) and obviously weren't attracting any new ones.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile...m#Market_share

    Their problem is that they started moving toward consumer, user-friendly devices too late, not the fact they did it. Same as with Windows Mobile. Just as much as your ideal smartphone is a device which lets you comfortably type 7 hours a day, my ideal smartphone is a small PC (Pocket PC? ). I basically used my Windows Mobile phone instead of a computer for a year, something that would be a horrible experience with the dumbed-down mobile operating systems we have now. And the whole world has gone the other way so even something as simple as web browsing is now a pain for me because most web sites even when visited from a PC look like the WAP pages of old, instead of what I would find logical, that we browse desktop sites on smartphones. I can't stand the fact that scrolling and navigating through millions of submenus now comprises 70 % of time I'm on a website or in an app. I could fit more content on the 2.8" screen of my WM phone than on a 6.5" screen of a 2020 phone, and do whatever I'm using it for in half the time. So... Similar to what you're saying, Microsoft made Windows Mobile once upon a time, Samsung made Windows Mobile phones back then, even sliders: https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_b76...iapro-2834.php Do you think they'd make a new one if I asked them to do it?
    If I could freely choose, I'd wish for an x86 phone running normal Windows, but I know that won't happen anytime soon, if ever.

    Times change, mostly for the worse, and all of us with obscure wishes need to adapt because the majority won't. Simple as that.
    10-16-20 04:44 AM
  16. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Haha... Well... At least SOME of us do shorthand and have used stenograph. I'm still proficient with Morse... Even taught coworkers some rudimentary semaphore for communicating across a noisy plant floor... Lol.

    Communication has proven a BIG contributor to humanity's dominance. Essential skill sets for life. ShudB expected of all HS grads, imo. Including typing and handset use...

    This technology is here to stay. For the first time in human history, my thoughts can show up as text in a hand on the other side of the planet... In seconds!! An incalculable asset of global collaboration! (If used. Lol) Why not master skill sets that will be used throughout a lifetime?
    No it's our big brains and adaptability.... to learn new things. In the end retire and let others handle things. Maybe they'll be able to figure out how best to use today's technology.
    10-16-20 07:17 AM
  17. idssteve's Avatar
    No it's our big brains and adaptability.... to learn new things. In the end retire and let others handle things. Maybe they'll be able to figure out how best to use today's technology.
    Ah ha... Faster processors and bigger memory banks still must get filled... preferably with youthful experience. There's certainly no better teacher than youthful hands-on experience! Some experiences are more "evolutionarily expensive" than others, tho. lol. Especially experiences involving distracted communications! lol.

    All ROPs (retired old pharts) can do is offer advice. Whether the big brain operating the steering wheel listens or pursues their own "re-invention of the wheel" is on them. It's THEIR "guided discovery" now!

    Dear old Gramps was fond of pointing out that life's not about what you know. It's about what you're willing to learn! Learn the "new" but don't forget the "old" until "new" PROVES its merrit! Imo. fwiw...
    ...
    10-16-20 08:00 AM
  18. idssteve's Avatar
    They don't have mopeds lol, but they do also produce consumer home appliances (refrigerators and freezers). I'm pretty sure they'd seek to expand that branch in case their pro equipment sector starts failing...

    And it's very likely they'd try changing their approach if their sales started dropping compared to CAT's as much as BB's did compared to Android and iOS. I really don't see which loyal customers you're talking about. After 2010 they were rapidly losing customers to their competitors which were growing 100% per year (even Windows from 2011 to 2013) and obviously weren't attracting any new ones.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile...m#Market_share

    Their problem is that they started moving toward consumer, user-friendly devices too late, not the fact they did it. Same as with Windows Mobile. Just as much as your ideal smartphone is a device which lets you comfortably type 7 hours a day, my ideal smartphone is a small PC (Pocket PC? ). I basically used my Windows Mobile phone instead of a computer for a year, something that would be a horrible experience with the dumbed-down mobile operating systems we have now. And the whole world has gone the other way so even something as simple as web browsing is now a pain for me because most web sites even when visited from a PC look like the WAP pages of old, instead of what I would find logical, that we browse desktop sites on smartphones. I can't stand the fact that scrolling and navigating through millions of submenus now comprises 70 % of time I'm on a website or in an app. I could fit more content on the 2.8" screen of my WM phone than on a 6.5" screen of a 2020 phone, and do whatever I'm using it for in half the time. So... Similar to what you're saying, Microsoft made Windows Mobile once upon a time, Samsung made Windows Mobile phones back then, even sliders: https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_b76...iapro-2834.php Do you think they'd make a new one if I asked them to do it?
    If I could freely choose, I'd wish for an x86 phone running normal Windows, but I know that won't happen anytime soon, if ever.

    Times change, mostly for the worse, and all of us with obscure wishes need to adapt because the majority won't. Simple as that.
    We, the minority, have no choice but to "adapt"... But also DEMAND. Supply & demand as essential characteristics of "healthy" markets. Characteristics that should "normally" be expected to drive tendencies toward greater product diversity, rather than less. Imo. Abject absence of product diversity might possibly indicate less than healthy market forces at work? Maybe like Android UX utterly stupid WASTE of screenestate? Lol.

    Few ever managed to truly "see" us "loyal legacy". We were too few and too clouded by dust of panic over market share trends, 2010-2012. Market share is most relevant to Apple & Samsung market models. Not really quite so relevant to RIM's BBOS SAF model. Much of Apple's market share growth could be attributed to their new market growth itself, back then!

    Yes, RIM wasn't participating in the market explosion but global userbase wasn't suffering anything like the flaming nose dive driven by RIM's panicked response of shoving unready Barely Baked BB10's out the nest before flight feathers had sprouted. 2013. Global userbase peaked in 2011 but was still greater in 2012 than 2010... Hard to see a precipitous free fall in those #s. Imo. Despite stupidly premature bbos eol announcements, 2011. Also despite absence of flagship followup, 2012.

    IF RIM's strategy was to win over AppleDroid users, they clearly failed. IF RIM's strategy was to migrate legacy users, they clearly, spectacularly, failed. They'd produced a product so compromised and so immature that it really barely generated yawns of tolerance from their own legacy. Let alone consumer outsiders. Lol.

    Even as recently as 2016, I recall "consensus" BBOS userbase of 20+ million...?? Twice BB10, afaik. Zero effort seemed directed to migrate those users... Other than worn out "get over it" or "just adapt" condescension... Fully ignoring that no amount of adapting can insert rows into native BB10 DTG spreadsheets... Nor grow thumbs... Lol.

    I spend a great deal of time among legacy users. Something BB et al, and even CB, has seemed averse to do. Imo? The single most common theme is love of the products. Imperfections and all. But vehement distrust of the company. Many, many, loyal legacy friends have tried BB10 and all flavors of BBdroid and have, almost unanimously, went Apple. NOT because they really like Apple's products but feel that Apple reciprocates loyalties in ways those users appreciate. No matter how great a product feature might be loved, NO one wants to suffer platform learning curves any more often than necessary! Once per life?? Possibly worth ANY price??? Lol.
    10-16-20 12:40 PM
  19. Mirko935's Avatar
    We, the minority, have no choice but to "adapt"... But also DEMAND. Supply & demand as essential characteristics of "healthy" markets. Characteristics that should "normally" be expected to drive tendencies toward greater product diversity, rather than less. Imo. Abject absence of product diversity might possibly indicate less than healthy market forces at work? Maybe like Android UX utterly stupid WASTE of screenestate? Lol.

    Few ever managed to truly "see" us "loyal legacy". We were too few and too clouded by dust of panic over market share trends, 2010-2012. Market share is most relevant to Apple & Samsung market models. Not really quite so relevant to RIM's BBOS SAF model. Much of Apple's market share growth could be attributed to their new market growth itself, back then!

    Yes, RIM wasn't participating in the market explosion but global userbase wasn't suffering anything like the flaming nose dive driven by RIM's panicked response of shoving unready Barely Baked BB10's out the nest before flight feathers had sprouted. 2013. Global userbase peaked in 2011 but was still greater in 2012 than 2010... Hard to see a precipitous free fall in those #s. Imo. Despite stupidly premature bbos eol announcements, 2011. Also despite absence of flagship followup, 2012.

    IF RIM's strategy was to win over AppleDroid users, they clearly failed. IF RIM's strategy was to migrate legacy users, they clearly, spectacularly, failed. They'd produced a product so compromised and so immature that it really barely generated yawns of tolerance from their own legacy. Let alone consumer outsiders. Lol.

    Even as recently as 2016, I recall "consensus" BBOS userbase of 20+ million...?? Twice BB10, afaik. Zero effort seemed directed to migrate those users... Other than worn out "get over it" or "just adapt" condescension... Fully ignoring that no amount of adapting can insert rows into native BB10 DTG spreadsheets... Nor grow thumbs... Lol.

    I spend a great deal of time among legacy users. Something BB et al, and even CB, has seemed averse to do. Imo? The single most common theme is love of the products. Imperfections and all. But vehement distrust of the company. Many, many, loyal legacy friends have tried BB10 and all flavors of BBdroid and have, almost unanimously, went Apple. NOT because they really like Apple's products but feel that Apple reciprocates loyalties in ways those users appreciate. No matter how great a product feature might be loved, NO one wants to suffer platform learning curves any more often than necessary! Once per life?? Possibly worth ANY price??? Lol.
    So, according to you, the recipe for success would have been just keeping on producing a 2007 device for the existing user base without any effort of attracting new users? For years, decades? That wouldn't eventually lead to zero? People don't move to other platforms if it offers them something more, new, cheaper? Existing users don't grow older, retire, die?

    It would certainly seem that legacy users which love old products but hate both the company that produced them and the company's new products does more harm than good to said company.

    Btw, you say you have to DEMAND. Are you as active in demanding of Samsung, LG, HTC, Motorola, Nokia that they bring back the PKB in the exact form factor you desire? All of them produced PKB devices for years. Why is BlackBerry the only company supposed to bring back such devices to market and the few that they manage to bring are then scrutinized to the tiniest detail, counting every WPM? Terrible if the screen is small, terrible if it's large, terrible if keys are small, terrible if keys are large? While no one else even has any keys lol, yet they receive zero criticism. Weird world.
    idssteve likes this.
    10-17-20 05:20 AM
  20. jackcarr's Avatar
    $750 - $800
    $825 for the Space Purple Black or Goblin Green model
    10-17-20 06:57 AM
  21. yeo123's Avatar
    I predict the new 5G BlackBerry phone will cost 700-900usd .
    10-17-20 09:08 AM
  22. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    So, according to you, the recipe for success would have been just keeping on producing a 2007 device for the existing user base without any effort of attracting new users? For years, decades? That wouldn't eventually lead to zero? People don't move to other platforms if it offers them something more, new, cheaper? Existing users don't grow older, retire, die?

    It would certainly seem that legacy users which love old products but hate both the company that produced them and the company's new products does more harm than good to said company.

    Btw, you say you have to DEMAND. Are you as active in demanding of Samsung, LG, HTC, Motorola, Nokia that they bring back the PKB in the exact form factor you desire? All of them produced PKB devices for years. Why is BlackBerry the only company supposed to bring back such devices to market and the few that they manage to bring are then scrutinized to the tiniest detail, counting every WPM? Terrible if the screen is small, terrible if it's large, terrible if keys are small, terrible if keys are large? While no one else even has any keys lol, yet they receive zero criticism. Weird world.
    People like Steve and even myself used BlackBerry for BBOS as the software as much as for BB PKB as hardware. For me BB10 was junk at introduction. I’ve used all of the other PKB OEMs and even owned some of them. For me BB PKB was the only PKB for me but I also felt BBOS was better than BB10 for email, texting and phone calls. I needed apps but, in that regard, BB10 failed miserably compared with BBAndroid, from my perspective.

    The reality is that BlackBerry and BBOS only succeeded due to SAF revenue model. BB10 and BBAndroid failed in part to no SAF model. If OM succeeds, it will be due to SAF model again. However, I’m not sure what the SAF product would be.

    Ironically, the BBOS hardware and software lasted as long as BB10 and BBAndroid, so to Steve’s point, from a business and longevity perspective, the reality is that it would have been in BlackBerry’s interest to have never wasted time and resources on BB10, without having SAF model developed first. Even BBAndroid or just Android would have needed some kind of SAF model to not eventually fail.

    That just returns back to OM strategy. Without SAF model, it too will fail.
    idssteve likes this.
    10-17-20 09:29 AM
  23. idssteve's Avatar
    So, according to you, the recipe for success would have been just keeping on producing a 2007 device for the existing user base without any effort of attracting new users? For years, decades? That wouldn't eventually lead to zero? People don't move to other platforms if it offers them something more, new, cheaper? Existing users don't grow older, retire, die?

    It would certainly seem that legacy users which love old products but hate both the company that produced them and the company's new products does more harm than good to said company.

    Btw, you say you have to DEMAND. Are you as active in demanding of Samsung, LG, HTC, Motorola, Nokia that they bring back the PKB in the exact form factor you desire? All of them produced PKB devices for years. Why is BlackBerry the only company supposed to bring back such devices to market and the few that they manage to bring are then scrutinized to the tiniest detail, counting every WPM? Terrible if the screen is small, terrible if it's large, terrible if keys are small, terrible if keys are large? While no one else even has any keys lol, yet they receive zero criticism. Weird world.
    I'm using the term "DEMAND" as in "supply & demand" economics. Of course the econ101 materials my children brought home from college were NOthing like econ101 in MY day... Lol. "Demand", in this case, represents a customer's negotiating position. The customer is assumed to know what's best for themselves. Which leads to "the customer is always right"... In MY day's version of econ. Lol.

    Suppliers get my $$ only after meeting my demands for a suitable product. I'm not telling, nor even advising, them how to run their business. I'm simply stating what they must do to separate me from my $$.

    NO one that I know of is "demanding", nor even requesting of ANYone, including BB, to irrationally suffer red just to satisfy our "demands". NOR should ANY company, especially BB, "demand" that their loyal users should behave irrationally and exchange our $$ AND valued tools for less capable products that quantitatively provide less of what we need! Monopolistic extortion aside. Lol.

    Again, AGAIN!, if BB could somehow compete with Samsung et al, they SHOULD do so! Make big bucks on slabs and forget about us "complaining" loyal legacy users! Problem is, they can't. RIM NEVER commanded a fraction of resources they'd have needed to find "success" in the face of multi revenue source tech giants like Apple, Samsung, etc... Their ONLY hope was to SURVIVE until the dust of struggle between giants settled a bit in consumer space! No, that's no recipe for "success" defined in Apple speak. Survival is the first step of any success, tho. Lol.

    Survival thru niche space has represented tiny BB's best of bad options since Steve Jobs rolled his mighty Apple into mobile space. Imo. AND, RIM sat uniquely positioned to leverage some unique capabilities into a niche of survival. Until the dust settled a bit, at least. Imo. Instead, they listened to voices like yours and panicked themselves into a struggle they had no prayer of succeeding at. Nor even surviving. Imo.


    How BB et al survives is up to THEM. Not My problem. The Storm fiasco is on THEM. The non-email PB is on THEM. The "Barely Baked When?" fiasco is on THEM. The oversized K fiasco is on THEM. And, yes, the Priv failure is on THEM. NONE of that was MY doing! Watching after BB et al's self interest is not MY job.

    BUT, what is on ME is to communicate clearly that ANYone who wants MY money for replacing a valued tool of my trade will have to SELL me a tool that does what I want BETTER than what I'm using. Absent that, at least as well!! What's so hard to grasp about that?

    You, obviously, equate pkb with pkb. They're obviously all the same, in your eyes. You obviously equate 2007 tech with 2011 tech. You obviously have never truly experienced what RIM had accomplished by 2011 thru Dakota. They did NOT sit around doing NOthing during those critical 4 years. SOME at RIM recognized the existential struggle and leveraged the best they had to offer in products they KNEW how to produce! Before "forgetting" by Mike's command... Lol.

    Dakota represented an exquisite accomplishment that embraced enterprise user feedback in SOME ways NO other manufacturer has ever done as well! Afaik. Yes, they failed at many things and userbase shrinkage was inevitable. BUT "Samsung, LG, HTC, Motorola, Nokia" simply never achieved anything comparable for some attributes SOME of us greatly value! Please go try a 9900 while it's still possible and at least speak from position of more full perspective...?? You might be glad you did?

    If BB et al doesn't need our $$, fine. But if they've, once again, decided our $$ are worth pursuit, us loyal legacy are simply "demanding" that they don't attempt to tell us, again and again, that the Crescent wrench they're selling will work "just as well" for OUR needs as our SnapOn wrench set! Nor, that mopeds are suitable replacements for 400 ton mine trucks. Lol.
    Gene Fells likes this.
    10-17-20 10:09 AM
  24. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    I'm using the term "DEMAND" as in "supply & demand" economics. Of course the econ101 materials my children brought home from college were NOthing like econ101 in MY day... Lol. "Demand", in this case, represents a customer's negotiating position. The customer is assumed to know what's best for themselves. Which leads to "the customer is always right"... In MY day's version of econ. Lol.

    Suppliers get my $$ only after meeting my demands for a suitable product. I'm not telling, nor even advising, them how to run their business. I'm simply stating what they must do to separate me from my $$.

    NO one that I know of is "demanding", nor even requesting of ANYone, including BB, to irrationally suffer red just to satisfy our "demands". NOR should ANY company, especially BB, "demand" that their loyal users should behave irrationally and exchange our $$ AND valued tools for less capable products that quantitatively provide less of what we need! Monopolistic extortion aside. Lol.

    Again, AGAIN!, if BB could somehow compete with Samsung et al, they SHOULD do so! Make big bucks on slabs and forget about us "complaining" loyal legacy users! Problem is, they can't. RIM NEVER commanded a fraction of resources they'd have needed to find "success" in the face of multi revenue source tech giants like Apple, Samsung, etc... Their ONLY hope was to SURVIVE until the dust of struggle between giants settled a bit in consumer space! No, that's no recipe for "success" defined in Apple speak. Survival is the first step of any success, tho. Lol.

    Survival thru niche space has represented tiny BB's best of bad options since Steve Jobs rolled his mighty Apple into mobile space. Imo. AND, RIM sat uniquely positioned to leverage some unique capabilities into a niche of survival. Until the dust settled a bit, at least. Imo. Instead, they listened to voices like yours and panicked themselves into a struggle they had no prayer of succeeding at. Nor even surviving. Imo.


    How BB et al survives is up to THEM. Not My problem. The Storm fiasco is on THEM. The non-email PB is on THEM. The "Barely Baked When?" fiasco is on THEM. The oversized K fiasco is on THEM. And, yes, the Priv failure is on THEM. NONE of that was MY doing! Watching after BB et al's self interest is not MY job.

    BUT, what is on ME is to communicate clearly that ANYone who wants MY money for replacing a valued tool of my trade will have to SELL me a tool that does what I want BETTER than what I'm using. Absent that, at least as well!! What's so hard to grasp about that?

    You, obviously, equate pkb with pkb. They're obviously all the same, in your eyes. You obviously equate 2007 tech with 2011 tech. You obviously have never truly experienced what RIM had accomplished by 2011 thru Dakota. They did NOT sit around doing NOthing during those critical 4 years. SOME at RIM recognized the existential struggle and leveraged the best they had to offer in products they KNEW how to produce! Before "forgetting" by Mike's command... Lol.

    Dakota represented an exquisite accomplishment that embraced enterprise user feedback in SOME ways NO other manufacturer has ever done as well! Afaik. Yes, they failed at many things and userbase shrinkage was inevitable. BUT "Samsung, LG, HTC, Motorola, Nokia" simply never achieved anything comparable for some attributes SOME of us greatly value! Please go try a 9900 while it's still possible and at least speak from position of more full perspective...?? You might be glad you did?

    If BB et al doesn't need our $$, fine. But if they've, once again, decided our $$ are worth pursuit, us loyal legacy are simply "demanding" that they don't attempt to tell us, again and again, that the Crescent wrench they're selling will work "just as well" for OUR needs as our SnapOn wrench set! Nor, that mopeds are suitable replacements for 400 ton mine trucks. Lol.
    If OM can figure out how to make a phone that enterprises will pay for because they make good business sense rather than phones consumers want to pay for, that will be interesting and maybe worth a look. The current crop of consumer Androids and iPhones are full of useless features I don't want to pay for, and are missing many features for which I would pay.

    Z10 = BB10 + VKB > iOS + Android
    Last edited by bb10adopter111; 10-18-20 at 08:51 AM.
    idssteve likes this.
    10-17-20 04:12 PM
  25. the_boon's Avatar
    I predict the new 5G BlackBerry phone will cost 700-900usd .
    If it's in that price range I sure hope it's a Priv 2, for its sake.
    10-17-20 07:24 PM
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