02-07-21 05:45 PM
165 ... 34567
tools
  1. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Well part of the problem with BB10 is that it expected an all or nothing commitment from developers. The company chose to build developers' tools that were in no way compatible with what was used with mobile platforms at the time; not APIs and not languages. BlackBerry didn't even meet half way. If it chose to implement Flow using Android, but continued to use QNX 6.5 developers would have had far less work to support BB's Android (non-TM'd). And BB would have been ahead delivering a gesture based UX for Android. Similar to AMD preempting Intel with x64?

    This problem was the same with SailFish which also used Qt with a proprietary UI API. But worse than BB as it had no App Store. Like BlackBerry, it added support for Android, but it was likely outdated as was the runtime in BB10.

    The problem is similar with the Android (non-TM'd) offerings with no place for developers to sell their wares. And the APIs were non-standard or free use for device developers (e.g. Amazon's offerings). I am not aware of any real effort by Amazon to get its App Store loaded by phone owners onto their devices. The Fire Phone was panned due to its UX more so than due to issues with app availability.

    What is needed is an organization that will take AOSP and fork it and make it available to developers and device makers. To make a third platform which has fewer restrictions than Android (with TM) and to judiciously choose the level of control that allows device developers to innovate and for software developers to continue support of the platform is tall order, but the current AOSP is mature, but lagging the TM'd version. Could be an opportune time.

    Can't suggest any existing organization to take this on. It could perhaps fund itself by operating an app store. BlueStacks may have the expertise to do this, but I believe its raison d'être is to bring proprietary Android (TM'd) to macOS and Windows. There may be a conflict of interest, if it takes this on. I have been convinced BlackBerry would not have any interest in pursuing this.

    Google should understand that this project could help them in countering accusations of antitrust.
    Apple or Google alone has the economic resources to push their OS from an incumbent standpoint. Microsoft has the same level of resources and couldn’t succeed with a third OS because the reward isn’t there for the risk or the return.

    Amazon plus every other nation-state backed entity simply uses Android based fork and the Harmony OS is struggling even with the PRC level resources. The ideas are interesting theoretically but have zero probability succeeding realistically....
    01-22-21 11:42 AM
  2. DonHB's Avatar
    You keep pushing your narrative around, but ignore the simple fact that every single attempt at this has failed - despite your best efforts to explain each and every one of them away. Try to think of it from another perspective, - in that from every angle this has been approached, it has failed.
    AOSP does not deliver what is expected. So, investment is required, but AOSP uses the Apache 2.0 license making a forked version distributable without source. So, device makers can differentiate. The issue is what commonality needs to exist to perpetuate software developer interest in a what could be a more open yet more private platform. This would be best managed by an organization apart from device makers.
    01-22-21 11:47 AM
  3. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    AOSP does not deliver what is expected. So, investment is required, but AOSP uses the Apache 2.0 license making a forked version distributable without source. So, device makers can differentiate. The issue is what commonality needs to exist to perpetuate software developer interest in a what could be a more open yet more private platform.
    Who’s target audience of prospective customers?
    01-22-21 11:50 AM
  4. joeldf's Avatar
    The issue is what commonality needs to exist to perpetuate software developer interest in a what could be a more open yet more private platform.
    The "commonality" is access to existing apps that everyone is already using now. From social media to banking apps.
    01-22-21 11:51 AM
  5. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    WAY beyond the abilities of a few tech people that have come together to form this small company.
    01-22-21 11:55 AM
  6. DonHB's Avatar
    The "commonality" is access to existing apps that everyone is already using now. From social media to banking apps.
    I was referring to APIs and functionality of the forked AOSP. What is standardized for software compatibility and what should be left to device makers to allow substantial differentiation of their products. Perhaps a reworking of the open source Android Compatibility Test Suite could be made as part of the project.
    01-22-21 12:15 PM
  7. DonHB's Avatar
    WAY beyond the abilities of a few tech people that have come together to form this small company.
    We are talking about forking AOSP and producing an app store. Could use a tripped fuse Samsung devices as development targets and for software developers to use before a PKB device is available. One point, is that software could be sourced in similar ways to how automakers source components. Each device maker could chose apps to complete its offering. As I wrote this would be a more open Android (non-TM'd) to create a marketplace where smaller ISVs can compete without resulting in device bloatware. It is likely the app store would provide better terms to developers than either Apple or Google offer.

    I would be ready to wait for a device (preferable with PKB), if it has software sans Google.

    Would you be willing to wait?
    01-22-21 12:36 PM
  8. conite's Avatar
    I was referring to APIs and functionality of the forked AOSP. What is standardized for software compatibility and what should be left to device makers to allow substantial differentiation of their products. Perhaps a reworking of the open source Android Compatibility Test Suite could be made as part of the project.
    Huh?

    Why do you never even consider a basic economic smell test before you start writing?
    Last edited by conite; 01-22-21 at 01:30 PM.
    01-22-21 01:05 PM
  9. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    We are talking about forking AOSP and producing an app store. Could use a tripped fuse Samsung devices as development targets and for software developers to use before a PKB device is available. One point, is that software could be sourced in similar ways to how automakers source components. Each device maker could chose apps to complete its offering. As I wrote this would be a more open Android (non-TM'd) to create a marketplace where smaller ISVs can compete without resulting in device bloatware. It is likely the app store would provide better terms to developers than either Apple or Google offer.

    I would be ready to wait for a device (preferable with PKB), if it has software sans Google.

    Would you be willing to wait?
    I have no interest at all.... I'm fine with the status quo - as are 99% of people.

    So now OM or BlackBerry are making a forked Android/ASOP mobile OS and an rouge Android App store and you think other device makers are going to risk their relationship with Google and that developer are going to jump at "better terms" in a store with no customer base?

    M O N E Y.... where do the 100's of millions of dollars this is going to take, come from?
    01-22-21 01:28 PM
  10. eshropshire's Avatar
    Next step after convienence key which made switching between apps easier would be dedicated dual app keys. As it stands using two apps on a slab at tge same time is awkward, combined with no onscreen keyboard, OM would have a real advantage over other slabs. (Slider format of course)
    I find multiple apps pretty easy to manage on my Note 10+ with the SPen. Easy to have two apps on the screen and moving data between apps is simple.
    01-22-21 01:30 PM
  11. manny2's Avatar
    I find multiple apps pretty easy to manage on my Note 10+ with the SPen. Easy to have two apps on the screen and moving data between apps is simple.
    The s pen no doubt helps as does necessity if your working. The average person probably does find it cumbersome, got no stats though on multiple app usage.
    01-22-21 09:00 PM
  12. conite's Avatar
    The s pen no doubt helps as does necessity if your working. The average person probably does find it cumbersome, got no stats though on multiple app usage.
    The average person doesn't even know the feature exists, and wouldn't use it if they did.
    01-22-21 09:09 PM
  13. manny2's Avatar
    The average person doesn't even know the feature exists, and wouldn't use it if they did.
    Not true, keeping a chat window open while you do something is probably most common use case scenario. But for myself it took me years to even find the feature, had to google it and once i found it realized it was too much hassle, ill just switch apps. The main reason i think dual app use will become more common is that dual screens on desktop significantly improve productivity. That microsoft folding phone is banking on it
    01-22-21 09:17 PM
  14. conite's Avatar
    Not true, keeping a chat window open while you do something is probably most common use case scenario. But for myself it took me years to even find the feature, had to google it and once i found it realized it was too much hassle, ill just switch apps. The main reason i think dual app use will become more common is that dual screens on desktop significantly improve productivity. That microsoft folding phone is banking on it
    I'm not saying it can't be useful or that some people actually use it.

    But my comment stands.
    01-22-21 10:19 PM
  15. eshropshire's Avatar
    Not true, keeping a chat window open while you do something is probably most common use case scenario. But for myself it took me years to even find the feature, had to google it and once i found it realized it was too much hassle, ill just switch apps. The main reason i think dual app use will become more common is that dual screens on desktop significantly improve productivity. That microsoft folding phone is banking on it
    Samsung Notes had the feature long before Google had it added as a feature in Android. I personally liked the old Samsung implementation better than Google's. Easy to pull out split apps from the right side pull out screen and have the screen split. I use the feature on my Note phone and tablet.
    app_Developer likes this.
    01-23-21 11:36 AM
  16. punnzzells's Avatar
    I hope you can kill (disable) Google completely....with all that is going on now in the news, seems like Linux phones are making some waves.

    I personally do not have any social media, don't see the point in it, but......I am guessing that the phone needs to be sporting the newest this and that to get any attention....

    BlackBerry has their loyal fan base... you know that you have X amount of clients to make Y amount of phones....simple....
    whatnow00 likes this.
    01-26-21 04:30 AM
  17. conite's Avatar

    BlackBerry has their loyal fan base... you know that you have X amount of clients to make Y amount of phones....simple....
    Unless x isn't sufficient to even cover basic overhead.

    In any event, BlackBerry was happy to leave the phone business back in 2016.
    01-26-21 07:51 AM
  18. punnzzells's Avatar
    Unless x isn't sufficient to even cover basic overhead.

    In any event, BlackBerry was happy to leave the phone business back in 2016.
    Well, that's when you fire your entire team.....lol!
    01-26-21 08:58 AM
  19. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Unless x isn't sufficient to even cover basic overhead.

    In any event, BlackBerry was happy to leave the phone business back in 2016.
    That's has been BlackBerry's problem....

    Back in 2013, "X" might have been 80 million users.... but they were anything but blind loayl fans.
    Back in 2017, "X" might have been 8 million users.... but again they were anything but blind and loyal fans.
    Today "X" might be 2 million users.... all who want different things from OM, all who have different price points - so how many "Y" should OM make and hope to sell???

    I think it will be anything but "simple" to do that math and make it come out with the proper results.... which isn't selling the most units. OM's goal is to make a profit on the BlackBerry name selling smartphones (and maybe software).
    01-26-21 09:02 AM
  20. DonHB's Avatar
    I have no interest at all.... I'm fine with the status quo - as are 99% of people.

    So now OM or BlackBerry are making a forked Android/ASOP mobile OS and an rouge Android App store and you think other device makers are going to risk their relationship with Google and that developer are going to jump at "better terms" in a store with no customer base?

    M O N E Y.... where do the 100's of millions of dollars this is going to take, come from?
    Is this a case of doing less than TCL (PKB Android without the Hub and GSF free apps) and expecting a better outcome?

    I would forego the PKB for a Hub that works as well as the one in BB10 (public API required) and apps (contacts, calendar, camera, etc.) that do not use GSF. The alternative is to not include these apps (less work/cost to OM that can be passed on to customer) and have an app store that is GSF free. This would let OM (or BlackBerry) focus on the Hub and an alternative API to GSF. Let third parties provide the apps people want. Device setup can bring you to the store to choose apps.

    With the antitrust issues Google is having worldwide, I think developer's would be less concerned than you think. A better solution than MicroG along with better licensing terms may get developers to try out this alternative. All the more so, if the store is easy to install on all Android devices.
    Last edited by DonHB; 01-26-21 at 11:09 PM.
    01-26-21 10:21 PM
  21. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Is this a case of doing less than TCL (PKB Android without the Hub and GSF free apps) and expecting a better outcome?

    I would forego the PKB for a Hub that works as well as the one in BB10 (public API required) and apps (contacts, calendar, camera, etc.) that do not use GSF. The alternative is to not include these apps (less work/cost to OM that can be passed on to customer) and have an app store that is GSF free. This would let OM (or BlackBerry) focus on the Hub and an alternative API to GSF. Let third parties provide the apps people want. Device setup can bring you to the store to choose apps.

    With the antitrust issues Google is having worldwide, I think developer's would be less concerned than you think. A better solution than MicroG along with better licensing terms may get developers to try out this alternative. All the more so, if the store is easy to install on all Android devices.
    New app store is still a "chicken and the egg" situation - no users, developers aren't coming no matter the terms. No apps, then users aren't going to be interested. Microsoft spent B I L L I O N S trying to attract developers to their platform. And as poorly as they did, I expect BB spent 100's of millions. I kind of doubt that Huawei with their billions are going to have much sucess., but no way some startup is going to do it.

    100% OM is going to be doing less than TCL.... it will be a fraction of the scale that TCL did in their last year. As again scale affects everything in business. Cost of sales will be higher, cost of production and distribution will be higher, cost for support will be higher and yes the cost for custom software and apps is going to be higher. Thus prices will be higher and that's going to affect sales potentials.

    And then we circle back to Google doesn't allow OEM's the options you want (well not outside of China).... you either use full GPS package, or you don't. They are a business and they understandable protect their product.

    Back in 2006 - 2008, that's when this could have been done. In 2021, it's going to take something very disruptive to change how things work. And I don't mean some tiny startup that doesn't even have a developer on staff that we know of .
    app_Developer likes this.
    01-27-21 08:09 AM
  22. whatnow00's Avatar
    Is this a case of doing less than TCL (PKB Android without the Hub and GSF free apps) and expecting a better outcome?

    I would forego the PKB for a Hub that works as well as the one in BB10 (public API required) and apps (contacts, calendar, camera, etc.) that do not use GSF. The alternative is to not include these apps (less work/cost to OM that can be passed on to customer) and have an app store that is GSF free. This would let OM (or BlackBerry) focus on the Hub and an alternative API to GSF. Let third parties provide the apps people want. Device setup can bring you to the store to choose apps.

    With the antitrust issues Google is having worldwide, I think developer's would be less concerned than you think. A better solution than MicroG along with better licensing terms may get developers to try out this alternative. All the more so, if the store is easy to install on all Android devices.
    Not one single person would buy a device solely for the Hub. It's an overrated piece of software that isn't even maintained.

    The physical keyboard and security are the only hands they have to play.
    pdr733 and the_boon like this.
    01-27-21 10:20 AM
  23. conite's Avatar
    Not one single person would buy a device solely for the Hub. It's an overrated piece of software that isn't even maintained.

    The physical keyboard and security are the only hands they have to play.
    Nor have we seen any indication that Onward Mobility has the capability (resources) of either outsourcing or developing their own apps or UX.

    Not to mention that there don't seem to be any principals in the company with any development experience at all.
    whatnow00 likes this.
    01-27-21 10:28 AM
  24. the_boon's Avatar
    Nor have we seen any indication that Onward Mobility has the capability (resources) of either outsourcing or developing their own apps or UX.

    Not to mention that there don't seem to be any principals in the company with any development experience at all.
    I don't think OM should spend a dime on maintaining / developing the BB suite of apps.
    whatnow00 likes this.
    01-27-21 12:08 PM
  25. conite's Avatar
    I don't think OM should spend a dime on maintaining / developing the BB suite of apps.
    I'm really not just referring to the suite, but any applications at all.
    01-27-21 12:27 PM
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