02-07-21 05:45 PM
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  1. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    people who are positive about BlackBerry all own pixels or sammys now…
    Or iPhones.... someone posted that's what BlackBerry was itself deploying.
    Captain Neil and Trouveur like this.
    10-22-20 11:33 AM
  2. DonHB's Avatar
    Perhaps, using AOSP instead of licensing Android from Google would allow for better Privacy and a better Hub? Besides MicroG what is out there that replaces GSF? Maybe, Onward Mobility can take over BlackBerry World and use Cylance tech to evaluate app submissions for security and privacy? Highly unlikely to happen, but it isn't clear what, beyond the BlackBerry trademark, OM is getting from BlackBerry. Did OM actually indicate it is using BB PKB designs or patents?
    01-21-21 12:42 PM
  3. conite's Avatar
    Perhaps, using AOSP instead of licensing Android from Google would allow for better Privacy and a better Hub? Besides MicroG what is out there that replaces GSF? Maybe, Onward Mobility can take over BlackBerry World and use Cylance tech to evaluate app submissions for security and privacy? Highly unlikely to happen, but it isn't clear what, beyond the BlackBerry trademark, OM is getting from BlackBerry. Did OM actually indicate it is using BB PKB designs or patents?
    Producing a mainstream device without Google is a death warrant.

    For reference, see every single Android device ever without Google.

    OM stated they were designing a brand new keyboard from the ground up. No information about BlackBerry IP has been mentioned by either party.
    pdr733 likes this.
    01-21-21 12:53 PM
  4. manny2's Avatar
    OM stated they were designing a brand new keyboard from the ground up. .
    Still confused why they would do this except unless they really needed to save money, but doesnt developing your own keyboard cost more than patent rights?
    Perhaps they devloped a phone with chorded keyboard, that is technically the future of pkb keyboards
    01-21-21 05:51 PM
  5. conite's Avatar
    a phone with chorded keyboard, that is technically the future of pkb keyboards
    [Citation needed]

    Keysets have been around for 50 years.
    Last edited by conite; 01-21-21 at 06:14 PM.
    01-21-21 05:58 PM
  6. manny2's Avatar
    [Citation needed]

    Keysets have been around for 50 years.
    The convenience key on the key2 was a pretty big advance though wasn't it? Or did bbos have that already? Just progressively more chording of the keyboard seems to be the future, where else are they going to go.
    01-21-21 07:28 PM
  7. conite's Avatar
    The convenience key on the key2 was a pretty big advance though wasn't it? Or did bbos have that already? Just progressively more chording of the keyboard seems to be the future, where else are they going to go.
    The DTEKs had the convenience key back in 2016.
    01-21-21 07:36 PM
  8. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    The DTEKs had the convenience key back in 2016.
    With a VKB to boot....
    01-21-21 07:56 PM
  9. DonHB's Avatar
    Producing a mainstream device without Google is a death warrant.

    For reference, see every single Android device ever without Google.

    OM stated they were designing a brand new keyboard from the ground up. No information about BlackBerry IP has been mentioned by either party.
    Every attempt at an Android device without Google has focused on the device without a software library to back up the attempts at differentiation. There is no fork of AOSP that standardizes alternative APIs to GSF. This could also encourage alternatives to the "expected" apps on a device. There are sources for APKs, but there are no app stores that could help generate interest for developers to disencumber Google from their apps.

    You need devices and apps. Similar to the problem that Cascades was the native API on BB10 not Android. Starting with Android would not have prevented transitioning to another development solution or model, if the customers are there and GSF has not been licensed. The point is to minimize costs to developers when they adopt a new platform. Forking AOSP can do this.
    Last edited by DonHB; 01-21-21 at 08:40 PM.
    01-21-21 08:27 PM
  10. conite's Avatar
    Every attempt at an Android device without Google has focused on the device without a software library to back up the attempts at differentiation.
    Amazon appstore.
    app_Developer likes this.
    01-21-21 08:37 PM
  11. conite's Avatar
    Forking AOSP can do this.
    The last thing anyone wants to do is travel down that dark road again.

    Using Play Services allows developers to use all of the latest APIs without having to worry about device compatibility. It's a big win-win.
    Last edited by conite; 01-21-21 at 08:52 PM.
    01-21-21 08:38 PM
  12. DonHB's Avatar
    Amazon appstore.
    Proprietary APIs and Amazon offers no device as sticky as a phone. And it isn't all that different from Google in terms of business model.
    01-21-21 08:42 PM
  13. conite's Avatar
    Proprietary APIs and Amazon offers no device as sticky as a phone. And it isn't all that different from Google in terms of business model.
    They did have a phone (2014-2015) - but without Play Services, no one wanted it.

    Not to mention that developers wanted to stick to Play Store.
    01-21-21 09:00 PM
  14. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Proprietary APIs and Amazon offers no device as sticky as a phone. And it isn't all that different from Google in terms of business model.
    Fire Phone was an epic failure...
    01-21-21 09:00 PM
  15. manny2's Avatar
    The DTEKs had the convenience key back in 2016.
    Next step after convienence key which made switching between apps easier would be dedicated dual app keys. As it stands using two apps on a slab at tge same time is awkward, combined with no onscreen keyboard, OM would have a real advantage over other slabs. (Slider format of course)
    01-21-21 09:16 PM
  16. conite's Avatar
    Next step after convienence key which made switching between apps easier would be dedicated dual app keys. As it stands using two apps on a slab at tge same time is awkward, combined with no onscreen keyboard, OM would have a real advantage over other slabs. (Slider format of course)
    Android 12 (in beta next month) has configurable dual-app icons for immediate split screen.
    01-21-21 09:18 PM
  17. conite's Avatar
    Next step after convienence key which made switching between apps easier would be dedicated dual app keys. As it stands using two apps on a slab at tge same time is awkward, combined with no onscreen keyboard, OM would have a real advantage over other slabs. (Slider format of course)
    That's not the convenience key you're referring to - that's the speed key.
    Last edited by conite; 01-22-21 at 08:39 AM.
    01-21-21 09:19 PM
  18. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Proprietary APIs and Amazon offers no device as sticky as a phone. And it isn't all that different from Google in terms of business model.
    Thing is... do the majority of developer and user want something different from what Google offers.

    I know a LOT of people are very loud about wanting something else... but in the end, do they really? And are they willing to pay more for it? Are they willing to give up some things to have it?

    And the real trick as we have seen and learned.... is how do you get both groups, consumers and developer to take the risk together?

    BlackBerry's BB10 platform failed
    Microsoft's Windows 10 Mobile platform failed
    Samsung's Tizen platform for phones failed
    Mozilla's Firefox OS failed (has rerisen under new ownership as KaiOS.... .13% marketshare with mostly $100 and under phones )
    Jolla's Sailfish platform is dead in the water... not even sure the Russians are really going to use it.
    Amazon's Kindle platform... only exist on mostly $50 tablets that they subsidies.

    Harmony OS platform might be the exception.... with State backing and billions poured into it. But even that isn't assured.

    What you want is something like GrapheneOS, Lineage OS or Replicant..... no need for OM to make their own.

    But in the end the big developers use GPS for a reason, and they aren't going to go chasing a few thousand users on some forked Android OS or on some Linux distribution.
    01-22-21 07:51 AM
  19. DonHB's Avatar
    Thing is... do the majority of developer and user want something different from what Google offers.

    I know a LOT of people are very loud about wanting something else... but in the end, do they really? And are they willing to pay more for it? Are they willing to give up some things to have it?

    And the real trick as we have seen and learned.... is how do you get both groups, consumers and developer to take the risk together?

    BlackBerry's BB10 platform failed
    .
    .
    .
    But in the end the big developers use GPS for a reason, and they aren't going to go chasing a few thousand users on some forked Android OS or on some Linux distribution.
    Well part of the problem with BB10 is that it expected an all or nothing commitment from developers. The company chose to build developers' tools that were in no way compatible with what was used with mobile platforms at the time; not APIs and not languages. BlackBerry didn't even meet half way. If it chose to implement Flow using Android, but continued to use QNX 6.5 developers would have had far less work to support BB's Android (non-TM'd). And BB would have been ahead delivering a gesture based UX for Android. Similar to AMD preempting Intel with x64?

    This problem was the same with SailFish which also used Qt with a proprietary UI API. But worse than BB as it had no App Store. Like BlackBerry, it added support for Android, but it was likely outdated as was the runtime in BB10.

    The problem is similar with the Android (non-TM'd) offerings with no place for developers to sell their wares. And the APIs were non-standard or free use for device developers (e.g. Amazon's offerings). I am not aware of any real effort by Amazon to get its App Store loaded by phone owners onto their devices. The Fire Phone was panned due to its UX more so than due to issues with app availability.

    What is needed is an organization that will take AOSP and fork it and make it available to developers and device makers. To make a third platform which has fewer restrictions than Android (with TM) and to judiciously choose the level of control that allows device developers to innovate and for software developers to continue support of the platform is tall order, but the current AOSP is mature, but lagging the TM'd version. Could be an opportune time.

    Can't suggest any existing organization to take this on. It could perhaps fund itself by operating an app store. BlueStacks may have the expertise to do this, but I believe its raison d'être is to bring proprietary Android (TM'd) to macOS and Windows. There may be a conflict of interest, if it takes this on. I have been convinced BlackBerry would not have any interest in pursuing this.

    Google should understand that this project could help them in countering accusations of antitrust.
    01-22-21 11:04 AM
  20. conite's Avatar

    What is needed is an organization that will take AOSP and fork it and make it available to developers and device makers.
    [Citation needed]
    01-22-21 11:10 AM
  21. conite's Avatar
    The Fire Phone was panned due to its UX more so than due to issues with app availability.
    Cnet:

    The good - The Amazon Fire Phone has cool "3D" visuals and a fresh OS design, and it hits the sweet spot for one-handed operation. It has deep, convenient integration with Amazon services.

    The bad - Although it costs the same (or more) as competing Android and iPhone models, the Fire Phone delivers a less extensive app store and service experience
    01-22-21 11:13 AM
  22. DonHB's Avatar
    Cnet:

    The good - The Amazon Fire Phone has cool "3D" visuals and a fresh OS design, and it hits the sweet spot for one-handed operation. It has deep, convenient integration with Amazon services.

    The bad - Although it costs the same (or more) as competing Android and iPhone models, the Fire Phone delivers a less extensive app store and service experience
    It was "cool" in concept, but not in implementation. It had problems in software similar to the physical problems with the Key One and early Key2.
    01-22-21 11:20 AM
  23. conite's Avatar
    It was "cool" in concept, but not in implementation. It had problems in software similar to the physical problems with the Key One and early Key2.
    A "fresh OS that hits the sweet spot for one-handed use" is hardly just "cool".

    As for software problems similar to the KEY² hardware problems, I have no idea what you're talking about.

    You keep pushing your narrative around, but ignore the simple fact that every single attempt at this has failed - despite your best efforts to explain each and every one of them away. Try to think of it from another perspective, - in that from every angle this has been approached, it has failed.
    01-22-21 11:25 AM
  24. DonHB's Avatar
    A "fresh OS that hits the sweet spot for one-handed use" is hardly just "cool".
    Check out this article from a non-tech source:

    https://variety.com/2014/digital/new...s-1201267476/#!
    01-22-21 11:31 AM
  25. conite's Avatar
    Check out this article from a non-tech source:

    https://variety.com/2014/digital/new...s-1201267476/#!
    No doubt we can find differing reviews for every device out there. This does not absolve you of the meta-issues with your analysis.

    Ironically, their biggest gripe was "while Amazon offers 185,000 apps for the Fire Phone, that’s less than 20% of the apps that run on Apple and Android phones, and doesn’t currently have apps such as YouTube and Google Maps."
    01-22-21 11:33 AM
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