06-01-14 06:37 PM
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  1. Omnitech's Avatar
    The [Motorola] company losses are primary from right here in the US of A where operating in the smartphone space is very expensive.
    A point I have made many times in response to all the people here clamoring for some flagship products from BlackBerry in markets like the USA where it takes hundreds of millions of dollars just to get your foot in the door. Which is why I think the Z3 strategy is the only prudent one for the company right now. The cost of marketing a device in a developing country is far less than it is in a place like the USA, and the players here are so entrenched it would take a massive undertaking to gain any headway. If Android can take a large chunk of business away from BlackBerry in Indonesia over the last year, then BlackBerry can get those customers back too. In the USA, not so much. Many intertwining financial interests etc.


    Even if successful I don't expect the Z3 to do much for BB balance sheet so its a misnomer to say the Z3 strategy is better than any other.
    It's certainly way better than the strategy described above, or the "bottom feeder" strategy that so many people here on CB seem to think will work, when they would be competing with the likes of Samsung and generic "white box" producers from China.


    From my perspective the Z3 is a stop loss phone, to keep existing BB users from migrating to other platforms, actually gaining marketshare would be an unexpected pleasant surprise.
    As stated previously, I think the customers in places like Indonesia are still up for grabs. It's a dynamic market. Here in the USA it's saturated, obsessed with local-based platforms and actually, kind of conservative at this point and change-averse. Typical mature market issues.
    mediadavid likes this.
    05-20-14 02:34 AM
  2. Allwyn John's Avatar
    Yet people here keep bringing it up as if this is something that the Z3 is supposed to compete with. Thus my clarification of its parameters.
    I never said that the Z3 is competing with the Moto E, or if it has better or worse specs than the former. You're the one who brought the comparisons up. All I said is that everyone is more keen in buying the Moto E when it comes to selecting a low end phone. Hence the Z3 (when it launches in India) may not get the attention it got in Indonesia, however good it was.
    I rest my case.


    Black Z30 STA100-2, Android convert
    Last edited by Allwyn John; 05-20-14 at 04:15 AM.
    05-20-14 03:04 AM
  3. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Yet people here keep bringing it up as if this is something that the Z3 is supposed to compete with. Thus my clarification of its parameters.






    That's nice. And if they lose $10 on each unit sold, they'll just "make it up in volume", amirite?

    Because that's what Nokia was doing with Asha devices before Microsoft bought them. Good thing too, because they needed to be propped-up financially. And Motorola was not making money prior to being sold to Lenovo, either. Hopefully Lenovo can do something with the cost structure.

    BlackBerry is in no position to waste precious and limited resources throwing money at a money-losing business. Regardless how many clueless punters who have never run a business think that "gaining marketshare" is the only thing a company needs to think about. Which is why for whatever smartphone business they involve themselves in, they have to make money somehow. They do not have the deep pockets of their competitors to allow such follies.
    This is an interesting point you raise and it made me smile. The android oem's that sell phones for $50 and take a loss ( or near it) all in the name of market share are really only making that market share for good old Google. It makes me lol. What is actually in it for these companies? Do they have their own services to sell? None that I can see. In the case of BlackBerry and apple I can see some benefit to taking a loss to gain market share as they have their own proprietary os and services and have more to gain by getting handsets into people's hands.

    Posted via CB10
    05-20-14 07:26 AM
  4. The Big Picture's Avatar
    This is an interesting point you raise and it made me smile. The android oem's that sell phones for $50 and take a loss ( or near it) all in the name of market share are really only making that market share for good old Google. It makes me lol. What is actually in it for these companies? Do they have their own services to sell? None that I can see. In the case of BlackBerry and apple I can see some benefit to taking a loss to gain market share as they have their own proprietary os and services and have more to gain by getting handsets into people's hands.

    Posted via CB10
    THIS! There is value in having your own OS. This is why samsung is trying their darnest in releasing tizen which is their own OS.

    Is everything is fine and dandy with android why does samsung (largest maker of android phones by far, probably more than the rest combined X 2) ) want to build their own OS?

    Even for samsung its not going to be an easy task.

    Think outside of the consumer box gentlemen.

    BB10 - call blocking please, BBM - too many to list
    THBW likes this.
    05-20-14 08:11 AM
  5. gimmi786's Avatar
    That's great Indonesia, come on BlackBerry it's time for INDIA now.

    Posted via CB10
    Loc22 likes this.
    05-20-14 11:58 AM
  6. crazigee's Avatar
    That's great Indonesia, come on BlackBerry it's time for INDIA now.

    Posted via CB10
    India would be a huge market for BlackBerry. If they could get in there in a big way it would be very good for BlackBerry and their books.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    Loc22 likes this.
    05-20-14 12:37 PM
  7. Ment's Avatar

    It's certainly way better than the strategy described above, or the "bottom feeder" strategy that so many people here on CB seem to think will work, when they would be competing with the likes of Samsung and generic "white box" producers from China.


    As stated previously, I think the customers in places like Indonesia are still up for grabs. It's a dynamic market. Here in the USA it's saturated, obsessed with local-based platforms and actually, kind of conservative at this point and change-averse. Typical mature market issues.
    I'm going to assume the Z3 will be moderately successful and sell a few million in Indonesia to stem the plunge of 43% 2011 34% 2012 and 14% marketshare of sales last year in that country. What does BB do then. Do they roll out Z3 V2 and another upmarket model say $300 or do they go low like the Moto E to expand their base.
    05-20-14 02:39 PM
  8. Koepman's Avatar
    I'm going to assume the Z3 will be moderately successful and sell a few million in Indonesia to stem the plunge of 43% 2011 34% 2012 and 14% marketshare of sales last year in that country. What does BB do then. Do they roll out Z3 V2 and another upmarket model say $300 or do they go low like the Moto E to expand their base.
    Q3 for 150$
    Q5 for 200$


    Visit my Channel C00121417 ? ?
    05-20-14 03:45 PM
  9. Omnitech's Avatar
    I never said that the Z3 is competing with the Moto E, or if it has better or worse specs than the former. You're the one who brought the comparisons up. All I said is that everyone is more keen in buying the Moto E when it comes to selecting a low end phone. Hence the Z3 (when it launches in India) may not get the attention it got in Indonesia, however good it was.
    I rest my case.

    Your contention "everyone is more keen in buying the Moto E when it comes to selecting a low end phone" is false. Actually, kind of outrageously simplistically false, tbh.

    The devices are at different price points. If someone wants a $129 USD device, then they will surely consider the Moto E. If someone wants a ~$200 USD device, then they will surely consider the BlackBerry Z3. If someone wants a $500 USD device, then surely they will consider the Apple iPhone 5 series, or the Samsung Galaxy S4/S5 series, or even the BlackBerry Z30, which is also sold in Indonesia.

    Devices in ALL of those price ranges are sold and purchased in Indonesia. Which brings me to my point about how people run around claiming that the Z3 is doomed because supposedly everyone will surely purchase a Moto E instead, as if "all 'low end' phones are the same". Well guess what: they are not. And BlackBerries have unique advantages, even at the same price points as other devices currently for sale.

    That is all.
    05-20-14 08:41 PM
  10. Omnitech's Avatar
    What does BB do then. Do they roll out Z3 V2 and another upmarket model say $300 or do they go low like the Moto E to expand their base.
    It is my opinion that chasing the super-low-end of the market is pointless for the company, does nothing constructive for them and in fact would be a disastrous waste of money and could literally bankrupt them.

    In short, I don't see the need for trying to go for any lower price category than where the Z3 is right now.
    05-20-14 08:45 PM
  11. PineappleUnderTheSea's Avatar
    The devices are at different price points. If someone wants a $129 USD device, then they will surely consider the Moto E. If someone wants a ~$200 USD device, then they will surely consider the BlackBerry Z3. If someone wants a $500 USD device, then surely they will consider the Apple iPhone 5 series, or the Samsung Galaxy S4/S5 series, or even the BlackBerry Z30, which is also sold in Indonesia.
    The issue is that Chen is going around boasting that BB10 is now an Android powerhouse when it comes to apps. So if the CEO of BB is basically giving a big FU to BB10 developers, seems to me that a consumer would just go ahead and buy the cheaper Android phone. That only leaves BB fanatics who would buy the more expensive BB. But I'm basing my logic on the North American market, Indonesian consumers might have a complete different outlook.
    JeepBB likes this.
    05-20-14 10:55 PM
  12. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    It is my opinion that chasing the super-low-end of the market is pointless for the company, does nothing constructive for them and in fact would be a disastrous waste of money and could literally bankrupt them.

    In short, I don't see the need for trying to go for any lower price category than where the Z3 is right now.
    You have to wonder how these no name android OEM's can sell phones at such a low cost? They have to be making some money. Realistically, if they are not making money on the HW then where are they making money? And if the answer is that they are making money on selling HW, the next question is what is everyone else doing wrong that they can't make money at the same price points? Unless, those no name androids are of such poor quality that the price is reflective of what the buyer is getting. I have never played with one of these phones so I have no first hand knowledge but it does make me wonder.

    I would also add that it isn't just about cost. The Blackberry brand may no longer be what it once was, but it still has some cache. If it was all about cost everyone would be driving around in a Toyota prius. What is Blakberry's weakness today (new BB10 OS and young eco system) will be their strength tomorrow (assuming they can financially sustain themselves) as they have their own proprietary OS and 'experience'. The only other company that can say this is apple. No Android OEM can. If I were Samsung, HTC, etc, I would hate to be beholden to Google. Eventually specs will become irrelevant, and all of these OEM's will have a very difficult time differentiating themselves from one another. People will wonder why they should buy a $500 Samsung when they can buy an $80 knock-off. Same OS. Same experience. Blackberry and Apple just by not running Android have a leg up in that regard.
    mediadavid likes this.
    05-20-14 11:01 PM
  13. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    The issue is that Chen is going around boasting that BB10 is now an Android powerhouse when it comes to apps. So if the CEO of BB is basically giving a big FU to BB10 developers, seems to me that a consumer would just go ahead and buy the cheaper Android phone. That only leaves BB fanatics who would buy the more expensive BB. But I'm basing my logic on the North American market, Indonesian consumers might have a complete different outlook.
    If they can get the android runtime working to the point where devs don't need to make any modifications (just submit the APK and that's it), then he can more easily convince theses devs to come to BB World. That is the hardest part, getting them in the front door. Once he gets them there, he can then provide them with solid data to indicate the number of downloads they recieved, and how they could do more (and possibly make more $$$) with a native app. But just getting them in the front door creates momentum for the platform which creates confidence amongst buyers when deciding if it is a viable platform.

    I don't believe Chen bragging about 98% android compatibility was an FU to native devs. He was actually rolling out the welcome mat for all of his potential new app developers.
    05-20-14 11:05 PM
  14. Omnitech's Avatar
    The issue is that Chen is going around boasting that BB10 is now an Android powerhouse when it comes to apps. So if the CEO of BB is basically giving a big FU to BB10 developers, seems to me that a consumer would just go ahead and buy the cheaper Android phone. That only leaves BB fanatics who would buy the more expensive BB. But I'm basing my logic on the North American market, Indonesian consumers might have a complete different outlook.


    You seem to be over-simplifying almost everything there, and there is a vast difference between the North American market and the Indonesian (or any developing country) market.

    First of all I don't see why you're so convinced that touting the Android compatibility is automatically a "FU" to BB10 app developers, it is a simple market reality. Every single one of the people who develop for BB10 are well-aware of how much larger the Android ecosystem is, and in a place like Indonesia which is very cost-conscious, it's not a surprise whatsoever that many people are gravitating to the cheapest products and ecosystems. The biggest "FU" to BB10 app developers would be if BlackBerry fails to build competitive products and exits the smartphone business entirely. Android app compatibility in Indonesia is one way they are obviously going to use to help them remain relevant there.

    But there are always compromises with those low-end products, which is why a significant number of Indonesians buy high-end smartphones too. And this is why Indonesians are NOT simply going to buy an Android device because it's cheaper, unless they literally have no budget for anything else. When I did a survey of Indonesian Crackberry users about what they wanted in a budget smartphone - before the Z3 specs were announced - NONE of the people that responded thought that the device needed to be sold for less than $200 USD. In my opinion, even at that price - while it is not THE cheapest price level - it's still in the "sweet spot" enough for that market to garner substantial interest. BlackBerry has never been in that position in that market with any prior BB10 device.

    Every business owner has to realize who their customers are, and MOST businesses are not in the luxurious position of being able to appeal to and sell to every single person in the world. BlackBerry wants to be able to have a piece of the lower-end market, but they would be insane to try to build something for the lowest-end part of the market. In order to do that you either have to be a shoestring operation company with virtually no technology of your own, poor quality components, poor support, poor QA and you are inevitably going to skimp on everything including how much you pay your employees and everything else, to even think about building a device to sell at ie <$100 USD. And most of those kinds of companies don't last more than a few years at most, or they just exit the market and strand their customers.

    Or you need to be a gargantuan vertically-integrated manufacturing powerhouse like Samsung, which can internally source many components and through massive market power can achieve production costs few competitors can match. (This is actually one of the key strengths of Hon Hai/Foxconn - they have grown to become the largest manufacturer of electronics in the world, in large measure because they provide the economy of scale that most of their contract manufacturing clients - including Apple - cannot achieve on their own.)
    05-21-14 12:54 AM
  15. Omnitech's Avatar
    Eventually specs will become irrelevant, and all of these OEM's will have a very difficult time differentiating themselves from one another. People will wonder why they should buy a $500 Samsung when they can buy an $80 knock-off. Same OS. Same experience.

    That has been the case now for Android for several years now. Of course they all talk "specs" because it's their only differentiator. They're all selling a commodity. See my prior post above.

    Take a look at the snip below of the current product selector page for the 91Mobiles website in India. I am leaving their selection criteria open, these figures represent all the devices they catalogue from low-end to high-end:



    Z3 sold out across Indonesia (Merchants raising pirices)-91mobiles_product-mix_2014-05-20a.png



    Need I say more? Can you say "commoditized"??



    Blackberry and Apple just by not running Android have a leg up in that regard.

    Which is what I have been saying repeatedly: BlackBerry needs to sell their value-add, there is NO POINT in trying to mud-wrestle with the bottom-feeders in the market. A lot of those companies making white-box Android devices will probably be out of business in a couple of years anyway.
    05-21-14 01:09 AM
  16. JeepBB's Avatar
    If they can get the android runtime working to the point where devs don't need to make any modifications (just submit the APK and that's it) .

    Surely Chen's 98% boast means he thinks the BB10 runtime has already gotten to that point.

    And, much as Bla1ze says on another thread... I believe that to be at best spin, and at worst an outright lie.





    JBB
    05-21-14 04:29 AM
  17. The Big Picture's Avatar
    Surely Chen's 98% boast means he thinks the BB10 runtime has already gotten to that point.

    And, much as Bla1ze says on another thread... I believe that to be at best spin, and at worst an outright lie.





    JBB
    There are 1.2 million apps on google play.

    http://www.appbrain.com/stats/number-of-android-apps

    2 percent is 24000 apps.

    Makes perfect sense to me. Sure within those 24000 apps there are many key ones but whats wrong with you people?

    Most google apps work BTW.

    Use logic before emotions.

    BB10 - call blocking please, BBM - too many to list
    Omnitech likes this.
    05-21-14 04:46 AM
  18. JeepBB's Avatar
    A huge percentage of those that work flawlessly are Apps like flashlight apps.


    Are people crying out for such Apps?


    Do 98% of the top-50 Apps that are considered must have, work flawlessly?



    JBB
    05-21-14 04:51 AM
  19. The Big Picture's Avatar
    A huge percentage of those that work flawlessly are Apps like flashlight apps.


    Are people crying out for such Apps?


    Do 98% of the top-50 Apps that are considered must have, work flawlessly?



    JBB
    Point is nobody was lying. The math is sound, so is the logic.

    This is business and marketing 101.

    BB10 - call blocking please, BBM - too many to list
    05-21-14 05:20 AM
  20. JeepBB's Avatar
    Point is, Chen is spinning this.

    The 98% figure has been used to create a misleading impression of near-perfect capability of the runtime to run unaltered apk's.

    Both spin and lying are an attempt to deceive.

    Not deceiving your customers is business 101 too!

    JBB
    05-21-14 06:02 AM
  21. The Big Picture's Avatar
    Point is, Chen is spinning this.

    The 98% figure has been used to create a misleading impression of near-perfect capability of the runtime to run unaltered apk's.

    Both spin and lying are an attempt to deceive.

    Not deceiving your customers is business 101 too!

    JBB
    I think JC ment 98% of all android apps are compatible with BB10 not 98% of an android app is compatible with BB10.

    He never said perfect compatibility. 98% of apps works and you can use it for what it ment for.

    Google and apple are huge manipulators and they dont seem to get any slack for it.

    Signature - Google wants your info. What are you gonna do about it?
    05-21-14 06:10 AM
  22. Septembersrain's Avatar
    If they had a sales set up like this in my local mall, I'd be buying every new handset released by BlackBerry.

    I just love buying my toys directly from source without waiting for shipping. I'll pay more for that human interaction, whereas I'll look for a bargain if it's online.

    Sent from a larger than life device using Tapatalk!
    snejpa likes this.
    05-21-14 07:00 AM
  23. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Point is, Chen is spinning this.

    The 98% figure has been used to create a misleading impression of near-perfect capability of the runtime to run unaltered apk's.

    Both spin and lying are an attempt to deceive.

    Not deceiving your customers is business 101 too!

    JBB
    I believe the 98% number, but do think it is spin. Of the 2% there are definitely some critical apps that don't work (require g-play services). This is where BB needs to step it up and find inventive ways around this issue. If an app requires use of a google service they need to be able to substitute it for their own service or an alternative 3rd party service. But ultimately they need to make it so that devs can take the g-play version of their apk and upload it to app world without the need for any modifications. IF they could ever get to this point it would be huge.
    JeepBB likes this.
    05-21-14 07:57 AM
  24. Banco's Avatar
    I'm sure it is spin to say 98%. Do people think that Chen is the first person to do this? Do they imagine the claims from Google, Apple and Microsoft are all copper-bottomed facts with no self-serving element to them whatsoever?

    Why is this even something to debate? It's just promoting the brand.
    05-21-14 08:10 AM
  25. badiyee's Avatar
    You have to wonder how these no name android OEM's can sell phones at such a low cost? They have to be making some money. Realistically, if they are not making money on the HW then where are they making money? And if the answer is that they are making money on selling HW, the next question is what is everyone else doing wrong that they can't make money at the same price points? Unless, those no name androids are of such poor quality that the price is reflective of what the buyer is getting. I have never played with one of these phones so I have no first hand knowledge but it does make me wonder.

    I would also add that it isn't just about cost. The Blackberry brand may no longer be what it once was, but it still has some cache. If it was all about cost everyone would be driving around in a Toyota prius. What is Blakberry's weakness today (new BB10 OS and young eco system) will be their strength tomorrow (assuming they can financially sustain themselves) as they have their own proprietary OS and 'experience'. The only other company that can say this is apple. No Android OEM can. If I were Samsung, HTC, etc, I would hate to be beholden to Google. Eventually specs will become irrelevant, and all of these OEM's will have a very difficult time differentiating themselves from one another. People will wonder why they should buy a $500 Samsung when they can buy an $80 knock-off. Same OS. Same experience. Blackberry and Apple just by not running Android have a leg up in that regard.
    I'm not going to speak in a blanketting manner, but I've seen this cloner (a manufacturer that specializes in cloning, and rebranding)

    In the beginning, they went with the "this is a cheaper Samsung / HTC lookalike". People bought them.

    Then when customers complained,

    they went "oh hey, we got some REALLY GREAT Mediatek chips, we even increased the size of the phones!". People bought them.

    THen when customers complained,

    they went "oh hey we got the newer Samsung HTC look-alike, but they are not Samsung / HTC. You see, we went overboard. Here's a quad core allwinner, here's a quad core Mediatek, quadcore is better than that qualcomm dual core you see". People bought based on the benchmarks (but not necessarily good user experience in real life situations.

    Then when customers complained

    they went "oh hey, this is a xiaomi (a cloned xiaomi but won't tell them)" and the entire cycle process repeats. Just like multi level marketting scams.
    Omnitech and LuvULongTime like this.
    05-21-14 08:17 AM
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