1. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    This is the mind set that will kill off the BlackBerry handset.

    Keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome is insane.

    Sorry, but it's true.

    BlackBerry hates America!
    Agreed. Old BBOS touch screens were not very good because the underlying OS was not very good. The new BB10 touch screens are not bad devices. They were just under spec'd and over priced on release. Even an Android phone would struggle to sell under those circumstances. BB needs to continue pushing on with all form factors as long as they are in the HW business. They need spec and price competitive HW. They need to immediately stop this nonsense of under spec'ing and over pricing their HW. It is absolutely killing them. It is not 2007 anymore. Their brand does not have the same pull. The app situation still needs a lot of work, but it is getting better with the Amazon deal. Looking at Passport and Classic reviews the big complaint was no longer apps. It was mostly about the form factor, the fact both had PKB's, and in the Classic's case the garbage HW. If the general consumer can pick up a BB that matches the current day Android for $50 cheaper on contract than an Android, then they will get looks at the very least. If the general consumer knows they can get Netflix, Instagram (iGrann), Candy Crush, etc, then that's the other half of the battle right there.

    Blackberry hasn't had any success selling phones without a keyboard and they have been trying for years. There is no reason to buy such a device, there are much better phones running Android and iOS.
    See above. I'd also add that from a multitasking and 'full' OS perspective, BB10 is the best IMO. Ecosystem goes to Apple, and services go to Google, but base OS functionality goes to BB10 IMO.
    12-25-14 09:37 PM
  2. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    In strategy, every business should have the approach it three big pillars:
    Defend, Stretch, Adapt.

    Defend - you defend your core business. Not losing your market share as OEM (target - 100% market penetration), and so on. Basically - defend your market/market share.

    Stretch - you should stretch into other OEM's market share. If you are doing something but your are not confident (or big enough) - you try to excel in that field, and if there is a market covered by other OEM - you offer product/service - for that OEM equipment/field - better that other OEM, cheaper, etc.

    However, if your DEFEND pillar is weak (or is getting weaker), and STRETCH capabilities are not enough to cover the loss of "Defend" - you have to ADAPT.
    ADAPT - enter completely new field, technology, or service. Something - that is completely out of your current field, etc. Business case by business case - your are growing your business from nothing to something.

    is JC doing that? I think - he should. Otherwise, Defend and Stretch will continue to drop.
    He's trying his best to defend enterprise. If that is successful and can subsequently make money for the company then they can re-enter the consumer market. You can't put a roof on a house with a severely cracked foundation.
    alludba and KemKev like this.
    12-25-14 09:40 PM
  3. akabbani's Avatar
    Yes and the Classic wasn't mentioned by anyone but you. Why you think the Classic is relevant to the thread topic is a great mystery I admit.

    And in case your reasoning are not quite up to snuff, selling better than the Passport is not the same as selling well.
    Well at this point I'm just going to assume you're trolling. Surely no-one is this daft.

    Posted via My Beast Q10
    12-25-14 09:49 PM
  4. tonythecanuck's Avatar
    Globe and Mail is now crap. It is not Canada's national newspaper. Globe editor has explicitly stated that they want the paper to only appeal to the top 100,000 earners. Toronto Star, a city paper, has much wider circulation and has much better coverage of local, national, and international coverage. Globe is now just a glossy advertising rag for the very rich. They have also lost or fired some good reporters and writers.

    Posted using my BlackBerry Z30.
    12-25-14 09:52 PM
  5. ponpiri's Avatar
    That's a strange title. Employees don't get demoted unless we're talking politics... they either get promoted, fired or shuffled around to a new division with completely different responsibilities - and usually this is a type of promotion.

    There's something funny about Chen in a good way. I like watching his interviews because it looks like he's always got a ****-eating grin on his face.
    Senor Wright likes this.
    12-25-14 10:19 PM
  6. notafanofyou's Avatar
    Come back to reality please.



    BlackBerry hates America!
    Keep using outdated iphones and android phones if you don't mind NSA having 100% access to your phone. I on the other hand like freedom and democracy and so I use a BlackBerry.

    America hates BlackBerry

    Posted via CB10
    12-25-14 10:20 PM
  7. ADGrant's Avatar
    Agreed. Old BBOS touch screens were not very good because the underlying OS was not very good. The new BB10 touch screens are not bad devices. They were just under spec'd and over priced on release. Even an Android phone would struggle to sell under those circumstances. BB needs to continue pushing on with all form factors as long as they are in the HW business. They need spec and price competitive HW. They need to immediately stop this nonsense of under spec'ing and over pricing their HW. It is absolutely killing them. It is not 2007 anymore. Their brand does not have the same pull. The app situation still needs a lot of work, but it is getting better with the Amazon deal. Looking at Passport and Classic reviews the big complaint was no longer apps. It was mostly about the form factor, the fact both had PKB's, and in the Classic's case the garbage HW. If the general consumer can pick up a BB that matches the current day Android for $50 cheaper on contract than an Android, then they will get looks at the very least. If the general consumer knows they can get Netflix, Instagram (iGrann), Candy Crush, etc, then that's the other half of the battle right there.

    See above. I'd also add that from a multitasking and 'full' OS perspective, BB10 is the best IMO. Ecosystem goes to Apple, and services go to Google, but base OS functionality goes to BB10 IMO.
    Actually some of the Passport and Classic reviews have complained about the app situation. The Amazon app store doesn't really solve the problem, it highlights that BB10 is a worse platform for running Android apps than a regular Android device with all the Google Services and the Google app store. The underpowered hardware would be less of an issue if there were more native apps. BB10 has no significant technical advantages compared to the competition. It has the significant disadvantage that app developers are ignoring the platform mostly due to the tiny market share. Microsoft has much better development tools and a much larger market share but it is also failing to attract developers.

    The BB10 platform has also failed to attract consumers. Most of the BBs I see have keyboards and are running BB 7 or earlier. Kim Kardashian and her celeb friends aren't the only people holding on to their 9900s, I see plenty of people carrying a 9900 and an iPhone. I am not sure what the market share of BB7 is vs BB10 because the reports seem to lump them together. I suspect though that 7 still has a higher market share though due to business use and people unwilling to give up the keyboard and tool belt buttons.
    12-25-14 10:31 PM
  8. trsbbs's Avatar
    as for carrier support...unsure why this is Chen's issue.... Carriers have been ignoring BB since committing to Apple and then Samsung.....
    It is Chens issue as BlackBerry needs to use the carriers networks for every single part of his companies product line.

    BlackBerry has been shunned by the carriers ever since Mike L. strong armed them and got them to sell the last legacy phones. This is when things started to turn cold.

    Thor was a little better and the carriers were happy Mike was gone, but the first round of BB10 phones were a flop. They weren't ready for prime time. Bad execution again. Remember this?
    Carriers were not happy with BlackBerry. They gave up on BlackBerry as a revenue point.

    Then the board, via Thor, put BlackBerry up for sale. This really helped project confidence and longevity to its customers, the carriers.

    Then JC swaggers in and tossed TMO. This left a bad taste in folks mouths.

    Now Passport, an old idea that was given the green light. Flash in the pan. Many carriers and the largest said no thanks.

    You forget what and/or who allowed Apple and Android to become powerful enough to almost grind BlackBerry to a fine powder and blow it away.
    BlackBerry did. Foot in mouth and self inflicted wounds were a common happening.

    I hope for the best but so far I am more concerned than ever that I will no longer be able to buy a first class BlackBerry phone or be able to justify buying one.






    BlackBerry hates America!
    12-25-14 10:39 PM
  9. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Actually some of the Passport and Classic reviews have complained about the app situation. The Amazon app store doesn't really solve the problem, it highlights that BB10 is a worse platform for running Android apps than a regular Android device with all the Google Services and the Google app store. The underpowered hardware would be less of an issue if there were more native apps. BB10 has no significant technical advantages compared to the competition. It has the significant disadvantage that app developers are ignoring the platform mostly due to the tiny market share. Microsoft has much better development tools and a much larger market share but it is also failing to attract developers.

    The BB10 platform has also failed to attract consumers. Most of the BBs I see have keyboards and are running BB 7 or earlier. Kim Kardashian and her celeb friends aren't the only people holding on to their 9900s, I see plenty of people carrying a 9900 and an iPhone. I am not sure what the market share of BB7 is vs BB10 because the reports seem to lump them together. I suspect though that 7 still has a higher market share though due to business use and people unwilling to give up the keyboard and tool belt buttons.
    Joanna's Stern's Passport review was the only one I can remember where specific apps missing were her big complaint. The others did highlight it further down, but also said it was better than pre-Amazon. They also highlighted that many big apps could be had via Amazon. Lack of Google Services is mentioned frequently. No disagreement there. And provided BB throws enough HW on their phones, then Android apps will run reasonably well (enough) for most consumers. It's something some of us (myself counted) are willing to ignore as we appreciate other aspects of the base OS, apps aside.
    12-25-14 10:56 PM
  10. tinochiko's Avatar
    But he himself said the Classic out sold the Passport at launch...

    Posted via My Beast Q10
    That statement would also be true if Passport sold 5 and Classic sold 10 so it could still mean they aren't meeting their internal sales targets.

    Check Out TechCraze
    12-26-14 03:50 AM
  11. yessuz's Avatar
    He's trying his best to defend enterprise. If that is successful and can subsequently make money for the company then they can re-enter the consumer market. You can't put a roof on a house with a severely cracked foundation.
    I agree on this. and I think that what he's doing at the moment - is fine. but we still need strong "adapt" portion. here - nanhealth, qnx, etc should prosper
    12-26-14 04:32 AM
  12. jojo beaconsfield's Avatar
    Well ,I'll Quote Mark Twain and leave it at that ...If you don't read the Newspaper,you're uninformed,if you read the newspaper,you're misinformed...Happy New Year!!!
    ponpiri, Chrisy and ADGrant like this.
    12-26-14 05:25 AM
  13. ADGrant's Avatar
    Keep using outdated iphones and android phones if you don't mind NSA having 100% access to your phone. I on the other hand like freedom and democracy and so I use a BlackBerry.

    America hates BlackBerry

    Posted via CB10
    I assume you don't store anything in the cloud, or send unencrypted emails.
    12-26-14 05:25 AM
  14. randall2580's Avatar
    I am not sure what the Sales Manager is supposed to do here. During the earnings call, Chen said they had trouble shipping the first 200,000 Passports and are only this month caught up with that. We know they have more production of the Classic - but considering the first part here how much is that actually?

    Thor then Chen cut BlackBerry to the core to keep as much cash on hand as possible and it's possible they have cut too deeply here. If they have popular products and cannot ship on time why is that the Sales Dept's problem? Seems to me the COO should have some questions to answer here.
    app_Developer likes this.
    12-26-14 07:49 AM
  15. pantlesspenguin's Avatar
    Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Did you even read this thread from the beginning or the freaking topic???

    Posted via My Beast Q10
    Help me understand your hatred of ADGrant's post. I think perhaps you misunderstood. You said the classic outsold the Passport at launch, he asked why it was surprising. You said demoting the head of sales was contradictory. So, imagine I'm in charge of selling two lines of vacuum cleaners. First my company released a high end model with lots of bells and whistles, and a price tag to match. Then my company sold a midrange vacuum that still had lots of features but a little less power, and was priced considerably less than the high end model. The midrange model sold very well after the product launch, even better than the high end model. But if the sales weren't what I promised to deliver, or if they were lower than the quota my boss expected of me, then it's understandable that they'd take me out of my position and give it to someone who has the expertise and vision to live up to sales expectations. I don't see anything wrong with that.
    12-26-14 08:42 AM
  16. insandouts's Avatar
    i'm sure more details will trickle out soon, but a locked part of the Globe and Mail (a newspaper with well connected BB ties for info) has the headline :

    "On the heels of poor quarter, head of sales demoted...."
    It is JC who should be demoted. How can a head of sales do any good with the current line up of devices? Give the sales guys something appealing to the public not appealing to fanbois that clearly do not know the difference between a good or bad phone, especially if they think that the Z30 is good,and maybe they can sell some...current phones won't sell
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    12-26-14 10:14 AM
  17. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    It is JC who should be demoted. How can a head of sales do any good with the current line up of devices? Give the sales guys something appealing to the public not appealing to fanbois that clearly do not know the difference between a good or bad phone, especially if they think that the Z30 is good,and maybe they can sell some...current phones won't sell
    Agree the sales guy needs something to sell. Hard to blame him when the only new phone he has had to sell in the last 12 months is a limited run of Passports. Disagree that the Z30 is a bad phone. Ideally the next Z30 should have Passport specs.
    Toodeurep and MarsupilamiX like this.
    12-26-14 10:30 AM
  18. sleepngbear's Avatar
    How about a little Chanukah/Kwanzaa/Christmas/whatever present for the mods in the way of a thread staying on topic? You could not begin to imagine how much that would be appreciated.
    12-26-14 11:35 AM
  19. Hendri Hendri's Avatar
    Agreed. Old BBOS touch screens were not very good because the underlying OS was not very good. The new BB10 touch screens are not bad devices. They were just under spec'd and over priced on release. Even an Android phone would struggle to sell under those circumstances. BB needs to continue pushing on with all form factors as long as they are in the HW business. They need spec and price competitive HW. They need to immediately stop this nonsense of under spec'ing and over pricing their HW. It is absolutely killing them. It is not 2007 anymore. Their brand does not have the same pull. The app situation still needs a lot of work, but it is getting better with the Amazon deal. Looking at Passport and Classic reviews the big complaint was no longer apps. It was mostly about the form factor, the fact both had PKB's, and in the Classic's case the garbage HW. If the general consumer can pick up a BB that matches the current day Android for $50 cheaper on contract than an Android, then they will get looks at the very least. If the general consumer knows they can get Netflix, Instagram (iGrann), Candy Crush, etc, then that's the other half of the battle right there.



    See above. I'd also add that from a multitasking and 'full' OS perspective, BB10 is the best IMO. Ecosystem goes to Apple, and services go to Google, but base OS functionality goes to BB10 IMO.
    BlackBerry 10 is a very good os compare to android. BlackBerry handser is a very good handset. BUT NO APP SUPPORT. It just like I have plenty of luxury and nice cars, but no fuel, at the very end, it's useless

    Posted via CB10
    Chrisy likes this.
    12-26-14 11:37 AM
  20. Hendri Hendri's Avatar
    I am not sure what the Sales Manager is supposed to do here. During the earnings call, Chen said they had trouble shipping the first 200,000 Passports and are only this month caught up with that. We know they have more production of the Classic - but considering the first part here how much is that actually?

    Thor then Chen cut BlackBerry to the core to keep as much cash on hand as possible and it's possible they have cut too deeply here. If they have popular products and cannot ship on time why is that the Sales Dept's problem? Seems to me the COO should have some questions to answer here.
    Sales department is always the one to blame, no forecast hahahahah

    Posted via CB10
    12-26-14 11:40 AM
  21. kbz1960's Avatar
    How about a little Chanukah/Kwanzaa/Christmas/whatever present for the mods in the way of a thread staying on topic? You could not begin to imagine how much that would be appreciated.
    Sure if you do now get back on topic

    On topic. It's hard to sell something people don't really want. No matter what it is.
    12-26-14 11:48 AM
  22. Phone Guy 4567's Avatar
    These arguments are pointless IMO. No matter how the market shakes out I'm certain of one thing people will never be satisfied. Assuming it will be a two platform mobile world of Android & iOS devices there will come a time when people will get bored and look for something else.

    I've seen Commodore, Palm, WordPerfect, Lotus, Novell Netware etc. come and go and at their peak they all had huge market share which they lost almost as quickly as they gained it. What would Google be like without their search revenue or Apple without iOS devices selling well, they could end up becoming the next Blackberry.
    kbz1960 and LuvULongTime like this.
    12-26-14 11:49 AM
  23. EchoTango's Avatar
    At the end of the day, Blackberry needs to create revenue and handsets are only one piece of the puzzle. If Blackberry is going to focus on the regulated industries, then they need to complete the offering and market to that sector. BES 12, Passport and the Classic are only the foundations, but there needs to be a compelling business case and additional products that make the whole of greater value than the individual pieces.

    I think JC is making very astute management moves here, recognizing the complexity of the task he has brought more horsepower to the table. Further, I also respect the fact he didn't reflexively fire the executive but made others take on more of the task.

    As a long suffering shareholder, I continue to look for hopeful signs, but as I look around I see many many large and small operators besting Blackberry at the their own game. I think Blackberry needs to keep embracing change until they get the right formulae for success.
    12-26-14 11:50 AM
  24. ADGrant's Avatar
    These arguments are pointless IMO. No matter how the market shakes out I'm certain of one thing people will never be satisfied. Assuming it will be a two platform mobile world of Android & iOS devices there will come a time when people will get bored and look for something else.

    I've seen Commodore, Palm, WordPerfect, Lotus, Novell Netware etc. come and go and at their peak they all had huge market share which they lost almost as quickly as they gained it. What would Google be like without their search revenue or Apple without iOS devices selling well, they could end up becoming the next Blackberry.
    It pretty much is already a two platform world. Even Microsoft is providing better app support for the iPhone than its own Phone OS. In the pre-iPhone days there were many mobile platforms but PalmOS and Windows Mobile had most of the 3rd party developer support. It didn't really matter in those days because apps were a small part of the smartphone experience and the web browsers sucked. It was all about email.

    Mobile is now bigger than desktop in terms of installed base and the desktop world only supports two major platforms. Apple has been fighting its way back for over a decade, it's not easy dethroning an incumbent . Even with all Microsoft's screw ups and disasters (Vista, Windows 8, Windows Phone etc) they are still the number 1 desktop OS vendor and the desktop is still about overlapping windows, a mouse/trackpad and a keyboard. There has been very little innovation in desktop computing in the last 20 years, its all been about refining the OS.

    In order to survive, Blackberry needs to keep the men in gray suits and their IT guys happy. Their two biggest assets are their relationship with Enterprise/Government IT and their iconic BB Bold design with the 4 row keyboard and the "tool belt". Kevin used to post about how much faster responding to email on the go was with the traditional BB and he was right. I suspect that John Chen feels the same way about the traditional BB that Google Chairman Eric Schmidt does (who was still using a 9900 in September according to a Crackberry story).
    12-26-14 12:43 PM
  25. Toodeurep's Avatar
    ...I think JC is making very astute management moves here, recognizing the complexity of the task he has brought more horsepower to the table. Further, I also respect the fact he didn't reflexively fire the executive but made others take on more of the task...
    And we have a winner! Some people just don't get it and it is refreshing to see that some others do. Highly intelligent people, successful people, run major revenue generating large corporations and still fail. JC is methodically working his way through the mine field and making high percentage moves the entire way.

    For me, the issue is the average person just doesn't get it, hindsight being 20/20 and all we have some the the worlds best CEOs posting on CB everyday lol. Why all the while, two of the most bashed guys on CB (Mike and Jim) have donated more money to charity than probably all of the salaries of every member of CB combined. Yup, Mike and Jim are the guys that needed educated on how to run a company. I've had some successes in my life, but nothing like them and I think any member here would trade with them as well.
    12-26-14 02:54 PM
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