05-31-12 06:18 PM
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  1. morlock_man's Avatar
    It's not an evolving economy though. Their currency operates at fixed exchange rate.

    China isn't a nation of aspiring capitalists, they're communists.

    They're growing slave cities over there.
    05-31-12 12:08 PM
  2. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    It's not an evolving economy though. Their currency operates at fixed exchange rate.

    China isn't a nation of aspiring capitalists, they're communists.

    They're growing slave cities over there.

    Have you been to China

    It VERY much is an evolving economy, and the internal struggles for moving forward without hurting their output are huge,

    yes they are a communist country who DOES require you to make a minimum profit from an Enterprise you open in the country or they will shut you down, but do not think for a second that everything is about slave labor Robotics in China is HUGE,
    05-31-12 12:16 PM
  3. morlock_man's Avatar
    Compare the 'Big Mac' index.

    Price of a Big Mac in the US (2008) - $3.57
    Price of a Big Mac in China (2008) - $2.44

    Or perhaps the price of a can of Coke?

    US ~ 50 cents
    China ~ 3 Yuan (47 cents)

    You can say that $200 a month goes further in China, but it doesn't seem to add up.
    05-31-12 12:17 PM
  4. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Compare the 'Big Mac' index.

    Price of a Big Mac in the US (2008) - $3.57
    Price of a Big Mac in China (2008) - $2.44

    Or perhaps the price of a can of Coke?

    US ~ 50 cents
    China ~ 3 Yuan (47 cents)

    You can say that $200 a month goes further in China, but it doesn't seem to add up.
    So by comparing luxury items? you dictate that the dollar wont go further in China?

    I'll assume that Thailand and China's pricing index for things like Rice and mango are similar

    one can get a 1 Cup of cooked rice and a half a mango for about 20 cents US,
    Where in Canada, 1 cup of cooked rice would be in the $1-2 range for take out, and the half a mango would be another 50-75 cents,
    This is a pretty common lunch in Thailand,


    EDIT

    I decided to google
    http://www.englishfirst.com/trt/cost...-in-china.html
    Milk (1L) : 7 RMB ~ $1.10
    Eggs (12) : 7 RMB ~ $1.10
    Carrots (1kg) : 5 RMB ~ $0.78
    Chicken breast (1kg) : 15 RMB ~ $2.36
    Rice (1kg) : 8 RMB ~ $1.25
    Bottle of water (1.5L) : 3 RMB ~ $0.47
    Bottle of Chinese beer (.5L) : 4 RMB ~ $0.63
    Last edited by deRusett; 05-31-12 at 12:37 PM.
    05-31-12 12:28 PM
  5. morlock_man's Avatar
    So by comparing luxury items? you dictate that the dollar wont go further in China?

    I'll assume that Thailand and China's pricing index for things like Rice and mango are similar

    one can get a 1 Cup of cooked rice and a half a mango for about 20 cents US,
    Where in Canada, 1 cup of cooked rice would be in the $1-2 range for take out, and the half a mango would be another 50-75 cents,
    This is a pretty common lunch in Thailand,
    Point on the rice vs a Big Mac, but...

    That Chinese can of coke was only 250ml, not 355.

    And I don't think very many people would consider coke a luxury item. China is Coke's 3rd largest market in the world, behind the US and Mexico.

    Lets look at bulk rice value then:

    http://www.globaltimes.cn/NEWS/tabid...-for-2012.aspx

    The minimum purchase price for early indica rice will be increased to 120 yuan ($19.01) per 50 kg, up 18 yuan from the 2011 price, the National Development and Reform Commission said in a statement on its website.
    Look at import price of American rice per metric ton and you'll see around $585 currently, or around 60 cents a kilo. Which works out to around $30 per 50kg bag.
    05-31-12 12:48 PM
  6. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Point on the rice vs a Big Mac, but...

    That Chinese can of coke was only 250ml, not 355.

    And I don't think very many people would consider coke a luxury item. China is Coke's 3rd largest market in the world, behind the US and Mexico.

    Lets look at bulk rice value then:

    China raises rice purchase prices for 2012



    Look at import price of American rice per metric ton and you'll see around $585 currently, or around 60 cents a kilo. Which works out to around $30 per 50kg bag.

    China is Cokes 3rd biggest market because of population a small fraction can drink it, and make it a major selling product.
    Coke certainly is a luxury item, it is a drink that provides little to no benefit to the person consuming it beyond taste, Water is a better metric and when looking at what I quoted 1.5L Bottle of water is $0.47 in China, average price is about $1 in the US, premium ones go up exponentially from there,

    Now to address your Rice costs
    so in China bulk Rice is $19.01 per 50kg bag, and in the US it would be $30 per 50kg bag,

    making Rice ~30% more expensive to the whole seller.
    Now in China the whole seller is paying $200 month for labour that his over head must cover with market up,
    in the US we'll assume a minimum wage of $5/h 40h/week * 4 so that is $800 per month,
    or 4 times the overhead cost so his margin needs to be greater to cover the labour costs

    What that means is that the consumer price on that product will be much higher still than just that ~30%
    I know I pay about $12 for my 5Kg bag of rice so that works out to about $120 for my 50Kg of rice, or 4 times the bulk cost ( which actually surprises me I'd think it should be much higher...)
    05-31-12 01:05 PM
  7. morlock_man's Avatar
    Now to address your Rice costs
    so in China bulk Rice is $19.01 per 50kg bag, and in the US it would be $30 per 50kg bag,

    making Rice ~30% more expensive to the whole seller.
    Now in China the whole seller is paying $200 month for labour that his over head must cover with market up,
    in the US we'll assume a minimum wage of $5/h 40h/week * 4 so that is $800 per month,
    or 4 times the overhead cost so his margin needs to be greater to cover the labour costs

    What that means is that the consumer price on that product will be much higher still than just that ~30%
    I know I pay about $12 for my 5Kg bag of rice so that works out to about $120 for my 50Kg of rice, or 4 times the bulk cost ( which actually surprises me I'd think it should be much higher...)
    You can't discount the cost of shipping that ton of rice from China, then repackaging it, which just adds to the final retail cost. A lot of it is done mechanically, with very little human interaction. It's not as though someone actually measures out by hand the amount of rice to put in each bag.

    I also don't think you'll find rice related labourers working in China for $200 a month. That kind of value is reserved for the people assembling dozens of iPads a day.

    Edit:

    Looking at the average minimum wages across China, rice labourers are probably paid closer to $100 a month. Some places it goes as low as $70 per.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ublic_of_China
    Last edited by morlock_man; 05-31-12 at 01:27 PM.
    05-31-12 01:19 PM
  8. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    You can't discount the cost of shipping that ton of rice from China, then repackaging it, which just adds to the final retail cost. A lot of it is done mechanically, with very little human interaction. It's not as though someone actually measures out by hand the amount of rice to put in each bag.

    I also don't think you'll find rice related labourers working in China for $200 a month. That kind of value is reserved for the people assembling dozens of iPads a day.

    Edit:

    Looking at the average minimum wages across China, rice labourers are probably paid closer to $100 a month. Some places it goes as low as $70 per.

    List of minimum wages in People's Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The place with $71/Month ( National minimum of 450yuan ) happens to also be a Agricultural center, which goes along with lower wages for rural people, who generally also have lower costs of living I suspect they buy their rice pretty dang cheap

    I'm not arguing things aren't bad, I'm just arguing that $1 dollar goes a long way in China, compared to in North America, and far more people are used to living on necessity rather than abundance that we are used to living here on.

    And that the Chinese economy IS growing, labour costs ARE going up, and will continue to do so at a rate never seen in North America,
    05-31-12 01:43 PM
  9. morlock_man's Avatar
    The place with $71/Month ( National minimum of 450yuan ) happens to also be a Agricultural center, which goes along with lower wages for rural people, who generally also have lower costs of living I suspect they buy their rice pretty dang cheap
    The price of bag of rice in Guangdong province is still $20 USD per 50 kg bag while their current minimum monthly wage is only $105 USD.

    Compare that with $120 per 50 kg bag here and a minimum monthly wage of $800 (In most places it'll be higher. In Newfoundland you'd be over $1600 per month minimum.

    So in China a 50kg bag goes for 20% of their monthly earnings, while over here its only 15% at worst, but averages closer to 7%.

    And thats not even factoring in these people are probably working around a hundred hours more a month.

    Edit--

    Looking at the prices in Sichuan province, where their minimum wage is $71 USD, they're still paying 3.78 Yuan per kilo, or about $.60 USD. Which turns into $30 per 50kg bag, but I'd hope they're getting a decent bulk rate. At best, they're still probably paying a minimum of $20 per 50kg bag of rice even in the densest agricultural regions.
    Last edited by morlock_man; 05-31-12 at 02:04 PM.
    05-31-12 01:58 PM
  10. WinningWithLogic's Avatar
    As much as you try to avoid it, every time someone picks up the new iPad, they're supporting a giant corporate machine that works people in a 3rd world country to death.
    If you live in America, statistically speaking, this is actually true for almost everything in your life - from the clothes you wear, to the food you eat, to the fuel you use to power your car. If you walk down the logistical chain for almost every major industry that you depend on, at the end of the line there is likely a 3rd world country being exploited.

    This is bigger than Apple.
    brucep1 likes this.
    05-31-12 02:16 PM
  11. brucep1's Avatar
    If you live in America, statistically speaking, this is actually true for almost everything in your life - from the clothes you wear, to the food you eat, to the fuel you use to power your car. If you walk down the logistical chain for almost every major industry that you depend on, at the end of the line there is likely a 3rd world country being exploited.

    This is bigger than Apple.
    Exactly. Not saying what apple does is anything to be praised, but they are being made the poster child for something just about every major industry is guilty of.
    05-31-12 02:21 PM
  12. morlock_man's Avatar
    If you live in America, statistically speaking, this is actually true for almost everything in your life - from the clothes you wear, to the food you eat, to the fuel you use to power your car. If you walk down the logistical chain for almost every major industry that you depend on, at the end of the line there is likely a 3rd world country being exploited.

    This is bigger than Apple.
    I can buy clothes that were made in Canada.

    I can buy a car that was made in Canada.

    I can't buy an iPad made in North America.

    The people building my car and stitching my clothes didn't have a suicide net installed around their factory walls to keep workers from killing themselves.

    Fuel... well, I won't touch that one with a ten foot pole.

    Every major industry may be involved in this to some degree, but Apple is still the 800 lb gorilla in the room.
    05-31-12 02:36 PM
  13. WinningWithLogic's Avatar
    I can buy clothes that were made in Canada.

    I can buy a car that was made in Canada.

    I can't buy an iPad made in North America.

    The people building my car and stitching my clothes didn't have a suicide net installed around their factory walls to keep workers from killing themselves.

    Fuel... well, I won't touch that one with a ten foot pole.

    Every major industry may be involved in this to some degree, but Apple is still the 800 lb gorilla in the room.
    You can't verify the logistics line for a single thing you brought. Even for items that you purchased in Canada/North America are likely built on top of things actually built/cultivated/created in China, Africa, etc...like I said, the logistics lines are complicated these days.

    And no, Apple is not the 800lb gorilla in the room. There are other huge mega multi-billion dollar industries that depend on the same systems of exploitation.

    Also, let's stop pretending like the answer to exploitation of workers in third-world countries is a simple one. It's a ridiculously complex issue, and it sure as heck is more complex than something idiotically simple like "Apple should give their workers more money". There is literally hundreds of documents you could read written by people who actually do know economics discussing this topic.
    05-31-12 02:48 PM
  14. houshinto#IM's Avatar
    Apple is not root of the problem but let's be honest, who here's willing to take the steps to punish the companies that contribute to this general problem of exploitation?

    I don't think many would, as most only end up feeling indifferent and that's sad. We are either forced to admit that the problem is too big to bother with, or we waste our time sniping each other so that we don't feel as if we contribute more then the other.

    All the while the people/organizations/culture is able to continue what is now the status quo.

    This really goes far beyond any one company, but the people defending Apple without addressing and taking action against the bigger problem is just as reprehensible for the current state of exploitation.

    Alrighty! Now just going to wait for the Ayn Rand-Cheap Labour-Ultra Capitalist-Right Wingers to call me out as a socialist/communist/Hippie or some other tripe.
    05-31-12 03:44 PM
  15. morlock_man's Avatar
    Just a thought, but if these people are working 12 hour shifts and sleeping for at least 8 hours, depending on their 4 hours of free time they might not be getting enough sunlight.

    The suicides could be the result of massive vitamin d deficiencies.
    05-31-12 05:30 PM
  16. Bla1ze's Avatar
    Exactly. Not saying what apple does is anything to be praised, but they are being made the poster child for something just about every major industry is guilty of.

    I like this.. good note to shut down this Apple based thread on a BlackBerry Forum.

    http://imore.com, folks!
    howarmat likes this.
    05-31-12 06:18 PM
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