12-05-13 07:17 PM
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  1. addicted44's Avatar
    You are correct regarding the order they were released.

    As for kernel modifications between systems, one has to include the cellular stack, the other does not.

    And they're both still stripped down versions of the full OS X kernel, for which a lot of the iSoftware I mentioned already existed.
    I'm pretty sure the Kernel is still the same. The iPod Touch probably simply doesnt use the parts of the Kernel which refer to the cellular stack (it would be unnecessarily complicated to maintain 2 kernels) but I cannot be sure about this.

    As far as Mac OS X (now OS X) is concerned. Yup. The existence of OS X software did help developers quite a bit with iOS (then iPhone OS) apps, because there were many shared design patterns (MVC, Protocols (although Protocols may have come after iOS...not sure about this), Delegates, Notification Center (again, not sure if this was there before iOS or not)). Additionally, OS X developers were familiar with Objective-C's different syntax, Reference Counting memory management, and with the Cocoa APIs on which iOS's dev APIs were based. Also, developing Mac apps with XCode meant that many developers were familiar with the development tools, and those that were not, had a ton of books and online resources they could rely on.

    iPods, OTOH, provided developers (3rd party and Apple) with absolutely no help in creating the iPhone and the apps on it.
    05-20-12 02:23 PM
  2. app_Developer's Avatar
    Yes, the kernel is the same between iPod Touch and iPhone. I think we've all learned that Crackberry forums aren't exactly the most reliable place to learn about Apple products.

    In other news, many kernels have had dynamically loadable modules for decades.
    Thunderbuck likes this.
    05-20-12 03:34 PM
  3. morlock_man's Avatar
    Yes, the kernel is the same between iPod Touch and iPhone. I think we've all learned that Crackberry forums aren't exactly the most reliable place to learn about Apple products.

    In other news, many kernels have had dynamically loadable modules for decades.
    How exactly does that change the fact that Apple is working from a decade old code base with a lot of the work already done, while RIM is only about a year into real development for their platform?

    Or that the ipod isn't exactly the most complicated piece of hardware in existence, therefore a lot easier to add into the iPhone?
    05-20-12 05:18 PM
  4. app_Developer's Avatar
    How exactly does that change the fact that Apple is working from a decade old code base with a lot of the work already done, while RIM is only about a year into real development for their platform?
    Oh, I agree there. iOS leverages a lot of work from OS X and NeXTSTEP.


    Or that the ipod isn't exactly the most complicated piece of hardware in existence, therefore a lot easier to add into the iPhone?
    As others have pointed out, the legacy iPod platform was not in any way related to iOS. Totally separate group at Apple, and totally different technology track.
    05-20-12 05:40 PM
  5. morlock_man's Avatar
    As others have pointed out, the legacy iPod platform was not in any way related to iOS. Totally separate group at Apple, and totally different technology track.
    Building a media player isn't rocket science. There's hundreds of 3rd party companies who've knocked out pocket media players in the last few years. Hundreds don't knock out smartphones as they're a hel1 of a lot more complicated.

    And the early iPod and iOS devices still aren't completely different as you claim, PIXO is mostly just an OS and graphics layer. The media software layer was still quicktime-based and undoubtably incorporated into the iOS platform.

    None of this changes the fact that Apple had the persistent advantage of re-using old code to develop the iPhone and it still took them years to develop iOS behind closed doors.

    RIM just has the balls to do it out in the open, so people can watch the product evolve.
    Last edited by morlock_man; 05-20-12 at 06:34 PM.
    05-20-12 06:14 PM
  6. app_Developer's Avatar
    Building a media player isn't rocket science. There's hundreds of 3rd party companies who've knocked out pocket media players in the last few years. Hundreds don't knock out smartphones as they're a hel1 of a lot more complicated.
    And yet, as simple as media players are, somehow RIM still hasn't figured out how to make one that will resume videos you've already started? Perhaps they aren't so simple after all.

    But again, the point being that the legacy iPod is unrelated.

    And the early iPod and iOS devices still aren't completely different as you claim, PIXO is mostly just an OS and graphics layer. The media software layer was still quicktime-based and undoubtably incorporated into the iOS platform.
    Weren't you the one just saying that media players are trivial to write? So then, according to your own argument, any shared code between the iPod and iOS is trivial, yes?

    None of this changes the fact that Apple had the persistent advantage of re-using old code to develop the iPhone and it still took them years to develop iOS behind closed doors.
    Absolutely it did, because it turns out (1) they weren't even making a phone for the first few years. They were designing a tablet. (2) The company didn't have the financial strength to introduce something that far out there in the early 2000's. (3) The team was tiny, since most of Apple didn't even know about the project. And (4) They obsessed over some details that a lot of people still don't get. Like have you noticed that touches on iOS don't exactly track your finger literally? They didn't take this naive approach of just reporting touches up the stack literally where the touch happened with some fixed offset. Other companies still haven't figured that out yet (well, you do see some of this in ICS finally, but still not in BB10 as of the alpha)

    RIM just has the balls to do it out in the open, so people can watch the product evolve.
    They made a choice to pre-announce product and sign people up to pay to be beta testers for $200-$500 a pop. If that underlines their manhood for you, then what can I say?

    BTW, I want to emphasize I completely agree that Apple (and for that matter Google and Microsoft) have big advantages in this space, because they are software companies. That's been the whole shift since 2007. On the other hand, RIM has an advantage in that they have WebOS to learn from, they have iOS to learn from, they have Android to learn from, etc.
    Last edited by app_Developer; 05-20-12 at 07:34 PM.
    05-20-12 07:17 PM
  7. addicted44's Avatar
    And the early iPod and iOS devices still aren't completely different as you claim, PIXO is mostly just an OS and graphics layer. The media software layer was still quicktime-based and undoubtably incorporated into the iOS platform.
    .
    Seriously, why don't you just accept the fact that you made a mistake when you said that Apple benefitted from code reuse from the iPod when developing the iPhone, and move on? Especially when it doesnt really hurt your argument that apple benefitted from code reuse (except it was entirely from the Mac, and not the ipod). Even the QuickTime stuff was far more related to QuickTime on the Mac and not QuickTime on the iPod.
    05-20-12 08:27 PM
  8. morlock_man's Avatar
    The beta testers still end up with the finished product, but get to be early adopters.

    I bought a sony ereader in the summer of 2009 when they were first really hitting the market. Paid $500 (import fees) for an ereader you can get now for $150, with a slightly less reflective screen. At least anyone who's picked up a Playbook won't have the same issue.

    While's RIM may have iOS and WebOS and Android to learn from, they can't just directly port their code for native apps. How difficult do you think it was to port native PIM apps to iOS after years in development on OSX? RIM went from Java kernel to a QNX kernel. They wouldn't have the same advantages in that arena.
    05-20-12 08:35 PM
  9. addicted44's Avatar
    The beta testers still end up with the finished product, but get to be early adopters.

    I bought a sony ereader in the summer of 2009 when they were first really hitting the market. Paid $500 (import fees) for an ereader you can get now for $150, with a slightly less reflective screen. At least anyone who's picked up a Playbook won't have the same issue.

    While's RIM may have iOS and WebOS and Android to learn from, they can't just directly port their code for native apps. How difficult do you think it was to port native PIM apps to iOS after years in development on OSX? RIM went from Java kernel to a QNX kernel. They wouldn't have the same advantages in that arena.
    I think the PB for the most part would have been fine, if it wasn't for the co-CEOs penchant to put their feet in their mouths. In this case it was by promising a host of features to be available within a few months of the original release. Features which did not actually arrive until about a year later with OS2.0.
    Thunderbuck likes this.
    05-20-12 09:37 PM
  10. morlock_man's Avatar
    Mac OS X Leopard was delayed a year due to the development of the iPhone going on at the same time.

    I agree that the co-founders bit off more than they could chew. The lack of an established ecosystem really hurt them. Apple didn't even have to worry about that as originally they created that ecosystem themselves. But it was still half a year between the release of the iPhone and the first SDK for 3rd party developers.

    I'd say RIM introduced delay and confusion into their roadmap when they opted for Android support. But they had to do something the attract developers until Cascades was ready. The PIM apps are still under development as are the remainder of the native apps. Even the browser is being redone using Cascades. Likely the media player and every other app shy of the calculator is going to be redone. In another year or two, Android support could simply fade away in favor of native apps (fingers crossed). Unless they really smooth out the Android VM and multitasking. It seems an overly complicated addition to what could be a very elegant and efficient platform.

    Everything about the platform is unfinished. It's obvious. Look at the lack of USB OTG support. It's baked into the hardware, but inaccessible.

    But they're concentrating on things like wifi bridge, which i'm looking forwards to in anticipation. The ability to throw a 32GB card in my torch and access it with N-level speeds is pretty sick. And bridge texting is another decent feature that wasn't really expected, but makes sense when you consider the nature of the wifi bridge. I'm also looking forward to additional features that will only become available with a paired PB and BB10 phone.

    It's not just the same old stuff anymore. Skype is being worked on, Netflix is being obviously anti-RIM, the PIM apps are nearing completion, Android apps are each getting their own runtime, a HPSA+ and LTE PlayBook is on the way likely with slightly upgraded specs, and Cascades is out for developers to play with. That's a lot of ground to cover in a year. And that's just a couples of the features they're telling us about, there is definitely more kept under wraps.

    I'm looking forwards to the free upgrades. I work from my playbook, but also play games, surf, post in forums, read waaay too many comics, but apparently I get to keep getting upgrades and new features for free. What's not to like?

    Heck of a lot better than an ereader that cost me twice as much for 8 level greyscale static text and pictures.
    05-20-12 10:48 PM
  11. chr1sny's Avatar
    Stock is less than $11
    05-23-12 01:03 PM
  12. OzarkaTexile's Avatar
    On it's way to single digits...
    05-24-12 02:39 PM
  13. dandbj13's Avatar
    Nah. Too soon. It was like this yesterday. At the last minute, there was a nice bounce for the whole market. It might take another week before we see single digits. The question is, what happens then?
    05-24-12 02:46 PM
  14. OMGitworks's Avatar
    Nah. Too soon. It was like this yesterday. At the last minute, there was a nice bounce for the whole market. It might take another week before we see single digits. The question is, what happens then?
    THEN, we either see a buyout by another company or some fund takes RIMM private. At this point Prem Watsa should pretty much throw the rest of his money at it and see if he can get his $500M back. The only thing saving RIMM from the vultures is the Canadian government. Too bad that same thing is killing the shareholders. If RIMM was such a bargain at $30 and $25 and $20 and $15 what is it at $10?
    05-24-12 02:51 PM
  15. dandbj13's Avatar
    THEN, we either see a buyout by another company or some fund takes RIMM private. At this point Prem Watsa should pretty much throw the rest of his money at it and see if he can get his $500M back. The only thing saving RIMM from the vultures is the Canadian government. Too bad that same thing is killing the shareholders. If RIMM was such a bargain at $30 and $25 and $20 and $15 what is it at $10?
    This!

    It frightens me that the stock price could destroy the company before BB10 is released. I would hate to see that happen. I thought $10 would be the drop dead number. At this rate, they will be below $7 by the time BB10 is out. That is not survivable. Something has to give, and fast. I can't believe I'm saying this, but it might be better for them to rush it out the door unfinished, just to give the fans something to get excited over. They may not have time for a perfect release.
    05-24-12 02:59 PM
  16. lewis71980's Avatar
    Would quite like RIM and Yammer to team up a bit more.
    05-24-12 03:18 PM
  17. OzarkaTexile's Avatar
    This!

    It frightens me that the stock price could destroy the company before BB10 is released. I would hate to see that happen. I thought $10 would be the drop dead number. At this rate, they will be below $7 by the time BB10 is out. That is not survivable. Something has to give, and fast. I can't believe I'm saying this, but it might be better for them to rush it out the door unfinished, just to give the fans something to get excited over. They may not have time for a perfect release.
    The stock price is not destroying the company. The company is destroying the stock price.
    05-24-12 03:33 PM
  18. the_sleuth's Avatar
    RIMM: RESEARCH IN MOTION LTD - Full Company Report

    I continue to be bearish on RIMM going into next earnings release. Investors must preserve their capital for another day. Don't be surprised if it trades between $8 to $10 this summer.

    Being a fan of the technology at times makes for poor investments.
    05-24-12 07:13 PM
  19. kemj's Avatar
    U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission

    Going Private

    A publicly held company generally means a company that has a class of securities that is registered with the Commission because those securities are widely held or traded on a national securities exchange. When a public company is eligible to deregister a class of its equity securities, either because those securities are no longer widely held or because they are delisted from an exchange, this is known as going private.

    A publicly held company may deregister its equity securities when they are held by less than 300 shareholders of record or less than 500 shareholders of record, where the company does not have significant assets. Depending on the facts and circumstances, the company may no longer be required to file periodic reports with the SEC once the number of shareholders of record drops below the above thresholds.

    A number of kinds of transactions can result in a company going private, including:

    Another company or individual makes a tender offer to buy all or most of the companys publicly held shares;
    The company merges with or sells all or substantially all of the companys assets to another company; or
    The company declares a reverse stock split that reduces the number of shareholders of record. In a reverse stock split, the company typically gives shareholders a single new share in exchange for a block10, 100, or even 1,000 sharesof the old shares. If a shareholder does not have a sufficient number of old shares to exchange for new shares, the company will usually pay the shareholder cash instead of issuing a new share, thus eliminating some smaller shareholders of record and reducing the total number of shareholders.
    If an affiliate of the company or the company itself is engaged in one of these kinds of transactions or series of transactions that will cause a class of equity securities to become eligible for deregistration or delisting, Rule 13e-3 of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 and Schedule 13E-3 may apply. When Rule 13e-3 applies, the company is said to be going private under SEC rules. While SEC rules don't prevent companies from going private, they do require companies to provide specific information to shareholders about the transaction that caused the company to go private. In addition to a Schedule 13E-3, the company and/or the affiliates engaged in the transaction also may have to file a proxy or a tender offer statement with the SEC.

    When one of the kinds of transactions listed above involving a company or its affiliates results in a companys publicly held securities becoming delisted from a national securities exchange or an inter-dealer quotation system of any national securities association, Rule 13e-3 and Schedule 13E-3 may also apply.

    Schedule 13E-3 requires a discussion of the purposes of the transaction, any alternatives that the company considered, and whether the transaction is fair to unaffiliated shareholders. The Schedule also must disclose whether and why any of its directors disagreed with the transaction or abstained from voting on the transaction and whether a majority of directors who are not company employees approved the transaction.

    Going private transactions require shareholders to make difficult decisions. To protect shareholders, some states have adopted corporate takeover statutes that provide shareholders with dissenter's rights. These statutes provide shareholders the opportunity to sell their shares on the terms offered, to challenge the transaction in court, or to hold on to the shares. Once the transaction is concluded, remaining shareholders may find it very difficult to sell their retained shares because of a limited trading market.

    Going Private
    05-24-12 07:31 PM
  20. Shlooky's Avatar
    The Canadian government will not protect RIM from a buyout, who or where did you get this info from?
    05-24-12 10:14 PM
  21. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    The stock price is not destroying the company. The company is destroying the stock price.
    Pray tell, what should they be doing now that they aren't?
    Stewartj1 likes this.
    05-24-12 11:29 PM
  22. Anthooo's Avatar
    it's called a buying opp. I once remember Apple selling at $9.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9930 using Tapatalk
    05-24-12 11:41 PM
  23. morlock_man's Avatar
    Stock has started it's Friday climb.

    Don’t miss the BlackBerry Enterprise Application showcase on May 30th (Virtual Event)

    RIM has an online launch scheduled for next week and are likely going to announcing the 4G LTE Playbook and dev beta for PB OS 2.1

    If it's like it was before the keynote, the stock should climb preceding the announcement, but with the focus aimed at enterprise customers instead of developers it should have more 'wow' factor to investors. Spence leaving was likely the last bit of house cleaning before the new launch.

    I'm excited to see how they've implemented their newly acquired LTE tek from Paratek. Next week should be a good week for the stock.
    05-25-12 10:52 AM
  24. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Stock has started it's Friday climb.

    Dont miss the BlackBerry Enterprise Application showcase on May 30th (Virtual Event)

    RIM has an online launch scheduled for next week and are likely going to announcing the 4G LTE Playbook and dev beta for PB OS 2.1

    If it's like it was before the keynote, the stock should climb preceding the announcement, but with the focus aimed at enterprise customers instead of developers it should have more 'wow' factor to investors. Spence leaving was likely the last bit of house cleaning before the new launch.

    I'm excited to see how they've implemented their newly acquired LTE tek from Paratek. Next week should be a good week for the stock.
    As much as I'd like to believe you, I'm skeptical not so much of RIM, but of the market in general right now.

    I'm also concerned that there may be a lack of actual news. The 4G Playbook has been in the pipeline for a while, so it won't surprise anyone (with the possible exception of it supporting either microSD or USB2GO). If there's a good CUSTOMER announcement (better than Martha Stewart Living being up on Fusion for a matter of a few days, for instance), that might get some market response.

    Otherwise, I'm assuming the stock will remain in a slow downward drift until the next earnings call. It's anyone's guess where it will go from there.
    05-25-12 02:47 PM
  25. SlcCorrado's Avatar
    I'm still in. I bought more at 11. Not great, but how do any of us really know how low it will go before it bounce... If it bounces
    Thunderbuck likes this.
    05-25-12 06:14 PM
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