12-05-13 07:17 PM
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  1. dandbj13's Avatar
    talk about going off topic...

    so the stock's up 4.5% today. at least that's a good sign.
    Sign of what? AAPL has dropped $110 in the last few months, and they are killing it in the marketplace. RIMM is (for the moment) moving up, and they are doing nothing of note. I have no idea what makes the market move. I would love to hear from someone who does.
    05-17-12 01:19 PM
  2. morlock_man's Avatar
    If the Playbook had launched with its current price point, with RIM just absorbing the R&D costs entirely, do you think Apple would have cried foul?

    He11 yeah they would have. They would have accused Canadians of trying to dump product and flood the marketplace.
    05-17-12 01:19 PM
  3. dandbj13's Avatar
    If the Playbook had launched with its current price point, with RIM just absorbing the R&D costs entirely, do you think Apple would have cried foul?

    He11 yeah they would have. They would have accused Canadians of trying to dump product and flood the marketplace.
    When has Apple ever claimed that about any of the craplets on the market?
    05-17-12 01:21 PM
  4. morlock_man's Avatar
    They didn't complain because it didn't happen.

    But if it did, they would have been trying to block imports like they were doing with Samsung.
    05-17-12 01:27 PM
  5. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Nope, I'm not saying that at all. I will suggest though that RIM assumed it was finished enough to release, knowing full well that most other similar devices are released in a relative unfinished state (please, that is not an invitation to begin arguing what has been released more unfinished or less). I don't think that's what Mr. Morlock is saying either, although he'd have to clarify that himself. I gave up trying to decipher the underlying thoughts of others for Lent ... and liked it.
    What I think happened was that the Playbook product management went into a panic, and decided that they just HAD to go head-to-head with the iPad 2, which turned out to be a horrendously bad decision on many levels:

    • RIM's "conjecture" management style likely led to several teams nodding their heads yes when asked if they'd be ready, when they really didn't have an f'n clue
    • Arrogant executives believed the BlackBerry brand carried enough equity to make up for the "app gap"
    • They were delusional enough to believe that that much of the market was waiting for a BlackBerry tablet over an Apple one


    What would have been better was a delay of 4 or 5 months. Would have given RIM time to get a stronger app portfolio in place, and would have given them an introduction that wouldn't have been overshadowed by the iPad 2 avalanche.

    It didn't happen, though, and it was just about as disastrous a tech launch as I can think of. Fortunately, Thorsten seems to have a grip on what RIM needs to do to get past it. It's going to take a while.
    app_Developer likes this.
    05-17-12 01:28 PM
  6. dandbj13's Avatar
    They didn't complain because it didn't happen.

    But if it did, they would have been trying to block imports like they were doing with Samsung.
    They are blocking Samsung because they are serial copyists. It has nothing to do with price points. There are plenty of craplets on the market that are dirt cheap. Apple didn't seem to have a problem with them. Why would they care about the one in Canada, which is selling for dirt cheap?
    05-17-12 01:31 PM
  7. waker's Avatar
    I think this is relevant. Rim is just too far out of the game imo. I used to pull sooo hard for rim but two storms later.. ouch..

    "Simply put, the BlackBerry is now fourth in what looks like a two-horse race in the global smartphone market. RIM trails Samsung, which has been wildly successful with its Galaxy line of phones running on Google's (GOOG, Fortune 500) Android, and Apple (AAPL, Fortune 500) and its iPhone by a wide margin in market share.

    RIM is also behind Nokia (NOK), which is hoping to claw its way back to relevance by hitching its wagon to Microsoft's (MSFT, Fortune 500) Windows Phone operating system..

    Carriers are not going to subsidize the fourth-place phone," he said. "So RIM is going to have to spend on marketing and customer promotions to try to gain market share. When you do that, you can blow through your cash quickly."

    Research in Motion: Just call it the BleakBerry -- The Buzz - May. 7, 2012
    05-17-12 01:31 PM
  8. sleepngbear's Avatar
    So we should all just fold up our tents and go home now...because according to these geniuses, it's all over but the crying.
    05-17-12 01:48 PM
  9. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    I think this is relevant. Rim is just too far out of the game imo. I used to pull sooo hard for rim but two storms later.. ouch..

    "Simply put, the BlackBerry is now fourth in what looks like a two-horse race in the global smartphone market. RIM trails Samsung, which has been wildly successful with its Galaxy line of phones running on Google's (GOOG, Fortune 500) Android, and Apple (AAPL, Fortune 500) and its iPhone by a wide margin in market share.

    RIM is also behind Nokia (NOK), which is hoping to claw its way back to relevance by hitching its wagon to Microsoft's (MSFT, Fortune 500) Windows Phone operating system..

    Carriers are not going to subsidize the fourth-place phone," he said. "So RIM is going to have to spend on marketing and customer promotions to try to gain market share. When you do that, you can blow through your cash quickly."

    Research in Motion: Just call it the BleakBerry -- The Buzz - May. 7, 2012
    They're only that far behind Nokia if you count ALL phones, not just Smartphones. Note that RIM is ahead of both Sony and HTC, and I don't hear anyone insisting THEY leave the phone business. Note, as well, that Nokia's a prime example of why market share isn't everything--they're hemorrhaging cash to the point where MS is reluctantly considering a $1bln bailout just to keep them in a position to keep producing Windows Phones.

    RIM is bringing a new, fresh platform to market. There will be benefits in that. Security should be top-notch (and with Android malware running rampant, that is a growing concern). Fortunately, even with a fresh platform, it's easy for existing Android and iOS developers to adapt their apps.

    RIM has unique strengths in this market, and they appear to have management that realistically sees the challenges and is doing what it needs to to deal with them.

    The stock is undervalued, but I recognize that it may take some time for the financial community to trust that.
    app_Developer likes this.
    05-17-12 02:02 PM
  10. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I enjoyed programming in assembly language though I originally began programming in machine code first due to the lack of an assembler at the time for my Commodore VIC-20. I used to write on paper the code in assembly language complete with addresses and then hand translate the assembler mnemonics into machine code (0x00-0xFF). This led me many years later to develop a small operating system entirely in assembly language using MS/PC-DOS DEBUG. Admittedly, my very first programming language was Commodore PET BASIC.

    deRusett, I used to hold you in such high esteem. Now you are lower than a mortal instead of a cloud-dwelling god.
    LMAO,

    well I only saw Assembly for Intel x86 processors, in early 2000's and I was a big fan of web technologies, I was obsessed that the world was going the way of Web applications, and I didn't need to spend time on system level coding,
    .NET when released would change the internet...... lol oh to be 19 again eh
    05-17-12 02:11 PM
  11. OMGitworks's Avatar
    The PlayBook has been RIM's big joke on the industry.

    Sure, you can concentrate on the 'play' aspect of the name and assume its aiming to be some sort of gaming system, but really its closer to the definition used in competitive sports like football.



    The PlayBook itself has just been a demo unit and a testbed. It's still not even in it's final form, not even considering the UI. The initial versions of their final development tools are just being released now and some APIs still aren't finished. Anyone who wants to talk about the success of the Playbook had better wait until it's actually a finished product.

    They introduced the unit at a price point close to the iPad 2 to highlight the level of technology going into both systems. Then dropped the price to expand their userbase once the industry would no longer accuse them of dumping to get the product into hands of their beta testers and developers. Then wrote it off as a half billion dollar loss, instead of the half billion dollar marketing and developing investment it really was.

    RIM is playing a very cold a calculating game right now. It's quite fun to watch as they're playing their hands very close to their chest. But the information is available for anyone who's seen the devices and understands the system architecture.

    I wouldn't have seen it coming if they hadn't dropped the prices. I was planning on buying a Droid last year, but changed my mind when the 'firesale' happened. Once I actually had my hands on one, I started reading up on the architecture and capabilities of QNX, especially as it will pertain to the evolution of the cloud. It's the foundation of the future.

    To borrow a phrase from an old Apple commercial...





    Seriously??? ... If any of this was true the entire board should be removed. This is an entirely inaccurate view of what actually happened. For some any reasons this is wrong, wrong, wrong. I do give you credit for trying to put a positive spin on an absolutely terrible fail of a launch of a "game changing" product. Its great there are still some true believers out there even when the facts are so clearly against them!
    05-17-12 02:40 PM
  12. OzarkaTexile's Avatar
    Carriers are not going to subsidize the fourth-place phone," he said. "So RIM is going to have to spend on marketing and customer promotions to try to gain market share. When you do that, you can blow through your cash quickly."

    Research in Motion: Just call it the BleakBerry -- The Buzz - May. 7, 2012
    RIM has cash to spend on marketing and customer promotions. Right now, they have nothing to market, and their marketing has been ineffective and out of touch.

    "Wake up"
    "Tools not toys"
    "Amateur Hour is Over"

    That last one kills me every time.
    05-17-12 02:42 PM
  13. OMGitworks's Avatar
    Which part exactly is rubbish? Every single critic of the PlayBook called it an unfinished product when it was released. I believe the much overused description was 'half-baked', an expression which to this day makes me cringe. I will neither accept nor reject that sentiment, as it is all relative and purely a matter of opinion. The fact of the matter is, we are watching a QNX-based mobile OS evolve before our eyes on the PlayBook tablet. The current tablet OS has come a long way since it was first introduced, and will advance at least that much again before we see it in the form of BB10 on a handheld devices, which makes a lot of that which you mock pretty dead-on-balls accurate.
    Unfinished was criticism of the product not an apology for what was clearly a not yet ready for the market product. Don't confuse criticism with a marketing strategy.
    05-17-12 02:43 PM
  14. OMGitworks's Avatar
    Einhorn sold half his RIM but Jim Simons went the other way and bought five times what Einhorn sold.

    "Jim Simons bought 463 new stocks for his firm Renaissance Technologies' portfolio, which contains 2,805 holdings. The top new buys are: Time Warner Inc. ( TWX ), Research In Motion ( RIMM )......Simons' second-largest new buy was Research In Motion ( RIMM ) . He bought 7,293,357 shares at an average price of $15."

    Read more: Jim Simons Buys Time Warner, Research In Motion, JC Penney, CME and Schlumberger - NASDAQ.com
    Great and this lucky new, can't lose investment has only gone down 25% or about $26,250,000. He must be a genius!!!!!

    JC Penny went down 40% since he bought that so I guess RIMM must be one of his top performers.
    Last edited by OMGitworks; 05-17-12 at 02:49 PM. Reason: added JCP info
    05-17-12 02:46 PM
  15. OzarkaTexile's Avatar
    If the Playbook had launched with its current price point, with RIM just absorbing the R&D costs entirely, do you think Apple would have cried foul?

    He11 yeah they would have. They would have accused Canadians of trying to dump product and flood the marketplace.
    I'm not sure there is any price point that would make the Playbook popular, but I am sure that $199 is not it. RIM simply can't move the Playbook. It's a failure in every way imaginable. Most companies would simply sweep it under the rug (Kin style), but RIM needs to keep it around until BB10 phones hit the market.

    RIM did flood the market with dumped Playbooks, but Best Buy made them take them all back.
    05-17-12 02:54 PM
  16. pwgillam's Avatar
    I'm not sure there is any price point that would make the Playbook popular, but I am sure that $199 is not it. RIM simply can't move the Playbook. It's a failure in every way imaginable. Most companies would simply sweep it under the rug (Kin style), but RIM needs to keep it around until BB10 phones hit the market.

    RIM did flood the market with dumped Playbooks, but Best Buy made them take them all back.
    I have a PlayBook, that I purchased the first week of availability. Although there have been times that I have been frustrated with a lack of apps, ability to watch tv shows, etc, I do not believe that it is a "failure in every way." It is a great piece of hardware/software that keeps getting better. And I am excited to see what BB10 will bring, and for the comments that developing are making about it. I hope that Adobe and some of the other design/fine art companies make their apps available for the PB.

    I also own an iPad, that I purchased recently to use creative apps and a stylus. I like them both (iPad/PB) for different reasons. One of my frustrations with the iPad is that I need to close and open apps, instead of having a number open and swipe between them.

    (edited when I remembered that the original post was about the stock. Sorry for the off topic comments.)
    Last edited by pwgillam; 05-17-12 at 04:11 PM. Reason: edited when I remembered that the original post was about the stock.
    05-17-12 04:09 PM
  17. xs11e's Avatar
    I want to ditch my Android phone for a newer, better BlackBerry but I'm afraid it's not going to happen.

    RIM has made too many mistakes, their position seems to be hopeless and the investors recognize the fact that RIM, barring a miracle, is dead. Like Palm, they may struggle along for another year or so but they'll have to fold up sooner or later.

    I sure hope I'm wrong but I'd never allow my broker to buy a single share of RIM stock!

    I'll miss them, I so miss the days when my 8330 was arguably the best smart phone in existence but those days are gone and so will be RIM.
    05-17-12 04:24 PM
  18. sleepngbear's Avatar
    The Kin was a failure. Web OS was a failure, but only because HP let it be so. The Lisa was a miserable failure. You could almost say Windows Vista was a failure.

    Keeping that in mind, let me just point out that no Android-run tabs are setting the market on fire, and in fact there are a few that have sold even fewer units than the PlayBook. Considering that RIM is still putting effort into keeping the PlayBook alive and that interest and opinion are both on the upswing, it is way too early to call it a failure of any kind, let alone in every way. Add to that the points that have already been made here re: a QNX testbed. No, it wasn't the rousing market disruptor that Mike and Jim would have had us believing it would be just over a year ago, but it is providing RIM and the market with features and benefits that competitors did not and do not have.

    Take the first iPhone. Would anyone in their right mind call that a complete product when it was first released? Yes I know, it was the first whatever-you-want-to-call-it, blah, blah, blah. But that does not change the fact that it was an incomplete product considering what it has evolved into and what all its competitors are doing. RIM will (should) not have that problem with BB10, because they gave themselves a head start with QNX in the PlayBook.

    On its own merits, PlayBook's performance has been a disappointment (sales, not the device itself). But in the big picture, the book has yet to be written. Wall Street will not see it, because the benefits won't be realized for at least another 9-12 months, and none of those wonks can see past this quarter. They want to see results now, and they haven't seen anything that's going to give them any now, so the stock price is in the toilet now. That's how it works with those people, plain and simple.
    Blackberry_boffin likes this.
    05-17-12 05:22 PM
  19. sleepngbear's Avatar
    I want to ditch my Android phone for a newer, better BlackBerry but I'm afraid it's not going to happen.

    RIM has made too many mistakes, their position seems to be hopeless and the investors recognize the fact that RIM, barring a miracle, is dead. Like Palm, they may struggle along for another year or so but they'll have to fold up sooner or later.

    I sure hope I'm wrong but I'd never allow my broker to buy a single share of RIM stock!

    I'll miss them, I so miss the days when my 8330 was arguably the best smart phone in existence but those days are gone and so will be RIM.
    Ok, you go with that.
    05-17-12 05:23 PM
  20. FRG_RC's Avatar
    You know... People on here keep saying over, and over again "RIM is dead!" But... That's not what we, in the emerging markets, feel, every single time I go out I see A LOT of BlackBerry's and not just cheap curves, like I have, I have seen EVERY SINGLE MODEL out there, I have even seen a STORM 2 lol

    I think is just a perception issue, people in developed countries tend to believe we in the emerging economies are poor, really poor people who can't afford a 9900 or even a Playbook.... well I don't know how is in South East Asia, but here in Latin America RIM rules the market, I only have seen an iPhone, and I was a 4 one, and I have seen at least 3 Bold's 9900, this week alone, so it's not a matter of "poor people."

    Not get me wrong I know that RIM NEEDS the NA market, but in no way is a dying company like was palm. Stock value is just a form of gambling and as someone already said, they don't care about what the future, this being anywhere 6+ months away, they just care about THIS quarter, or so I believe
    05-17-12 05:44 PM
  21. morlock_man's Avatar
    When BB10 is completed, the Playbook will finally be a finished product. In the meantime, it's still missing core functionality.

    If the Playbook sales don't increase when BB10 drops, I'll eat my t-shirt.
    05-17-12 05:51 PM
  22. dandbj13's Avatar
    But in the big picture, the book has yet to be written. Wall Street will not see it, because the benefits won't be realized for at least another 9-12 months, and none of those wonks can see past this quarter. They want to see results now, and they haven't seen anything that's going to give them any now, so the stock price is in the toilet now. That's how it works with those people, plain and simple.
    Let me get this straight. The book on the PB's failure hasn't been written yet? How many chapters need to be written? Investors are stupid because they don't see the PB making a big comeback in the next year? In a fast moving segment of the market, you really believe it takes two years before you can know whether a product is a success or failure? We can usually tell in the first two days when it comes to mobile. Two months, certainly. Two quarters is more than definitive. Two years is an eternity for an item people should have replaced by then.
    05-17-12 05:55 PM
  23. morlock_man's Avatar
    Let me get this straight. The book on the PB's failure hasn't been written yet? How many chapters need to be written? Investors are stupid because they don't see the PB making a big comeback in the next year? In a fast moving segment of the market, you really believe it takes two years before you can know whether a product is a success or failure? We can usually tell in the first two days when it comes to mobile. Two months, certainly. Two quarters is more than definitive. Two years is an eternity for an item people should have replaced by then.
    That throwaway mentality is whats both driving and killing the industry.

    Companies like Apple sell you on the idea that you always need the next best thing, when really they're just releasing the products in a manner that relies on this sort of planned obsolescence.

    If the Playbook, with full functionality, does exactly what you need it do to, why feel obligated to upgrade? I prefer to use a device until it's almost dead before replacing it. Or until it's missing some core functionality that I require.

    Unlike some other companies who're 'resting on their laurels', RIM is inventing new functionality for the Playbook. They don't need to double the resolution or add '4G' that only works in North America.
    05-17-12 06:03 PM
  24. Rickroller's Avatar
    That throwaway mentality is whats both driving and killing the industry.
    I wouldn't say the "throwaway" mentality is killing the industry, but rather killing those within the industry that can't adapt quick enough.
    05-17-12 06:15 PM
  25. Blackberry_boffin's Avatar
    When BB10 is completed, the Playbook will finally be a finished product. In the meantime, it's still missing core functionality.

    If the Playbook sales don't increase when BB10 drops, I'll eat my t-shirt.
    It's not perfect but I'd be careful with terms like "core functionality" if I were you.
    What on earth is that?
    05-17-12 06:44 PM
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