09-27-13 07:23 AM
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  1. BBPandy's Avatar
    Somehow "better labor laws than China" is not all that comforting; it's like saying you're the richest person in a homeless shelter.

    Also, you left out Quanta Taiwan, which manufactures the PlayBook, at least when they're in production.
    No I didn't, it's #3 on the list

    While that's true, the Thread asked what are the conditions at RIM's Plants...better then the homeless shelter is still, better then the homeless shelter.....Just like if you don't have an iPhone, well you don't have an iPhone
    02-11-12 12:22 AM
  2. BBPandy's Avatar
    What child labor? Source?


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    How about Apple's OWN audit....But don't worry, Apple made the managment take a seminar on how bad child labour is & also pay some $$ to the parents of the kids...BUT only to the parents of the kids they (Apple) found.
    02-11-12 12:28 AM
  3. mikelcal's Avatar
    Well in your opinion is the reports about Foxconn true or not? Seems like this whole thread everyone is either saying it is OK for workers to be treated that way, or there are other companies just not Apple complain about them all everyone wants to do is bash Apple.

    The simple question is are workers mistreated and as a consumer will it change your purchasing habits? If they are mistreated than Apple has a part in that.
    You are right on the money here. Should we give our business to a company who is in a position to affect the living conditions of millions and does nothing about it to just so that they can keep their bottom line?

    I feel some comfort in the fact that if RIM has horrible working conditions it is not concentrated in one place, and that at least in Canada, people can claim having a decent job assembling 'berries.
    02-11-12 12:54 AM
  4. stackberry369's Avatar
    The iphone shall now be called the foxconnphone.
    02-11-12 03:13 AM
  5. stackberry369's Avatar
    Nothing like working in that coal mine at 12 years old. Those damn kids had free ride for 11 years, right.
    you joking right?12yr olds working in a damn coalmine?I bet they didn't live to see 20 b/c of blacklung.
    02-11-12 03:26 AM
  6. i7guy's Avatar
    No I didn't, it's #3 on the list

    While that's true, the Thread asked what are the conditions at RIM's Plants...better then the homeless shelter is still, better then the homeless shelter.....Just like if you don't have an iPhone, well you don't have an iPhone
    The suicide rate is lower in a homeless shelter. Sheesh.
    02-11-12 08:41 AM
  7. MartyMcfly's Avatar
    I agree. IMHO Apple is getting all the bad press right now because they're the big fish which literally does control Foxxconn in a way. Apple can apply pressure to get better gross margins from their suppliers because it is literally millions of dollar of business that can't be easily replaced. Apple has the stick and they use it, Foxxconn wields under the pressure. It's common over in Asia for the bigger companies in their respective industries to do this. Over here it's called profits for investors.

    Other companies like RIM don't have the stick so to speak to apply the pressure so they don't get the same prices as a company like Apple.

    The big thing that Americans should be upset about is the amount of foreign profits and cash that Apple has and they have no plans of either giving a dividend or paying income taxes in the USA. That is a huge difference compared to many US companies.
    Why should Americans be upset about apple's cash? If you could avoid paying 30-35% taxes on money you made I'm pretty sure you would keep your cash in foreign accounts. They are not doing anything illegal.


    Sent from my IPhone 4s using Tapatalk
    02-11-12 10:05 AM
  8. stackberry369's Avatar
    Why should Americans be upset about apple's cash? If you could avoid paying 30-35% taxes on money you made I'm pretty sure you would keep your cash in foreign accounts. They are not doing anything illegal. Just b/c it is legal doesn't make it right.


    Sent from my IPhone 4s using Tapatalk
    just b/c it is legal doesn't make it right.
    02-11-12 10:28 AM
  9. grover5's Avatar
    Foxxconnphone...that has a nice ring to it.
    02-11-12 10:34 AM
  10. grover5's Avatar
    Why should Americans be upset about apple's cash? If you could avoid paying 30-35% taxes on money you made I'm pretty sure you would keep your cash in foreign accounts. They are not doing anything illegal.


    Sent from my IPhone 4s using Tapatalk
    The American way right...money over all else. Why should they pay back to the country that provided the environment and opportunity for their success? Why support the system that helped put them on top? I don't think their rate is 30 to 35.
    02-11-12 10:38 AM
  11. Economist101's Avatar
    The big thing that Americans should be upset about is the amount of foreign profits and cash that Apple has and they have no plans of either giving a dividend or paying income taxes in the USA. That is a huge difference compared to many US companies.
    The reason they don't pay a divined is because share prices keep climbing. Microsoft, on the other hand, pays dividends in part because their share price hasn't appreciated over the last ten years. Shareholders prefer share gain to dividends, but if you're not making gains, dividends can be a nice pacifier.

    As for the offshore funds, please feel free to provide a list of companies that aren't taking advantage of keeping funds off shore to reduce tax liability. Here's a hint: almost all companies with non-U.S. operations do exactly the same thing.
    02-11-12 10:43 AM
  12. Economist101's Avatar
    The American way right...money over all else.
    It's called "capitalism." Like it or not, it's what we have. Funny how this wasn't a problem until this week.

    Why should they pay back to the country that provided the environment and opportunity for their success? Why support the system that helped put them on top?
    Again, funny how this was never a problem until this week. If you don't like the laws, change them. I wish you luck; you'll need it.

    I don't think their rate is 30 to 35.
    Their rate is 35% because that's the corporate tax rate, it's their "effective" rate which is somewhere below that, but I'll guarantee you it's higher than Mitt Romney's.
    02-11-12 10:52 AM
  13. kbz1960's Avatar
    I've always wondered about the mentality that screams: "If you're not willing to travel to China and storm the gates at Foxconn, you're not allowed to post your opinion!!" People are allowed opinions, and are allowed to express those opinions, regardless of whether they're hypocritical. Furthermore, just because they haven't 'taken action,' whatever that may mean, doesn't make them hypocrites.

    Exchanging of information and debate is the root of action, be glad you live in a nation that allows you to discuss issues freely, and stop trying to censor your peers.
    And did I say anyone was being a hypocrite? Nope. Just tired of how many threads on the same subject now? I'll leave the censoring to the mods as I don't have the power to censor anything.

    I see you would like to censor my opinion.
    02-11-12 10:55 AM
  14. kbz1960's Avatar
    Why should Americans be upset about apple's cash? If you could avoid paying 30-35% taxes on money you made I'm pretty sure you would keep your cash in foreign accounts. They are not doing anything illegal.


    Sent from my IPhone 4s using Tapatalk
    Exactly. If anything we should be upset at our government for being idiots and making ignorant decisions and forcing companies to take their money elsewhere and allowing it to happen.
    02-11-12 11:00 AM
  15. grover5's Avatar
    It's called "capitalism." Like it or not, it's what we have. Funny how this wasn't a problem until this week.



    Again, funny how this was never a problem until this week. If you don't like the laws, change them. I wish you luck; you'll need it.



    Their rate is 35% because that's the corporate tax rate, it's their "effective" rate which is somewhere below that, but I'll guarantee you it's higher than Mitt Romney's.
    This has always been a problem for me and always will be. If you like it then good for you. I work regularly to change it. I believe capitalism requires regulation because of greed. I have always railed against any and all companies that hide their money and don't pay their share. My comment wasn't specific to apple but they sure are one on the list...as is google who used NSF funds to get started and now hides their obligations.
    02-11-12 11:01 AM
  16. i7guy's Avatar
    It's called "capitalism." Like it or not, it's what we have. Funny how this wasn't a problem until this week.



    Again, funny how this was never a problem until this week. If you don't like the laws, change them. I wish you luck; you'll need it.



    Their rate is 35% because that's the corporate tax rate, it's their "effective" rate which is somewhere below that, but I'll guarantee you it's higher than Mitt Romney's.
    It wasn't a problem this week, it was a problem for a while. It just came to a head this week.
    02-11-12 11:07 AM
  17. palmless's Avatar
    just b/c it is legal doesn't make it right.
    It's legal AND right, I do understand that.

    Should Apple say "We have $10M that we earned in a country, in a bank in that country. The right thing to do would be to bring it into the United States and pay 3x% tax on it for no reason. That would be the right thing to do even though we have no legal nor moral obligation to do so... we just, uh, should."

    Here's a hint.

    People who think like that never need to think like that, because you don't end up with a lot of money if you think like that for a long period of time.
    02-11-12 11:09 AM
  18. sosumi11's Avatar
    It wasn't a problem this week, it was a problem for a while. It just came to a head this week.
    In other words, it wasn't a problem if companies made small profits from foreign labor policies. It's only when companies make large profits from foreign labor policies that it becomes a problem.

    It's just like the perception of saving trees by not using paper. The reality is that trees are a renewable resource (mills plant 7 trees for every tree they cut down and own the forests which are called tree farms).

    There is a difference between perception and reality. And the reality of the matter is that you cannot compare labor practices of one country to another. Despite what the perception seems like.
    02-11-12 11:17 AM
  19. blue-b's Avatar
    While I'm sure in general working conditions are no where near NA standards, but even in China there will be different degrees in regards to quality of standards. Apple is very demanding company, the result is what has been happening at foxcom. Saying, well everything is made in China, just makes a person feel better about thier purchases.

    I used to be a huge ifan, but in the last year I've have soured for various reasons, this being one. What they personafy in thier marketing material does not match the way they conduct business.
    02-11-12 11:34 AM
  20. xandermac's Avatar
    How about Apple's OWN audit....But don't worry, Apple made the managment take a seminar on how bad child labour is & also pay some $$ to the parents of the kids...BUT only to the parents of the kids they (Apple) found.
    Page 9 of the Apple supplier responsibility report.

    (see the last paragraphs for action taken when a supplier doesn't shape up, then show me what the rest of the industry is doing to help)

    2010 Findings and Corrective Actions

    In recent years, Chinese factories have increasingly turned to labor agencies and vocational schools to meet their workforce demands. We learned that some of these recruitment sources may provide false IDs that misrepresent young people’s ages, posing challenges for factory management.
    To address this difficult scenario, we intensified our search for underage labor in 2010, interviewing more workers and further scrutinizing recruiting practices, employment records, and worker IDs, especially where third-party labor agencies and schools were involved. Our audits of 127 facilities revealed ten Chinese factories that had hired workers under the age of 16 years, the minimum age for employment in China.
    Across nine of these facilities, a total of 49 workers were hired before reaching the legal age. Working with experts in the field, Apple conducted a complete analysis of the hiring systems at each factory. We found that all facilities had unsophisticated systems for age verification and ID checks. Apple has required the facilities to institute policies and procedures that will prevent employment of underage workers and to enforce them with third-party recruiters. To ensure effective implementation, we required managers to attend training and to follow up with one-on-one consulting. All facilities have cooperated fully with these measures.

    Of the ten facilities with underage labor violations, we found one that had hired a much larger number of underage workers, a total of 42. In addition, we determined that management had chosen to overlook the issue and was not committed to addressing the problem. Based on the poor likelihood of improvement, we terminated business with the facility.

    During our investigation, we also discovered that the vocational school involved in hiring the underage workers had falsified student IDs and threatened retaliation against students who revealed their ages during our audits. We reported the school to appropriate authorities in the Chinese government.


    Apple is actually taking steps and unless anyone has supporting evidence and not merely speculation they're the only tech company that is doing so.

    Cut though the hyperbole and show us all what YOUR tech company is doing?

    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Last edited by xandermac; 02-11-12 at 01:21 PM.
    sosumi11 likes this.
    02-11-12 11:40 AM
  21. i7guy's Avatar
    It's called "capitalism." Like it or not, it's what we have. Funny how this wasn't a problem until this week.



    Again, funny how this was never a problem until this week. If you don't like the laws, change them. I wish you luck; you'll need it.



    Their rate is 35% because that's the corporate tax rate, it's their "effective" rate which is somewhere below that, but I'll guarantee you it's higher than Mitt Romney's.
    We should get Warren Buffet on this immediately. I think he said he would volunteer to pay more tax to help out the government and our good citizens...but we digress.
    02-11-12 11:51 AM
  22. Economist101's Avatar
    This has always been a problem for me and always will be. If you like it then good for you. I work regularly to change it. I believe capitalism requires regulation because of greed. I have always railed against any and all companies that hide their money and don't pay their share. My comment wasn't specific to apple but they sure are one on the list...as is google who used NSF funds to get started and now hides their obligations.
    The "list" you mention would include every U.S. corporation with non-U.S. operations. They are ALL looking to reduce their tax liability, no matter how low it already is.
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    02-11-12 02:57 PM
  23. allsportsfan's Avatar
    I understand that all too well. But if all American companies decided to go offshore to produce, what's stopping them from offshoring all the design, R&D, engineering, marketing, etc. So people would be happy that those jobs were offshored in Apple companies living in countries where the wages and living conditions are not as high as North America?

    Its a debate
    02-11-12 04:27 PM
  24. xandermac's Avatar
    Why should they pay back to the country that provided the environment and opportunity for their success
    If you believe that the united states has created a friendly corporate manufacturing business environment you're kidding yourself. Manufacturing left the US for a reason and it wasn't just labor.

    Some leftist hippy organization recently estimated that it would only add about $30 (labor cost) to the cost of an iPhone to build them in the US. (which incidentally works out to about an addition $16.5 million per day in addition labor cost based on 49 odd million produced last quarter).

    What they forgot to add was investment in plants/equipment. Regulation, taxation, unions, benefits etc....

    Manufacturing isn't possible here unless you're a car maker with a taxpayer bailout fund at the ready.




    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Last edited by xandermac; 02-12-12 at 11:08 AM.
    02-12-12 10:57 AM
  25. grover5's Avatar
    Leftist hippy organization? Am I speaking to the ghost of Nixon? That is just too funny.
    02-12-12 11:03 AM
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