09-27-13 08:23 AM
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  1. sam_b77's Avatar
    Please cite the passage in his post where he proposed closing down a tech company. Maybe you saw something I didn't, because I certainly hope you didn't pull that out of thin air.

    To me, there's nothing wrong with reporting facts about Apple, RIM, or anyone else. Butit's a little more complicated then that. For example, if you write "Apple is the source of all evil in the universe, is 100% responsible for Chinese labor issues (a poster made this very statement yesterday), HIV in Africa and global warming, about 1/3rd of the commenters would respond with some version of "Right on, I knew Steve Jobs was the devil." You'll also say its okay because, you know, it's a BlackBerry forum. But, if you write something like "the PlayBook's price was cut because people weren't buying," you're suddenly "bashing RIM," even though that statement is absolutely factual without a trace of opinion. So I encourage the reporting of facts, but you have to be consistent in how you treat the reporters.
    Please point out in my post where I have said that Apple is respinsible for HIV, global warming etc?

    So you are free to make your own assumptions about someone else but others are not allowed to see what another poster is implying by his blind fanboi outlook? You are a beacon for equal opportunities.
    02-10-12 01:23 PM
  2. sam_b77's Avatar
    It deflects negative attention away from RIM, so there is that. They need a little break.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    In the same way that BB bashing deflects all talk about the iPhone being a toy and props it as the magical device it surely isn't.
    02-10-12 01:25 PM
  3. xandermac's Avatar
    In the same way that BB bashing deflects all talk about the iPhone being a toy and props it as the magical device it surely isn't.
    Well, I suppose but it's the media bashing the blackberry and blackberry users bashing the iPhone. Not sure which stings the most.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    02-10-12 01:28 PM
  4. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Would you people please knock it off!

    It is possible to discuss the topic, without discussing the members posting on it.
    02-10-12 01:30 PM
  5. Economist101's Avatar
    Please point out in my post where I have said that Apple is respinsible for HIV, global warming etc?

    So you are free to make your own assumptions about someone else but others are not allowed to see what another poster is implying by his blind fanboi outlook? You are a beacon for equal opportunities.
    Not at all. Only the first line was about you as a commenter (where I asked for the cite you didn't provide). In the paragraph, the "you" didn't refer to you specifically, but were general comments about what I've observed on the site. Again, I limit myself to exactly what you post. I'm going to edit the paragraph, though, so that it's more clear.
    Last edited by Economist101; 02-10-12 at 01:35 PM.
    02-10-12 01:32 PM
  6. Foreverup's Avatar
    Please cite the passage in his post where he proposed closing down a tech company. Maybe you saw something I didn't, because I certainly hope you didn't pull that out of thin air.

    To me, there's nothing wrong with reporting facts about Apple, RIM, or anyone else. Butit's a little more complicated then that. For example, if you write "Apple is the source of all evil in the universe, is 100% responsible for Chinese labor issues (a poster made this very statement yesterday), HIV in Africa and global warming, about 1/3rd of the commenters would respond with some version of "Right on, I knew Steve Jobs was the devil." You'll also say its okay because, you know, it's a BlackBerry forum. But, if you write something like "the PlayBook's price was cut because people weren't buying," you're suddenly "bashing RIM," even though that statement is absolutely factual without a trace of opinion. So I encourage the reporting of facts, but you have to be consistent in how you treat the reporters.

    Well in your opinion is the reports about Foxconn true or not? Seems like this whole thread everyone is either saying it is OK for workers to be treated that way, or there are other companies just not Apple complain about them all everyone wants to do is bash Apple.

    The simple question is are workers mistreated and as a consumer will it change your purchasing habits? If they are mistreated than Apple has a part in that.
    Last edited by Foreverup; 02-10-12 at 01:36 PM.
    mikelcal likes this.
    02-10-12 01:34 PM
  7. xandermac's Avatar
    Well in your opinion is the reports about Foxconn true or not? Seems like this whole thread everyone is either saying it is OK for workers to be treated that way, or there are other companies just not Apple complain about them all everyone wants to do is bash Apple.

    The simple question is are workers mistreated and as a consumer will it change your purchasing habits? If they are mistreated than Apple has a part in that.
    Won't change my purchasing habits in the least. Everything is made in china these days.

    Apple provide transparency that others don't and they don't use conflict minerals nor allow their supply chain to use them. They audit their supply chain and they allow third parties to audit their supply chain.

    4 deaths out of 1.2 million workers. A suicide rate 10x lower than the national average. Above average wages.

    I'm good with my decisions.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Last edited by xandermac; 02-10-12 at 01:55 PM.
    02-10-12 01:41 PM
  8. Economist101's Avatar
    Well in your opinion is the reports about Foxconn true or not? Seems like this whole thread everyone is either saying it is OK for workers to be treated that way, or there are other companies just not Apple complain about them all everyone wants to do is bash Apple.

    The simple question is are workers mistreated and as a consumer will it change your purchasing habits? If they are mistreated than Apple has a part in that.
    Of course the reports about Foxconn are true. But what's also true is that Foxconn has many clients, that conditions at Foxconn are better than many other parts of China (Foxconn workers less likely to commit suicide than other Chinese, for example), and that labor issues in China are as old as China itself (I have it on good authoritythat Foxconn didn't build the Great Wall). It's also true that if people spent as much energy looking for a solution as they do attempting to fix blame, maybe something would get done.

    As for my purchasing habits, they won't change. I'll continue to favor the products that work best for me and avoid the ones who don't. I believe the people of China can take care of themselves, and when they've decided they've had enough of their government, they'll change it.
    02-10-12 01:45 PM
  9. sam_b77's Avatar
    . I believe the people of China can take care of themselves, and when they've decided they've had enough of their government, they'll change it.
    True words. That's where this thread should be laid to rest.
    02-10-12 01:51 PM
  10. Foreverup's Avatar
    Won't change my purchasing habits in the least. Everything is made in china these days.

    Apple provide transparency that others don't and they don't use conflict minerals nor allow their supply chain to use them.

    4 deaths out of 1.2 million workers. A suicide rate 10x lower than the national average. Above average wages.

    I'm good with my decisions.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Of course the reports about Foxconn are true. But what's also true is that Foxconn has many clients, that conditions at Foxconn are better than many other parts of China (Foxconn workers less likely to commit suicide than other Chinese, for example), and that labor issues in China are as old as China itself (I have it on good authoritythat Foxconn didn't build the Great Wall). It's also true that if people spent as much energy looking for a solution as they do attempting to fix blame, maybe something would get done.

    As for my purchasing habits, they won't change. I'll continue to favor the products that work best for me and avoid the ones who don't. I believe the people of China can take care of themselves, and when they've decided they've had enough of their government, they'll change it.
    Well there that was easy.

    I'm still not going to buy an apple product but it has nothing to do with chinese workers.

    Also, in full disclosure, there are also way better companies than foxconn in china. They are certainly not a company someone should be holding up as an example as a good chinese company. I visit around 40 companies there and lot of them have better working conditions in far harsher industries than electronics.
    02-10-12 01:54 PM
  11. Foreverup's Avatar
    True words. That's where this thread should be laid to rest.

    Couldn't agree more
    02-10-12 01:55 PM
  12. kbz1960's Avatar
    Won't change my purchasing habits in the least. Everything is made in china these days.

    Apple provide transparency that others don't and they don't use conflict minerals nor allow their supply chain to use them. They audit their supply chain and they allow third parties to audit their supply chain.

    4 deaths out of 1.2 million workers. A suicide rate 10x lower than the national average. Above average wages.

    I'm good with my decisions.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    We know this how? Because they say so?
    02-10-12 02:02 PM
  13. dandbj13's Avatar
    The simple question is are workers mistreated and as a consumer will it change your purchasing habits?
    Let me ask you a question. How long have workers been mistreated in China. The moment you learned of this mistreatment, did that change your purchasing habits?

    One more bonus question: Do you only purchase products that were mined, produced, and assembled by the highest Western standards? If not, why not? Do you condone such behavior?

    I'll answer some of that. Some of my favorite products were made in China in factories a whole lot worse than Foxconn. Many people have worked for slave wages to give me the products I enjoy. I am already planning my next major purchase which is going to be more of the same. China is a heck pit, and has been for a long time.

    My political view is that China, and most of asia should be isolated from the rest of the civilized world until they are forced to adopt more humane values. I think no company should do business there.

    I didn't win the hegemony.

    Let me be even more clear. If I have the choice of buying everything made in America but had to pay more for the privilege, I wouldn't do it. Finally, I believe it is silly and naive to demand one company unilaterally play a different game and let its opponents take advantage of the newly available slave labor.
    Last edited by BigBadWulf; 02-10-12 at 03:08 PM. Reason: Hate me, yet? Seen a mirror lately?
    02-10-12 02:03 PM
  14. hootyhoo's Avatar
    I believe the people of China can take care of themselves, and when they've decided they've had enough of their government, they'll change it.
    But it makes some people feel better to think that others are not as smart or capable as they are and those people cannot effect change on their own.
    02-10-12 02:06 PM
  15. xandermac's Avatar
    We know this how? Because they say so?
    This has gotten ridiculous. Facts don't seem to matter. Just hype.

    http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/201...-suicides.html


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    02-10-12 02:12 PM
  16. sam_b77's Avatar
    Let me ask you a question. How long have workers been mistreated in China. The moment you learned of this mistreatment, did that change your purchasing habits?

    One more bonus question: Do you only purchase products that were mined, produced, and assembled by the highest Western standards? If not, why not? Do you condone such behavior?

    I'll answer some of that. Some of my favorite products were made in China in factories a whole lot worse than Foxconn. Many people have worked for slave wages to give me the products I enjoy. I am already planning my next major purchase which is going to be more of the same. China is a heck pit, and has been for a long time.

    My political view is that China, and most of asia should be isolated from the rest of the civilized world until they are forced to adopt more humane values. I think no company should do business there.


    I didn't win the hegemony.

    Let me be even more clear. If I have the choice of buying everything made in America but had to pay more for the privilege, I wouldn't do it. Finally, I believe it is silly and naive to demand one company unilaterally play a different game and let its opponents take advantage of the newly available slave labor.
    That's a wonderful political view but the thing of it is that neither you nor the entire western world combined has the power or the money to isolate Asia. The World has changed you know. Its 2012 not 1912.
    02-10-12 02:39 PM
  17. i7guy's Avatar
    Let me ask you a question. How long have workers been mistreated in China. The moment you learned of this mistreatment, did that change your purchasing habits?

    One more bonus question: Do you only purchase products that were mined, produced, and assembled by the highest Western standards? If not, why not? Do you condone such behavior?

    I'll answer some of that. Some of my favorite products were made in China in factories a whole lot worse than Foxconn. Many people have worked for slave wages to give me the products I enjoy. I am already planning my next major purchase which is going to be more of the same. China is a heck pit, and has been for a long time.

    My political view is that China, and most of asia should be isolated from the rest of the civilized world until they are forced to adopt more humane values. I think no company should do business there.

    I didn't win the hegemony.

    Let me be even more clear. If I have the choice of buying everything made in America but had to pay more for the privilege, I wouldn't do it. Finally, I believe it is silly and naive to demand one company unilaterally play a different game and let its opponents take advantage of the newly available slave labor.
    This is not new news about apple and the factories. They got caught with their pants down. One of dealing with it is to say, all companies are guilty of this type of thing therefore apple is nothing special. The other way is apple themselves should force some change since they are a major player.
    02-10-12 02:46 PM
  18. xandermac's Avatar
    This is not new news about apple and the factories. They got caught with their pants down. One of dealing with it is to say, all companies are guilty of this type of thing therefore apple is nothing special. The other way is apple themselves should force some change since they are a major player.
    Yep. That's the only two ways. No one should take a look at themselves, their choices, their manufacturer of choice. It'll go away if we blame everyone else.

    Or we could expect better of all companies, demand some transparency and responsibility.

    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    02-10-12 03:18 PM
  19. Draconianfire83's Avatar
    It's no wonder Apple's profit margins are SO massive... look at their labor force... and how much they are paid... then look at how much they charge for devices. Duh. I know capitalism is the thing... sure, but I stand by that outsourcing is what killed the American economy.

    Off my soapbox... continue your conversation
    02-10-12 04:51 PM
  20. gwanstarr's Avatar
    I have a tough time taking Bloomberg which is a Financial paper to have a balanced reporting. Honest, when I read this it reads like it was written by Apples PR department. This is article versus the NYT article a couple of weeks back are like night and day. I have an easier time believing the in depth NYT article than the one coming from a company with vested interests in Apples success - Bloomberg which is owned partially by Merrill Lynch means they are heavily invested in rotten Apples.
    This has gotten ridiculous. Facts don't seem to matter. Just hype.

    Apple Opens Suppliers


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    02-10-12 05:03 PM
  21. allsportsfan's Avatar
    I agree. IMHO Apple is getting all the bad press right now because they're the big fish which literally does control Foxxconn in a way. Apple can apply pressure to get better gross margins from their suppliers because it is literally millions of dollar of business that can't be easily replaced. Apple has the stick and they use it, Foxxconn wields under the pressure. It's common over in Asia for the bigger companies in their respective industries to do this. Over here it's called profits for investors.

    Other companies like RIM don't have the stick so to speak to apply the pressure so they don't get the same prices as a company like Apple.

    The big thing that Americans should be upset about is the amount of foreign profits and cash that Apple has and they have no plans of either giving a dividend or paying income taxes in the USA. That is a huge difference compared to many US companies.
    02-10-12 07:48 PM
  22. palmless's Avatar
    The big thing that Americans should be upset about is the amount of foreign profits and cash that Apple has and they have no plans of either giving a dividend or paying income taxes in the USA. That is a huge difference compared to many US companies.
    Why should Americans be upset that profits and cash earned elsewhere are not taxed here unless repatriated? It's bad tax policy, if Americans get upset they should allow repatriation of profits and unlock all that overseas cash when it comes rushing to the US.
    02-10-12 08:21 PM
  23. murnende's Avatar
    Does anyone talking about this and on their high horse doing anything or just posting your opinion on forums?

    If you are doing nothing then stop these threads.
    I've always wondered about the mentality that screams: "If you're not willing to travel to China and storm the gates at Foxconn, you're not allowed to post your opinion!!" People are allowed opinions, and are allowed to express those opinions, regardless of whether they're hypocritical. Furthermore, just because they haven't 'taken action,' whatever that may mean, doesn't make them hypocrites.

    Exchanging of information and debate is the root of action, be glad you live in a nation that allows you to discuss issues freely, and stop trying to censor your peers.
    02-10-12 10:24 PM
  24. Mr.Willie's Avatar
    So child labor is acceptable in factories as long as you come out ahead in the end? Thank God no protest against that!

    Damn Internet
    China has anti child labor laws. Apple has already used their influence to get Foxconn to obey those laws.

    <Snip>
    The big thing that Americans should be upset about is the amount of foreign profits and cash that Apple has and they have no plans of either giving a dividend or paying income taxes in the USA. That is a huge difference compared to many US companies.
    Yes it is a huge difference to many US companies. Companies like Cisco that moved their operations to Ireland to save many millions of dollars in taxes. (Oh, and 5,000 US jobs went to Ireland). Or companies like Weatherford, that have an empty office in some European country to get tax breaks. Why should an overseas subsidy pay the outrageous US taxes on money not made in the US ? Time to revamp the tax code and spend less money.

    Edit: Revamp tax code= lower taxes for US corporations. Especially those that use their tax savings to hire more people and/or lower cost for goods and services.
    Last edited by Mr.Willie; 02-11-12 at 12:17 AM.
    02-11-12 12:13 AM
  25. mikelcal's Avatar
    Does anyone talking about this and on their high horse doing anything or just posting your opinion on forums?

    If you are doing nothing then stop these threads.

    Do you know of anything made that does not contain parts made in China?

    Apple certainly isn't the only one but they are the most high profile one that makes profits up the rear. RIM certainly isn't the only one to use parts from China and labeled made elsewhere.

    Where do iproducts say they are made? Do you see made in China on them?
    Well, that is one of the reasons I started this thread. I'm sure iPhone users that love their products don't give a crap where or how they are made as long as they work. I'm assuming the same might be true about blackberry users. I love my playbook and regardless of where it is made, I'm firstly concerned whether it works. And as much as I'd like to say "ha-ha" to Apple, I thought it would be fair to make sure that RIM is not involved in the same practices.

    As far as where iProducts say they are made, its usually on the back under the apple logo. On laptops its on the back on the top lip. it reads something like "Designed in California, Assembled in China"
    02-11-12 12:21 AM
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