09-27-13 07:23 AM
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  1. palmless's Avatar
    Palmless made the ridiculous statement of thank god no internet during the American industrial revolution so no mass protest could stop it.

    Child labor was employed at that time. An actual practice in my hometown of Pittsburgh
    You might want to look at the political motivations behind the so-called "Anti-Child Labor" movement.

    To be brief, it was not about protecting children.

    It is very naive to view China's industrialization as anything but a VERY positive thing.
    02-10-12 09:14 AM
  2. Foreverup's Avatar
    You might want to look at the political motivations behind the so-called "Anti-Child Labor" movement.

    To be brief, it was not about protecting children.

    It is very naive to view China's industrialization as anything but a VERY positive thing.
    Who said it wasn't? increased industrialization will forge more power to the workers that will help them claim better working conditions and better wages. Which is happening.

    I just thought your supporting argument was horrible. And to say someone shouldn't care about and try and change it is just plain wrong.
    02-10-12 09:18 AM
  3. xandermac's Avatar
    Nothing like working in that coal mine at 12 years old. Those damn kids had free ride for 11 years, right.
    LOL. Obviously, it wasn't that bad. My Father owned an Engineering company. I worked in the plant maintenance division, installing/servicing equipment in A.R.C quarries. Hardly glamorous but had to start somewhere. All OSHA rules were strictly followed, my supervision was excellent and I got a huge advantage for college. A.R.C actually paid for my engineering degree.

    Similar to coal mining though, you were close.

    FYI. A.R.C was one of my Fathers largest contracts, not his company. So the experience worked out even better.


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    Last edited by xandermac; 02-10-12 at 09:26 AM.
    02-10-12 09:22 AM
  4. brucep1's Avatar
    LOL. Obviously, it wasn't that bad. My Father owned an Engineering company. I worked in the plant maintenance division, installing/servicing equipment in A.R.C quarries. Hardly glamorous but had to start somewhere. All OSHA rules were strictly followed, my supervision was excellent and I got a huge advantage for college. A.R.C actually paid for my engineering degree.

    Similar to coal mining though, you were close.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    This picture basically sums up my conversation with engineers.
    02-10-12 09:26 AM
  5. palmless's Avatar
    Who said it wasn't? increased industrialization will forge more power to the workers that will help them claim better working conditions and better wages. Which is happening.

    I just thought your supporting argument was horrible. And to say someone shouldn't care about and try and change it is just plain wrong.
    The Foxconn working conditions are inarguably better than the working conditions available to those same workers in that same region with those same skills. Their lives are IMPROVED because Foxconn jobs are available.

    The Foxconn rate of pay is inarguably higher than the rate of pay available to those same workers in that same region with those same skills. Their lives are IMPROVED because Foxconn jobs are available.

    It isn't that the industrialization will "forge more power" to the workers. The workers will become more educate and skilled, the infrastructure will improve, and their labor will be WORTH MORE.

    I am sincere in pointing out the obvious... if we had folks arguing against buying from New England sweatshops, we'd have spent a greater period of time in a pre-Industrial era. Our suffering would be prolonged, just as the Chinese worker's suffering will be prolonged if we succeed in "helping" them.

    If I'm an insurance claims adjuster in Missouri, the Foxconn working conditions are nightmarish. If I'm digging beets in China, the Foxconn working conditions look like a vacation, and that worker would weep that we are trying to thwart that employment.
    02-10-12 09:27 AM
  6. AfroLoGeek's Avatar
    RIM has some parts/components made in China. Everyone does....but

    Apple has been using Foxconn for quite a while and "Analysts estimate that Apple will be roughly 40 percent of Foxconns revenue in 2012." (CNET)

    Apple is a MAJOR Foxconn client. Foxconn is the largest private employer in Mainland China. Foxconn is based in Taiwan.

    RIM doesn't have a lot going-on with Foxconn. If I'm getting the right internet info they have other suppliers like Elcoteq, Celestica, Flextronics...and I think RIM owns a factory in Malaysia

    So yes...those iProducts are being made in questionable working conditions...

    Ex. Foxconn is criticized for putting nets around factory dorms to 'catch people attempting suicide'

    and recently Foxconn Boss compares His Workforce to Animals and what Apple said about?...nothing.
    Okay,these guys are not philanthropic ones, but please even not a dime of humanity?
    02-10-12 09:33 AM
  7. Foreverup's Avatar
    The Foxconn working conditions are inarguably better than the working conditions available to those same workers in that same region with those same skills. Their lives are IMPROVED because Foxconn jobs are available.

    The Foxconn rate of pay is inarguably higher than the rate of pay available to those same workers in that same region with those same skills. Their lives are IMPROVED because Foxconn jobs are available.

    It isn't that the industrialization will "forge more power" to the workers. The workers will become more educate and skilled, the infrastructure will improve, and their labor will be WORTH MORE.

    I am sincere in pointing out the obvious... if we had folks arguing against buying from New England sweatshops, we'd have spent a greater period of time in a pre-Industrial era. Our suffering would be prolonged, just as the Chinese worker's suffering will be prolonged if we succeed in "helping" them.

    If I'm an insurance claims adjuster in Missouri, the Foxconn working conditions are nightmarish. If I'm digging beets in China, the Foxconn working conditions look like a vacation, and that worker would weep that we are trying to thwart that employment.
    You forgot to add as their labor is worth more and they demand equal pay. They will be crushed by the powers that be. If history follows the same path. Foxconn or the Chinese government are not just going to say one day OK we will improve everything and here is more money.
    02-10-12 09:34 AM
  8. gwanstarr's Avatar
    I think it's funny how the defense is
    "Heck, check the clothes your wearing there are far worst conditions employed than who made your phone."
    and
    "But again, it's not just Apple, as was said in the post above. If you explored just about every tech company, in some step of the manufacturing process China is involved"
    Seems it's to justify and make you feel better about the products you buy and own that you KNOW have come at a measured human cost.

    I think the point when talking about Apple products and how they are manufactured is that they have the money and power to make serious change. Rather Apple uses their money and power to place immense pressure on their manufacturers and suppliers which only makes the problem worse by causing the manufacturers and suppliers to cut corners and cost which eventually trickles down to the workers (less pay, harsh conditions, more hours and so on). Apple is the most powerful company in the world now, heck, their valuation is greater than Sweden's GDP! Apple deserves to have their feet held to the fire and be put under the microscope because they are one of the worst known offenders and have the resources and might to make the change but they choose not to. If Apple made the change, I believe it would cause more companies to follow suit in change.

    This is one reason I will not buy Apple products because it has been well documented and I know how their products are manufactured and they have blood on them. This is also why I will not shop at Walmart because they use the same tactics that Apple is using of bullying and placing huge pressures on manufacturers and suppliers (Walmart probably invented the practice)

    Fact is it's near impossible to get away from products that are manufactured from China whether direct or indirect which means we all unfortunately support the economic slave trade. But when the spot light has put the issue center stage and you choose to look the other way, you are now directly part of the problem.
    02-10-12 09:36 AM
  9. xandermac's Avatar
    This picture basically sums up my conversation with engineers.
    LOL. Trust me, I'm sorry for that. But sometimes that is the case. Thankfully I was educated in England so I know my place. To paraphrase Sheldon. "Engineering, where the oompah loompahs of science make their doodads.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    02-10-12 09:37 AM
  10. palmless's Avatar
    You forgot to add as their labor is worth more and they demand equal pay. They will be crushed by the powers that be. If history follows the same path. Foxconn or the Chinese government are not just going to say one day OK we will improve everything and here is more money.
    So, it's futile?

    In which case, give up and leave them in the beet fields rather than improving their lives with a factory job?

    We can't really use this forum to effectively debate the relative oppression of the Chinese government versus other governments. I would love to, but trust me, it would go downhill rapidly.

    We can look at other markets, and see how industrialization helped the US, Western Europe, Japan, Indonesia, etc., etc., etc. and see that there are steps along the path as the value labor can provide increases. Why deny those steps to the Chinese worker?
    02-10-12 09:40 AM
  11. xandermac's Avatar
    I love that when it's Apple in the spotlight, it's fair and balanced. When it's RIM it's media bias. Strange how that works.


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    kevinnugent likes this.
    02-10-12 09:57 AM
  12. sam_b77's Avatar
    Again, I am SO THANKFUL the internet did not exist hundreds of years ago.

    Reactionary Europeans would have boycotted the horrible conditions in New England factories, we'd have never industrialized, and we'd still be walking behind a mule.

    I am sure the Foxconn employees would literally weep if they knew that we are lobbying to increase the price of production in China, which would mean that fewer of them can pull themselves out of the agrarian subsistence economy by industrializing.

    It is as if we are using our position on the ladder merely to stomp on the fingers of those attempting to climb up.
    http://forums.crackberry.com/general...ml#post7100476
    Scroll down to post #17 by me. You might agree with it.
    02-10-12 09:58 AM
  13. palmless's Avatar
    http://forums.crackberry.com/general...ml#post7100476
    Scroll down to post #17 by me. You might agree with it.
    Well, you are spot on of course. But your facts do nothing to offset the "Tsk tsk"ing that makes folks FEEL like they are doing something.

    "By insisting on these reforms you assuage your guilt on the conditions of the poor but forget that you have removed the means for him/her to eat food in the evening.

    It has taken almost 200 yrs for the labor conditions to improve in USA and UK etc. We can't do it in 20. In the meantime let the unfortunates at least get two meals a day."


    There is no argument to overcome your testimony. You're facing a variation of the "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" fallacy (not the government this time, more of "I'm from Missouri and I'm here to help").

    We LIKE sending food to Africa, for example, and we ignore the fact that it is appropriated by the government and serves mainly to depress the cost of food, and therefore the value of farming, and therefore the ability of the African farmer to make a living. So what. It makes us feel good. We fed Africa, and who really cares if they are hungrier as a result?

    We LIKE buying a "Mexican Made" Blackberry with 99% of it's content sourced from the shadows of the Chinese manufacturing market while hammering Apple for accurately labeling their device and dealing with the largest, most legitimate portion of that market which is always in the spotlight.

    So you can give accurate first hand testimony, and cite relevant history, and document your facts. Can't trump feelings, and darn it... it feels GOOD to help those Chinese workers, even if it doesn't feel so good to them.
    02-10-12 10:09 AM
  14. sam_b77's Avatar
    Well, you are spot on of course. But your facts do nothing to offset the "Tsk tsk"ing that makes folks FEEL like they are doing something.

    "By insisting on these reforms you assuage your guilt on the conditions of the poor but forget that you have removed the means for him/her to eat food in the evening.

    It has taken almost 200 yrs for the labor conditions to improve in USA and UK etc. We can't do it in 20. In the meantime let the unfortunates at least get two meals a day."


    There is no argument to overcome your testimony. You're facing a variation of the "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" fallacy (not the government this time, more of "I'm from Missouri and I'm here to help").

    We LIKE sending food to Africa, for example, and we ignore the fact that it is appropriated by the government and serves mainly to depress the cost of food, and therefore the value of farming, and therefore the ability of the African farmer to make a living. So what. It makes us feel good. We fed Africa, and who really cares if they are hungrier as a result?

    We LIKE buying a "Mexican Made" Blackberry with 99% of it's content sourced from the shadows of the Chinese manufacturing market while hammering Apple for accurately labeling their device and dealing with the largest, most legitimate portion of that market which is always in the spotlight.

    So you can give accurate first hand testimony, and cite relevant history, and document your facts. Can't trump feelings, and darn it... it feels GOOD to help those Chinese workers, even if it doesn't feel so good to them.
    Seems like both of us are not the bleeding heart liberals . Thing is emotions don't work to uplift the society. Cold hard decisions and policies, even though they might hurt in the short term are the only way out of the cycle of poverty and misery.

    Goes to show that we can disagree on BB and iPhones but still have a lot in common.
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    02-10-12 10:14 AM
  15. palmless's Avatar
    Seems like both of us are not the bleeding heart liberals . Thing is emotions don't work to uplift the society. Cold hard decisions and policies, even though they might hurt in the short term are the only way out of the cycle of poverty and misery.

    Goes to show that we can disagree on BB and iPhones but still have a lot in common.
    INDEED.

    It's easy to tell who is who. Just ask them to fill in the blanks:

    "If we make the best decision for the ____ term, we'll be OK in the ____ term".

    Lots of short-term focus on "helping" the Chinese worker, and little concern about the obvious long-term result.
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    02-10-12 10:30 AM
  16. gwanstarr's Avatar
    What is the obvious benefit of exploiting the Chinese worker other than our own short term gain? I didn't know there was some long term plan involved in exploitation of people.

    I guess that's what the US had in mind when they prospered economically of the sweat and blood of slaves for 400 years? -- So based of this logic of short term pain for long term gain, those African slaves really didn't know any better that they were actually helping them for the good of their future....


    INDEED.

    It's easy to tell who is who. Just ask them to fill in the blanks:

    "If we make the best decision for the ____ term, we'll be OK in the ____ term".

    Lots of short-term focus on "helping" the Chinese worker, and little concern about the obvious long-term result.
    grover5 likes this.
    02-10-12 10:55 AM
  17. Foreverup's Avatar
    What is the obvious benefit of exploiting the Chinese worker other than our own short term gain? I didn't know there was some long term plan involved in exploitation of people.

    I guess that's what the US had in mind when they prospered economically of the sweat and blood of slaves for 400 years? -- So based of this logic of short term pain for long term gain, those African slaves really didn't know any better that they were actually helping them for the good of their future....
    Cheaper Iphones and a sense of worth instead of having to pick beets all day. Haven't you been reading Palmless
    grover5 likes this.
    02-10-12 11:03 AM
  18. xandermac's Avatar
    It's so nice to see everyone has a conscience now. Shame it only occurred recently. Nothing prior to that, that I can find.


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    02-10-12 11:10 AM
  19. sam_b77's Avatar
    What is the obvious benefit of exploiting the Chinese worker other than our own short term gain? I didn't know there was some long term plan involved in exploitation of people.

    I guess that's what the US had in mind when they prospered economically of the sweat and blood of slaves for 400 years? -- So based of this logic of short term pain for long term gain, those African slaves really didn't know any better that they were actually helping them for the good of their future....
    You might see it as exploitation but the workers who had no hope hope see it as an opportunity. I'm not defending Foxconn here. They are what they are. But look at the overall picture. Foxconn is obviously employing a large number of employable workers. The workers choose to work there because they can't earn as much in their traditional rural activities as working in Foxconn.

    The immediate result of Foxconn employing so many is that labor wages would go up as any other company who wishes to employ in large numbers would have to compete (yes Compete) for the labor. They would have to pay more and provide better conditions to get good workers away from joining Foxconn. So there's one benefit right there.

    There are a lot more factories in China than just Foxconn. As the economy grows so would the options for the workers and a point will come when Foxconn themselves will have to compete for labor and provide better conditions.

    Now lets take the other case. Apple and other companies insist on massive labor reforms at Foxconn. Foxconn prices rise and couple that with Obama's stated intent on giving tax breaks to companies that bring manufacturing back to US, you have a scenario where Foxconn's manufacturing contracts and they layoff a huge trained workforce. Now there will be a surplus of labor competing for jobs and wages would drop. So it doesn't help the worker in the long run. This is why the Chinese govt is resisting Western Pressure. China govt doesnt like bad press you know.

    I would be happy if US and other Countries would setup a worker ethic code for imported products. I'm an employer in India and I have to compete with garment exporters for workers. The garment exporters pay the highest wages to unskilled labor and that makes life difficult for me as that is the baseline for any unskilled/untrained worker which also increase the wages of skilled workers.

    If your countries do what you want, I would be happy (when I have my business hat on). The garment exporter will lay off workers and I will be able to hire people for less. And since I cater to the Indian market,.American policies really don't bother me one bit.

    Don't think for a minute that I would pay the worker a penny more than what the market offers them. And their wage price would drop significantly of the Exporters were to layoff a lot of workers due to American sentiments.

    So let it be. The market controls will bring things to an equalization level eventually. If you force the hand of the market, you will cause far more misery than good.
    02-10-12 11:17 AM
  20. dandbj13's Avatar
    Guys, we can have a lot more fun with these labor threads if we are just a little more honest about what we're doing. This is not about concern for the Chinese worker. The Chinese have been working in horrid conditions since before there was a USA. Yes, that's before Apple. Nobody cares. Sorry to be so harsh and honest, but that's the upshot of it. You would have all tossed your slave labor products a long time ago and demanded change from the places you shop.

    None of that has happened, nor is it happening. This is about one thing only. This is about Apple kicking the living ___ out of the industry in every conceivable way. This is about seeing stories of companies publicly walking away from RIM and towards Apple. This is about RIMM in the toilet while Apple is up $20 in two days. This is about if you can't beat em in the market, then assassinate their character.

    Everyone of you is posting from a machine most likely made in Foxconn and certainly sourced in China. You are seething with jealousy over Apple's $100M in the bank. You are openly praying for a major security breech to hit iOS. You are actively participating in rhetoric you hope will hurt Apple's stock price. The Chinese worker is just another fruit in your bowl of sour grapes that helps you spew venom against Apple.

    Once we are honest about all that, we can call these threads what they really are: "I hate Apple so much, I could spit!" For anyone who does have a greater concern, please post the results of your honest efforts to affect change. Tell me about the letters to manufacturers, you know, the ones who have been exploiting a lot longer than Apple. Tell us about the tears you shed over conflict minerals, you know, the stuff over which real death is dealt at unthinkable levels. Tell us about the products you got rid of due to conscience, not hate. I would love to hear about it.

    Till then, let's just stop pretending these threads have anything to do with the commonwealth of the Chinese worker. That brand of hypocrisy is almost as bad as more direct types of exploitation. Let's merge all these threads. Let's call them, "Why I hate Apple". And leave the Chinese out of it.
    02-10-12 11:31 AM
  21. kbz1960's Avatar
    ^^^^^ Fun???? Fun????? Says a lot.
    02-10-12 11:43 AM
  22. sam_b77's Avatar
    Guys, we can have a lot more fun with these labor threads if we are just a little more honest about what we're doing. This is not about concern for the Chinese worker. The Chinese have been working in horrid conditions since before there was a USA. Yes, that's before Apple. Nobody cares. Sorry to be so harsh and honest, but that's the upshot of it. You would have all tossed your slave labor products a long time ago and demanded change from the places you shop.

    None of that has happened, nor is it happening. This is about one thing only. This is about Apple kicking the living ___ out of the industry in every conceivable way. This is about seeing stories of companies publicly walking away from RIM and towards Apple. This is about RIMM in the toilet while Apple is up $20 in two days. This is about if you can't beat em in the market, then assassinate their character.

    Everyone of you is posting from a machine most likely made in Foxconn and certainly sourced in China. You are seething with jealousy over Apple's $100M in the bank. You are openly praying for a major security breech to hit iOS. You are actively participating in rhetoric you hope will hurt Apple's stock price. The Chinese worker is just another fruit in your bowl of sour grapes that helps you spew venom against Apple.

    Once we are honest about all that, we can call these threads what they really are: "I hate Apple so much, I could spit!" For anyone who does have a greater concern, please post the results of your honest efforts to affect change. Tell me about the letters to manufacturers, you know, the ones who have been exploiting a lot longer than Apple. Tell us about the tears you shed over conflict minerals, you know, the stuff over which real death is dealt at unthinkable levels. Tell us about the products you got rid of due to conscience, not hate. I would love to hear about it.

    Till then, let's just stop pretending these threads have anything to do with the commonwealth of the Chinese worker. That brand of hypocrisy is almost as bad as more direct types of exploitation. Let's merge all these threads. Let's call them, "Why I hate Apple". And leave the Chinese out of it.
    You are right about the harsh truth. And I also agree with you on news reports focussing on Apple because they have become a beacon for the Chinese workers' conditions simply because Apple is so successful.

    However you wanting to close this thread down or changing the title to "We Hate Apple" is the as every one of your posts being an "I Hate RIM". You propose to close down every other tech company because you think everything else if now obsolete, without realising that while you might be satisfied with the iPHones, others might think its is a device which is missing a lot of features (which it does). Yet you find it OK to hate openly on RIM but want censorship on hating on Apple?? Were you a part of the Soviet Union?
    02-10-12 11:44 AM
  23. dandbj13's Avatar
    You are right about the harsh truth. And I also agree with you on news reports focussing on Apple because they have become a beacon for the Chinese workers' conditions simply because Apple is so successful.

    However you wanting to close this thread down or changing the title to "We Hate Apple" is the as every one of your posts being an "I Hate RIM". You propose to close down every other tech company because you think everything else if now obsolete, without realising that while you might be satisfied with the iPHones, others might think its is a device which is missing a lot of features (which it does). Yet you find it OK to hate openly on RIM but want censorship on hating on Apple?? Were you a part of the Soviet Union?
    No. I definitely don't want the thread close. In fact I'm quite happy with the thread. I'm just not happy with hypocrisy. So how about let's just talk about what we're really talking about wihout using the Chinese worker as some kind of pawn in sick little game.

    I appreciate your honesty. Thanks.
    02-10-12 12:13 PM
  24. Economist101's Avatar
    You propose to close down every other tech company because you think everything else if now obsolete, without realising that while you might be satisfied with the iPHones, others might think its is a device which is missing a lot of features (which it does). Yet you find it OK to hate openly on RIM but want censorship on hating on Apple?? Were you a part of the Soviet Union?
    Please cite the passage in his post where he proposed closing down a tech company. Maybe you saw something I didn't, because I certainly hope you didn't pull that out of thin air.

    To me, there's nothing wrong with reporting facts about Apple, RIM, or anyone else. Butit's a little more complicated then that. For example, if you (whereby "you" I mean "any commenter", and not you sam_b77 specifically) write "Apple is the source of all evil in the universe, is 100% responsible for Chinese labor issues (a poster made this very statement yesterday), HIV in Africa and global warming, about 1/3rd of the commenters would respond with some version of "Right on, I knew Steve Jobs was the devil." You'll also say its okay because, you know, it's a BlackBerry forum. But, if you (whereby "you" I mean "any commenter", and not you sam_b77 specifically, even though sam_b77 would never post something like this because it "bashes" RIM)write something like "the PlayBook's price was cut because people weren't buying," you're suddenly "bashing RIM," even though that statement is absolutely factual without a trace of opinion. So I encourage the reporting of facts, but you have to be consistent in how you treat the reporters.
    Last edited by Economist101; 02-10-12 at 12:35 PM. Reason: For clarity
    02-10-12 12:16 PM
  25. xandermac's Avatar
    It deflects negative attention away from RIM, so there is that. They need a little break.


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    02-10-12 12:17 PM
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