10-18-13 08:06 AM
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  1. DivideBYZero's Avatar
    Here's some evidential data for you fine fellows:

    But Totzke pointed out that the company still has 1 million government users and provides BlackBerry devices or services to 90 percent of Fortune 500 companies, including MetLife, ADP and Whirlpool. Executives on Wall Street said investment banks overwhelmingly go with BlackBerrys for company-issued phones

    Read more at: Companies drop BlackBerry as it tries to rebuild
    Nobody is denying they are under pressure in the business market, but to claim they are out of it is just falsehood.
    10-17-13 02:00 PM
  2. OniBerry's Avatar
    True, but you shouldn't just post things just to make an argument. It doesn't add much to the discussion.
    I believe it did add something to the discussion. I did forget this was cb.com though, and anecdotal evidence only becomes accepted when citing two family members exchanging their iPhones for Z30s (then it's a fact) C'mon Tbone. You have been a member here since March 2011. How was my pointing him in the right direction (before I even knew he sold MDM solutions) less constructive than your post about a school paper? I'm not here to school anyone, or would you rather believe that an employee of Airwatch the #1 MDM solution (Source Gartner May 2013) can't produce even anecdotal evidence of his position?
    10-17-13 02:15 PM
  3. DivideBYZero's Avatar
    I don't work for AirWatch.

    Posted from my RIM 850 wireless handheld
    10-17-13 02:32 PM
  4. qbnkelt's Avatar
    Here's some evidential data for you fine fellows:



    Nobody is denying they are under pressure in the business market, but to claim they are out of it is just falsehood.
    1). I don't recall anyone stating that Blackberry was out of the business market. The point being made was that iPhone and Android are *in* the business market that BlackBerry used to own.

    2). The very article you posted has made the case for those who are saying that BlackBerry has in fact given ground to other platforms. Which is exactly what has been pointed out, that those platforms are not attempting to creep in, but rather, have already more than arrived. BlackBerry is giving up ground to them.


    Sent from my beautiful white iPhone 5 on iOS7 using Tapatalk
    10-17-13 02:33 PM
  5. FFR's Avatar
    Here's some evidential data for you fine fellows:



    Nobody is denying they are under pressure in the business market, but to claim they are out of it is just falsehood.
    I remember posting the same thing in July.
    My post had a little more meat to it.

    Look at all the companies that have dropped blackberry over 2012/2013, even a fanboy can see it adds up:
    400,000 Government customers (out of 1.4 million) have dropped blackberry. (source at the end)

    Booze Allen Hamilton*: =25,000 (Byod)
    Home Depot: =10,000 (iPhones)
    Yahoo: =11,500
    Halliburton: =4500 (iPhones
    ICE: =17,600 (iPhone 5, $2.1million)
    NTSB: =400 (iphone 4s)
    ATF: =3,800 (3000 or 60% iphones 6/12)
    TSA:=$3 million (iPads and iPhones)
    DISA =162,500 (up to 8 million)
    NOAA: =3,000 (iPhones)
    Pentagon: =470,000 (600,000 total)

    *(Booz Allen advises the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force and Department of Homeland Security.)

    So what?
    19,000 Bes roll outs only 7,000 BB10 Devices reportedly being deployed this year.
    Pathetic

    Nato- None / 0
    Germany: 5,000 z10's
    Dutch Police: 30,000 (2014)
    LA Sherifs: ? (BB was so desperate they even issued a press release)
    The City of New York DOITT: 2,000
    and who else?

    The british government, perhaps?
    No
    "BlackBerry Deemed Not Secure Enough for British Government"


    BlackBerry Deemed Not Secure Enough for British Government

    Ouch!!!, I guess side loading isn't a great feature for all customers.

    Governments Customers using Blackberry:
    Nov. , 2012: 1.4 million
    July 2013: 1 million

    1.4 million Figure:NTSB drops 'unacceptable' BlackBerry for iPhone - Nov. 21, 2012
    1million Figure:
    "But Totzke pointed out that the company still has 1 million government users;"
    BlackBerry keeps losing customers as it tries to turn itself around - latimes.com



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
    OniBerry and richardat like this.
    10-17-13 02:41 PM
  6. TBone4eva's Avatar
    I believe it did add something to the discussion. I did forget this was cb.com though, and anecdotal evidence only becomes accepted when citing two family members exchanging their iPhones for Z30s (then it's a fact) C'mon Tbone. You have been a member here since March 2011. How was my pointing him in the right direction (before I even knew he sold MDM solutions) less constructive than your post about a school paper? I'm not here to school anyone, or would you rather believe that an employee of Airwatch the #1 MDM solution (Source Gartner May 2013) can't produce even anecdotal evidence of his position?
    You stated that you can't help it if we don't like the source. I was just pointing out why, atleast I believed, it was a poor source. I don't have an issue with anecdotal evidence as I conceded that point to qbnbelt (although she disagrees about it being anecdotal) that is there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that BB has lost significant marketshare in the corporate and government enterprise market. I just thought that was a poor source to move the discussion forward because it has no real context or comparisons. It looked like you just threw those numbers from Good out there to make your point.
    10-17-13 02:46 PM
  7. David Murray1's Avatar
    What's 'The Verge'? I've never read it. Sounds irrelevant.
    10-17-13 02:47 PM
  8. JasW's Avatar
    Here's some evidential data for you fine fellows:

    But Totzke pointed out that the company still has 1 million government users and provides BlackBerry devices or services to 90 percent of Fortune 500 companies, including MetLife, ADP and Whirlpool. Executives on Wall Street said investment banks overwhelmingly go with BlackBerrys for company-issued phones

    Read more at: Companies drop BlackBerry as it tries to rebuild
    Nobody is denying they are under pressure in the business market, but to claim they are out of it is just falsehood.
    What Totzke is pointing out doesn't mean that 90% of Fortune 500 companies are solid BlackBerry. It simply means that they still use BBs -- and I'd bet that an overwhelming majority are BYOD companies that have not adopted BES10, but merely still have a tiny minority of BBOS users on a legacy BES server.
    10-17-13 02:47 PM
  9. qbnkelt's Avatar
    The article, in its entirety

    Companies drop BlackBerry as it tries to rebuild
    Jul 30, 2013 by Andrea Chang
    For years, the BlackBerry was the smartphone of choice among professionals seeking ironclad security features and super-fast email.

    But its perch at the top of the corporate and government ladder, the cornerstone of its business and perhaps its last bastion, has begun to erode. And that's raising worries among investors and analysts that BlackBerry Ltd. may be running out of time.

    A slew of businesses and government agencies have abandoned BlackBerry phones in recent months, a troubling trend for a company that has been refocusing its attention on business users after watching consumers depart in droves.

    "Ultimately, we are skeptical that BlackBerry can penetrate the consumer market, and its remaining enterprise installed base is no longer large enough to drive unit sales" beyond August, Kevin Smithen, telecom analyst for investment firm Macquarie Group Ltd., wrote to investors. "We think the likely end game for BlackBerry is a breakup or liquidation at a lower price."

    BlackBerry's revival efforts are being thwarted by a double whammy of workplace changes: the rise of "bring your own device to work" policies, known as BYOD, and enterprise clients' internal decisions to drop BlackBerrys in favor of iPhones, Android devices and even Windows Phones.

    "BlackBerry management may have been underestimating the problem for quite some time," said Scott Thompson, an analyst at FBR Capital Markets.

    Analysts say BlackBerry's enterprise business is especially important because it is more profitable than the company's consumer segment.

    Rivals that already are beating BlackBerry on the consumer side are taking notice and ramping up their efforts to woo business users - and it appears to be working.

    Last year, BlackBerry for the first time shipped fewer smartphones to the commercial segment globally than Apple Inc. and Samsung Electronics Co., according to market research firm IDC.

    Several major government agencies have dumped BlackBerry devices, including the National Transportation Safety Board; U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; and the National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration.

    In a report detailing its decision, the immigration and customs agency said BlackBerry, along with Nokia, "have been relegated to laggards in the consumer market, which has made them too risky for adoption as a 'go-to' choice for enterprise use." The NTSB said its BlackBerry devices "have been failing both at inopportune times and at an unacceptable rate."

    Companies are also moving on. Home Depot Inc. dropped BlackBerrys in February and instead provided executives and senior management with iPhones, a spokeswoman said. Over at Yahoo Inc., Chief Executive Marissa Mayer rolled out a new smartphone program last fall that allowed employees to choose from several devices including the iPhone and the Samsung Galaxy S3; BlackBerry devices were left off the list.

    The departures of major companies and agencies are worrisome for the Canadian smartphone maker as it tries to turn itself around. Analysts say companies' cost-cutting measures are partly to blame: Businesses save money by having employees bring their own devices to work, and getting rid of BlackBerrys also eliminates fees associated with using the company's software.

    Many people had hoped the rollout of the BlackBerry 10 operating system, lauded for several business-friendly features including its smooth transition between work and personal profiles, would help. But analysts say the devices don't appear to be selling as well as expected.

    BlackBerry executives insist talk of the company's demise are premature and have argued repeatedly that a turnaround takes time.

    But with BlackBerry's total smartphone market share in the United States plummeting from 43 percent three years ago to just 4.8 percent in May, they admit that there is a lot of ground to make up. In its most recent quarter, BlackBerry's global subscriber base decreased again, falling to 72 million from 76 million.

    "It's always a concern when you don't meet the needs of your customers and they decide they need to go somewhere else," Scott Totzke, BlackBerry's senior vice president of security, said in an interview with the Los Angeles Times.

    But Totzke pointed out that the company still has 1 million government users and provides BlackBerry devices or services to 90 percent of Fortune 500 companies, including MetLife, ADP and Whirlpool. Executives on Wall Street said investment banks overwhelmingly go with BlackBerrys for company-issued phones.

    "There's a lot of sensationalism of what's going on," Totzke said. "There is no solution that is more secure than a BlackBerry. We've been doing it longer and better than anyone else in the industry."

    Rivals argue that their own security measures are quickly improving and that security alone is no longer enough to sustain a viable smartphone business. Increasingly, corporate users are looking for devices that are as trendy and fun as they are reliable for work, they say.

    "The folks that will be successful from an enterprise perspective aren't just the ones that have the most secure devices. You have to have a healthy mix," said Tim Wagner, vice president and general manager of Samsung Mobile's enterprise business unit, who previously worked for BlackBerry.

    "I call it the weekend test. You can use it during the week and it's highly productive, but it's still one you want to bring out on the weekend for personal use," Wagner said. "Samsung has bridged that gap better than anyone else."

    As more people move to other mobile brands, BlackBerry has been touting its multi-platform BlackBerry Enterprise Service 10, a software service that manages BlackBerry devices and can also run on iPhones and Android smartphones and tablets.

    Some analysts have suggested that BlackBerry could become a company focused primarily on providing such software services for businesses. But in an earnings call last month, Chief Executive Thorsten Heins said that making hardware was still a priority and that corporate customers had indicated they wanted "an end-to-end solution that includes the device."

    The company's stock is down 24 percent this year so far.

    Rob Enderle, principal analyst at the Enderle Group, pointed out that although BlackBerry's business has weakened in the U.S., the company continues to do well in emerging markets where BYOD policies are rare.

    He also noted that BlackBerry's losses on the enterprise side might not be as alarming as they seem. Businesses, particularly government agencies, are typically extremely private about their tech partners, so even though BlackBerry appears to have lost favor among many notable names, the brand still has loyalty behind the scenes.

    Domestically, external factors could help BlackBerry's situation, Enderle said. If the economy continues to improve, businesses will be more willing to spend money on company-issued devices instead of having workers buy their own smartphones.

    And with BlackBerry still a leader in security, and amid increased concern over privacy, a major security breach could push companies "back into BlackBerry's court again."
    OniBerry and richardat like this.
    10-17-13 02:54 PM
  10. qbnkelt's Avatar
    You stated that you can't help it if we don't like the source. I was just pointing out why, atleast I believed, it was a poor source. I don't have an issue with anecdotal evidence as I conceded that point to qbnbelt (although she disagrees about it being anecdotal) that is there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that BB has lost significant marketshare in the corporate and government enterprise market. I just thought that was a poor source to move the discussion forward because it has no real context or comparisons. It looked like you just threw those numbers from Good out there to make your point.
    I disagree with the labeling of anecdotal because the move away from BlackBerry to other platforms is factual. If I had said "someone told me that ICE had moved from BlackBerry to iPhone" that statement would be anecdotal. But the fact that the move away from BlackBerry to iPhone has in fact happened means that the report is based on reality and not conjecture or anecdotes or hearsay.
    10-17-13 03:01 PM
  11. linpakk's Avatar
    It isn't 3,500 idiots.

    These are user professionals, and they mean business.

    In fact, I'd go to say that 3,500 purchases of BlackBerry 10 phones by this company is way better than 3,500 BlackBerry 10 purchases from randoms.

    Posted via CB10

    Well its nice you would say that. No other sane person would even think it. So bravo..
    10-17-13 03:04 PM
  12. TBone4eva's Avatar
    I disagree with the labeling of anecdotal because the move away from BlackBerry to other platforms is factual. If I had said "someone told me that ICE had moved from BlackBerry to iPhone" that statement would be anecdotal. But the fact that the move away from BlackBerry to iPhone has in fact happened means that the report is based on reality and not conjecture or anecdotes or hearsay.
    Actually no, the statement of "someone told me that ICE had moved from BlackBerry to iPhone" is purely hearsay. Anecdotal and factual are not mutally exclusive. Anecdotal simply means it is something based on casual observations. A government press release that they plan to purchase X amounts of iPhones is not direct evidence. Have they actually purchased those iPhones yet? If so, did they actually purchase the full amount or are they doing it in phases as part of the general refresh that most IT departments go through? Did the sequester delay any of those purchases? We don't know this as the article you posted pointed out, thus it is anecdotal because we don't know exactly how many iPhones have been purchased. It's no different than BB telling us how many phones they "shipped". That doesn't actually tell us how many phones they "sold", which is what we really want to know because it is direct evidence of just how many people are actually using the devices and not just sitting in a warehouse.
    10-17-13 03:27 PM
  13. qbnkelt's Avatar
    Actually no, the statement of "someone told me that ICE had moved from BlackBerry to iPhone" is purely hearsay. Anecdotal and factual are not mutally exclusive. Anecdotal simply means it is something based on casual observations. A government press release that they plan to purchase X amounts of iPhones is not direct evidence. Have they actually purchased those iPhones yet? If so, did they actually purchase the full amount or are they doing it in phases as part of the general refresh that most IT departments go through? Did the sequester delay any of those purchases? We don't know this as the article you posted pointed out, thus it is anecdotal because we don't know exactly how many iPhones have been purchased. It's no different than BB telling us how many phones they "shipped". That doesn't actually tell us how many phones they "sold", which is what we really want to know because it is direct evidence of just how many people are actually using the devices and not just sitting in a warehouse.
    Definition of anecdotal (adj)
    Bing Dictionary
    anecdotal [ nnək dṓt'l ] based on anecdotes or hearsay: consisting of or based on secondhand accounts rather than firsthand knowledge or experience or scientific investigationof anecdotes: relating to anecdotes or in the form of anecdotes
    Synonyms: subjective, circumstantial, hearsay, unreliable, untrustworthy, undependable, sketchy


    Since I work in the federal government and I further work in IT and in Contracting associated with our systems, one of which is our mobile fleet and consequently BES, I can find any contract information for BlackBerry, iPhone, Android, Windows Mobile. I am not relying on press releases, I am relying on actual contracts.

    Now....I will say this....I am not about to divulge information as to what was bought, by whom, via which contract vehicle.
    10-17-13 03:36 PM
  14. DivideBYZero's Avatar
    I remember posting the same thing in July.
    My post had a little more meat to it.






    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
    The guardian article has been trashed, it was wrong, and your post is not focused on just the business sector.

    But I digress, you're a brick wall. You are only here for an argument, not a discussion.

    Posted from my RIM 850 wireless handheld
    10-17-13 04:13 PM
  15. anon62607's Avatar
    I disagree with the labeling of anecdotal because the move away from BlackBerry to other platforms is factual. If I had said "someone told me that ICE had moved from BlackBerry to iPhone" that statement would be anecdotal. But the fact that the move away from BlackBerry to iPhone has in fact happened means that the report is based on reality and not conjecture or anecdotes or hearsay.
    it's anecdotal if it is based on your own experience and is not statistically significant. simple test.
    10-17-13 04:14 PM
  16. DivideBYZero's Avatar
    1). I don't recall anyone stating that Blackberry was out of the business market. The point being made was that iPhone and Android are *in* the business market that BlackBerry used to own.

    2). The very article you posted has made the case for those who are saying that BlackBerry has in fact given ground to other platforms. Which is exactly what has been pointed out, that those platforms are not attempting to creep in, but rather, have already more than arrived. BlackBerry is giving up ground to them.


    Sent from my beautiful white iPhone 5 on iOS7 using Tapatalk
    1) Yeah they did. The point being made was that blackberry was in last place in the business market:

    iPhone exceeded bb in enterprise marketshare long ago.... And it's not close anymore. One study estimated iphone corporate sales exceeding bb by a huge magnitude last year. I think it was on the order of 5:1! Android also outsold them.
    Direct link to post: http://forums.crackberry.com/general...ml#post9345277

    2) Don't put words into my mouth, I know what I'm addressing here, despite a minority of posters Crocodile like thrashing with this topic trying to derail it. I've clearly stated they are under real pressure in the business market. I'm under no illusions, however I take issue with the statements that they are miniscule or non existant.

    Posted from my RIM 850 wireless handheld
    10-17-13 04:19 PM
  17. anon62607's Avatar
    Definition of anecdotal (adj)
    Bing Dictionary
    anecdotal [ nnək dṓt'l ] based on anecdotes or hearsay: consisting of or based on secondhand accounts rather than firsthand knowledge or experience or scientific investigationof anecdotes: relating to anecdotes or in the form of anecdotes
    Synonyms: subjective, circumstantial, hearsay, unreliable, untrustworthy, undependable, sketchy


    Since I work in the federal government and I further work in IT and in Contracting associated with our systems, one of which is our mobile fleet and consequently BES, I can find any contract information for BlackBerry, iPhone, Android, Windows Mobile. I am not relying on press releases, I am relying on actual contracts.

    Now....I will say this....I am not about to divulge information as to what was bought, by whom, via which contract vehicle.
    that is probably public information anyway.
    10-17-13 04:19 PM
  18. David Murray1's Avatar
    Another day, more negative articles about BlackBerry. You'd think it was some kind of routine, with people copying each other's opinions, signed and paid for by Apple Inc ... oh wait?
    10-17-13 04:20 PM
  19. anon62607's Avatar
    Another day, more negative articles about BlackBerry. You'd think it was some kind of routine, with people copying each other's opinions, signed and paid for by Apple Inc ... oh wait?
    if apple wanted to of something about blackberry they could just buy it at the cost of a few weeks of their profit.
    10-17-13 04:23 PM
  20. qbnkelt's Avatar
    that is probably public information anyway.
    Some of it, sure.

    Which proves that it is factual and not anecdotal.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using CB Forums mobile app
    10-17-13 04:27 PM
  21. walt63's Avatar
    Well this thread escalated fast.

    Everyone calm down. This is a healthy debate. I encourage these conversations instead of "my phone is better than yours".

    As for my points, it was just my opinion. I dont work for BBRY. I dont own stock (well not anymore). So my thoughts are not to be confused for a fanboy or as defending a struggling company.

    Furthermore, to say that BBRY is still the leader in corporate and governmental devices isn't silly or far-fetched. You can look up articles about how a government or governmental organization went to Apple. If you conduct intensive research, you'll probably find that it's not a very long list compared to what BBRY has.

    @qbnkelt...You seem legit. I value your comments here on CB. Do you really believe that Apple's list has surpassed all the businesses/corporations (big and small) and governments (including at the local and state level) globally that are using BlackBerry devices and BES. Now I think that's a little far-fetched if you think so.

    I have resources in IT at some top companies in my area. They've yet to get away from BlackBerry devices. I currently work for a company in which the information communicated in house are extremely sensitive in regards to government regulations. BES and BlackBerry is all I see in meetings by top executives. When I was working in the automotive industry the Big Three (automotive) used BlackBerry for those who want access to network files and do corporate traveling. BYOD access is open to those who only want email and no other secured access. According to a recent conversation, this is still the case. This is from my resources. Not from articles or hearsay.

    Most importantly, 3,500 unit purchases from ONE company is huge. That's a great purchase for any mobile provider (yes even Apple). I'm talking enterprise consumers (before someone shouts Apple consumer numbers from the top of their lungs). KPMG is a reputable financial consulting company at that. So to try to knock that down is silly.
    10-17-13 04:29 PM
  22. qbnkelt's Avatar
    1) Yeah they did. The point being made was that blackberry was in last place in the business market:

    Direct link to post: http://forums.crackberry.com/general...ml#post9345277

    2) Don't put words into my mouth, I know what I'm addressing here, despite a minority of posters Crocodile like thrashing with this topic trying to derail it. I've clearly stated they are under real pressure in the business market. I'm under no illusions, however I take issue with the statements that they are miniscule or non existant.

    Posted from my RIM 850 wireless handheld
    being out of the business market is not the same as being last



    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using CB Forums mobile app
    10-17-13 04:30 PM
  23. DivideBYZero's Avatar
    being out of the business market is not the same as being last



    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using CB Forums mobile app
    What's your point? I ask because you're not addressing anything I posted.
    10-17-13 04:34 PM
  24. walt63's Avatar
    To add to my recent comment...

    It's easy to find articles about how Apple is doing this and that. Apple is what get the web pageviews/clicks. So when Apple does get a corporate or government contract, it will be written about. Apple has a great PR team.

    So you're going to find those few articles out there, but that's just a few.
    10-17-13 04:39 PM
  25. linpakk's Avatar
    1) I'm under no illusions, however I take issue with the statements that they are miniscule or non existant.

    Posted from my RIM 850 wireless handheld
    They are.
    10-17-13 04:39 PM
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