1. Rootbrian's Avatar
    This is one reason for the "Mac Tax" and why Macs are typically more expensive although comparative PCs are usually around the same price point and sometimes higher. Another reason is that Jobs new full well that you do not compete with your own lineup which is there was never a "low end Mac" or various iPhones, iPods, etc. Yeah, the Mac Mini might be considered "low end" but its form factor is totally different. Same with the iMacs and Mac Pro. If you want a desktop that is cheaper than the Mac Pro but not as "puny" as the Mac Mini you have to get an iMac (or an older Mac Pro) as their is no "entry-level Mac, let alone an entry level Mac Pro".

    Jobs saw that when Toshiba, Sony, et al began releasing low-priced netbooks sales of their top of the line laptops dropped drastically over night.
    If you want OS X, you could try getting it to boot off of your PC, which is hit or miss. Instead of buying new, just grab GNU/Linux, or reinstall windows clean, start fresh. If it keeps ******* up, stay with GNU/Linux. It's what I have done since I was told about free software. I'm proud to use BlackBerry 10 (QNX) which has the FLOSS android runtime included.
    09-18-15 11:01 PM
  2. lnichols's Avatar
    I'm trying to see it the same way as I look at the success of iOS devices. The more iPhones/iPads Apple sells, the more cash they have to keep making Macs. The more *shudders* Android BBs are sold, the more I can hope for the survival of BB10.
    But it's obviously different, as OS X is needed to develop for iOS, while BB10 depends on the choices of corporations and governments...
    The problem with this poor analogy is Apple makes plenty of money with Macs. They have 7.8% of the laptop market share and are growing while everyone else is shrinking. They also have a higher ASP and profit per device than anyone. They have 12.7% of the PC market too, again with higher ASP and profit per device. Apple doesn't need to dominate the market competing with the Android and Windows business models because they have such huge margins in phone, tablet and PC sales that they are getting the most profit from their lower sales.

    BlackBerry won't be able to make major profits with Android, because no one is! People who can make phone faster, cheaper and better than BlackBerry can't make money with Android handsets, so how will BlackBerry? Android, like Windows is a race to bottom OS that enriches Google and Microsoft respectively, and has the OEMS fighting it out with each other to try and scrape out some profit.

    Posted via Z30
    dusanvn likes this.
    09-19-15 07:46 AM
  3. Allanon89's Avatar
    I knew it was a poor analogy - I was just trying to see something positive for BB10 fans in all this.
    More realistically, I have always been in tune with your view. And I think it's hard to tell whether the keyboard will be enough of a differentiator on the market. Personally, for me it's not. I would only buy a new BlackBerry for the whole package, BB10 included.
    But considering what many of the great thinkers in this forum say, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and settle for a more optimistic view waiting for the future to unfold.
    I've lived through the Elop times at Nokia, so I'm quite skeptical of salvation coming from the outside as a third party OS (even though Android is leading the market, while Windows Phone was always a crazy bet). At the times, many were saying it was the right thing to do - it turned out a catastrophe, so I'm not holding my breath for the success of this strategy.
    dusanvn likes this.
    09-19-15 08:25 AM
  4. lnichols's Avatar
    I knew it was a poor analogy - I was just trying to see something positive for BB10 fans in all this.
    More realistically, I have always been in tune with your view. And I think it's hard to tell whether the keyboard will be enough of a differentiator on the market. Personally, for me it's not. I would only buy a new BlackBerry for the whole package, BB10 included.
    But considering what many of the great thinkers in this forum say, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and settle for a more optimistic view waiting for the future to unfold.
    I've lived through the Elop times at Nokia, so I'm quite skeptical of salvation coming from the outside as a third party OS (even though Android is leading the market, while Windows Phone was always a crazy bet). At the times, many were saying it was the right thing to do - it turned out a catastrophe, so I'm not holding my breath for the success of this strategy.
    Yeah I'm buying my first non BlackBerry device in 8 years since I started buying them. This Android move and the lack of development on BB10 shows that BlackBerry isn't interested in existing customers and they are abandoning yet another platform, and I have zero interest in Android. I have a feeling this Android thing is going to blow up in BlackBerry's face, because non of the regulated customers that use BB10 consider Android at all due to its lack of security. I'm going where the developers priority is and where Cisco is working closely with. BlackBerry is lost.

    Posted via Z30
    Bluenoser63, dusanvn and Allanon89 like this.
    09-19-15 09:04 AM
  5. crucial bbq's Avatar
    If you want OS X, you could try getting it to boot off of your PC, which is hit or miss. Instead of buying new, just grab GNU/Linux, or reinstall windows clean, start fresh. If it keeps ******* up, stay with GNU/Linux. It's what I have done since I was told about free software. I'm proud to use BlackBerry 10 (QNX) which has the FLOSS android runtime included.
    Off topic, but...

    ...I want OSX. I have owned Macs exclusively since 1997. I use PCs every now and then but the only computers I buy are Macs. Ironically, perhaps, I think iOS is okay for the tablet format but sucks as a mobile OS. I suppose it is all about how I use my phone, though, which is why I use BlackBerry's. Android cannot give me that experience, either, and I have owned a few Android devices with the last one being last summer (owned for two months, ended up giving it to my mom).

    Linux is cool but it is also a huge pain in the behind. I began playing around with it back 2003 or so and have Fedora installed on my 2007 Mac Book. Name a distro and I have likely tried it. It may be free but like I said it is a huge pain in the behind to maintain.

    But yes, I am also really into BB10 with QNX with ART.
    09-19-15 10:58 AM
  6. bigjman's Avatar
    It's done anyway. If Samsung, HTC, LG, etc are all having issues making money with Android, that race to the bottom OS, then how is BlackBerry going to compete? They have shot themselves in the foot for 7 years straight, but Android is going to fix it all.....

    Posted via Z30
    Why do people think this Slider android device is looked at as the savior or as the make or break device for the hardware division? Why can it just be another device that they are coming out with?

    Posted via CB10
    09-19-15 10:57 PM
  7. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Why do people think this Slider android device is looked at as the savior or as the make or break device for the hardware division? Why can it just be another device that they are coming out with?
    It's because BB's BB10 sales fell to 890,000 for the entire last quarter, and the trend is still falling. And that's with BB taking an approximately $100 loss with every phone sold. It isn't sustainable to make hardware when you are selling so few devices. Even with all of BB's cuts, they still are a 7,000 person company with huge overhead. There are companies with 150 people who are selling more phones per quarter than BB, and barely making a profit. BB10 has not made a single cent in net profit - it's responsible for about $5B in losses, and those losses continue to grow.

    If you think the Board Of Directors (not to mention the shareholders) will let BB continue to lose money by staying in the hardware business, you are delusional. Chen knows this, which is why he has talked about leaving the hardware business if he can't find a way to turn a profit.

    Android was something he could "sell" to the BoD as an idea for future profits. BB10's fate has been clear for a long time - if it was going to turn a profit, it would have done so long ago, when it still had some developer support. There is zero chance of that now. So if Android fails for BB (or, perhaps, if BB fails at Android), then the most likely scenario is BB exiting the handset business entirely. Which many big shareholders have been urging them to do for a long time already.
    09-20-15 12:48 AM
  8. Allanon89's Avatar
    BB10's fate has been clear for a long time - if it was going to turn a profit, it would have done so long ago
    Sure you're right, but such arguments here always assume BB10's failure is intrinsic to the OS and nothing could have been done to try a turnaround. They always make it look like there's a *DOOM* comment written on every line of the BB10 codebase, so it's so doomed nobody sane in their minds would ever bet a penny on its resurrection.
    You could have said the same about BB itself. "BB is failing, its market share is dwindling, the only option is closing down". Like there was no chance to save it.
    It's not like it. There can always be turnarounds, at least there can be if someone makes an attempt.

    It was clear it was a matter of marketing and app availability rather than devices, yet the best efforts were spent making new niche devices. We all might agree it's too late now, but please stop talking about the failure of BB10 as a fait accompli since a long time, because It Was Not.
    manicstreet likes this.
    09-21-15 05:47 AM
  9. Rootbrian's Avatar
    Sure you're right, but such arguments here always assume BB10's failure is intrinsic to the OS and nothing could have been done to try a turnaround. They always make it look like there's a *DOOM* comment written on every line of the BB10 codebase, so it's so doomed nobody sane in their minds would ever bet a penny on its resurrection.
    You could have said the same about BB itself. "BB is failing, its market share is dwindling, the only option is closing down". Like there was no chance to save it.
    It's not like it. There can always be turnarounds, at least there can be if someone makes an attempt.

    It was clear it was a matter of marketing and app availability rather than devices, yet the best efforts were spent making new niche devices. We all might agree it's too late now, but please stop talking about the failure of BB10 as a fait accompli since a long time, because It Was Not.
    Had it been a failure, we would never have BlackBerry 10 (QNX) powered smartphones to begin with.

    So as long as BlackBerry is doing well and making a few per year, and finding ways to fix things slowly, we need to look at the bright side of things. Let the sun shine in!
    09-21-15 05:57 AM
  10. Soulstream's Avatar
    Sure you're right, but such arguments here always assume BB10's failure is intrinsic to the OS and nothing could have been done to try a turnaround. They always make it look like there's a *DOOM* comment written on every line of the BB10 codebase, so it's so doomed nobody sane in their minds would ever bet a penny on its resurrection.
    You could have said the same about BB itself. "BB is failing, its market share is dwindling, the only option is closing down". Like there was no chance to save it.
    It's not like it. There can always be turnarounds, at least there can be if someone makes an attempt.

    It was clear it was a matter of marketing and app availability rather than devices, yet the best efforts were spent making new niche devices. We all might agree it's too late now, but please stop talking about the failure of BB10 as a fait accompli since a long time, because It Was Not.
    You might not remember, but when BB10 launched there was an effort to bring big-name apps to BB10. Some were even promised to come "soon". Of course, that didn't happen. Hell, the only big-name apps we have a native version of is Whatsapp. That speaks volumes of the ecosystem health of BB (or lack of).
    09-21-15 06:37 AM
  11. Burton79's Avatar
    If backed into a corner and I had to make a choice between the physical devices and the OS from blackberry, I would choose the devices as I think they are the best at the pkb. I have loved the devices for years, even when my old bolds were suffering from the spinning clock syndrome. I'm a huge fan of the new passport keyboard and i'm really looking forward to trying the slider out as I've never owned a 16:9 screen. I think this gives me the best of both worlds in a device. I only hope the blurry camera software ive got on my passport is a one off and the sliders is better. Do I love BB10? Absolutely. But if going android is the way I get to keep my blackberry devices then I will be happy to continue the support in that way and hope the company works something into the Android OS that keeps bbm, the hub, and my typing experience the same as I have now.

    Posted via CB10
    09-21-15 07:10 AM
  12. Allanon89's Avatar
    You might not remember, but when BB10 launched there was an effort to bring big-name apps to BB10.
    Sure I remember that. My point stands as before.
    09-21-15 07:36 AM
  13. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    BB10 has been dying since BlackBerry stopped putting resources into future development. It will be supported and patched, but nothing else.
    09-21-15 07:50 AM
  14. ZeBB45's Avatar
    All this doom and gloom talk is quite humorous really. I'm sure that there is a high percentage of people here think that soon as the venice hits the shelves their BB10 os devices will stop functioning. The OS is mature at this stage, yes we will loose app support but we are pretty much facing that already with the native facebook app using outdated API's.

    Android Runtime will see us through. In fact, the latest version of Instagram sends all notifications to the hub every time and does not cause battery drain when left running in the background. It should also be noted that I'd like to see the OHA nazi's reaction when the Andoid devices release doesn't mean the removal of the Runtime.

    Q10 - 10.3.2.2639/SR .2474  < α∂∂ιт > 
    Zeddepher likes this.
    09-21-15 07:54 AM
  15. Valker's Avatar
    They are working on OS11. But BB still supports OS5 and OS7 - so I don't think you need to worry about OS10
    Jahcure and Slash82 like this.
    09-21-15 08:22 AM
  16. bigjman's Avatar
    I don't know, call me crazy but I'll take the word from Chen himself over some of you 'experts' "I don't drop handsets for two reasons," "It is the first line of defence in encryption.", "It is very difficult for BlackBerry to provide customers with end-to-end security if it doesn't have its own smartphones." Even though security is their bread and butter these days, looks like devices will still be a part of that so I wouldn't worry.

    Posted via CB10
    09-21-15 08:32 AM
  17. lnichols's Avatar
    Why do people think this Slider android device is looked at as the savior or as the make or break device for the hardware division? Why can it just be another device that they are coming out with?

    Posted via CB10
    Because it is yet another software transition for the company. How many of those do you think a company can do before they are just a laughing stock in the industry? This move will cause people to leave the brand, and they will be replaced for one generation with a fickle Android crowd that change phone makes often and have no real brand loyalty.

    Posted via Z30
    09-21-15 09:08 AM
  18. cgk's Avatar
    All this doom and gloom talk is quite humorous really. I'm sure that there is a high percentage of people here think that soon as the venice hits the shelves their BB10 os devices will stop functioning. The OS is mature at this stage, yes we will loose app support but we are pretty much facing that already with the native facebook app using outdated API's.

    Android Runtime will see us through. In fact, the latest version of Instagram sends all notifications to the hub every time and does not cause battery drain when left running in the background. It should also be noted that I'd like to see the OHA nazi's reaction when the Andoid devices release doesn't mean the removal of the Runtime.

    Q10 - 10.3.2.2639/SR .2474  < α∂∂ιт > 
    Leaving aside your distasteful (and grammatically incorrect) use of the word Nazis - its the removal of Runtime from new devices that is the matter of discussion - nothing about the OHA requires it to be removed from old devices (but it would have to be unsupported).

    Given that its two versions out of date and about to three - that problem will take care of itself as more and more apps stop working...
    09-21-15 09:16 AM
  19. Slash82's Avatar
    Thank you for all your replies!

    It's interesting to see what you replied and what you think!
    Also it is kinda good to see that this seems to be just some stupid rumors and no one in this community has informations about anything to that is true.

    OS10 does not deserve that bad treatment, I personally love all about it - the only thing BlackBerry still sucks at is marketing to bring it to the people.

    I still don't get why Chen won't invest more money for TV or radio commercials. The Z10 and Q10 were not presented good enough, even the superbowl commercial really sucked - even as a diehard BlackBerry fan. Sure I have seen some ads in news papers, but really?!

    A few years a ago there were some really good (short) commercials on youtube for BBM - little commercials for BlackBerry devices or BBM or services on TV would be great! And only to tell people BlackBerry isn't dead. Because that is the first I get asked when people see me using a BlackBerry: "Ain't they gone?"

    Posted via CB10
    09-21-15 10:31 AM
  20. cathulu15's Avatar
    Whatever happens it will be very interesting days ahead - very interesting indeed. What a roller coaster we are on.

    I certainly have no regrets about my recently acquired Passport SE, best phone I have ever owned despite some one handed use limitations. BB10 will be good for a few years yet worst case. If we lose the runtime I hope they can make one last patch before Venice comes out...

    Thank you BlackBerry, live long and prosper! :^)

     Passport SE 
    09-21-15 12:05 PM
  21. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    I still don't get why Chen won't invest more money for TV or radio commercials. The Z10 and Q10 were not presented good enough, even the superbowl commercial really sucked - even as a diehard BlackBerry fan. Sure I have seen some ads in news papers, but really?!
    It's both simple and complex.

    The simple: BB simply can't afford TV commercials. They are very expensive.

    The complex: While advertising is certainly one of the bigger problems for BB10, it's far from the only problem, and in order to have any hope of significant devices sales (which is the only way to justify spending a bunch of money on expensive advertising in the first place), you'd have to solve most or all of the other problems first, or the advertising will be a total waste of money.

    Let's say a potential customer sees a great TV ad for BB10 and likes what he sees. There are so many other things that can de-rail a purchase of a BB10 device as a result of that commercial that it makes the ad spend far too big of a risk.

    • Lack of an ecosystem (native apps, services, media store, wearables, accessories, etc.).
    • Lack of distribution (carriers actually stocking the phones in the stores to purchase that day).
    • Lack of carrier relations (no training or sales programs for carrier store employees, who will recommend other devices to potential BB10 customers)
    • Lack of marketing (premium store placement, in-store displays, functional demo units, etc.)
    • Lack of after-sale support (having to deal with BB for repairs/replacements is awful, especially compared to Apple, who sets the standard).
    • Lack of the most popular hardware configuration (16:9 all-touch) with competitive specs.


    And there are others, but that's enough to get the idea. Even if a TV ad could get people to consider a BB10 phone, all of those other issues would result in the vast majority of potential buyers coming home from the cellular store with some other device. I know some here like to pretend that all non-BB10 buyers are "dumb sheep", and certainly some are, but a great many know what things are important, and things like apps, after-sale support, accessories, and support from third parties (hardware, software, and services) are things that most customers care about, and will make most customers avoid BB10 once they realize what the situation with BB10 actually is.

    John Chen is smart enough not to throw good money after bad, and given that he doesn't have the money to fix all of those other problems, he's not going to waste money on TV ads that ultimately won't result in a significant increase in device sales (and will thus cause BB10 to lose even more money than it already is).
    Slash82, LazyEvul, bigjman and 1 others like this.
    09-21-15 03:51 PM
  22. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    All this doom and gloom talk is quite humorous really. I'm sure that there is a high percentage of people here think that soon as the venice hits the shelves their BB10 os devices will stop functioning. The OS is mature at this stage, yes we will loose app support but we are pretty much facing that already with the native facebook app using outdated API's.

    Android Runtime will see us through. In fact, the latest version of Instagram sends all notifications to the hub every time and does not cause battery drain when left running in the background. It should also be noted that I'd like to see the OHA nazi's reaction when the Andoid devices release doesn't mean the removal of the Runtime.

    Q10 - 10.3.2.2639/SR .2474  < α∂∂ιт > 
    I think most think that BB10 will continue to function as it does right now. I don't think BlackBerry will be force to remove the Runtime from existing devices to meet OHA requirements - they just can't sell(or maybe produce) any new devices.

    It's the unknown of not getting an Android update past the already two year old Jellybean based runtime we have today. It's the unauthorized access to Google Play via a few hacks that might get patched by Google.... will SNAP and Cobalt be here 6 months from now, to look for new ways in? It's possible you won't be able to use the latest version of Instagram, you might be force to look for one that is over a year old now.

    Fortunately, very few have bought into the BB10 platform over the last year.... by far the majority of BB10 users are about ready for an upgrade anyway and won't have to deal with the PlayBook, I mean BB10 becoming obsolete. And anyone that did buy into the BB10 platform in the last year.... should have know what that were buying into.
    techvisor likes this.
    09-21-15 04:15 PM
  23. Rootbrian's Avatar
    I think most think that BB10 will continue to function as it does right now. I don't think BlackBerry will be force to remove the Runtime from existing devices to meet OHA requirements - they just can't sell(or maybe produce) any new devices.

    It's the unknown of not getting an Android update past the already two year old Jellybean based runtime we have today. It's the unauthorized access to Google Play via a few hacks that might get patched by Google.... will SNAP and Cobalt be here 6 months from now, to look for new ways in? It's possible you won't be able to use the latest version of Instagram, you might be force to look for one that is over a year old now.

    Fortunately, very few have bought into the BB10 platform over the last year.... by far the majority of BB10 users are about ready for an upgrade anyway and won't have to deal with the PlayBook, I mean BB10 becoming obsolete. And anyone that did buy into the BB10 platform in the last year.... should have know what that were buying into.
    Nope, it's not going to become like the playbook. Doesn't seem like it either. When the CEO made those quotes, he wasn't joking around. It's not going away anytime soon. And our devices won't stop functioning anytime soon after either. BB10 is QNX, and that's not going away.
    ALToronto likes this.
    09-21-15 04:47 PM
  24. Slash82's Avatar
    Fortunately, very few have bought into the BB10 platform over the last year.... by far the majority of BB10 users are about ready for an upgrade anyway and won't have to deal with the PlayBook, I mean BB10 becoming obsolete. And anyone that did buy into the BB10 platform in the last year.... should have know what that were buying into.
    I see your point.
    But I don't think that OS10 is really obsolete - sure too less native apps for consumers. But I think that is the price for privacy. Might be the reason why BlackBerry is making their own versions of Facebook, Twitter and so on.
    Privacy is becoming more and more important these days and a lot of apps that are built for iOS/Android are made mostly to snoop on users.
    I also know that there never 100% security, but OS10 made to protect users as much as possible.
    Would be sad if apps were over privacy.

    Posted via CB10
    09-21-15 05:05 PM
  25. charbarney's Avatar
    I hope not

    Posted on the Z30 STA100-5
    09-21-15 08:28 PM
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