10-16-15 09:25 AM
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  1. BigAl_BB9900's Avatar
    *whoosh* Hear that? That's the sound of my point flying straight over your head. A company that is in the business of security cannot jeopardize its reputation by claiming security on something as inherently insecure as an Android device. It is better to be honest in this case, than to stake a claim to something that will be refuted in a blink.
    Couldn't agree more. The USP of the BlackBerry Company is Security (unfortunately, it's USP hasn't been smartphones for years).
    10-09-15 08:57 PM
  2. cbvinh's Avatar
    Srry but the FBI has been using the Blackphone for a while now..get the facts right
    When did he mention FBI? He didn't.

    You've also proved his point. People who don't have a surplus of money won't be buying the Blackphone and paying $100/year for the service. The FBI might, but not the average consumer.
    Superfly_FR likes this.
    10-09-15 09:10 PM
  3. cbvinh's Avatar
    Some people keep saying Chen is actively trying to dismantle hardware. If you really want to know what "dismantling hardware" really is, look up what happened to HP under Leo Apotheker and to some extent, Nokia under Stephen Elop. A CEO doesn't have to create some artificial missteps with hardware to "prove" hardware isn't viable. He/she just shuts it down.

    What we have with Chen is a more controlled shutdown of hardware. Enjoy it while it lasts.
    JeepBB and Bluenoser63 like this.
    10-09-15 09:19 PM
  4. Toodeurep's Avatar
    I've been pretty clear that I think BBRY will be out of handsets shortly and that BB10 is already dead either way...
    Car to define "shortly" or are you going to just keep saying it and being wrong? Eventually, even the ones wearing the sandwich boards clamoring on about the end of the world will be correct. It has been the same empty doomsday prophecy for far to long to research and far too long for you to take any credit if and when it does come to pass.

    I saw your presence in another thread where you promised to stay away for 6 months and couldn't live up to it so I doubt any sincerity in this one as well.
    buwee and hoonigan99 like this.
    10-09-15 09:19 PM
  5. cbvinh's Avatar
    I'm beginning to think those critical of Chen's public speaking want a CEO that will tell them that what they're buying is the "best", "magical", "amazing", etc. whether it's true or not.

    To me, Chen is comparing the PRIV to devices people will be comparing it with anyway. When I say "people", I'm talking about the Enterprise customers Chen wants, not the average consumer, who currently has not shown any interest in privacy/security. Sure, the average consumer "wants" privacy/security, but not enough to give up conveniences.

    The PRIV serves three purposes at this point: 1. keep hardware revenue going until software/services can take over, 2. provide a "premiere" platform for BlackBerry's security services, 3. sales to some consumers, who want features unique to the PRIV, whether that be some better privacy/security, keyboard, Google Play apps, etc.
    10-09-15 09:42 PM
  6. KAM1138's Avatar
    I'm not saying you are one who whines about apps, it was a broad statement because many do, and they are the ones pushing for android. I am in the same boat as you, I don't care about apps, I get everything I need from current BB10 and the only thing I downloaded from amazon was spotify, but I actually prefer slacker anyway as the ads are much more bearable and you don't get one with every song skip.

    I know it sucks that it's going to be an android, I am as let down as you, but I just hope you can see that this was a necessary move for survival of the company, and if it succeeds we may both get our wishes in the form of future BB10 phones. They won't be the latest specs and all that nonsense, but this Q10 does just fine, and I'm sure anything they make in a year or two will be even better.

    Chen may be trying to dismantle hardware, but I believe he is actually trying to spare it. The masses have not realized how much of their life is being wasted by pointless apps, when that does happen, the opportunity for developers to offer real productive apps on all platforms will be more feasible. Envision if you will, a new enterprise app store, only legitimate productivity apps are permitted and designed for use on all four primary OS. Maybe I'm just dreaming now, but believe me the ecosystem environment is going to transform over the next few years along with the smartphone market

    BB for Life
    Well, currently people seem content with wasting a lot of time and are willing to sacrifice not only the time, but also general efficiency and productivity for the privilege (oh man, I didn't even plan that).

    I really have to stretch to find more than a few apps that I really want for my phone, and even the ones that I do rarely live up to my expectations.

    KAM
    10-10-15 12:22 AM
  7. Mr.mister's Avatar
    You guys are so pathetically pessimistic.

    Chen was saying Android is not as secure as bb10 but the ultra secure market is tiny. Within the relative scale of Android only the Samsung WITH Knox is as secure as the slider and the Blackphone can say they are just as good or better. Chen has to uptalk Samsung with Knox cuz BlackBerry is a business partner with Samsung to secure Knox. If people buy a knox, BlackBerry makes $.

    The Blackphone probably isn't a big seller but regardless Chen has to champion other secure phones cuz he is in that business.

    Meanwhile, the balance of the Android market (Sony, LG, motorola, oneplusone, huwaei, HTC, etc.) sucks at security, so Chen is saying look at BlackBerry.

    So there.

    I agree the Priv name is terrible. So all is not rosy.

    Posted via CB10
    Why not blatantly say it then.
    Priv is not that bad actually (please don't burn my house)

    I don't have patience to sugarcoat things.
    10-10-15 12:58 AM
  8. cgk's Avatar
    Car to define "shortly" or are you going to just keep saying it and being wrong?
    Well by shortly I mean bb10 has already gone (privy is repositioned hardware that was clearly meant to be a bb10 device) and the plug pulling will occur unless priv Sells in the multiple millions. So we are looking middle of next year. Official word might take slightly longer but we will know as soon as we see a full quarter of sales.

    It has been the same empty doomsday prophecy
    Lets talk about prophecy:

    In an interview with Bloomberg, BlackBerry CEO, Thorsten Heins, said, “We have very, very good first signs already after the [Q10] launch in the UK. This is going into the installed base of more than 70 million BlackBerry users so we have quite some expectations. We expect several tens of million of units.”
    It was a bomb, along with every other BB device - have the BBRY faithful ever got anything right about BB10? Anything?

    No, they roll around speaking in tongues and muttering the odd word we can make out like "HYPERVISOR", "DUAL-BOOT", "SECURITY". They see signs of mysteriously third parties (Samsung, Microsoft, even Apple) who are going to swoop in and save the day.

    When they get something right, anything right, then they get to the point the finger.
    Last edited by cgk; 10-10-15 at 01:47 AM.
    JeepBB and Eumaeus like this.
    10-10-15 01:29 AM
  9. buwee's Avatar
    Car to define "shortly" or are you going to just keep saying it and being wrong? Eventually, even the ones wearing the sandwich boards clamoring on about the end of the world will be correct. It has been the same empty doomsday prophecy for far to long to research and far too long for you to take any credit if and when it does come to pass.

    I saw your presence in another thread where you promised to stay away for 6 months and couldn't live up to it so I doubt any sincerity in this one as well.
    For someone that seemingly is dead set at not being interested in another BB, he sure hangs out here a lot LOL, All he has to say are negatives, and yet he's here continuously predicting the demise of BB. I know if I have no interest in a product or brand name anymore, I sure as heck wouldn't be hanging around these forums any longer, unless of course I don't have a life, or he really is still really interested but just wants to make it look like he's not. LOL

    With all the doomsday predictions over the last several years, BB was suppose to be gone long ago, but their still here and still in business, but of course CGK called it - LMAO and will LMAO even more when he is once again proven wrong.
    10-10-15 03:40 AM
  10. JeepBB's Avatar
    Some people keep saying Chen is actively trying to dismantle hardware. If you really want to know what "dismantling hardware" really is, look up what happened to HP under Leo Apotheker and to some extent, Nokia under Stephen Elop. A CEO doesn't have to create some artificial missteps with hardware to "prove" hardware isn't viable. He/she just shuts it down.

    What we have with Chen is a more controlled shutdown of hardware. Enjoy it while it lasts.
    Yes, I agree with this.

    Chen is giving many heavy hints about exiting hardware - the "hardware done if not profitable", "hardware decision within next year", etc kind of statement - that the end goal must be clear to anyone who is willing to see it.

    I personally believe that if hardware wasn't still responsible for 40% of revenue, then it would have been closed already. It must be a great disappointment to Chen that his (again, much publicised) intent to transition BB into a software company is moving so slowly because software revenue isn't growing as fast as I'm sure he'd hoped.

    But, the end-goal that Chen is moving towards is clear.

    It doesn't require drug-induced prophetic powers to see the future of BB hardware, just an ability to read the financial reports, listen (really listen) to what Chen says, and a sheet of graph-paper with BB quarterly sales on one axis and time on the other. A ruler is also handy for drawing the straight line through the graph points - it hits zero in three quarters.

    But, as I've said, I'm more of an interested observer than a BB fan these days so maybe I see things differently to some on CB. And the old saying about there being none so blind as those that won't see is as true as it ever was.
    Bay 13 likes this.
    10-10-15 05:03 AM
  11. Toodeurep's Avatar
    Well by shortly I mean bb10 has already gone (privy is repositioned hardware that was clearly meant to be a bb10 device) and the plug pulling will occur unless priv Sells in the multiple millions. So we are looking middle of next year. Official word might take slightly longer but we will know as soon as we see a full quarter of sales.



    Lets talk about prophecy:



    It was a bomb, along with every other BB device - have the BBRY faithful ever got anything right about BB10? Anything?

    No, they roll around speaking in tongues and muttering the odd word we can make out like "HYPERVISOR", "DUAL-BOOT", "SECURITY". They see signs of mysteriously third parties (Samsung, Microsoft, even Apple) who are going to swoop in and save the day.

    When they get something right, anything right, then they get to the point the finger.
    So, that's a No. That is what I thought.
    10-10-15 07:16 AM
  12. Toodeurep's Avatar
    Well by shortly I mean bb10 has already gone (privy is repositioned hardware that was clearly meant to be a bb10 device) and the plug pulling will occur unless priv Sells in the multiple millions. So we are looking middle of next year. Official word might take slightly longer but we will know as soon as we see a full quarter of sales.



    Lets talk about prophecy:



    It was a bomb, along with every other BB device - have the BBRY faithful ever got anything right about BB10? Anything?

    No, they roll around speaking in tongues and muttering the odd word we can make out like "HYPERVISOR", "DUAL-BOOT", "SECURITY". They see signs of mysteriously third parties (Samsung, Microsoft, even Apple) who are going to swoop in and save the day.

    When they get something right, anything right, then they get to the point the finger.
    And seriously, that is the best you can do? Mix legitimate quotes from the BB CEO with the hopes and dreams of over zealous fans.

    I know you are going to struggle with this, but...

    A person who visits a fan site constantly trumpeting doom and gloom is a lessor person than those crazed fans clamoring about dual-boot and hypervisors.
    cgk likes this.
    10-10-15 07:23 AM
  13. Toodeurep's Avatar
    For someone that seemingly is dead set at not being interested in another BB, he sure hangs out here a lot LOL, All he has to say are negatives, and yet he's here continuously predicting the demise of BB. I know if I have no interest in a product or brand name anymore, I sure as heck wouldn't be hanging around these forums any longer, unless of course I don't have a life, or he really is still really interested but just wants to make it look like he's not. LOL

    With all the doomsday predictions over the last several years, BB was suppose to be gone long ago, but their still here and still in business, but of course CGK called it - LMAO and will LMAO even more when he is once again proven wrong.
    These types of posters as a rule avoid mirrors. They can call out fans for being wrong and taking information out of context, but they themselves miss wildly on their own predictions (if they ever actually make one) avoid direct quotes, and avoid quotes with context. Usually, they quote others that take information out of context. The first post in this thread is a perfect example of this process.
    10-10-15 07:30 AM
  14. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    Some people keep saying Chen is actively trying to dismantle hardware. If you really want to know what "dismantling hardware" really is, look up what happened to HP under Leo Apotheker and to some extent, Nokia under Stephen Elop. A CEO doesn't have to create some artificial missteps with hardware to "prove" hardware isn't viable. He/she just shuts it down.

    What we have with Chen is a more controlled shutdown of hardware. Enjoy it while it lasts.
    Yes. He is doing it in a controlled way, but I think that this was his plan from the beginning. He had no intentions of ever promoting BlackBerry hardware and only wanted to do software. He actually stopped work on BB10 OS about a year ago. He didn't want to promote the phones in case they actually sold. He is killing the hardware division by stealth because he doesn't understand the consumer/hardware market so he wants to kill it.
    10-10-15 07:35 AM
  15. kuje75's Avatar
    Not easy to be JC

    ClassicSQC100-1/10.3.2.2639
    10-10-15 07:55 AM
  16. Ethereo's Avatar
    Yes. He is doing it in a controlled way, but I think that this was his plan from the beginning. He had no intentions of ever promoting BlackBerry hardware and only wanted to do software. He actually stopped work on BB10 OS about a year ago. He didn't want to promote the phones in case they actually sold. He is killing the hardware division by stealth because he doesn't understand the consumer/hardware market so he wants to kill it.
    I agree, He doesnt know about HW so he is focusing in what his strenght is :SW, transitioning a company like BB from one to another must be a hard task, harder when you see how the last years every CEO including Chen has failed in a big way in the HW divisin, I dont even know how these guys cant see that they have to rebuild the Brand and that can be only accomplished with excellent products and marketing, and they werent able to deliver, so BB in less than one year will be an only SW company, because for me the Priv will be a flop, it brings nothing new to the Android market, oh wait, the PKB, meh.
    10-10-15 08:17 AM
  17. Benjamin Black's Avatar
    Here is the thing, if you are going to mention the strength of the blackphone over BlackBerry's Priv then you need to also mention why consumers should be more interested in the Priv than the blackphone. Talk about how the blackphone runs a forked version of Android and has access to less apps than blackberry 10 devices, talk about the lack of a productivity focus in the software (suggest that the blackphone discards one of blackberry's key objectives which is to make software that makes you more productive in: the name of an insane level of security that goes way beyond the level of security any consumer might need), talk about the difference in the form factor and the benefits of a hardware keyboard, finally talk about the consumer focused aspects of the Priv and how the camera and screen quality absolutely slaughter the blackphone. Don't just say, the blackphone is more secure than the Priv. **** that. By the way, did anyone notice that when you type Priv on your passport Priv gets auto capitalized but still has the red 'you spelled this incorrectly' underline?

    Posted via BlackBerry Passport Silver Edition
    Q10Bold likes this.
    10-10-15 08:55 AM
  18. cgk's Avatar
    For someone that seemingly is dead set at not being interested in another BB, he sure hangs out here a lot LOL, All he has to say are negatives, and yet he's here continuously predicting the demise of BB. I know if I have no interest in a product or brand name anymore, I sure as heck wouldn't be hanging around these forums any longer, unless of course I don't have a life, or he really is still really interested but just wants to make it look like he's not. LOL

    With all the doomsday predictions over the last several years, BB was suppose to be gone long ago, but their still here and still in business, but of course CGK called it - LMAO and will LMAO even more when he is once again proven wrong.
    Excellent - I have saved the post - want to predict when the next bb10 device is coming out? The nearest quarter will be fine - you will be able to laugh at me when you get it right

    Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk
    10-10-15 09:55 AM
  19. cgk's Avatar
    Here is the thing, if you are going to mention the strength of the blackphone over BlackBerry's Priv then you need to also mention why consumers should be more interested in the Priv than the blackphone. Talk about how the blackphone runs a forked version of Android and has access to less apps than blackberry 10 devices, talk about the lack of a productivity focus in the software (suggest that the blackphone discards one of blackberry's key objectives which is to make software that makes you more productive in: the name of an insane level of security that goes way beyond the level of security any consumer might need), talk about the difference in the form factor and the benefits of a hardware keyboard, finally talk about the consumer focused aspects of the Priv and how the camera and screen quality absolutely slaughter the blackphone. Don't just say, the blackphone is more secure than the Priv. **** that. By the way, did anyone notice that when you type Priv on your passport Priv gets auto capitalized but still has the red 'you spelled this incorrectly' underline?

    Posted via BlackBerry Passport Silver Edition
    I don't think the black phone does run forked android? The first one did but they now seem to be running modified android which is still compliant with google's whims - admittedly black phone are a bit vague on this.

    Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk
    10-10-15 10:00 AM
  20. skibnik's Avatar
    god it gets worse:


    Chen: We're probably the same level as Samsung's Knox. The only other commercial phone that can say they have the same or better than us is maybe the BlackPhone.

    My god.

    So to summarize - outside of hardcore keyboard fans, the slim competitive advantage this phone might have is security and before launch you have the CEO saying:

    * it might be as good as a samsung
    * Here's hoping its secure but who can say
    * Man that Blackphone looks like a good option if you want to be REALLY secure.
    To understand what Chen said in that interview you have to know the context of what he was speaking about before jumping to conclusions like everyone in the media has. Blackberry is held to a certain some would say unfair expectation when it comes to security, the vultures are circling waiting until the day(hopefully it will never come) that a security flaw is found in one of Blackberry's products. On that day you can take it to the bank that the media would take extreme pleasure in reporting this and blowing it up into epic proportions. So if if Chen claimed that the Priv was 100% hack or root proof and it did get hacked and/or rooted it would be a PR nightmare would you not agree?
    Look at what happened to Blackphone the CEO made grandiose claims of being superior and better than Blackberry and it was rooted in a matter of a few minutes and made the CEO look like a fool.

    Problem is the public is not used to being spoken to bluntly like Chen did so of course the spin doctors have a field day.
    10-10-15 11:32 AM
  21. crucial bbq's Avatar
    I'm beginning to think those critical of Chen's public speaking want a CEO that will tell them that what they're buying is the "best", "magical", "amazing", etc. whether it's true or not.

    To me, Chen is comparing the PRIV to devices people will be comparing it with anyway. When I say "people", I'm talking about the Enterprise customers Chen wants, not the average consumer, who currently has not shown any interest in privacy/security. Sure, the average consumer "wants" privacy/security, but not enough to give up conveniences.

    The PRIV serves three purposes at this point: 1. keep hardware revenue going until software/services can take over, 2. provide a "premiere" platform for BlackBerry's security services, 3. sales to some consumers, who want features unique to the PRIV, whether that be some better privacy/security, keyboard, Google Play apps, etc.
    Those most critical simply feel entitled. They (including myself) are amongst the smallest, if not the smallest, commercial demographic yet feel owed by BlackBerry continued service (new handsets, new BB10 OS, etc.). If they were to step back and look at ourselves from a wider perspective they'd quickly realize just how minuscule we truly are in the grand scheme of global sales. To be honest, our money is rather insignificant to the larger picture/revenues.

    Now while I agree that BB10 is the best and that BlackBerry has done a poor job of promoting that, and that maybe if they really got their act together and pimped BB10 like no other, we might see some movement.

    But that is not the reality. One of the things that made RIM so profitable was not because BBs were the best, but because at the height of popularity many around the world still did not have access to unlimited SMS. This was also a time when feature phones/messaging phones were still big sellers. BBM solved that by not going through data/SMS packages. Instead, BBM went through BIS. And as many of us remember, that came with with a $10 fee on top of what-ever data/minutes/text plans we already had/were paying for.

    BIS is pretty much all but gone these days and with it all of that revenue. BlackBerry would be nuts to attempt a "BIS12", so the next logical solution is to sell subscriptions of BES12 to help recoup those losses.

    I think you are underestimating the average consumer. The average may not "want" privacy but they surely do expect security. They expect that when they make a banking transaction or online purchase their info would not be hacked/stolen or their identities compromised. Granted, they unknowingly keep themselves wide open out in the wild but they really can't be to blame. I mean, if you were to use a banking app would not expect that app to be secured out of the box? Now, I know better, and you know better, but that is simply the core mindset of the general public: they don't want it because it is already expected in the first place.

    Then again, with all of the security breeches/stolen CC numbers lately around these parts (the U.S.), consumers are starting to become more concerned.

    As to your points #1 - 3; yup, I agree with them all.

    I agree, He doesnt know about HW so he is focusing in what his strenght is :SW, transitioning a company like BB from one to another must be a hard task, harder when you see how the last years every CEO including Chen has failed in a big way in the HW divisin, I dont even know how these guys cant see that they have to rebuild the Brand and that can be only accomplished with excellent products and marketing, and they werent able to deliver, so BB in less than one year will be an only SW company, because for me the Priv will be a flop, it brings nothing new to the Android market, oh wait, the PKB, meh.
    Chen is rebuilding the brand, he is just doing it in a different sector than what we all want (software, not handsets).

    What the average CrackBerry reader does not see is the fact that handsets are only going to be a small part of BlackBerry going forward no matter how successful they may be and with or without Android.

    Excellent - I have saved the post - want to predict when the next bb10 device is coming out? The nearest quarter will be fine - you will be able to laugh at me when you get it right

    Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk
    Q4 of 2016 with leaks beginning shortly after the launch of 10.3.3.X in March. It will be the Passport 2.

    Of course I have no proof of this; it's only speculation.

    I don't think the black phone does run forked android? The first one did but they now seem to be running modified android which is still compliant with google's whims - admittedly black phone are a bit vague on this.

    Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk
    The OS in the BlackPhone is a combination of PrivatOS and Android with PrivatOS itself being a closed (proprietary, not open source) fork of Android. The fact of this, and that they got the Play Store and Android for Work is further proof that both the OHA and Google's "rules" regarding Android are no longer relevant. And as I also have been saying for a while now, the PrivatOS/Android hybrid showcases the future [potential] of a BB10/Android hybrid that I think is the most likely scenario for a BlackBerry/Android OS in the future.

    Samsung, LG, Huawei, ZTE, Sony, all of them, are going to start building their own "OS" soon anyways considering the contributions from these OEMs to the Android source code has been minimal at best as they are saving their big ideas for their own phones/OS when the eventual demise of the OHA finally happens (which is happening as we speak) (OHA members are required to make available all "innovations" to the OS open and free to the overall AOSP; and none want to do this. They would rather keep this code proprietary especially considering the OHA would require them to give that code away for free to any and all who want it).

    The future of Android is going to be "pure" Android and then everyone else. We are going to go back to the early-mid 2000s when each OEM pretty much had their own brand of OS but with the difference this time around being that apps will work across all vendors.

    And cross-platform is something that Chen has been saying all along. It is now what BES12 is. It is now what BBM is. It will be what the "Productivity Suite" is. AtHoc, WatchDox, Good, even QNX with IoT. All of it, cross-platform.
    cbvinh likes this.
    10-10-15 11:44 AM
  22. cgk's Avatar
    To understand what Chen said in that interview you have to know the context of what he was speaking about before jumping to conclusions like everyone in the media has. .
    If you have to clarify the context or rush out a PR release to provide nuance, your communications have failed. nobody remembers the corrections.
    JeepBB and Batibreaker like this.
    10-10-15 11:45 AM
  23. blee4's Avatar
    If BlackBerry is counting on Priv sales to save their hardware business there better be a TON of Android users who would be willing to switch phones for the physical keyboard. I don't see any other competitive advantage that BlackBerry has over the other manufacturers.

    Security/Privacy aren't going to cut most people don't care that their personal information is on the Internet and they are willingly giving it away in exchange for free services like FaceBook, Gmail, Twitter etc...
    Bay 13 likes this.
    10-10-15 03:27 PM
  24. cbvinh's Avatar
    If BlackBerry is counting on Priv sales to save their hardware business there better be a TON of Android users who would be willing to switch phones for the physical keyboard. I don't see any other competitive advantage that BlackBerry has over the other manufacturers.

    Security/Privacy aren't going to cut most people don't care that their personal information is on the Internet and they are willingly giving it away in exchange for free services like FaceBook, Gmail, Twitter etc...
    BlackBerry, under Chen, isn't counting on the PRIV to save the hardware business. They need to sell 5 million units to be profitable (so they've said), but in the meantime, the PRIV will show up as revenue. Revenue makes the company look like it's doing a ton of business, whether that business is profitable or not. PRIV just needs to keep the revenue up until BlackBerry goes software/services.

    5 million units is 0.5% of the number of Android phones sold in 2014, so it's not a TON that needs to be sold.
    10-10-15 04:06 PM
  25. JeepBB's Avatar
    BlackBerry, under Chen, isn't counting on the PRIV to save the hardware business.
    <snip>
    PRIV just needs to keep the revenue up until BlackBerry goes software/services.
    Yup, this is what I think too. The Hardware side is toast either way, only the timing will be different.

    If the Priv sells enough, it'll give Chen the time (aka revenue) to finish the move over to software, at that point hardware is done, and Chen will close it down

    If the Priv doesn't sell, hardware is done, and Chen will close it down... Chen will also need a Plan B real quick if he's to finish the software transition before the cash runs out.

    The likelihood of each scenario probably hinges on the retail price of the Priv. Sensible pricing to build market share probably means more Privs will be sold and hardware might have another year. If the Priv costs the same as Samsung's Edge or Apple's iPhone 6... well, I hope Chen has Plan B ready.

    Interesting times.
    Bay 13 likes this.
    10-10-15 04:34 PM
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