06-03-15 10:01 AM
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  1. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    ...but you and no one else can describe an iOS user that would EVER want to switch to a BB10 full slab device that hasn't done so already.

    At least we all agree that there is absolutely no way that a full-slab BB10 powerhouse device will increase BB10 market share... so logically, they have to concentrate on making devices OTHER than full-slab BB10 powerhouse devices.

    If the only prospective purchasers of a full slab BB10 powerhouse device are current BB10 full slab device users pining for an upgrade, that device has a built-in cap on how many potential customers there are, and that probably numbers in the 5 million or so, probably fewer. So, BlackBerry has to do this but severely limit the number of devices produced and charge a whole lot for them to cover the development costs.
    And to what phone should they have migrated?
    Firesale Z10s maybe (in some enterprises this might actually have been a consideration)?
    Or the completely overpriced Z30, which T.Heins totally ignored and where he didn't even attend the launch event?
    Maybe the Z3?
    I am sure that someone who considers a product like the iPhone, would also be happy with the Z3/Leap (not really actually).

    So...
    To which phone in their product portfolio do you think that an iPhone user could potentially switch?
    Given the fact that its an iOS user, we know that he/she wouldn't want to switch to a physical keyboard in 99.9% of the cases.
    BlackBerry simply has no phone in their product portfolio, that would allow anyone to migrate to the platform, if he/she/it doesn't have BlackBerry phones already.

    You can therefore be pretty sure, that no one agrees with you, if he/she has a basic understanding of current consumer preferences.
    To say that a flagship BB10 device has less chances to grow BlackBerry's marketshare than a BB10 keyboard device, is contradicting 99.9% of the market. And BlackBerry already has the last 0.1%....

    Remerber the Q10?
    CB die hards: "Pent up demand for a keyboard phone is huge, tools not toys, that phone will show the stupid unproductive iSheep that BlackBerry is back!
    (none of that happened of course)

    Then came the Classic....
    CB die hards: "Pent up demand for the toolbelt is huuuuuuuuuuuuge. The Classic will get all the BBOS users on board! Tools not toys! Pent up demand is surely there!"
    (same as with the Q10, none of that happened)

    Maybe the Passport?
    "It's so innovative! Tools not toys! Finally a no compromise phablet with a keyboard that makes you more productive. iOS users will love it. The medical field will love it. Engineers will adore it. BlackBerry will sell 10s of millions of that phone because it is so innovative and great."
    (as per usual, nothing happened)

    The Slider:
    "Huge pent up demand for such a device!!! No compromise! A slider is exactly what the all touch crowd wanted for years! It's a game changer for BlackBerry! It will attract other platform users, because.... Because it has a keyboard! And pent up demand. Never forget the pent-up demand! "
    (of course, none of that will happen)

    It's not like you can't see the similarities between all of the arguments in favour of PKB devices and how often they should have saved BB and BB10 already, but never did....
    We know a few things now:

    (ex)BBOS users apparently didn't care for the Q10 and Classic.
    There was obviously no pent up demand. Neither for the toolbelt nor for the keyboards (a few users on here who love their PKB devices do not contradict that observation).
    It's also obvious that iOS and Android users won't be "converted" to a PKB.
    Neither in the high-end (Passport) nor in the low-end (Classic). There is simply is no demand there.

    So, without something like a miracle...
    Why exactly should the slider change that?
    Once again because of pent up demand?
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 05-27-15 at 07:33 AM.
    05-27-15 07:12 AM
  2. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Given Samsung's chummy relationship with BlackBerry, there's no reason to believe they'd work on their own version of a pkb phone.

    All things being equal, I doubt they'd even consider a slider phone if it weren't for their relationship with BlackBerry actually. The only way I see them taking a chance is if it's a collaboration with BlackBerry where the patents for the touch capacitive pkb, and software apis (or whatever) are contributed to the device on Android. AND, it's Samsung branded obviously.
    This happens in the auto industry all the time. Samsung could build the Android version and BlackBerry builds the BB10 version. Screen and processor and thin components from Samsung and slider mechanism and keyboard from BlackBerry. Camera from Samsung.

    I would love a collaboration phone.

    Posted via CB10
    05-27-15 07:31 AM
  3. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    In the Enterprise I mentioned, people seem to be choosing all touch over PKB, and like them. They are choosing them because that is what they like due to being what they use on the consumer side. If they want to grow out from Enterprise into consumers like they did before, then they need to have compelling devices for people to want both in Enterprise and consumers. They will be competing against the iPhone in both Enterprise and consumer space.

    Posted via Z30
    Ok, I see what you're saying, thanks for clarifying. Well the trend to iPhone in enterprise has been ongoing now for years from my perspective. I agree that the vast majority will opt for the candybar all touch over traditional pkb phones with a smaller screen.

    I still see potential with touch capacitive pkb, trackpad and actions / shortcuts personally. So the slider, and/or passport slider are worth exploring imho. But people have to be presented with a use case scenario that shows the advantages in order to have a hope of gaining traction.

    If they don't push the advantages then sales will likely be minimal and restricted to the hardcore fanbase.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    05-27-15 07:38 AM
  4. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    This happens in the auto industry all the time. Samsung could build the Android version and BlackBerry builds the BB10 version. Screen and processor and thin components from Samsung and slider mechanism and keyboard from BlackBerry. Camera from Samsung.

    I would love a collaboration phone.

    Posted via CB10
    Me too! Put Samsung's logo on it since they don’t have the reputation issues but take everything good about BlackBerry inside as well.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    05-27-15 09:14 AM
  5. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Many disagree with such a statement.

    But if they make it, the only way it would succeed is if they actually tell people about it. Sadly, BlackBerry's bull headed refusal to advertise would be the reason it would fail.
    Sure, people disagree, but no one can articulate a plausible user profile or reasoning for a significant number of iOS or Android users choosing to purchase a full-slab BB device. Classic, Passport, and Slider, sure: because those devices offer SOMETHING you can not get on Android or iOS, but that user does have to be willing to sacrifice the breadth of apps for whatever a BB10 device gives them... or they accept that they will carry 2 devices. I don't mind if a user's SIM is in their BlackBerry PKB device and they ALSO carry an iPhone or Galaxy Swhatever... but if THEY mind, they better be willing to give up iOS or Android for SOMETHING special about BB10, and, to date, the Hub and VKB have been around since the beginning and it hasn't been enough.

    If the rationale is "when BlackBerry ramps up marketing, THEN we'll see market share gains" then that will happen for the Slider, Passport, and Classic, in addition to whatever full slab device BlackBerry has on offer... marketing won't ONLY benefit a full slab device.

    You know, I would even accept "Look at all the smartphone forums worldwide! lots of nerds buy ANY powerful cool device that comes on the market!"

    That would be SOMETHING, but no one has mentioned it because THAT doesn't bear scrutiny, either. The HTC One M9 and LG G4 etc. aren't going to sell in numbers that make HTC and LG declare "we have turned a corner, we now expect quarter after quarter increases in market share" because even if there is this "buy anything" segment, there aren't enough of them to sustain growth.

    Posted via CB10
    05-27-15 11:15 AM
  6. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Sure, people disagree, but no one can articulate a plausible user profile or reasoning for a significant number of iOS or Android users choosing to purchase a full-slab BB device. Classic, Passport, and Slider, sure: because those devices offer SOMETHING you can not get on Android or iOS, but that user does have to be willing to sacrifice the breadth of apps for whatever a BB10 device gives them... or they accept that they will carry 2 devices. I don't mind if a user's SIM is in their BlackBerry PKB device and they ALSO carry an iPhone or Galaxy Swhatever... but if THEY mind, they better be willing to give up iOS or Android for SOMETHING special about BB10, and, to date, the Hub and VKB have been around since the beginning and it hasn't been enough.

    If the rationale is "when BlackBerry ramps up marketing, THEN we'll see market share gains" then that will happen for the Slider, Passport, and Classic, in addition to whatever full slab device BlackBerry has on offer... marketing won't ONLY benefit a full slab device.

    You know, I would even accept "Look at all the smartphone forums worldwide! lots of nerds buy ANY powerful cool device that comes on the market!"

    That would be SOMETHING, but no one has mentioned it because THAT doesn't bear scrutiny, either. The HTC One M9 and LG G4 etc. aren't going to sell in numbers that make HTC and LG declare "we have turned a corner, we now expect quarter after quarter increases in market share" because even if there is this "buy anything" segment, there aren't enough of them to sustain growth.

    Posted via CB10
    You do understand that this reasoning goes in both directions, as I have posted above?

    Your only argument is a supposed pent-up demand for PKB devices, that has never materialised itself.
    We also know that the Z10 is the most sold BB10 device until today.

    Nothing, exactly no single metric I know of, suggests that there is a pent-up demand for keyboard devices.
    If the demand for the keyboard would be there, BlackBerry's sales should have risen since BB10's inception (Q per Q intervals compared to the year before. BlackBerry is selling less phones Q over Q).
    It simply is not the case.

    Where is your data to support the claim that there is a pent-up demand for a physical keyboard device (no matter if Passport like, or Slider like)?
    05-27-15 11:53 AM
  7. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    Maybe the Passport?
    "It's so innovative! Tools not toys! Finally a no compromise phablet with a keyboard that makes you more productive. iOS users will love it. The medical field will love it. Engineers will adore it. BlackBerry will sell 10s of millions of that phone because it is so innovative and great."
    (as per usual, nothing happened)
    Hey now, don't be making fun of the beautiful Passport or I'm gonna have to come over there and hit you with one of the square corners!

    I think it's mostly negative brand association from past mistakes. Which led to poor sales which led to poor developer support which led to fewer apps which turned people off which led to lower sales...

    Put aside the obvious problems, it's a good OS so that's the crazy thing.

    No idea how they can fix it though other than to grow software as quickly as possible and keep handsets as a loss leader for the moment servicing mainly a small segment of enterprise that requires super locked down phones and consumers who go looking for BlackBerry. And maybe see if they can convince Samsung to collaborate on an Android slider?

    Chen is pushing hard on releasing to the carriers now with Classic and the Leap. If there's been a rebound in numbers we'll see it next quarterly earnings report.

    Hopefully they can stay in the game, I genuinely like BB10 and would hate to see it disappear.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    05-27-15 03:08 PM
  8. RyanGermann's Avatar
    At risk of feeding the beast as it were...

    To which phone in their product portfolio do you think that an iPhone user could potentially switch?
    ahem... I have to clear my throat before I scream real loud:

    THAT'S THE POINT, THERE IS NO IPHONE USER GOING TO SWITCH TO A BB10 FULL SLAB DEVICE THAT WOULD NOT BE SATISFIED WITH THE Z30, THEY GET NOTHING FOR SWITCHING TO ANY BB10 FULL SLAB DEVICE NO MATTER HOW POWERFUL IT IS... IF THEY ARE EVEN CONSIDERING A SWITCH IT IS BECAUSE THERE IS SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG WITH IPHONE *AND* ANDROID IN THEIR OPINION, AND THE Z30 IS A PLENTY GOOD DEVICE FOR *ANYONE* SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING SWITCHING TO BB10, WHICH MEANS A Z30 SUCCESSOR DOES NOT ADD ANYTHING CREDIBLE TO THE BB10 VALUE PROPOSITION THAT THE Z30 DOESN'T ALREADY SUPPLY. NO IPHONE USER IS SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING SWITCHING NOT TO ANDROID BUT ONLY CONSIDERING BB10 BUT RULING BB10 OUT BECAUSE THE Z30 HARDWARE IS 'INADEQUATE'.

    Describing what is WRONG with the current BB10 lineup does NOTHING to articulate the profile of this mythical iPhone user contemplating switching to BB10 in the first place IF THEY ARE NOT SATISFIED WITH THE Z30.

    Any sales figures for Passport and Classic are speculative. Wait 'til quarterly earnings. Your speculation may turn out to be right, but for now, it's just speculation.

    The Passport can not be considered a no-compromise device: keyboard is not familiar 4-row BlackBerry PKB, square screen, requires two hands for most everything. There are lots of great things about it, but so far there is no 'no compromises' BB10 device. I'll say it again: portrait slider WITH toolbelt in various sizes would provide the best coverage for all, but no single device can be 'no compromises'.

    How many devices and component combinations would it take for every BB10 user to get a 'no compromises' experience: PKB or not, toolbelt or not, huge battery or thin, 4.5" or 5" or 5.5" screens? Price vs. power? so many variables maybe 20 devices might cover all the bases, but that's certainly not in the cards.

    BlackBerry should recast the innards of the mostly-based-on-third-party-components-available-for-use-by-BlackBerry 'HTC One M9' as their full slab 2560 x 1440 device. The Passport is sort-of the M8 reorganized, so do the same with the M9's SoC etc. This could be done and dusted, and the hardware and components of that device should do for at least as long as the Z30 has i.e. through the end of 2016. With that timing, it may be the last device they make :-(.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 05-27-15 at 09:14 PM.
    Onkelhans likes this.
    05-27-15 08:32 PM
  9. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Ryan, I think you might be the only person who thinks that a slider has cross platform appeal. No BB10 device has cross platform appeal. Sure some would buy an iPhone or Android with a PKB but not a BlackBerry.

    A better BB10 all touch would not appeal to anyone but BlackBerry all touch fans and almost every Enterprise buyer who might be considering an end to end solution.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by Bbnivende; 05-28-15 at 12:44 AM.
    05-27-15 10:21 PM
  10. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    At risk of feeding the beast as it were...



    ahem... I have to clear my throat before I scream real loud:

    THAT'S THE POINT, THERE IS NO IPHONE USER GOING TO SWITCH TO A BB10 FULL SLAB DEVICE THAT WOULD NOT BE SATISFIED WITH THE Z30, THEY GET NOTHING FOR SWITCHING TO ANY BB10 FULL SLAB DEVICE NO MATTER HOW POWERFUL IT IS... IF THEY ARE EVEN CONSIDERING A SWITCH IT IS BECAUSE THERE IS SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG WITH IPHONE *AND* ANDROID IN THEIR OPINION, AND THE Z30 IS A PLENTY GOOD DEVICE FOR *ANYONE* SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING SWITCHING TO BB10, WHICH MEANS A Z30 SUCCESSOR DOES NOT ADD ANYTHING CREDIBLE TO THE BB10 VALUE PROPOSITION THAT THE Z30 DOESN'T ALREADY SUPPLY. NO IPHONE USER IS SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING SWITCHING NOT TO ANDROID BUT ONLY CONSIDERING BB10 BUT RULING BB10 OUT BECAUSE THE Z30 HARDWARE IS 'INADEQUATE'.

    Describing what is WRONG with the current BB10 lineup does NOTHING to articulate the profile of this mythical iPhone user contemplating switching to BB10 in the first place IF THEY ARE NOT SATISFIED WITH THE Z30.

    Any sales figures for Passport and Classic are speculative. Wait 'til quarterly earnings. Your speculation may turn out to be right, but for now, it's just speculation.

    The Passport can not be considered a no-compromise device: keyboard is not familiar 4-row BlackBerry PKB, square screen, requires two hands for most everything. There are lots of great things about it, but so far there is no 'no compromises' BB10 device. I'll say it again: portrait slider WITH toolbelt in various sizes would provide the best coverage for all, but no single device can be 'no compromises'.

    How many devices and component combinations would it take for every BB10 user to get a 'no compromises' experience: PKB or not, toolbelt or not, huge battery or thin, 4.5" or 5" or 5.5" screens? Price vs. power? so many variables maybe 20 devices might cover all the bases, but that's certainly not in the cards.

    BlackBerry should recast the innards of the mostly-based-on-third-party-components-available-for-use-by-BlackBerry 'HTC One M9' as their full slab 2560 x 1440 device. The Passport is sort-of the M8 reorganized, so do the same with the M9's SoC etc. This could be done and dusted, and the hardware and components of that device should do for at least as long as the Z30 has i.e. through the end of 2016. With that timing, it may be the last device they make :-(.
    Few things are of note:
    The Z30 is a no starter for everyone on other platforms.
    It's not even near adequate.
    A consumer or Enterprise user who can spend 600-800$ on a high end phone will not settle for the 4 year old (in terms of specs employed) Z30.

    There are still 3-4 billion non smartphone users out there. Be it because of age, not being interested or economic constraints. Obviously not all of them will buy a smartphone in the next decade, but there's still a pretty big market out there.
    Given all the metrics we have, those will majorly become all touch users.

    The "mythical" user profile of the iPhone user who wants to switch to BB10 is definitely not a mainstream thing. You are correct in asserting, that such a user would also need to be disinterested in Android.
    Everyone who doesn't care a lot about apps and doesn't want Apple's take on the walled garden would fall in this category though.

    Applying your logic to Microsoft, would mean that MS should never have bothered to enter the smartphone market, because nobody would ever switch. IIRC they won the 3rd place though, with an ultra late introduction to the market (brand recognition and Windows/Xbox obviously help in creating Halo effects, but what you are saying is that an iPhone user would only switch to Android and vice versa. This might be correct for the majority, but the sheer existence of WP contradicts your thesis).

    BlackBerry needs the standard portfolio of something between 3-6 "new" devices (with last year's devices being a this year's devices in a lower tier).
    No need for 20.
    The "Standard portfolio" is one device in every segment, for both form factors. Which makes 6 new devices in year 0; and 3 new in year 1.
    Highest similarity possible, concerning the components for the given tier of PKB and Touch devices of course (same GPU/RAM/CPU etc).

    There is also one group of users you are completely ignoring (I did as well), when you say that iOS users don't want to migrate to BB10...
    What about the 2 phone paradigm? (be it because of boredom or professional needs).
    Now, I already hear you saying that the Classic/Passport are the prime examples of phones that might attract that crowd...
    Sadly for BlackBerry, there are more people out there running around with 2 touch phones, than there are with one phone of each form factor.
    Those people would obviously need a touchscreen device as well.

    Not to forget that BlackBerry is a few months away of losing their all touch buyers.
    If Chen doesn't have some plans for this crowd (no, the Z30 and Leap are not adequate devices), the quarterly reports after the next iPhone launch will be brutal.

    I wholeheartedly agree with your last point though, and I appreciate it, that you want to ask Chen the tough questions.
    I've long sold my BBRY shares and never was a big buyer (therefore don't have an axe to grind), but how the shareholders have been "happy" with the non-information BlackBerry puts out every quarter, is a riddle to me.
    05-28-15 03:27 AM
  11. RyanGermann's Avatar
    MX, You put so much effort into these lengthy posts to address points "logically" but you often consider specific points out of the larger contexts. It is what makes addressing your 'arguments' wholly pointless and frustrating. I'll do this ONE TIME so maybe you will understand. You do know how to get your posts up voted, I'll give you that, but that just makes me sad for other reasons.

    This needs to be said.

    Quick recap: We are talking about the impact BB PRIORITIZING a full touch powerhouse device would have on BB10 marketshare gains i.e. enticing iOS or Android users to BB10. At least that is what I'M talking about.

    The Z30 is a no starter for everyone on other platforms.
    It's not even near adequate.
    Hogwash. The z30 is great. People considering BB10 for the OS will check out what is available or ask here and everyone will tell them it is spectacular. Anyone who would rule out the z30 is not serious about adopting BB10 at all, period, full stop.

    A consumer or Enterprise user who can spend 600-800$ on a high end phone will not settle for the 4 year old (in terms of specs employed) Z30.
    If they're actually considering BB10 at all, they'll examine the devices and see the z30 is excellent. No one will seriously consider bb10 and just say 'forget the whole idea' without trying the devices. there is no 'seriously considering BB10 and casually dismissive of the z30' human being on this planet.

    There are still 3-4 billion non smartphone users out there. Be it because of age, not being interested or economic constraints.
    Age? not sure I get that, so let's cast the groups as 'interested but poor' and 'not interested for some reason'.

    Interested but poor isn't after a POWERFUL top tier flagship, they are POOR! Please at least learn to keep your OWN points in mind when you post the next one. That's what I mean by 'maddening'. Do you have that neurological condition like that guy from 'Memento'?

    Given all the metrics we have, those will majorly become all touch users.
    That's fair... but they're POOR! They want the Z3, not a powerhouse flagship.

    Everyone who doesn't care a lot about apps and doesn't want Apple's take on the walled garden would fall in this category though.
    No, they would not... but because you use pronouns I don't know if this point is connected to some other point i.e. these 'interested but poor' people or meant to talk about all people, it's hard to tell.

    Applying your logic to Microsoft, would mean that MS should never have bothered to enter the smartphone market, because nobody would ever switch.
    WTF. No, it doesn't. It's your Momento condition again, isn't it. We are talking specifically about a complex issue: someone dissatisfied for one reason or another with BOTH Android and iOS looking for an alternative. Both BB10 and WP are excellent just as iOS and Android, but both BB10 and WP lack the app ecosystem that I concede is important for the MAJORITY of smartphone users. WP is excellent and supports MS's broad consumer-facing strategy. When mobile devices are as powerful as full desktop PC's (some say they already are) there will still be multiple purpose-built form factors that MS will be able to integrate spectacularly: WP and Windows desktop and Xbox get closer and closer in UX and functionality: what a desktop user knows about windows could be carried to their handheld and 'livingroom': Windows 8 UX was a heavy handed forcible shove to customers, where 8.1 backed off a little (too little) but hopefully windows 10 will coax users into the future rather than forcing them at gunpoint. The potential for a seamless experience is exciting and IN PROGRESS TODAY. iOS and OSX are still miles apart, and anyone buying into the Chromebook nonsense is an early adopter paying-for-betas-sucker of the tallest order. So, Microsoft absolutely SHOULD be doing this, and they WILL see market share gains but they're in it for the long multi-form-factor haul, not short term handset sales to hipsters.

    IIRC they won the 3rd place though, with an ultra late introduction to the market (brand recognition and Windows/Xbox obviously help in creating Halo effects, but what you are saying is that an iPhone user would only switch to Android and vice versa.
    WTF again. WP share gain is predominantly at the low end and in emerging markets, unless you have data to the contrary. If apple put out a $300 iPhone 4 that could run the latest version of iOS the low end would FLEE to iOS. Apple has that trump card in their back pocket if they ever decide to CRUSH all other vendors. But right now, Apple is exclusively high end, unless you count all the iPhone 3GS and 4 devices available used for $200.

    This might be correct for the majority, but the sheer existence of WP contradicts your thesis).
    Again, wrong conclusion made on putting words in my 'mouth', taking things out of context and I believe purposely not considering well known facts that contradict your immediate point.

    There is also one group of users you are completely ignoring (I did as well), when you say that iOS users don't want to migrate to BB10...
    No, I don't say that. Stop saying what I say when I never said that. You take one point of a three point condition and ramble on refuting on point in isolation for pages. For pete's sake, keep it together.

    iOS users DO want to migrate to BB10. Those who DO will NOT rule out BB10 because the Z30 'isn't powerful enough'. That is my point. I will now point out how you are making straw man arguments about something I never said.

    What about the 2 phone paradigm? (be it because of boredom or professional needs).
    Now, I already hear you saying that the Classic/Passport are the prime examples of phones that might attract that crowd...
    Previously you ruled out the Z30. I never did. All of BB's current devices would be FINE choices for (pay attention this is important) ANYONE SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING A DEVICE THAT RUNS BB10 NOT ANDROID OR IOS.

    Sadly for BlackBerry, there are more people out there running around with 2 touch phones, than there are with one phone of each form factor.
    Irrelevant to MY point, but sure. Let's agree on that and no, I don't want to open the 'why that is' rabbit hole. I'm out after this specific post. After this you can take my not responding to your posts as your case being made so completely and convincingly that I was too embarrassed to respond. I can live with that.

    Not to forget that BlackBerry is a few months away of losing their all touch buyers.
    Hogwash, again, too complex to 'discuss' with MementoMan.

    If Chen doesn't have some plans for this crowd (no, the Z30 and Leap are not adequate devices), the quarterly reports after the next iPhone launch will be brutal.
    The z30 is more than adequate in the context of MY point, not yours, but I don't know what it is, don't care to know: i'm just here to edify and move on. Like 'The Littlest Hobo'. Or Homo. Both apply.

    They would be brutal in either case. Revenue is not the same as market share gains. Bringing non BB10 users to BB10 is by definition about both. A 'worthy z30 successor' would bring revenue gains but not significant market share gains for the reasons stated above that shoildn't NEED To be repeated every paragraph, birut if you've been taking your Polaroids like your doctor suggested, maybe it won't be necessary. A powerful one-quarter-revenue-spike, with current BB10 users upgrading en masse (which I am on the record as saying would be good for BlackBerry, most pointedly in my 'Open Letter to John Chen' post) , but such a device would not do much if anything to grow BB10 market share.

    Market share gains lead to sustainable revenue, and market share gains come from drawing current smartphone users to BB10 (which requires more than powerful devices, again, too complex to define here) and being different from iOS and Android and BETTER in ways that iOS and Android are unable to be OR strategically are not interested to be. BB10 isn't going to be better at Android and iOS at the ONE thing they're already better than BB10 at: APPS. Oh, and having a physical home button that people seem to need, but the latter problem is easily solved.

    MX, if you feel this was a personal attack... well, how could it not be. I have to admit I have added you to my ignore list (but CB10 doesn't adequately protect me) BECAUSE your 'techniques' in making out-of-context erroneous counter-arguments is maddening: I don't want to fall prey to temptation and respond.

    The 'ignore' list is how one avoids pointless circular arguments that do nothing productive, well, not for me, not for BlackBerry, not for CrackBerry. You seem to enjoy it though so go right ahead. I certainly hope redlightblinking wasn't 'banned' because he got frustrated responding to one of YOUR irritating posts, because I have to say, they way you make out-of-context counter points DOES border on trolling, whether or not that is PC to say. You're not alone, but as I said before, you're the champ.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 05-28-15 at 09:59 AM.
    Irish Blues likes this.
    05-28-15 09:31 AM
  12. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Few things are of note:
    The Z30 is a no starter for everyone on other platforms.
    It's not even near adequate.
    A consumer or Enterprise user who can spend 600-800$ on a high end phone will not settle for the 4 year old (in terms of specs employed) Z30.

    There are still 3-4 billion non smartphone users out there. Be it because of age, not being interested or economic constraints. Obviously not all of them will buy a smartphone in the next decade, but there's still a pretty big market out there.
    Given all the metrics we have, those will majorly become all touch users.

    The "mythical" user profile of the iPhone user who wants to switch to BB10 is definitely not a mainstream thing. You are correct in asserting, that such a user would also need to be disinterested in Android.
    Everyone who doesn't care a lot about apps and doesn't want Apple's take on the walled garden would fall in this category though.

    Applying your logic to Microsoft, would mean that MS should never have bothered to enter the smartphone market, because nobody would ever switch. IIRC they won the 3rd place though, with an ultra late introduction to the market (brand recognition and Windows/Xbox obviously help in creating Halo effects, but what you are saying is that an iPhone user would only switch to Android and vice versa. This might be correct for the majority, but the sheer existence of WP contradicts your thesis).

    BlackBerry needs the standard portfolio of something between 3-6 "new" devices (with last year's devices being a this year's devices in a lower tier).
    No need for 20.
    The "Standard portfolio" is one device in every segment, for both form factors. Which makes 6 new devices in year 0; and 3 new in year 1.
    Highest similarity possible, concerning the components for the given tier of PKB and Touch devices of course (same GPU/RAM/CPU etc).

    There is also one group of users you are completely ignoring (I did as well), when you say that iOS users don't want to migrate to BB10...
    What about the 2 phone paradigm? (be it because of boredom or professional needs).
    Now, I already hear you saying that the Classic/Passport are the prime examples of phones that might attract that crowd...
    Sadly for BlackBerry, there are more people out there running around with 2 touch phones, than there are with one phone of each form factor.
    Those people would obviously need a touchscreen device as well.

    Not to forget that BlackBerry is a few months away of losing their all touch buyers.
    If Chen doesn't have some plans for this crowd (no, the Z30 and Leap are not adequate devices), the quarterly reports after the next iPhone launch will be brutal.

    I wholeheartedly agree with your last point though, and I appreciate it, that you want to ask Chen the tough questions.
    I've long sold my BBRY shares and never was a big buyer (therefore don't have an axe to grind), but how the shareholders have been "happy" with the non-information BlackBerry puts out every quarter, is a riddle to me.
    Chen has no faith that consumers will buy a high end all touch phone that uses the BB10 OS. He only thinks there is a market for BlackBerry PKB phones and all touch phones to Enterprise needing a higher level of security. The Slider is a way of hedging his bets. He is unwilling to invest the money required to develop a high end all touch.

    I guess that the Leap is a trial balloon. If it sells reasonably well, he might invest in a better all touch.

    What I would really like to see is the Slider to be made by Samsung as a device that can be manufactured as either an Android or BlackBerry. Regardless, there does not appear to be any new all touch devices until the Slider comes out.


    Edit :

    I personally do not know any iOS or Android user who would switch over to BlackBerry at this point in time. Maybe in third world countries where BBOS is still popular.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by Bbnivende; 05-28-15 at 10:06 AM.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    05-28-15 09:51 AM
  13. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    MX, You put so much effort into these lengthy posts to address points "logically" but you often consider specific points out of the larger contexts. It is what makes addressing your 'arguments' wholly pointless and frustrating. I'll do this ONE TIME so maybe you will understand. You do know how to get your posts up voted, I'll give you that, but that just makes me sad for other reasons.

    This needs to be said.

    Quick recap: We are talking about the impact BB PRIORITIZING a full touch powerhouse device would have on BB10 marketshare gains i.e. enticing iOS or Android users to BB10. At least that is what I'M talking about.



    Hogwash. The z30 is great. People considering BB10 for the OS will check out what is available or ask here and everyone will tell them it is spectacular. Anyone who would rule out the z30 is not serious about adopting BB10 at all, period, full stop.



    If they're actually considering BB10 at all, they'll examine the devices and see the z30 is excellent. No one will seriously consider bb10 and just say 'forget the whole idea' without trying the devices. there is no 'seriously considering BB10 and casually dismissive of the z30' human being on this planet.



    Age? not sure I get that, so let's cast the groups as 'interested but poor' and 'not interested for some reason'.

    Interested but poor isn't after a POWERFUL top tier flagship, they are POOR! Please at least learn to keep your OWN points in mind when you post the next one. That's what I mean by 'maddening'. Do you have that neurological condition like that guy from 'Memento'?



    That's fair... but they're POOR! They want the Z3, not a powerhouse flagship.



    No, they would not... but because you use pronouns I don't know if this point is connected to some other point i.e. these 'interested but poor' people or meant to talk about all people, it's hard to tell.



    WTF. No, it doesn't. It's your Momento condition again, isn't it. We are talking specifically about a complex issue: someone dissatisfied for one reason or another with BOTH Android and iOS looking for an alternative. Both BB10 and WP are excellent just as iOS and Android, but both BB10 and WP lack the app ecosystem that I concede is important for the MAJORITY of smartphone users. WP is excellent and supports MS's broad consumer-facing strategy. When mobile devices are as powerful as full desktop PC's (some say they already are) there will still be multiple purpose-built form factors that MS will be able to integrate spectacularly: WP and Windows desktop and Xbox get closet and closer in UX and functionality: the potential for a seamless experience is exciting and IN PROGRESS TODAY. iOS and OSX are still miles apart, and anyone buying into the Chromebook nonsense is an early adopter paying-for-betas-sucker of the talest order. So, Microsoft absolutely SHOULD be doing this, and they WILL see market share gains.



    WTF again. WP share gain is predominantly at the low end and in emerging markets, unless you have data to the contrary. If apple put out a $300 iPhone 4 that could run the latest version of iOS the low end would FLEE to iOS. Apple has that trump card in their back pocket if they ever decide to CRUSH all other vendors. But right now, Apple is exclusively high end, unless you count all the iPhone 3GS and 4 devices available used for $200.



    Again, wrong conclusion made on putting words in my 'mouth', taking things out of context and I believe purposely not considering well known facts that contradict your immediate point.



    No, I don't say that. Stop saying what I say when I never said that. You take one point of a three point condition and ramble on refuting on point in isolation for pages. For pete's sake, keep it together.

    iOS users DO want to migrate to BB10. Those who DO will NOT rule out BB10 because the Z30 'isn't powerful enough'. That is my point. I will now point out how you are making straw man arguments about something I never said.



    Previously you ruled out the Z30. I never did. All of BB's current devices would be FINE choices for (pay attention this is important) ANYONE SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING A DEVICE THAT RUNS BB10 NOT ANDROID OR IOS.



    Irrelevant to MY point, but sure. Let's agree on that and no, I don't want to open the 'why that is' rabbit hole. I'm out after this specific post. After this you can take my not responding to your posts as your case being made so completely and convincingly that I was to embarrassed to respond. I can live with that.



    Hogwash, again, too complex to 'discuss' with MementoMan.



    They would be brutal in either case. Revenue is not the same as market share gains. a 'worthy z30 successor' would bring a one-quarter-revenue-spike, with current BB10 users upgrading en masse, but do nothing to grow BB10 market share. Market share gains lead to sustainable revenue, and market share gains come from being different from iOS and Android and BETTER in ways that iOS and Android are unable to be OR strategically are not interested to be.

    MX, if you feel this was a personal attack... well, how could it not be. I have to admit I have added you to my ignore list (but CB10 dosn't adequately protect me) BECAUSE of your 'techniques' in making out-of-context erroneous counter-arguments is maddening: the 'ignore' list is how one avoids pointless circular arguments that do nothing productive, well, not for me, not for BlackBerry, not for CrackBerry. You seem to enjoy it though so go right ahead. I certainly hope redlightblinking wasn't 'banned' because he got frustrated responding to one of YOUR irritating posts, because I have to say, they way you make out-of-context counter points DOES border on trolling, whether or not that is PC to say.

    Posted via CB10
    Nah, I stay away from Redblinkinglight as much as I can.
    He usually gets me banned, not the other way round, because his unlogical arguments get the best of me.

    Personal attack?
    You think your post was a personal attack?
    Please, try harder.

    Concerning the rest:
    I won't say much, because you honestly believe that the Z30 is an adequate device, and no matter what anybody says, you apparently won't even think about the possibility that this is not the case.
    This is a fundamental issue, because I know (given the market trends) that none of BlackBerry's current devices are adequate.

    Anyhow, when I talked about age, I obviously meant the younger generation being too young to afford a smartphone.

    I said that there are still 3-4 billion people in total, not having a smartphone. Then I proceeded to give some reasons for that.
    It's implied that not all of those 4 billion are even in the market for a smartphone.
    Which means that I implied a smaller number than 4 billion being available for the smartphone market in the future.

    I think that this is where you got confused concerning price/being poor.
    Not all of those remaining 4 billion people are poor.
    I never said nor implied that. This was solely your interpretation.

    Not to forget...
    Who buys a Leap for 300$, if he can get the Huawei 6S Cliff for 300$, with the performance of a 700$ Samsung S6 Edge?

    That's a logical fallacy on your part once again, simply because you fail to realise that BlackBerry's product portfolio is completely inadequate outside of the Passport.
    (And that one only counts because it's innovative)

    As long as you want to believe that BlackBerry's product portfolio isn't the worst in the industry currently, it probably doesn't matter what anybody tells you.

    You made me laugh when you talked about sustained growth and growing marketshare.
    You do know that BlackBerry didn't achieve any of those points, and that it only got worse since the Q10, not better?

    This obviously shows a few things, you simply do not want to accept.
    It tells the story of the physical keyboard.
    It also tells the story of the Z30 fabulously.
    Everybody who might be interested in the OS itself, won't buy the devices because they are bad. Everybody who isn't bothered by the devices, won't buy a BB10 nonetheless, because of the lacking ecosystem.
    (and before you choke on the word "everybody"... It's obviously a hyperbole)

    BlackBerry can't change the ecosystem problem without going Android. It's simply not possible.
    They can fix their atrocious product portfolio though.

    Things to remember:
    As long as you believe that the product portfolio is adequate for buyers, you probably will never fully understand why the devices are failing.

    To conclude:
    I am not talking about one flagship device being the cure.
    One flagship by itself would probably dwarf the sales of the past quarters, but that's not enough.

    I am actually talking about a real product portfolio, and I have said that clearly on more than one occasion.
    The focus on PKB is wrong. Not having a high-end phone is wrong.
    Having the Leap at the current price is wrong. Having launched the Z30 in its current form was wrong.

    Great that you are only talking about 1 phone. A flagship phone.
    I am talking about 4-6 phones, which all need a complete revamping. In all tiers of the market.
    BlackBerry isn't Apple. BlackBerry needs sales in every tier of the market. From 150 to 700$ devices.
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 05-28-15 at 10:09 AM.
    05-28-15 09:55 AM
  14. lnichols's Avatar
    Hogwash. The z30 is great. People considering BB10 for the OS will check out what is available or ask here and everyone will tell them it is spectacular. Anyone who would rule out the z30 is not serious about adopting BB10 at all, period, full stop.

    .......

    If they're actually considering BB10 at all, they'll examine the devices and see the z30 is excellent. No one will seriously consider bb10 and just say 'forget the whole idea' without trying the devices. there is no 'seriously considering BB10 and casually dismissive of the z30' human being on this planet.
    The Z30 is great, but is lacking to be considered a serious contender in the US. First off the US version T-Mobile and AT&T, the STA100-1, was never produced. The STA100-5 which is sold on shopblackberry.com only supports one band of T-Mobile's 3 LTE bands, and none of AT&T 's LTE bands. So the Z30 is not a valid option for many in the US based on LTE support alone. I have good LTE support on T-Mobile in urban areas, but in rural they are deploying LTE in bands the device doesn't support. This alone prevents either carrier from offering the device now which limits it's availability.

    The screen resolution and PPI is far behind other flagship, even when it was launched. They really should have had a 1080 screen as the 720 with lower PPI even prevented many BlackBerry Z10 users from wanting to upgrade to the Z30 until the devices went on sale for sub $300.

    In order for a Z30 to be seriously considered in the US, they would either have to start producing the STA100-1 which they won't do now because they don't have a relationship with the company that manufactured them last time, or release a refreshed device, and if they are refreshing should address the screen resolution and broaden the appeal to both existing Z users and the general market. Doesn't have to be a major overhaul, but an updated SOC, maybe a Snapdragon 600 with Quad Core GPU, same chassis and a 1080 screen or better, and throw in the 3GB of RAM for some gravy.

    Posted via Z30
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    05-28-15 10:03 AM
  15. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Chen has no faith that consumers will buy a high end all touch phone that uses the BB10 OS. He only thinks there is a market for BlackBerry PKB phones and all touch phones to Enterprise needing a higher level of security. The Slider is a way of hedging his bets. He is unwilling to invest the money required to develop a high end all touch.

    I guess that the Leap is a trial balloon. If it sells reasonably well, he might invest in a better all touch.

    What I would really like to see is the Slider to be made by Samsung as a device that can be manufactured as either an Android or BlackBerry. Regardless, there does not appear to be any new all touch devices until the Slider comes out.

    Posted via CB10
    I fully agree with your assertion on what Chen believes.
    But his belief doesn't make sense.
    Their shrinking sales QoQ and YoY clearly show that the PKB is not the solution.

    The Leap is a fleet phone. That's so far away from the likes of iPhones and Samsung Notes/Edges, that I really fail to see how it could be a meaningful metric at the end of the day.

    I also agree with you that there won't be a touch flagship this year.
    If the slider isn't good, or doesn't come out soonish, Ryan might get an early Christmas present and I might leave for iMore.

    I like your last idea!
    I'd love a slider, no matter who makes it.

    Edit:

    Edit :

    I personally do not know any iOS or Android user who would switch over to BlackBerry at this point in time. Maybe in third world countries where BBOS is still popular.

    Posted via CB10
    I know of 6 in my company who switched to iPhones/HTCs because BlackBerry didn't announce a new flagship phone.
    Since I am not a fan of anecdotal evidence, I agree with you and Ryan in the grand scheme of things.

    Android and iOS users wanting to switch are rare. But statistically speaking, they have to exist, and have to be more than the 0.1% BlackBerry currently holds.

    But, following the train of thought that nobody wants to switch and BlackBerry is bleeding users every quarter...
    Are you implying that BlackBerry is basically done for, if they do not continue to shrink BlackBerry?
    For a company with 0.1% marketshare, and an MDM, they are still pretty big to be honest (in terms of employees).
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 05-28-15 at 10:30 AM.
    05-28-15 10:07 AM
  16. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    The Z30 is great, but is lacking to be considered a serious contender in the US. First off the US version T-Mobile and AT&T, the STA100-1, was never produced. The STA100-5 which is sold on shopblackberry.com only supports one band of T-Mobile's 3 LTE bands, and none of AT&T 's LTE bands. So the Z30 is not a valid option for many in the US based on LTE support alone. I have good LTE support on T-Mobile in urban areas, but in rural they are deploying LTE in bands the device doesn't support. This alone prevents either carrier from offering the device now which limits it's availability.

    The screen resolution and PPI is far behind other flagship, even when it was launched. They really should have had a 1080 screen as the 720 with lower PPI even prevented many BlackBerry Z10 users from wanting to upgrade to the Z30 until the devices went on sale for sub $300.

    In order for a Z30 to be seriously considered in the US, they would either have to start producing the STA100-1 which they won't do now because they don't have a relationship with the company that manufactured them last time, or release a refreshed device, and if they are refreshing should address the screen resolution and broaden the appeal to both existing Z users and the general market. Doesn't have to be a major overhaul, but an updated SOC, maybe a Snapdragon 600 with Quad Core GPU, same chassis and a 1080 screen or better, and throw in the 3GB of RAM for some gravy.

    Posted via Z30
    And the hypothetical refresh would be the mid-range device.
    It would actually make sense.

    But BlackBerry must have warehouses full of that Z10 SoC and that Z30 display.
    So they decided to make a Z30 refresh, while making the phone even worse. Gotta love BlackBerry.
    05-28-15 10:20 AM
  17. tinochiko's Avatar
    No they at one point had 90 Million plus BlackBerry users, they are now in the 40 Million range and dropping.

    Posted via Z30
    Not according to this..
    RBC Halves BlackBerry's 1Q Handset-Sales View -- Market Talk-img_20150528_231613.png

    http://berryflow.com/2015/03/believe-in-blackberry/

    Check Out TechCraze
    web99 likes this.
    05-28-15 05:18 PM
  18. ccbs's Avatar
    Not according to this..
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20150528_231613.png 
Views:	203 
Size:	158.2 KB 
ID:	354975

    Believe In BlackBerry

    Check Out TechCraze
    LOL. Your statement was that BBRY has more customer now than ever before, and your proof is just an article comparing now to 2008.
    Did 2011 and 2012 ever exist?

    http://royal.pingdom.com/wp-content/...9/rim.0031.jpg
    MarsupilamiX and mornhavon like this.
    05-28-15 05:33 PM
  19. lnichols's Avatar
    This doesn't invalidate what I said. Clearly in 2008 they didn't have the 90 Million users. They peeked out in quarterly sale Q4 2010 at over 14 Million, then the declining sales quarters started. Below is a chart of quarterly device sales. They were still growing rapidly through about 2012, then started dropping. So yes they have more customers now than in 2008, but they had more in 2010 through 2012 when they were selling twice as many devices per quarter as in 2008. They are selling fewer phones per quarter now then they were in 2007 too. They didn't start declining in total users until around 2012 or 2013 when they hit the peek.



    Posted via Z30
    Attachment 355005
    Attached Thumbnails RBC Halves BlackBerry's 1Q Handset-Sales View -- Market Talk-img_20150527_142553.png  
    Last edited by lnichols; 05-28-15 at 08:39 PM.
    mornhavon likes this.
    05-28-15 05:41 PM
  20. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I fully agree with your assertion on what Chen believes.
    But his belief doesn't make sense.
    Their shrinking sales QoQ and YoY clearly show that the PKB is not the solution.

    The Leap is a fleet phone. That's so far away from the likes of iPhones and Samsung Notes/Edges, that I really fail to see how it could be a meaningful metric at the end of the day.

    I also agree with you that there won't be a touch flagship this year.
    If the slider isn't good, or doesn't come out soonish, Ryan might get an early Christmas present and I might leave for iMore.

    I like your last idea!
    I'd love a slider, no matter who makes it.

    Edit:



    I know of 6 in my company who switched to iPhones/HTCs because BlackBerry didn't announce a new flagship phone.
    Since I am not a fan of anecdotal evidence, I agree with you and Ryan in the grand scheme of things.

    Android and iOS users wanting to switch are rare. But statistically speaking, they have to exist, and have to be more than the 0.1% BlackBerry currently holds.

    But, following the train of thought that nobody wants to switch and BlackBerry is bleeding users every quarter...
    Are you implying that BlackBerry is basically done for, if they do not continue to shrink BlackBerry?
    For a company with 0.1% marketshare, and an MDM, they are still pretty big to be honest (in terms of employees).
    Yes, BlackBerry will continue to flounder if they treat Enterprise customers like they treat regular consumers. There really is no customer service, the OS updates have caused as many problems as they solved and their PKB's are failing at an alarming rate if CB posters are a reasonable proxy for the market as a whole.

    I am not at all convinced that BlackBerry can make a reliable phone. I would want BlackBerry to resolve the problems with their OS and hardware before adding to their problems. For example, the Leap speaker is a reported problem. Will BlackBerry do anything about this issue ? - Nope.

    I really like BB10 but I am not at all confident about their products. I do not feel the same about purchasing a iPhone. At some point Enterprise may say that they like the security but not the phone and OS and say the problems are greater than the benefits.
    05-28-15 07:00 PM
  21. keithhackneysmullet's Avatar
    RBC Halves BlackBerry's 1Q Handset-Sales View -- Market Talk-img_20150528_205222.png
    RBC Halves BlackBerry's 1Q Handset-Sales View -- Market Talk-img_20150528_205232.png
    RBC Halves BlackBerry's 1Q Handset-Sales View -- Market Talk-img_20150528_205245.png

    Less than half of peak users and dropping like a rock. The smartphone market is growing but BlackBerry users are shrinking.

    Posted via CB10
    techvisor and eyesopen1111 like this.
    05-28-15 07:56 PM
  22. paul360's Avatar
    Hogwash. The z30 is great. People considering BB10 for the OS will check out what is available or ask here and everyone will tell them it is spectacular. Anyone who would rule out the z30 is not serious about adopting BB10 at all, period, full stop.
    If they're actually considering BB10 at all, they'll examine the devices and see the z30 is excellent. No one will seriously consider bb10 and just say 'forget the whole idea' without trying the devices. there is no 'seriously considering BB10 and casually dismissive of the z30' human being on this planet.
    Just to clear things up for you: the Z30 is DATED. It is NOT the kind of device any current iOS user would switch to.

    How can you say "Anyone who would rule out the z30 is not serious about adopting BB10 at all, period, full stop." That is just false. I used to have a Bold 9700 followed by an iPhone 4S - so I enjoy both PKB as well as all-touch phones, and when I decided to switch to BB10 at the beginning of this year, I also ruled out the Z30 for that exact reason of the Z30 just not being worth its price tag anymore.
    06-01-15 03:53 AM
  23. tinochiko's Avatar
    Just to clear things up for you: the Z30 is DATED. It is NOT the kind of device any current iOS user would switch to.

    How can you say "Anyone who would rule out the z30 is not serious about adopting BB10 at all, period, full stop." That is just false. I used to have a Bold 9700 followed by an iPhone 4S - so I enjoy both PKB as well as all-touch phones, and when I decided to switch to BB10 at the beginning of this year, I also ruled out the Z30 for that exact reason of the Z30 just not being worth its price tag anymore.
    I still see people today going around with the iPhone 3!, just because you decided it wasn't worth its price tag doesn't mean other people would, in fact if most other people did then it wouldn't have that price tag anymore!

    Not to say personally I think it is or isn't (or disagree with the rest of your response to the poster you were replying to), I just don't think your initial statement was reasonable to make or accurate.

    Check Out TechCraze
    06-01-15 04:22 AM
  24. paul360's Avatar
    I still see people today going around with the iPhone 3!
    Yea of course, I also still see people using Sony Ericsson flip phones.

    What I meant was, that you can assume that the majority of current iOS users with iPhone 5, 5s, 6 or 6 plus (or even 4/4s) bought those phones because they are easy to use, modern, stylish and fun (also due to their app offering). Those types of people will not see the Z30 as an "excellent" phone as Ryan put it, because the Z30 is neither very up-to-date, nor very "fun" to use (not even talking about apps).

    I'm not saying the Z30 is a bad phone - not by any means - it's a productive phone with a great design - but its just not good enough to convince iOS users to consider switching to BlackBerry.
    techvisor likes this.
    06-01-15 05:17 AM
  25. tinochiko's Avatar
    Yea of course, I also still see people using Sony Ericsson flip phones.

    What I meant was, that you can assume that the majority of current iOS users with iPhone 5, 5s, 6 or 6 plus (or even 4/4s) bought those phones because they are easy to use, modern, stylish and fun (also due to their app offering). Those types of people will not see the Z30 as an "excellent" phone as Ryan put it, because the Z30 is neither very up-to-date, nor very "fun" to use (not even talking about apps).

    I'm not saying the Z30 is a bad phone - not by any means - it's a productive phone with a great design - but its just not good enough to convince iOS users to consider switching to BlackBerry.
    Now I can agree with you although I think those with 5/5s would consider the Z30 if they were committed to having a full touch BlackBerry , since it's pretty much the only decent option although for 6/6s the Passport would be much more appealing, especially since a lot of people miss the keyboard.

    Check Out TechCraze
    06-01-15 05:42 AM
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