06-03-15 10:01 AM
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  1. Bbnivende's Avatar
    There isn't a single BB10 device that is going to sell well until customer confidence is rock solid. Still too much uncertainty surrounding BlackBerry, unfortunately... but it's a catch 22. The devices have to sell in significant quantity to slowly turn those market factors around.

    People want 16 x 9 screens, so I am putting a lot of hope in the Slider in attracting non BB10 users to the platform. The Classic and Passport square screens have limited appeal: IMUO it's not the presence of the PKB, it's the lack of 16 x 9 screen that is the problem with the current flagships, which I hope will be solved with the slider's release.

    The decision to pursue the slider is the absolutely single best idea BlackBerry has had w.r.t. BB10 devices. The worst idea was prior to the BB10 launch when they killed the slider and decided to go all touch and half-baked PKB devices that failed spectacularly, instead of 'owning it' w.r.t. what differentiated BlackBerry devices from the commonplace full-slab devices that are boringly omnipresent. If the BB10 launch was a portrait slider and Classic, I think the landscape would be positively different for BB10. If BB10 kept the best of EVERYTHING from BBOS but added a rock-solid web browser and gaming experience like BB10 can do, things would have been very different... but management at the time were sissies who didn't hold their head high when bullied... instead saying things like "not one line of code is carried over from BBOS...", spitting on BB's legacy pretty much completely. Chen comes in and embraces that legacy, and that IS the only way forward, not trying to BE Apple.

    Ryan, you are assuming that there is some pent up unfulfilled demand for PKB devices. I think that time has passed. It certainly does not help that BlackBerry no longer makes a reliable PKB. BlackBerry needs a Slider more than a Passport but what BlackBerry needs is a well made, high quality ( not so much high spec'd) all touch phone.

    I hope that I am wrong and the new Slider will be cool in the way the Torch was.

    Would it not be really interesting to see the original Milan prototype. It is my understanding that it would have been the last BBOS device but the carriers said no.

    If anyone has real knowledge about the Milan please share.


    Posted via CB10
    05-26-15 01:45 AM
  2. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Ryan, you are assuming that there is some pent up unfulfilled demand for PKB devices.
    I assert that there is pent up demand for a no-compromise device with a 16 x 9 high-quality screen device with a PKB i.e. Slider.

    I think that time has passed.
    I think the opposite: if there are a billion combined active iOS and Android full-slab users, I think up to 10 million of them pine for a physical keyboard but also don't want to give up a nice 16 x 9 screen. When such an option presents itself, some of those people will be interested.

    It certainly does not help that BlackBerry no longer makes a reliable PKB.
    Clearly they have to undo whatever technology changed between the bulletproof PKBS and those that have high failure rates.

    BlackBerry needs a Slider more than a Passport but what BlackBerry needs is a well made, high quality ( not so much high spec'd) all touch phone.
    You're not alone in that opinion, but here's something you could try to be alone in: can YOU be the person who can describe the customer profile of someone who uses Android or iOS, but for some reason is looking to switch platforms... and they have ruled out both Android and iOS for their next platform... and have ruled out a slider form factor... and don't want a PKB... WHO Is this unicorn person that WANTS to switch to BB10 and hasn't already? Is the only reason they haven't switched that they don't like the Z30 enough, but some 'better' full touch device will be enough for them to make the switch? Can you hear the pitch of the questions rising in incredulity? Don't take it personally: If there is little pent up demand for a no-compromise 16 x 9 screen + PKB slider, then I assert there is even LESS demand for a BB10 full slab super phone outside the current BB10 user base who want to upgrade.

    In summary: I believe the Slider will do more to grow BB10 market share than a full touch device will, because there is no credible user profile for a group of people switching to BB10 at this point, having not switched for the Z30.


    I hope that I am wrong and the new Slider will be cool in the way the Torch was.
    The slider will fall short in some ways, if the mock-ups shown are accurate in that there is no toolbelt. If BlackBerry would just stop being ashamed of their legacy they might do better: customers can smell fear. If you're on stage in your underpants and you're embarrassed, people laugh: if you're Madonna, you're a "polarizing pop-culture phenomenon".

    Would it not be really interesting to see the original Milan prototype. It is my understanding that it would have been the last BBOS device but the carriers said no.

    If anyone has real knowledge about the Milan please share.
    I thought it was the first BB10 prototype, not a BBOS device.

    Posted via CB10
    05-26-15 10:09 AM
  3. tinochiko's Avatar
    To balance things out.. BlackBerry has more customers now than it ever had before, it's just growing slower than ever before.. for now..

    Check Out TechCraze
    05-26-15 10:16 AM
  4. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    To balance things out.. BlackBerry has more customers now than it ever had before, it's just growing slower than ever before.. for now..

    Check Out TechCraze
    Can you please explain that?
    Customers as in BES clients or as in smartphone users?

    I am not informed concerning the first one, and the second one is definitely incorrect.
    eyesopen1111 likes this.
    05-26-15 12:14 PM
  5. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    I assert that there is pent up demand for a no-compromise device with a 16 x 9 high-quality screen device with a PKB i.e. Slider.
    Posted via CB10
    And if the slider fails (or never come to the market), will you finally give up on promoting BlackBerry's awful product portfolio?

    Every single device with a PKB was hailed as the new king and saviour of BB.
    None have fulfilled that promise.

    No one, in the whole market place (apart from that one manufacturer in the "others" category with 0.1% marketshare this year) deems the physical keyboard as a worthwhile pastime.
    Not one manufacturer apart from BlackBerry makes those devices.

    Together those manufacturers will have an installed base in the region of 2-3 billions smartphones.
    And no one even thinks about making anything with a physical keyboard.

    Sadly, your personal bias does not let you see things clearly.
    Soon, half of the earth will have a smartphone. If there would be a real market for the physical keyboard, BlackBerry wouldn't be the only manufacturer pursuing that niche within a niche.

    I do love Star Trek references though.
    Hashtags aren't my thing on the other hand. Was it a Charlie Sheen reference?
    I guess even he knows that physical keyboard phones are even less relevant than him nowadays.
    05-26-15 12:23 PM
  6. lnichols's Avatar
    To balance things out.. BlackBerry has more customers now than it ever had before, it's just growing slower than ever before.. for now..

    Check Out TechCraze
    No they at one point had 90 Million plus BlackBerry users, they are now in the 40 Million range and dropping.

    Posted via Z30
    05-26-15 01:16 PM
  7. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    No they at one point had 90 Million plus BlackBerry users, they are now in the 40 Million range and dropping.

    Posted via Z30
    That's why I have been wondering how to understand the statement.

    Maybe they now have 100 million BES customers?
    Maybe the OP meant BBM users?
    I honestly don't know.
    05-26-15 01:23 PM
  8. crackberry_geek's Avatar
    I guess that explains this:

    Attachment 353672
    In a nutshell it sure shows who needs who. To bad it took him over a year to figure it out.

    Posted via CB10
    05-26-15 01:33 PM
  9. tchocky77's Avatar
    I can't see how blackberry continues to make devices into 2016.
    05-26-15 02:10 PM
  10. lnichols's Avatar
    I can't see how blackberry continues to make devices into 2016.
    They will still need them for longer than that for their Government customers, but I could see them totally folding consumer sales. Based in Glorious Chairman Chen's statements and actions of late, I'll probably be moving to iOS or Samsung after the next iPhone launch. Chen and BlackBerry clearly do not value the consumers that bought into BlackBerry 10 like myself. Someone should educate BlackBerry on how poor treatment of customers over a long period of time, will effect all aspects of business eventually, not just the groups you treated poorly. Almost every consumer has a job, and some of those will be people with influence in IT spending and projects that directly impact BlackBerry's target audience.

    Posted via Z30
    crackberry_geek likes this.
    05-26-15 02:47 PM
  11. crackberry_geek's Avatar
    They will still need them for longer than that for their Government customers, but I could see them totally folding consumer sales. Based in Glorious Chairman Chen's statements and actions of late, I'll probably be moving to iOS or Samsung after the next iPhone launch. Chen and BlackBerry clearly do not value the consumers that bought into BlackBerry 10 like myself. Someone should educate BlackBerry on how poor treatment of customers over a long period of time, will effect all aspects of business eventually, not just the groups you treated poorly. Almost every consumer has a job, and some of those will be people with influence in IT spending and projects that directly impact BlackBerry's target audience.

    Posted via Z30
    Well put.

    I would only add that even government will likely soon abandon BlackBerry... prime federal law enforcement agencies already have.

    The whole idea that enterprise, or government for that matter, want something different than consumers is ludicrous.

    BlackBerry have already lost the enterprise hand set market with such failed thinking... government is next (already heading away).

    Even the prez now tweeting from iPhone instead of BlackBerry.

    Posted via CB10
    sentimentGX4 likes this.
    05-26-15 04:36 PM
  12. sentimentGX4's Avatar
    I would only add that even government will likely soon abandon BlackBerry... prime federal law enforcement agencies already have.
    Agreed. Contrary to what is often said and believed on Crackberry, Blackberry is not the only secure smartphone solution nor is it the highest clearance smartphone solution.

    The level of security offered by Blackberry is not relevant for most government duties.
    05-26-15 06:30 PM
  13. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    You should pass on your Slider idea to the Rumored devices thread. Is it not established that the screen slides up and down over the keyboard that is integral to the body ? Like a Torch.

    Posted via CB10
    Thanks! I don't know the engineering behind what's required and to be honest I've never seen a BlackBerry Torch let alone used one.

    But surely the product engineers could figure out making a detachable keyboard. Heck, release an all touch device with removable cover and sell the keyboard as an accessory like Asus did with the Transformer tablet. And make part of the attachable pkb include an extra built-in battery like a Mophie case or similar.

    And then SELL THE HECK out of using the keyboard as touchpad with keyboard shortcuts and actions. Just show someone on an all touch device swiping, swiping, swiping on a long web page and then cut to a BlackBerry Slider where the person is tapping the spacebar to advance a page at a time and then hits T or B to jump to the top or bottom - and that you can do one handed, heh. That alone is worth the extra pkb imho. When I jump from my Passport to my Galaxy Tab, iPhone, etc I find it frustrating that I can't do that, lol.
    05-26-15 06:43 PM
  14. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Thanks! I don't know the engineering behind what's required and to be honest I've never seen a BlackBerry Torch let alone used one.

    But surely the product engineers could figure out making a detachable keyboard. Heck, release an all touch device with removable cover and sell the keyboard as an accessory like Asus did with the Transformer tablet. And make part of the attachable pkb include an extra built-in battery like a Mophie case or similar.

    And then SELL THE HECK out of using the keyboard as touchpad with keyboard shortcuts and actions. Just show someone on an all touch device swiping, swiping, swiping on a long web page and then cut to a BlackBerry Slider where the person is tapping the spacebar to advance a page at a time and then hits T or B to jump to the top or bottom - and that you can do one handed, heh. That alone is worth the extra pkb imho. When I jump from my Passport to my Galaxy Tab, iPhone, etc I find it frustrating that I can't do that, lol.
    The reason why the keypad is integral to the body rather than being detachable has to do with ergonomics. You in effect type the same way as you would an all touch.

    I think the idea is that VKB users would not slide the screen to reveal the PKB. This option was not available to the Torch.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by Bbnivende; 05-26-15 at 09:43 PM.
    anon(9353145) likes this.
    05-26-15 07:46 PM
  15. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    The reason why the keypad is integral to the body rather than being detachable has to do with ergonomics. You in effect type the same way as you would an all touch.

    I think the idea is that VKB users would not slide the screen to reveal the KB. This option was not available to the Torch.

    Posted via CB10
    Ah. But if the VKB users knew that they could jump around web pages and emails like a champ using keyboard shortcuts, maybe they'd reconsider, lol. Before getting the Passport I had no idea this existed on mobile and I love it - just like I love keyboard shortcuts on the desktop.

    I think most people, like me, just see a physical keyboard in the traditional sense and aren't aware of the other advantages. It's a definite selling point, imho. And with touch capacitive, why couldn't they add support for people who want to just 'tap' (or even Swype) on the pkb like a vkb and relegate the keypress to shortcuts and actions and using it as a trackpad?

    No fingers getting in the way of the screen, no accidental clicks on webpage links, etc. Anyway, I see the potential, but it's definitely something that needs to be 'sold' as a unique feature.
    05-26-15 08:03 PM
  16. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    I can't see how blackberry continues to make devices into 2016.
    Oh no, definitely into 2016 at the very least. I'd bet real money on that given the push with the Classic and Leap globally (with carriers) and that Chen at the KW Conference interview brought up the Slider. Not to mention the makeup with Legere at T-Mobile, those actions alone signal a longer term commitment to mobile devices.

    And that's assuming that device sales continue to decline obviously. It's a loss leader at the moment for them, but one that they think they can turn around to a level where it generates revenue, imho.
    05-26-15 08:11 PM
  17. lnichols's Avatar
    Well put.

    I would only add that even government will likely soon abandon BlackBerry... prime federal law enforcement agencies already have.

    The whole idea that enterprise, or government for that matter, want something different than consumers is ludicrous.

    BlackBerry have already lost the enterprise hand set market with such failed thinking... government is next (already heading away).

    Even the prez now tweeting from iPhone instead of BlackBerry.

    Posted via CB10
    Just saw emails today about iOS 8 with xenMobile approved for a government entity. Will be interesting to see what that does. Previously only iOS7 was approved, so no IP6 and any kind could be used. BB10 devices are the norm, but users have choice on what they gey.

    Posted via Z30
    05-26-15 08:16 PM
  18. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Ryan, I can not imagine iOS users wanting a PKB. As far as Android users, I wonder if Samsung might have their own version. Just a speculation

    The unicorns are current Z owners who want to upgrade and Enterprise users most of whom have graduated from PKB's.

    Posted via CB10
    05-26-15 09:48 PM
  19. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    Ryan, I can not imagine iOS users wanting a PKB. As far as Android users, I wonder if Samsung might have their own version. Just a speculation

    The unicorns are current Z owners who want to upgrade and Enterprise users most of whom have graduated from PKB's.

    Posted via CB10
    Given Samsung's chummy relationship with BlackBerry, there's no reason to believe they'd work on their own version of a pkb phone.

    All things being equal, I doubt they'd even consider a slider phone if it weren't for their relationship with BlackBerry actually. The only way I see them taking a chance is if it's a collaboration with BlackBerry where the patents for the touch capacitive pkb, and software apis (or whatever) are contributed to the device on Android. AND, it's Samsung branded obviously.
    05-26-15 10:03 PM
  20. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    Just saw emails today about iOS 8 with xenMobile approved for a government entity. Will be interesting to see what that does. Previously only iOS7 was approved, so no IP6 and any kind could be used. BB10 devices are the norm, but users have choice on what they gey.

    Posted via Z30
    Considering iPhone 6 was just recently released and iOS 8 is months old... Maybe I'm missing something but since iOS 7 was approved, why wouldn't they approve iOS 8? What does this have to do with BlackBerry, lol?
    05-26-15 10:39 PM
  21. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Ryan, I can not imagine iOS users wanting a PKB. As far as Android users, I wonder if Samsung might have their own version. Just a speculation

    The unicorns are current Z owners who want to upgrade and Enterprise users most of whom have graduated from PKB's.
    ...but you and no one else can describe an iOS user that would EVER want to switch to a BB10 full slab device that hasn't done so already.

    At least we all agree that there is absolutely no way that a full-slab BB10 powerhouse device will increase BB10 market share... so logically, they have to concentrate on making devices OTHER than full-slab BB10 powerhouse devices.

    If the only prospective purchasers of a full slab BB10 powerhouse device are current BB10 full slab device users pining for an upgrade, that device has a built-in cap on how many potential customers there are, and that probably numbers in the 5 million or so, probably fewer. So, BlackBerry has to do this but severely limit the number of devices produced and charge a whole lot for them to cover the development costs.
    05-26-15 11:12 PM
  22. crackberry_geek's Avatar
    ...but you and no one else can describe an iOS user that would EVER want to switch to a BB10 full slab device that hasn't done so already.

    At least we all agree that there is absolutely no way that a full-slab BB10 powerhouse device will increase BB10 market share...
    Many disagree with such a statement.

    But if they make it, the only way it would succeed is if they actually tell people about it. Sadly, BlackBerry's bull headed refusal to advertise would be the reason it would fail.

    Posted via CB10
    05-27-15 12:37 AM
  23. bakron1's Avatar
    As I have stated many times, I am involved in the auto industry and its suppliers and they have ALL abandoned Blackberry in favor of IOS and Android devices.

    I have also talked to many IT folks who manage these devices and they tell me they have NO major security issues using these platforms.

    One of the major reasons that Blackberry was cast aside was the lack of the popular apps that are now being used in everyday business and long term support for future products.

    This is why I now use an iPhone 6+ as my daily driver instead of my Blackberry device. It's very sad to have to say that, but that has become a reality in today's business world folks whether you choose to accept it or not.
    Last edited by bakron1; 05-27-15 at 01:06 PM.
    05-27-15 04:04 AM
  24. lnichols's Avatar
    Considering iPhone 6 was just recently released and iOS 8 is months old... Maybe I'm missing something but since iOS 7 was approved, why wouldn't they approve iOS 8? What does this have to do with BlackBerry, lol?
    I was responding to someone's comments about Enterprise being lost to competition. As for your question about why they had to wait, same as the BBOS days the software had to go through FIPS approvals. IOS and probably XenMobile. What does this have to do with BlackBerry? Well this particular customer, who requires FIPS, had only BlackBerry devices until about a year ago and started allowing iOS in. So their is now an alternative, and with iOS 8 approved allowing the iPhone 6 and 6 plus I can see more people deciding to move. Oh and they are in the middle of massive migration away from BBOS devices, all must be BB10 or iOS by end of summer when they will decommisision BES5.

    Posted via Z30
    05-27-15 05:36 AM
  25. lnichols's Avatar
    ...but you and no one else can describe an iOS user that would EVER want to switch to a BB10 full slab device that hasn't done so already.

    At least we all agree that there is absolutely no way that a full-slab BB10 powerhouse device will increase BB10 market share... so logically, they have to concentrate on making devices OTHER than full-slab BB10 powerhouse devices.

    If the only prospective purchasers of a full slab BB10 powerhouse device are current BB10 full slab device users pining for an upgrade, that device has a built-in cap on how many potential customers there are, and that probably numbers in the 5 million or so, probably fewer. So, BlackBerry has to do this but severely limit the number of devices produced and charge a whole lot for them to cover the development costs.
    In the Enterprise I mentioned, people seem to be choosing all touch over PKB, and like them. They are choosing them because that is what they like due to being what they use on the consumer side. If they want to grow out from Enterprise into consumers like they did before, then they need to have compelling devices for people to want both in Enterprise and consumers. They will be competing against the iPhone in both Enterprise and consumer space.

    Posted via Z30
    crackberry_geek likes this.
    05-27-15 06:38 AM
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