06-03-15 10:01 AM
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  1. birdman_38's Avatar
    Ummm.... have you checked say.... Bell or the Verizon customer ratings?

    Yers and mine beloved z30 bests a certain 6th iteration of an Apple phone in customer satisfaction ratings.
    Websites from a couple providers are not an accurate gauge.
    techvisor and eyesopen1111 like this.
    05-23-15 09:41 AM
  2. lnichols's Avatar
    Websites from a couple providers are not an accurate gauge.
    Exactly. I'm talking things equivalent to JD Powers where they are solicited from all users. We all know that the people buying BlackBerry devices are hard core fans and loading up those carrier reviews with unicorns and rainbows. The reviews aren't solicited for from an accurate user sampling. Also I bet a lot of Apple fanboys contaminate the Android reviews and vise versa, neither consider BlackBerry to be a threat right now.

    Posted via Z30
    05-23-15 10:39 AM
  3. sayf777's Avatar
    Unfortunately it all stems back to BlackBerry taking too long / unwilling to change, all that's left to do now is try to innovate and try to get some hold over consumers.

    I would like to think if they spent all the r&d for the passport on a full touch it would have made more sales..


    Anyone care to speculate what he meant with his recent comments with regards to closing the app gap?

    Posted via CB10
    techvisor likes this.
    05-23-15 10:52 AM
  4. BoldPreza's Avatar
    This coming from the same RBC that said there was "meaningful demand" for the Z10 and Q10 two years ago. We know how sales turned out for the Z10.
    There was demand for it. There were also a lot of returns. :S

    Posted via CB10
    Bbnivende and techvisor like this.
    05-23-15 11:12 AM
  5. ljfong's Avatar
    Are you saying that BlackBerry under Chen (and Company) is essentially coasting, lol? Or are you specifically saying that about the hardware division (ie BlackBerry handsets). Either way, I'm not seeing it. Regardless of any traction (or lack thereof), I've seen a lot of initiatives, predominantly in software, since Chen took the reins.

    There seems to be a meme that Chen just got lucky at Sybase (right person as the right time, etc).

    Has anyone bothered to check out his full history and resume? I'm not saying that he's infallible by any means, but he has pretty impressive credentials, all things considered. Writing him off as someone that's coasting on one lucky success is underselling him by a longshot, imho.
    The hardware division is definitely coasting and BB10 has lost any direction it had as a platform. Security middleware side however I think Chen and co are working hard for along with BlackBerry Experience Suite as SaaS offering.

    Posted via CB10
    05-23-15 10:01 PM
  6. z10Jobe's Avatar
    Exactly. I'm talking things equivalent to JD Powers where they are solicited from all users. We all know that the people buying BlackBerry devices are hard core fans and loading up those carrier reviews with unicorns and rainbows. The reviews aren't solicited for from an accurate user sampling. Also I bet a lot of Apple fanboys contaminate the Android reviews and vise versa, neither consider BlackBerry to be a threat right now.

    Posted via Z30
    I dunno about that. There are BlackBerry detractors everywhere, even here on Crackberry. And if anything, the sheep have the rosiest of shade of lenses. They even line up for days to get a phone.

    Posted via CB10
    05-23-15 10:39 PM
  7. BeautyEh's Avatar
    I don't know if we can say definitely that the hardware division is "coasting". Chen made the deal with Foxconn to help lower costs and restructure the way they hang onto inventory. He has done many things that are smaller and/or not consumer-related, like hiring new people at BlackBerry (like John Sims, for example). I think it might be more that the majority of us here, fans as we are of the company, are generally more in the consumer-boat, is this not accurate? So naturally, we want to see TV ads and radio and celebrity endorsements, lol. But that is not their goal right now obviously.

    It *is* interesting, the thing today with the layoffs and apparently someone said there WILL be more emphasis on marketing and sales going forward. Clearly a lot of carriers are carrying new BB devices, like the Classic. I think more important than ads or even new phones is somehow incentivizing carriers again to push BlackBerry. Maybe Chen can gain some traction here. The battle is lost or won when the average person, maybe someone older who might very well love to have a Classic, walks into a store and is instead talked into an iPhone 6+ or Galaxy Edge. My mother is a good example. She has a new iPhone. She hates it. She can't type on it. She doesn't use apps really. But they sold her on it. So bam, new 2 year contract on a device she doesn't really like and doesn't really use in terms of it's full functionality.

    Posted via CB10
    05-24-15 02:51 AM
  8. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    The hardware division is definitely coasting and BB10 has lost any direction it had as a platform. Security middleware side however I think Chen and co are working hard for along with BlackBerry Experience Suite as SaaS offering.

    Posted via CB10
    Oh definitely agree that the hardware division is coasting at the moment in terms of what we're seeing released. I think the Passport is a great device personally but from what I've read it's a design that's been floating internally at BlackBerry for around four years. The Classic is a mashup of the 9900 and the Q10; and the Slider is obviously a throwback to the Torch series.

    I don't think Chen is a big hardware guy, so he's trying the various historical BlackBerry phone form factors to see what (if anything) gets appreciable traction in the marketplace. I can't see any other reason for him to release all these different types of phones given the company's position at the moment. It can't be cheap and it can be confusing to customers with a lack of consistency.

    Think of the iPhone which basically hasn't really changed, ever. Same home button (ok they added a fingerprint reader) and the only real discernible difference is it has become progressively thinner, lighter and now bigger. Internally, it doesn't have the latest and greatest hardware specs (by a long shot) yet it's the single best selling device model of any handset company.

    Assuming BlackBerry is not being acquired by Dunkin' Donuts, lol, I doubt you'll see much more experimenting by Chen on hardware and he'll winnow down the number of devices and push those devices HARD on the carriers (as we're seeing with Classic and Leap).

    I don't think BB10 is stagnating though, I think it just takes time to grow out a new platform. BlackBerry Blend may be a separate software package but it complements BB10 in a major way and I hope they continue to grow it. What makes BB10 seem more stagnant I think is the low developer support for apps (think of how exciting Android or iOS would be with the same app offerings). It took Apple, Google and Microsoft many years to grow their respective OSes to where they are today and there were a few ... hiccups along the way. Some really bad bugs and dumb decisions, imho. No company is immune from making mistakes, it's just that it hurts BlackBerry more than the others because they have a much smaller cash cushion.

    Yeah, totally agree that software in all areas is where he's spending the money. And it makes sense to me if they're going to grow as a company in the near and long term future.

    Ultimately my personal feeling is that in hardware it's touch capacitive for any pkb offerings going forward and an all touch device. If I were the CEO & Chairman, lol, I'd make (1) a thin Passport Slider with four row touch pkb (and make it detachable with swappable back cover); (2) Classic with toolbelt and (3) Decently spec'd 5" or thereabouts all touch device. The Passport may not have won any awards for sales but it's been a success in getting people's attention (tech media, etc).
    05-24-15 06:38 AM
  9. koool1's Avatar
    Only new BlackBerry's I see these days are corporate issued. Consumer market is lost I think.

    I think BlackBerry can make money with a couple of handsets for security minded customers but for the most part our phones are becoming extinct. Very sad.

    Posted via  BlackBerry Z30
    05-24-15 09:27 AM
  10. lnichols's Avatar
    Only new BlackBerry's I see these days are corporate issued. Consumer market is lost I think.

    I think BlackBerry can make money with a couple of handsets for security minded customers but for the most part our phones are becoming extinct. Very sad.

    Posted via  BlackBerry Z30
    I don't know how long that market will be there for BlackBerry. That market wants to move to IPhone when it can. Already has iPhone deployed in some instances, and some have migrated to iPhone or are migrating currently (Navy). BlackBerry grew from corporate out to consumer, but Apple has grown the opposite. It is clear that there are infinitely more business and productivity apps available on the other platforms and it is just a matter of time before the other platforms are secure enough to abandon BlackBerry all together. Using BlackBerry is holding many back from being able to use these apps. BlackBerry knows this and is going cross platform on the MDM side, but it remains to be seen if they will keep this market when people have no reason to stick with BES.

    Posted via Z30
    05-24-15 09:58 AM
  11. pttptppt's Avatar
    LOL I just noticed this. I apologize. That's what I get for waking up way early to work on stuff. For some reason I thought it was talking about yearly, but even then, the numbers I was stating would be for the quarter. I think I just need a whole new brain. And yeah, I'd say 700-1000k is about right but closer to 1000k in my mind, hopefully I am wrong.
    Buddy, 1000k=1million

    Posted via CB10
    05-24-15 10:07 AM
  12. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    I don't know how long that market will be there for BlackBerry. That market wants to move to IPhone when it can. Already has iPhone deployed in some instances, and some have migrated to iPhone or are migrating currently (Navy). BlackBerry grew from corporate out to consumer, but Apple has grown the opposite. It is clear that there are infinitely more business and productivity apps available on the other platforms and it is just a matter of time before the other platforms are secure enough to abandon BlackBerry all together. Using BlackBerry is holding many back from being able to use these apps. BlackBerry knows this and is going cross platform on the MDM side, but it remains to be seen if they will keep this market when people have no reason to stick with BES.

    Posted via Z30
    No reason to stick with BES or any MDM solution in enterprise? How is IT going to manage the devices, implement corporate policies, etc? It's not just about security of the device alone and I don't see Apple or Google getting into MDM anytime soon.
    05-24-15 10:17 AM
  13. RyanGermann's Avatar
    But wait, Chen said PKB is what the customers want! LOL. The smoke that man can blow up stuff!
    There isn't a single BB10 device that is going to sell well until customer confidence is rock solid. Still too much uncertainty surrounding BlackBerry, unfortunately... but it's a catch 22. The devices have to sell in significant quantity to slowly turn those market factors around.

    People want 16 x 9 screens, so I am putting a lot of hope in the Slider in attracting non BB10 users to the platform. The Classic and Passport square screens have limited appeal: IMUO it's not the presence of the PKB, it's the lack of 16 x 9 screen that is the problem with the current flagships, which I hope will be solved with the slider's release.

    The decision to pursue the slider is the absolutely single best idea BlackBerry has had w.r.t. BB10 devices. The worst idea was prior to the BB10 launch when they killed the slider and decided to go all touch and half-baked PKB devices that failed spectacularly, instead of 'owning it' w.r.t. what differentiated BlackBerry devices from the commonplace full-slab devices that are boringly omnipresent. If the BB10 launch was a portrait slider and Classic, I think the landscape would be positively different for BB10. If BB10 kept the best of EVERYTHING from BBOS but added a rock-solid web browser and gaming experience like BB10 can do, things would have been very different... but management at the time were sissies who didn't hold their head high when bullied... instead saying things like "not one line of code is carried over from BBOS...", spitting on BB's legacy pretty much completely. Chen comes in and embraces that legacy, and that IS the only way forward, not trying to BE Apple.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 05-24-15 at 11:04 AM.
    05-24-15 10:40 AM
  14. lnichols's Avatar
    I think the previous management realized BBOS was viewed very poorly, and tried to distance the new from the old, but didn't do enough do distance the new from the old. New OS and devices shouldn't have had name BlackBerry on them at all IMHO. Their only growth with BBOS in the later years was in "emerging markets" that have now mostly abandoned them for cheap Android.

    Posted via Z30
    05-24-15 12:41 PM
  15. asherN's Avatar
    Renaming the company BlackBerry was also a mistake. Who names their company after the one product in their inventory that has a bad name? Sticking with the BES name for the MDM is also a mistake. They should have remained RIM and found a new name for the MDM, one that doe not imply that it is designed for BB and does other devices on the side.
    05-24-15 01:55 PM
  16. curves2000's Avatar
    One of the biggest issues with the development of BB10 was the delays and the communication to the market on launch.

    When BB acquired QNX back in April 2010 the goal was to get them to develop Playbook and BB10 because they knew that BBOS wasn't going to the the future. For a very long time the market was told that BB10 "superphones" as they were called were launching in "early 2012". For the longest time management stuck to that time frame knowing full well they were being delayed. This lead to lots and lots of corporations and a still sizable consumer market not fully adopting the BB7 devices like the 9900 in droves. BB7 was launched in August of 2011 so for a lot of people the cost and the fact that the latest Blackberry's were 6 months away lead people to wait and see.

    When management finally confirmed what a lot of insiders knew, that BB10 was going to be delayed till "late 2012, due to a chip availability issue" it was almost game over.

    Blackberry needed to make sure they developed BB10 to resemble BBOS in a lot of ways feature wise, get the modern browser, apps, screen sizes etc of today's phones and launch with the QWERTY first. The issue was they were getting killed in the press, TV, media, web forums, stock market and everywhere. They decided to launch BB10 before it was ready because they had no other choice. Couldn't wait another 12-18 months to get the proper platform out. The company in essence made somewhat of a similar mistake to the Storm disaster of 2008 and the PB of 2011, launch a product not finished with little to no carrier support and hope to patch the errors up.

    What happened to Blackberry is going to be a business school case for years to come. Very rarely has a company grown so quickly to become such a powerhouse globally only to collapse in the same speed and fashion. In the modern tech world it would be in my opinion to Facebook going from a small company in 2004 to the social media powerhouse of today to being a non factor in 2016.

    Massive Blackberry fan here and long time suffering shareholder but I can't help but be amazed as to what has occurred in the last several years, almost unbelievable. New book coming out next week on the rise and fall of the company and I am curious to read it.






    Posted via CB10
    Troy Tiscareno likes this.
    05-24-15 02:00 PM
  17. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    This coming from the same RBC that said there was "meaningful demand" for the Z10 and Q10 two years ago. We know how sales turned out for the Z10.
    Z10?
    Best selling BB10 device of all time.

    Q10? Paraphrasing T. Heins "We're gonna sell tens of millions".
    Sadly, reality kicked in afterwards.

    Or did you mean something else?
    kbz1960 likes this.
    05-25-15 06:21 AM
  18. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Okay, just wanted to know what you meant, thanks. What you're saying is basically what Chen has said publicly already. I was on board for the Passport when I heard about it and actually watched the launch. As I recall, one of the first things he said about the Passport was that he had nothing to do with it other than he didn't 'kill it'. Actually, I've found him to be pretty straightforward.

    The Leap is a mid to low spec'd device, no doubt about it. In my opinion, they had to release it in the face of the ever lower bar on Android devices. Asus just released the Zenphone 2 in Canada for $379 with Samsung Galaxy S6 specs. How is BlackBerry expected to compete on that level given their current situation? Actually, how is Samsung and other high end Android OEMs expected to compete, even with their larger treasure chests, lol.

    The next high spec'd device will be the Slider complete with pkb. It almost certainly won't be priced below $500 (I'm sure) given that BlackBerry isn't eligible for the same volume discounts on hardware that Apple or Samsung can command. Personally I hope that they found a way to release the Slider concurrent with an equivalent all touch device but that's certainly not a given.

    Given the realities on the hardware front, that leaves software as an avenue of growth for BlackBerry. It's going to come at the expense of hardware in the near future. Frankly, given the low volume sales, I'm surprised that BlackBerry under Chen is going to release the Slider and not just stick to 'lifeline' devices like the Leap and lower spec'd Classic.

    If that's not enough for you, and you enjoy BB10, you should be happy that Chen is looking to bring some of those features cross platform and you will be able to buy a super high spec'd and super cheap Android device and still be able to BBM, Hub, and whatever else in the near future.
    Only talking about Samsung and how they will try to compete:

    The S6 Edge is probably the best indication we had in a long time.
    Samsung is trying to become the Apple of Android.
    Over 1k for their flagship flagship version.

    I think that Samsung knows exactly that their marketshare will erode in the low/mid tier, in the next few years because of the competition.
    Thus they try to be a successful premium manufacturer.

    I do not believe that it will work, but I have been wrong on more than one occasion
    05-25-15 06:35 AM
  19. keithhackneysmullet's Avatar
    Z10?
    Best selling BB10 device of all time.

    Q10? Paraphrasing T. Heins "We're gonna sell tens of millions".
    Sadly, reality kicked in afterwards.

    Or did you mean something else?
    Really not saying much about the z10 there. That is like being the prettiest girl at the ugliest girl in the world competition. Most of the z10 sales were sold at a loss.

    Posted via CB10
    RyanGermann likes this.
    05-25-15 09:18 AM
  20. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Really not saying much about the z10 there. That is like being the prettiest girl at the ugliest girl in the world competition. Most of the z10 sales were sold at a loss.

    Posted via CB10
    The Z10 helped to grow the BB10 marketshare.
    The physical keyboard devices after it, did the exact opposite.

    So I am kind of confused why PKB devices would be hailed as something great.
    BlackBerry has 100% of the physical keyboard marketshare and isn't profitable, while their marketshare is slipping into oblivion.

    I don't understand why anybody would elevate the PKB devices to something they are not.
    Neither did they save the company nor will they.
    If anything, the focus on keyboards is the reason for a 0.1% marketshare this year. The moment in which you are probably even too small to be included in the "others" category.
    Basically, a statistical anomaly.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    05-25-15 09:59 AM
  21. lnichols's Avatar
    Really not saying much about the z10 there. That is like being the prettiest girl at the ugliest girl in the world competition. Most of the z10 sales were sold at a loss.

    Posted via CB10
    They sold over 2 Million and maybe closer to 3 Million before the price cuts. Had they managed the inventory better and not committed to make so many units, probably would have been their most profitable model for a while. These sales were with a very immature OS that was pretty buggy, and hardware that was dated at launch. Now they have an OS that is pretty good, and no device running it people, even those of us who actually buy BB10 devices, wants.

    Posted via Z30
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    05-25-15 01:07 PM
  22. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    Only talking about Samsung and how they will try to compete:

    The S6 Edge is probably the best indication we had in a long time.
    Samsung is trying to become the Apple of Android.
    Over 1k for their flagship flagship version.

    I think that Samsung knows exactly that their marketshare will erode in the low/mid tier, in the next few years because of the competition.
    Thus they try to be a successful premium manufacturer.

    I do not believe that it will work, but I have been wrong on more than one occasion
    I agree completely. The trend with Android (One+One, Zenphone 2, etc.) is to offer primo specs at mid-range prices. Samsung gambled on being more like Apple (than usual) and the gamble doesn't appear to have paid off. The non-edge S6 is only what, $100 cheaper than the equivalent iPhone (storage)? Same no Micro-SD (that generally won't go over well with Android users), no removable battery but still charging a premium. I'm sure most people thought, "why not just get an iPhone if I'm going to pay that much", lol. It's the same problem HTC, LG, Sony and other high end Android OEMs are facing. Samsung is just the last to get bitten, imho.

    The battery issues aren't helping (a lot of people saying the battery is worse than the S5, and NON-removable to boot).

    To be fair, this year Apple finally entered the phablet market and I've personally seen a huge number of people upgrading to the 6 or 6+. I think there was pent up demand since the 4S for something really worth upgrading to. It'll be interesting to see sales numbers of the 6s / 6s+. Anyway, Apple's success came at the expense of Samsung, as well as the new low priced high spec'd Android competitors.

    Only Apple is Apple. Well, maybe Huawei...
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    05-25-15 06:44 PM
  23. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    The Z10 helped to grow the BB10 marketshare.
    The physical keyboard devices after it, did the exact opposite.

    So I am kind of confused why PKB devices would be hailed as something great.
    BlackBerry has 100% of the physical keyboard marketshare and isn't profitable, while their marketshare is slipping into oblivion.

    I don't understand why anybody would elevate the PKB devices to something they are not.
    Neither did they save the company nor will they.
    I agree that the majority want all touch, including it would seem most BlackBerry users (at least the ones that polled on Crackberry). But I still see potential in the touch capacitive pkb. It's only been released on the Passport which does have a very unorthodox design, and it was released by BlackBerry whom the majority of people seem to believe is already dead or on it's way out. That matters.

    I think you know I'm a Passport owner as well as long time iPhone and Android user. I absolutely love the touch capactive keyboard and see all kinds of things they could add to it to make it even more appealing. The slider (assuming it's touch as well) has potential since it at least respects the traditional 16:9 ratio.

    Of course, people have to actually know about keyboard shortcuts, actions and gestures on a pkb in order for it to have a shot and/or to generate interest. Anyway, regardless of BlackBerry / Apple / Google / Microsoft, I genuinely love the tech. I've posted before I think they should try and convince Samsung to do a limited run of an Android powered slider that's Samsung branded and see the reaction to the device from consumers and the tech media (without the BlackBerry damaged brand name in the eyes of consumers).

    They've added to the Passport functionality by adding pinch zoom in the browser via the pkb, and seem to be increasingly adding 'trackpad' functionality across BB10. I think any future pkb devices from the company have to have this capability, and they should definitely add more features.

    And yes, still release a good all touch device. Whether it's a slider with detachable pkb (replaceable back cover) or release a thin all touch concurrent with the Slider like the old Torch phones (before my time, but I've learned about them here).
    Bbnivende and MarsupilamiX like this.
    05-25-15 06:53 PM
  24. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I don't know if we can say definitely that the hardware division is "coasting". Chen made the deal with Foxconn to help lower costs and restructure the way they hang onto inventory. He has done many things that are smaller and/or not consumer-related, like hiring new people at BlackBerry (like John Sims, for example). I think it might be more that the majority of us here, fans as we are of the company, are generally more in the consumer-boat, is this not accurate? So naturally, we want to see TV ads and radio and celebrity endorsements, lol. But that is not their goal right now obviously.

    It *is* interesting, the thing today with the layoffs and apparently someone said there WILL be more emphasis on marketing and sales going forward. Clearly a lot of carriers are carrying new BB devices, like the Classic. I think more important than ads or even new phones is somehow incentivizing carriers again to push BlackBerry. Maybe Chen can gain some traction here. The battle is lost or won when the average person, maybe someone older who might very well love to have a Classic, walks into a store and is instead talked into an iPhone 6+ or Galaxy Edge. My mother is a good example. She has a new iPhone. She hates it. She can't type on it. She doesn't use apps really. But they sold her on it. So bam, new 2 year contract on a device she doesn't really like and doesn't really use in terms of it's full functionality.

    Posted via CB10
    Not sure why you think the geriatric market wants a PKB. I am one and I use a VKB. I would suggest that the geriatric market loves face timing with their grand kids and seeing what their children have posted on instagram or seeing if they have met their personal Fitbit goals.

    Posted via CB10
    05-26-15 12:46 AM
  25. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I agree that the majority want all touch, including it would seem most BlackBerry users (at least the ones that polled on Crackberry). But I still see potential in the touch capacitive pkb. It's only been released on the Passport which does have a very unorthodox design, and it was released by BlackBerry whom the majority of people seem to believe is already dead or on it's way out. That matters.

    I think you know I'm a Passport owner as well as long time iPhone and Android user. I absolutely love the touch capactive keyboard and see all kinds of things they could add to it to make it even more appealing. The slider (assuming it's touch as well) has potential since it at least respects the traditional 16:9 ratio.

    Of course, people have to actually know about keyboard shortcuts, actions and gestures on a pkb in order for it to have a shot and/or to generate interest. Anyway, regardless of BlackBerry / Apple / Google / Microsoft, I genuinely love the tech. I've posted before I think they should try and convince Samsung to do a limited run of an Android powered slider that's Samsung branded and see the reaction to the device from consumers and the tech media (without the BlackBerry damaged brand name in the eyes of consumers).

    They've added to the Passport functionality by adding pinch zoom in the browser via the pkb, and seem to be increasingly adding 'trackpad' functionality across BB10. I think any future pkb devices from the company have to have this capability, and they should definitely add more features.

    And yes, still release a good all touch device. Whether it's a slider with detachable pkb (replaceable back cover) or release a thin all touch concurrent with the Slider like the old Torch phones (before my time, but I've learned about them here).
    You should pass on your Slider idea to the Rumored devices thread. Is it not established that the screen slides up and down over the keyboard that is integral to the body ? Like a Torch.

    Posted via CB10
    anon(9353145) likes this.
    05-26-15 01:03 AM
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