08-30-14 07:04 PM
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  1. Raestloz's Avatar
    Expanded outside of the US, so what you didn't even know that they were selling the phone in China before they ever sold it in the US? How could they expand outside of the US when they didn't even start by selling it there? They expanded from China to several countries, but they sold it first in China.

    You still don't seem to understand that there is two versions of the phone, one that is made for China and the international version that is made for everywhere else outside of China. Why are you unable to understand that? I've already explained it to you once. Not to mention there is a thing called Google that can confirm the existence of two versions.

    The China version is sold outright. It doesn't require an invite. Your screenshot is from oneplus.net, you know, where they ONLY sell the international version of the phone. The invite system is only for the international version, not the China version. Again, you can confirm that with Google.
    You are trying to play semantics to bring down my arguments, great job. I heard English have a term for that: straw man.

    Question:
    What makes them have to make 2 different versions?

    Why not just sell only one version?

    If they have to sell 2 different versions, that means that have 2 devices with different components, and that means the price for both are different. If they managed to sell the devices in droves in China, to the point that you don't need an invite to get it there, then why even bother with limitation outside?

    As long as you can't provide a very good argument as to why they even need to put a limitation at all, no matter the version, my theory will still stand.

    I care not where they originate from

    Z10 STL100-1/10.2.1.3247
    08-07-14 12:39 AM
  2. Ment's Avatar
    The chinese version has ColorOS which is a Android fork and the intl version has CyanogenMod. You can flash it to the desired if you inclined that way. The chinese version also does not support LTE bands 4 and 17, I believe that may be an issue if you wanted to use it on Tmobile for example.
    08-07-14 01:37 AM
  3. Bla1ze's Avatar
    Funny enough, people here would complain even if it was priced at $399 unlocked and off-contract

    $600 is also reasonable to me for a device that suits my work flow and business style
    Yup, agreed.
    08-07-14 02:06 AM
  4. John Vieira's Avatar
    Yup, agreed.
    I'm pretty much in line with you. 600 is ok. 650 is a push but acceptable.

    Any higher and I'm not getting it.

    Any lower and I'll cheer.

    We have to keep in mind the actual technology going into this.

    Sure it's a year old processor. But 3gb of ram, 32 internal, that camera, the odd screen size and that keyboard are all things that are expensive to obtain. Not to mention Blackberry's lack of purchasing power.

    I can see this device costing them about 200 bucks to manufacture (based off an estimate of a 5S costing Apple about 150 at launch)

    Posted via (hopefully) a passport A10
    08-07-14 02:40 AM
  5. Witmen's Avatar
    You are trying to play semantics to bring down my arguments, great job. I heard English have a term for that: straw man.

    Question:
    What makes them have to make 2 different versions?

    Why not just sell only one version?

    If they have to sell 2 different versions, that means that have 2 devices with different components, and that means the price for both are different. If they managed to sell the devices in droves in China, to the point that you don't need an invite to get it there, then why even bother with limitation outside?

    As long as you can't provide a very good argument as to why they even need to put a limitation at all, no matter the version, my theory will still stand.

    I care not where they originate from

    Z10 STL100-1/10.2.1.3247
    I'm not playing semantics, I actually understand what I'm talking about and live in reality instead of make believe world. It is like you are trying to prove that your wrong theory about the OPO makes sense by posting entirely wrong information to back it up. It doesn't work like that.

    For the last time, I will attempt to explain it logically to you.

    1. OnePlus makes the One in 2 versions. One version for China, the other for all of the other supported countries.
    2. OnePlus is from China, so they are focused on their home market first because they believe it will sell the best there. Kinda like what BlackBerry done with the Z3. Focus on the market that is most likely to buy the product.
    3. The China version of the phone is sold outright to anyone who wants it. There is no invite needed for the China version. They make tons of that version because they are focused on the Chinese market first. Seems logical don't it? The international version of the phone is being sold as fast as they can make it, but their main priority has always been there home market. They care more about selling the One in China than any where else. No conspiracy needed, just simple business.
    4. Keep in mind that this is a new company. I'm sure they are doing the best they can to meet the demand of the international version and they are catching up, like I said previously, they are allegedly sending out as many as 5,000 invites to buy the international phone per day. But their main priority is the Chinese market.

    Your theory, that they are limiting availability until the price of parts drop just doesn't make logical sense. If that was the case, than why is the China version so abundant? If your theroy was correct, wouldn't they make all versions of the phone limited? Isn't it easier to believe that a new company is simply using their limited production capacity to support their strongest market first and everyone else second?

    How easy it to buy a Z3 in North America through official channels?
    Last edited by Witmen; 08-07-14 at 06:55 AM.
    08-07-14 05:48 AM
  6. anon1727506's Avatar
    I'm pretty much in line with you. 600 is ok. 650 is a push but acceptable.

    Any higher and I'm not getting it.

    Any lower and I'll cheer.

    We have to keep in mind the actual technology going into this.

    Sure it's a year old processor. But 3gb of ram, 32 internal, that camera, the odd screen size and that keyboard are all things that are expensive to obtain. Not to mention Blackberry's lack of purchasing power.

    I can see this device costing them about 200 bucks to manufacture (based off an estimate of a 5S costing Apple about 150 at launch)

    Posted via (hopefully) a passport A10
    Passport is more in the Note 3 class... it cost Samsung about $240 it is ESTIMATED, almost $100 more than what the Z10 cost to manufacture and they tried to market it at $600 at launch. Bet that 1x1 screen is more expensive than the Note 3's, especially when Samsung makes their own screens. Wouldn't be surprised if the Passport cost BlackBerry more like $280 to manufacture, do launch day price at $699+ wouldn't be out of the question - then after a couple of months it would drop down to almost a year later it should be about $599.


    If this is a custom for BlackBerry only screen, have to wonder what kind of commitment they made when they ordered these?
    08-08-14 12:53 PM
  7. Ment's Avatar
    If this is a custom for BlackBerry only screen, have to wonder what kind of commitment they made when they ordered these?
    Chen isn't going to repeat Z10 mistakes so it will be a commitment of hundreds of thousands not millions. As such the price breaks for large order volume won't be there along with the savings of making your own components (Samsung) or streamlined supply chain (Apple).

    Just saw the LG G3 went on sale at AT&T for zero down which is crazy. so its possible the Passport will come to some consumers for $99 on contract if Chen is willing go lower on margins.
    08-08-14 01:56 PM
  8. ZeroBarrier's Avatar
    so its possible the Passport will come to some consumers for $99 on contract if Chen is willing go lower on margins.
    That won't happen. And anyone who thinks it will is out of touch.

    Posted via CB10
    08-08-14 02:56 PM
  9. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    I agree.... they need the higher prices to offset their higher cost to buy and build devices.

    But simple truth is while we would all love it if the prices were lower.... the slashing the price of the PlayBook and the Z10 really didn't sell that many more devices. I know it did help to move inventory and that many bought those devices that would not have. But there has to be a demand for a product to begin with, the price will help make the sale, but if no one wants it to begin with ...
    Not that you are wrong overall, but you disregard certain factors.

    Going by what happened in the past with the PlayBook, Q5,Z10 and Z30, BlackBerry has a tendency to grossly overprice the devices to let the early adopters pay A LOT, and then they discount their devices heavily.

    This creates an image problem, and also makes the price development predictable.
    Which means that it pretty much makes no sense to buy a BlackBerry at launch. Everyone who cares enough to know, knows that the BlackBerry product will cost half as much 3 months after the release (hyperbole).

    While people wait for that moment, the competition offers 30 new other phones, "that are all better" (going by marketshare and sales).
    So instead of waiting to buy the BlackBerry, they just buy something else.

    This is linked to the demand for smartphones and BlackBerry, because people don't want to overpay for a product (generally this is true. Let's just ignore the luxury segment).
    Basically, instead of pricing their devices reasonably (I am not demanding that BlackBerry prices their phones like Huawei) at launch and getting the good-will of the consumers, they screw themselves through asking a completely ridiculous price, and losing all potential good-will that could have existed.

    Another point you disregard, is that BlackBerry never launched a true all-touch flagship. The Z30 was an overpriced mid-range device which more or less also applies to the Z10.
    Whatever the Storms were, they surely were overpriced as well and the Torch was just uncompetitive, no matter how you priced it.
    BlackBerry NEVER tried to launch a reasonably priced all touch flagship.
    And the all touch form factor represents about 99% of the current market.

    So it's not like better pricing would hurt them, it's much rather the contrary.
    I agree though, that BlackBerry has higher development costs, so they have to demand more than others.
    But asking twice as much (Z30) than everyone else, is something the potential buyer won't easily accept.

    Posted via CB10
    08-08-14 08:23 PM
  10. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    If anyone can show me a qwerty phablet with a touch sensitive keyboard, 32 gb of memory and a battery that size from ANY OTHER MANUFACTURERS IN THE WORLD. I'd love to see it lol!

    They are not the same category. People who want a qwerty device have only one good option and that's BlackBerry. I wish people would understand that simple concept.

    "I love when people boast about their phones...like its a pissing contest"
    And I wish that people would finally understand that the Qwerty form factor is one of the least desired in the market.
    Sub 1% marketshare last year...

    The BlackBerry passport is a unique proposition in the smartphone market place and its not targeted to teenagers, hipsters, students and the like. So 650 is not preposterous.

    Differentiate or Die
    You didn't think that it's insulting to lump academics together with "hipsters and the like"?

    You didn't know, that students who are apparently able to afford a 999$ MacBook, should be a targeted demographic?

    You didn't realise, that the students of today, could very well decide about what devices will be employed in an enterprise from tomorrow?

    You didn't recognise the fact, that students are one of the groups who write A LOT?

    Well, I do hate hipsters and teenagers though...

    Being unique doesn't justify the price. The price is based on supply and demand. Since demand for BlackBerry devices isn't very high the Passport shouldn't be $649.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    Yes and no.
    It can be a viable business model to sell for a high price, especially because the demand is low.

    Compared to the overall market size, something like the Bagger 298 has virtually 0 demand.
    So if you want to produce and sell it for a nice profit, it MUST be EXPENSIVE.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagger_293

    The absolute number of devices BlackBerry manufactured and never sold is irrelevant if you can't find them in stores.
    1) COMPLETELY WRONG and a HUGE fail in terms of logic.

    If BlackBerry has unsold inventory, because they produced too much and therefore couldn't meet the demand for their existing supply, then this is basically the definition of people not wanting the product.

    You can't find them in stores anymore, because "nobody" wants them anymore.
    Not to forget that the carriers are clients well. If BlackBerry expected a higher demand from their customers (carriers in this case) but they refused to buy it, what do you think that means???
    (yes, it means that the number of unsold phones is relevant)

    If you want a qwerty phone you only have one choice: BlackBerry. There is a small number of people who want to buy a product and only one company offering it. This means there is a limited supply (in terms of choice).
    This is a half-truth....
    Saying that BlackBerry is the only one who makes those devices and that the supply is therefore limited is not wrong.
    But it's a huge strawman.

    It becomes wrong though, when we look at the numbers of sold and unsold BlackBerries.
    BlackBerry has exactly 0 problems to satisfy the current demand, which means that the supply isn't limited.
    There are more BlackBerries out there, than people willing to buy them.

    However, you do want a Passport and the only company offering such a product is BlackBerry.
    Well, this is correct.
    But we have exactly NO IDEA how big the demand for a Passport will be.
    If you want to say, that a lot of people have been vocal to buy one on here...
    Then I would say that going by what is posted in here, the Z30/Z10/PlayBook/Q10/Q5/Storm outsell the iPhone.

    I disagree. If they want to remain to be seen as a top of the line company in the enterprise space they need to be careful not to price too low.

    Posted via CB10
    I ask that probably daily by now (not only you obviously) but: do you think that companies are able to make the profits they do, because they waste all of their earned cash on overpriced products?

    Or in other words:
    It's totally ridiculous to say that because an enterprise can afford it, that said enterprise will throw money down the drain for their electronic gear.
    Usually IT equipment is exactly two things: As cheap as possible and as expensive as necessary.

    There's a reason why the CURVE found its way into so many enterprises... Yes, it's because it didn't cost a 650$.

    The Passport will be a flagship for Enterprise. It should be priced accordingly.
    Nope.
    The Passport will be a phone for everyone who wants a physical keyboard, without a tiny screen or a useless toolbelt.

    The Passport is aimed at the consumer as well, not only the enterprise customer.
    It's much more of a consumer device than you think.

    They already have the Z3 for the lower end market.

    Posted via CB10
    The Z3 costs too much for a low-range device.
    When you look against what smartphones it competes, you can get faaaar better phones for the same price.

    It is however, a step into the right direction.
    I was actually pretty pleased with what the phone represents: BlackBerry understanding the need to adress lower price points.

    The issue now is that blackberry isn't looking to sell to the average consumer they are selling this phone to businesses, health sector, governments. That's what gives them the power to sell at that price whether it's the right choice reminds to be seen though.

    Posted via CB10
    Another thing I apparently need to say at least once a day:
    If a physician or an architect uses a Passport for his projects/work instead of a 10 inch iPad/15 inch ultra book, he/she does it WRONG.

    And as was said before, an enterprise doesn't buy uselessly expensive IT equipment.
    Those are bought on a pretty tight budget.

    Not to forget, I can buy 2 iPad minis for the price of one Passport.
    And even though the iPad mini isn't great for CAD drawings or X-Ray scans, it's still better than the Passport.

    BlackBerry is in trouble not because of the current size of the qwerty market, but because they didn't release BlackBerry 10 in time. Qwerty fans had to compromise and moved on to iOS or Android. This is changing though, they trimmed out the fat and their revenue is now growing. Just because a company is in trouble it doesn't make its products less valuable. I'm buying a phone, not the entire company.

    Posted via CB10
    Omg, honestly, you have no idea how funny this post is for me.

    You really believe that smartphone customers (seen as an aggregate) want the physical keyboard back???


    You're ignoring the reality that BlackBerry's component and production cost is likely 20-30% higher that Apple's or Sansung's

    Posted from CB10 running on my awesome Z30 2B6927F7
    They still have a 40% gross margin though...
    And that's what you are ignoring.


    Haha what are the two axis on that graph you are referring to?

    BlackBerry controls the one that you didn't mention in this post.

    Dominate the MCAT C0012A8A6
    Yep, BlackBerry controls the supply, but the supply is higher than the demand, so it actually works against your thesis. You seem to have misunderstood something there.

    Also, knowing about the graph you talk, is really Economics 101. I learned about that the 1 hour I went to the U.
    So yeah, I am not impressed.

    Correct! Supply.

    Dominate the MCAT C0012A8A6
    For someone who totally misinterpreted the supply/demand situation BlackBerry is in, you really shouldn't play the economics professor.

    Now thinking about what you said in the "I support BlackBerry and I buy shares thread", you should just stay away from economics.

    PS: I will very probably buy a Passport.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 08-09-14 at 04:49 AM.
    chalx and Pain like this.
    08-08-14 09:53 PM
  11. TheoRadu's Avatar
    1) COMPLETELY WRONG and a HUGE fail in terms of logic.

    If BlackBerry has unsold inventory, because they produced too much and therefore couldn't meet the demand for their existing supply, then this is basically the definition of people not wanting the product.

    You can't find them in stores anymore, because "nobody" wants them anymore.
    Not to forget that the carriers are clients well. If BlackBerry expected a higher demand from their customers (carriers in this case) but they refused to buy it, what do you think that means???
    (yes, it means that the number of unsold phones is relevant)

    ...

    This is a half-truth....
    Saying that BlackBerry is the only one who makes those devices and that the supply is therefore limited is not wrong.
    But it's a huge strawman.

    It becomes wrong though, when we look at the numbers of sold and unsold BlackBerries.
    BlackBerry has exactly 0 problems to satisfy the current demand, which means that the supply isn't limited.
    There are more BlackBerries out there, than people willing to buy them.

    ...

    Omg, honestly, you have no idea how funny this post is for me.

    You really believe that smartphone customers (seen as an aggregate) want the physical keyboard back???


    Posted via CB10
    The unsold inventory is not available to me, the buyer of a smartphone.
    As an example, I bought my Z30 about 3 months after its release. It took me 2 weeks to finally find the phone here in the UK.

    What does this tell us? The networks and mobile phone shops underestimated the demand and ordered only a dozen of phones for a city of 8 million people.

    As a result,10 months after its launch the Z30 is the almost the same price here in the UK. Pretty impressive for a BlackBerry, don't you think?

    As to what smartphone users want, most will want full touch phones. But a big chunk of them (ex keyboard lovers) will, at the very least, want to play with a Passport in a shop. I don't know what will happen from there, but I'm confident a lot of them will come back.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by TheoRadu; 08-09-14 at 02:49 AM.
    08-09-14 02:36 AM
  12. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    The unsold inventory is not available to me, the buyer of a smartphone.
    As an example, I bought my Z30 about 3 months after its release. It took me 2 weeks to finally find the phone here in the UK.

    What does this tell us? The networks and mobile phone shops underestimated the demand and ordered only a dozen of phones for a city of 8 million people.
    No, what this tells us, is that the demand for BlackBerries is so low, that carriers have no need to stock them in big numbers, or stock them at all.
    0.5 people out of 100 wanted a BB10 device in 2013 (0.5% global marketshare).

    Of course it will get harder to find a BlackBerry, because carriers have exactly no incentive to stock them. They will make more money if they do not stock them and go with other phones (#opportunity costs).

    So if anything, this tells us that you overestimated how important you are for the carriers and overestimated the need to stock BlackBerries.

    As a result,10 months after its launch the Z30 is the almost the same price here in the UK. Pretty impressive for a BlackBerry, don't you think?
    Amazon.de has it for 350 Euro.
    Amazon.co.uk has it for 380 pound.
    Amazon.com has it for 399 dollar.

    So the Z30 got introduced for 380 pounds, 10 months ago?
    If yes, I was wrong to call it overpriced at launch.
    If not, I wonder why you present me with inaccurate informations.

    As to what smartphone users want, most will want full touch phones. But a big chunk of them (ex keyboard lovers) will, at the very least, want to play with a Passport in a shop. I don't know what will happen from there, but I'm confident a lot of them will come back.

    Posted via CB10
    If they got heavily invested in the other ecosystems, a comeback is pretty unlikely.
    Most people are also over the physical keyboard itself. It's not uncommon anymore, to write faster on a touchscreen keyboard and it offers a far greater flexibility than a hardware one.

    You know what you get when you don't buy a BlackBerry?
    You get bigger displays, apps, services, a real ecosystem and the knowledge that the company you bought your smartphone from won't stop producing them in 12 months.

    I doubt that the nostalgia for the physical keyboard can overshadow that.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 08-09-14 at 07:50 AM.
    JeepBB likes this.
    08-09-14 05:30 AM
  13. TheoRadu's Avatar
    No, what this tells us, is that the demand for BlackBerries is so low, that carriers have no need to stock them in big numbers, or stock them at all.
    0.5 persons out of 100 wanted a BB10 device in 2013 (0.5% global marketshare).

    Of course it will get harder to find a BlackBerry, because carriers have exactly no incentive to stock them. They will make more money if they do not stock them and go with other phones (#opportunity costs).

    So if anything, this tells us that you overestimated how important you are for the carriers and overestimated the need to stock BlackBerries.



    Amazon.de has it for 350 Euro.
    Amazon.co.uk has it for 380 pound.
    Amazon.com has it for 399 dollar.

    So the Z30 got introduced for 380 pounds, 10 months ago?
    If yes, I was wrong to call it overpriced at launch.
    If not, I wonder why you present me with inaccurate informations.



    If they got heavily invested in the other ecosystems, a comeback is pretty unlikely.
    Most people are also over the physical keyboard itself. It's not uncommon anymore, to write faster on a touchscreen keyboard and it offers a far greater flexibility than a hardware one.

    You know what you get when you don't buy a BlackBerry?
    You get bigger displays, apps, services, a real ecosystem and the knowledge that the company you bought your smartphone from won't stop producing them in 12 months.

    I doubt that the nostalgia for the physical keyboard can overshadow that.

    Posted via CB10
    I'm not the only one who had trouble finding a Z30 in London or the UK. This forum was full of threads about this. The demand was higher than anticipated, just not high enough to matter for companies like Vodafone, EE or O2.

    If you read my post again, you will notice I said "the price is ALMOST the same". Contract prices are exactly the same (free on a 38GBP per month plan) and off contract prices are about 25% less, but this small drop is comparable to other very popular devices like the Samsung Galaxy S5. Again, this is almost one year later!

    I'm just going to say this as an answer to your last statement: the apps argument is getting old.

    Posted via CB10
    08-09-14 06:43 AM
  14. BoldtotheMax's Avatar
    I didn't even pay that for my g3. Seriously, if they don't sell it on contract for under 99$, then it won't do well... Again.
    08-09-14 08:47 AM
  15. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    I'm not the only one who had trouble finding a Z30 in London or the UK. This forum was full of threads about this. The demand was higher than anticipated, just not high enough to matter for companies like Vodafone, EE or O2.
    Do you understand what a global marketshare of 0.5% means?
    Do you understand the concept of opportunity costs? (it means that a carrier loses money when he stocks and displays the Z30 instead of a phone people actually want to buy)

    Remember when I said that CB isn't exactly representative?

    Can you actually prove that the demand was higher than anticipated? Because BlackBerry's marketshare with BB10 and their financial position, don't seem to indicate that at all.
    Wouldn't they come out and say, that the demand was higher than expected, as a positive publicity message?


    If you read my post again, you will notice I said "the price is ALMOST the same". Contract prices are exactly the same (free on a 38GBP per month plan) and off contract prices are about 25% less, but this small drop is comparable to other very popular devices like the Samsung Galaxy S5. Again, this is almost one year later.

    Posted via CB10
    So a reduction of about 34% is "almost the same"?
    530 pound at the introduction and 350 pound now. That's roughly 34% less.

    The Galaxy S5 got introduced for 550 pounds (on Amazon) and I can get it for 459.9 pounds now.
    This is a reduction of roughly 17%.

    Yeah, totally comparable.
    Man, you're hilarious.

    I'm just going to say this as an answer to your last statement: the apps argument is getting old.

    Posted via CB10
    I didn't only specify apps, I talked about the whole package.
    And I forgot to mention the far better customer service other smartphone vendors have.

    Apart from that, if the argument is getting old, then the problem exists for far too long.
    It's a fact that BB10 doesn't have enough apps.
    And no, the Amazon deal isn't a real solution. It's just a little band-aid.

    No matter how old the argument is getting, it's a reason for smartphone customers not buying BlackBerries.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 08-09-14 at 09:56 AM.
    08-09-14 08:51 AM
  16. TheoRadu's Avatar
    Do you understand what a global marketshare of 0.5% means?
    Do you understand the concept of opportunity costs? (it means that a carrier loses money when he stocks and displays the Z30 instead of a phone people actually want to buy)

    Remember when I said that CB isn't exactly representative?

    Can you actually prove that the demand was higher than anticipated? Because BlackBerry's marketshare with BB10 and their financial position, don't seem to indicate that at all.
    Wouldn't they come out and say, that the demand was higher than expected, as a positive publicity message?




    So a reduction of about 34% is "almost the same"?
    530 pound at the introduction and 350 pound now. That's roughly 34% less.

    The Galaxy S5 got introduced for 550 pounds (on Amazon) and I can get it for 459.9 pounds now.
    This is a reduction of roughly 17%.

    Yeah, totally comparable.
    Man, you're hilarious.



    I didn't only specify apps, I talked about the whole package.
    And I forgot to mention the far better customer service other smartphone vendors have.

    Apart from that, if the argument is getting old, then the problem exists for far too long.
    It's a fact that BB10 doesn't have enough apps.
    And no, the Amazon deal isn't a real solution. It's just a little band-aid.

    No matter how old the argument is getting, it's a reason for smartphone customers not buying BlackBerries.

    Posted via CB10
    You're obviously looking for a fight and I'm really not in the mood.

    I never said BlackBerry reached their targets with the Z30, of course they didn't. I only said that networks and mobile phone shops stopped caring about BlackBerry users and underestimated the demand (here in the UK at least). Obviously it didn't affect them too much since that particular group of people wasn't that big in the first place.
    And market share is completely irrelevant when it comes to the value of a product. A niche product will always have a small market share.

    The Galaxy S5 was only released 3 months ago. That's why I said the depreciation figure is comparable. How much will an S5 be in 7 months from now?

    Apps are not such a big issue anymore with 10.2.1. Plus, many services will move back where they belong: the browser.

    Posted via CB10
    BroncoVAL likes this.
    08-09-14 12:34 PM
  17. chalx's Avatar
    And I wish that people would finally understand that the Qwerty form factor is one of the least desired in the market.
    Sub 1% marketshare last year...




    You didn't think that it's insulting to lump academics together with "hipsters and the like"?

    You didn't know, that students who are apparently able to afford a 999$ MacBook, should be a targeted demographic?

    You didn't realise, that the students of today, could very well decide about what devices will be employed in an enterprise from tomorrow?

    You didn't recognise the fact, that students are one of the groups who write A LOT?

    Well, I do hate hipsters and teenagers though...




    Yes and no.
    It can be a viable business model to sell for a high price, especially because the demand is low.

    Compared to the overall market size, something like the Bagger 298 has virtually 0 demand.
    So if you want to produce and sell it for a nice profit, it MUST be EXPENSIVE.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagger_293




    1) COMPLETELY WRONG and a HUGE fail in terms of logic.

    If BlackBerry has unsold inventory, because they produced too much and therefore couldn't meet the demand for their existing supply, then this is basically the definition of people not wanting the product.

    You can't find them in stores anymore, because "nobody" wants them anymore.
    Not to forget that the carriers are clients well. If BlackBerry expected a higher demand from their customers (carriers in this case) but they refused to buy it, what do you think that means???
    (yes, it means that the number of unsold phones is relevant)




    This is a half-truth....
    Saying that BlackBerry is the only one who makes those devices and that the supply is therefore limited is not wrong.
    But it's a huge strawman.

    It becomes wrong though, when we look at the numbers of sold and unsold BlackBerries.
    BlackBerry has exactly 0 problems to satisfy the current demand, which means that the supply isn't limited.
    There are more BlackBerries out there, than people willing to buy them.




    Well, this is correct.
    But we have exactly NO IDEA how big the demand for a Passport will be.
    If you want to say, that a lot of people have been vocal to buy one on here...
    Then I would say that going by what is posted in here, the Z30/Z10/PlayBook/Q10/Q5/Storm outsell the iPhone.




    I ask that probably daily by now (not only you obviously) but: do you think that companies are able to make the profits they do, because they waste all of their earned cash on overpriced products?

    Or in other words:
    It's totally ridiculous to say that because an enterprise can afford it, that said enterprise will throw money down the drain for their electronic gear.
    Usually IT equipment is exactly two things: As cheap as possible and as expensive as necessary.

    There's a reason why the CURVE found its way into so many enterprises... Yes, it's because it didn't cost a 650$.




    Nope.
    The Passport will be a phone for everyone who wants a physical keyboard, without a tiny screen or a useless toolbelt.

    The Passport is aimed at the consumer as well, not only the enterprise customer.
    It's much more of a consumer device than you think.




    The Z3 costs too much for a low-range device.
    When you look against what smartphones it competes, you can get faaaar better phones for the same price.

    It is however, a step into the right direction.
    I was actually pretty pleased with what the phone represents: BlackBerry understanding the need to adress lower price points.




    Another thing I apparently need to say at least once a day:
    If a physician or an architect uses a Passport for his projects/work instead of a 10 inch iPad/15 inch ultra book, he/she does it WRONG.

    And as was said before, an enterprise doesn't buy uselessly expensive IT equipment.
    Those are bought on a pretty tight budget.

    Not to forget, I can buy 2 iPad minis for the price of one Passport.
    And even though the iPad mini isn't great for CAD drawings or X-Ray scans, it's still better than the Passport.




    Omg, honestly, you have no idea how funny this post is for me.

    You really believe that smartphone customers (seen as an aggregate) want the physical keyboard back???





    They still have a 40% gross margin though...
    And that's what you are ignoring.





    Yep, BlackBerry controls the supply, but the supply is higher than the demand, so it actually works against your thesis. You seem to have misunderstood something there.

    Also, knowing about the graph you talk, is really Economics 101. I learned about that the 1 hour I went to the U.
    So yeah, I am not impressed.




    For someone who totally misinterpreted the supply/demand situation BlackBerry is in, you really shouldn't play the economics professor.

    Now thinking about what you said in the "I support BlackBerry and I buy shares thread", you should just stay away from economics.

    PS: I will very probably buy a Passport.

    Posted via CB10
    08-09-14 02:56 PM
  18. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    ^ You like my post that much, that you just wanted to quote it?

    Posted via CB10
    08-09-14 04:37 PM
  19. chalx's Avatar
    ^ You like my post that much, that you just wanted to quote it?

    Posted via CB10


    i was trying to quote part of your post and add a comment from Tapatalk for WP, but it freeze...
    anyway, corporate is not a gold mine waiting to be exploited. its really hard to sell anything to corporate customers and its often sold far beyond starting price after a hard negotiations.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    08-09-14 05:07 PM
  20. gokulesh's Avatar
    There is more supply than demand for all BB10 phones. So once again price isn't justified.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    Prove it.

    Posted via CB10
    08-09-14 05:54 PM
  21. ezrunner's Avatar
    Oh blackberry chooses contract pricing?
    Didn't know.

    Posted via CB10
    BlackBerry sells devices to carriers, depending on deal carriers get different pricing, carriers determine pricing from there. Anyone who thinks otherwise should smack themselves in the head with a hammer!

    Posted via CB10
    08-09-14 06:57 PM
  22. crazigee's Avatar
    BlackBerry sells devices to carriers, depending on deal carriers get different pricing, carriers determine pricing from there. Anyone who thinks otherwise should smack themselves in the head with a hammer!

    Posted via CB10
    Not entirely true at all. BlackBerry selects the price they sell it to the carrier for. While that impacts the full and contract price the carrier is the one that decides those. The contract price is based on how much the carrier thinks they can get for the phone at that particular time based on supply and demand. That's why the contract prices changes frequently.

    Some of the promotions offers are based on direct incentives from the manufacturers, but most of the time it's just pure supply and demand. It's the max the carrier thinks they can get for phone without driving away customers. Plain and simple.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    08-09-14 09:53 PM
  23. ezrunner's Avatar
    Let's sat Verizon buys 100k and ATT buys 1 Million, ATT will get better pricing, ultimately the carrier has say on what they charge for a device. I've seen where manufacturer offers incentives for reduced pricing and it wasn't passed down to the consumer.

    Posted via CB10
    08-09-14 10:01 PM
  24. bmorgan67's Avatar
    People seem to forget that BlackBerry is concentrating on the business market. The passport won't be cheap and it shouldn't be. They are not trying to sell a **** load of these. They are trying to make money off each hand set. Margin not volume.

    Don't get me wrong, they would love to sell a **** load but that's not what they are expecting.

    My fingers are crossed that this phone is the start of a turn around in their hand set business.

    BlackBerry was a business phone that caught on with consumers. That meant they didn't have to market the product. People found out about BlackBerry from word of mouth and from business users. There will be some marketing of the passport but it will be directed toward business people with the hope that the consumer follows because the product is different and better than the current batch of smartphones.



    Posted via CB10
    Japrax7 likes this.
    08-09-14 11:04 PM
  25. crazigee's Avatar
    Let's sat Verizon buys 100k and ATT buys 1 Million, ATT will get better pricing, ultimately the carrier has say on what they charge for a device. I've seen where manufacturer offers incentives for reduced pricing and it wasn't passed down to the consumer.

    Posted via CB10
    Absolutely right.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    08-09-14 11:14 PM
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