1. JakeTheCat's Avatar
    You see, the problem once again is in the premise: BlackBerry is dead/dying/sucks/incompetent/etc. and altering the facts to suit that narrative. The article used as the premise for this whole thread states BlackBerry "acknowledged in the filing that far fewer of them than expected had decided to purchase the software and related services after testing it." That's not exactly true. The quote presents the situation as a decision and the decision has gone against BlackBerry. While that may ultimately prove to be the case, the actual filling said nothing about decisions falling short of expectations but rather about timing being slower than expectations. The exact wording from the filling was: "a slower than anticipated rate of adoption of the BES platform". My tweens would like to appear more mature but there is a world of difference between saying "they will never be adults" and "it is happening slower than they would like".
    Omnitech and Vorkosigan like this.
    10-02-13 02:40 PM
  2. NYC10065's Avatar
    The article in question did not comment on the effectiveness of BES10. Whether BES10 is the most effective product available today is, frankly, of no relevance to what the article disclosed.

    It did report on BBRY's own disclosure which revealed that the conversion from test servers to installed servers is not as strong as BBRY expected.

    We can certainly debate the nuances of the words chosen by BBRY in their disclosure to the markets but based on their past record, BBRY's tendency has been to use overly optimistic language to describe sales/shipments/installations rather than being conservative.

    In other words, when BBRY has said "showers", it really means "heavy downpour".

    When BBRY has said "partly cloudy", it really means "bring an umbrella".

    When BBRY has said "windy", it really means "Hurricane Katrina".

    Beyond the information revealed in this disclosure (that the much vaunted BES installations are not as positive as previously believed) is the credibility gap that has become a sad reality with BBRY. They can't seem to get their story straight and far too often, they have raised expectations only to fall far short.

    In this case, the BES10 installations disclosure is particularly important since BBRY itself and its purported white knight (Prem Watsa) have staked the company's future on enterprise. Perhaps both are banking on stability to help with BES10 installations but it is clear from BBRY's own disclosure that BES10 has failed to meet internal objectives.
    10-02-13 03:16 PM
  3. iggypop's Avatar
    I installed BES10 at my last job myself. We had a active BES support subscription so the upgrade cost nothing. Transfer of licenses was free. BB7 to BB10 upgrade costs were minimal. We use virtual servers, so no server costs. The only cost was my time. If you use consultants to install/migrate, it will cost you a ton regardless of the MDM you go to. That's my 2 cents.

    Posted via CB10
    Omnitech, Kendall Oei and undone like this.
    10-02-13 03:17 PM
  4. DaedalusIcarusHelios's Avatar
    BES 10 is easy to install and very cheap. I set it up myself to test with my Z10, and I liked balance so much I bought my own $19 annual CAL (my company doesn't care about managing devices so it's a free-for-all, unfortunately).
    Omnitech likes this.
    10-02-13 03:21 PM
  5. ankush77's Avatar
    every thing is getting cold actually
    10-02-13 03:26 PM
  6. cgk's Avatar
    The funny thing is that even crackberry ran an article the other day that was effectively "BES 10 isn't so hot after all" so the NYT is just following in their wake. Actually a lot of things the Crackberry team are saying are things that will get you called troll in the forum...
    10-02-13 03:40 PM
  7. anon1727506's Avatar
    BES 10 is easy to install and very cheap. I set it up myself to test with my Z10, and I liked balance so much I bought my own $19 annual CAL (my company doesn't care about managing devices so it's a free-for-all, unfortunately).
    You and about 20,000 other people....


    I know a half dozen people that played with the free installation months ago. None that bought into it at the time.... the CAL were much more the $19 at that time.

    If all I need is a virtual server, free install of BES10 and a $19 CAL... I'd pay that for Balance.
    10-02-13 03:44 PM
  8. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    You and about 20,000 other people....


    I know a half dozen people that played with the free installation months ago. None that bought into it at the time.... the CAL were much more the $19 at that time.

    If all I need is a virtual server, free install of BES10 and a $19 CAL... I'd pay that for Balance.
    That is all you need.
    10-02-13 03:46 PM
  9. Omnitech's Avatar
    Your own experience may have been a peachy keen one, but it's irrelevant. You can trot out all kinds of arguments and justifications and benefits and what have you that you believe BES 10 has...

    Yes, so when all the armchair experts here get interrupted for a second while someone with actual ONSITE EXPERIENCE with BES10 chimes in to bring some actual in-the-trenches perspective to the discussion, they get told their experience and knowledge is "irrelevant".

    Gotcha.

    There's no doubt BlackBerry has a tough road to hoe with their enterprise business, but it gets really really old listening to the same negative nellies jump into every.single.discussion that discusses the prospects of the company just to pile on, thank every post that suggests the end is nigh, and perpetuate the wailing around here.

    Personally I think Blackberry should not abandon the consumer market, because nowadays it is the consumer market that drives the enterprise market, if nothing else because of company "name recognition" happening primarily in the mass consumer space first. (Not a fan of that personally, but it is what it is)
    10-02-13 03:59 PM
  10. anon1727506's Avatar
    That is all you need.
    Count me as 25,001... Downloading the trial now.


    We need a new thread "I support BlackBerry, I downloaded and installed a BES10 Test Server!"
    10-02-13 04:01 PM
  11. Gnomesane's Avatar
    And BES10 is really designed to manage BlackBerry 10 devices, if you are going to be a BB10 only shop it will be the best chocie by far.

    But BOYD, and TABLETS have made that almost an impossibility.

    Legacy BBOS devices require a separate server that BES10 can oversee..
    Iphone and Android require 3rd party plug-in to allow management - and by all accounts do not provide very many options or capabilities. Not sure what happened to providing BB Balance like containers on these devices.... ?

    BES10 is expensive - if you need that level of security, you pay for it. If you don't, you'll probably go with other MDM systems that fit your needs and budget better.
    And once again, it looks like BlackBerry may be pricing themselves out of the market. Sigh... I did hear that they dropped the client license to $14 from $99? Maybe that will help...

    Here's a question that maybe someone here can answer? BES 10 is for organizations to serve their employees (A buddy of mine has Balance, and he likes it but complains he has to enter a separate password for his work profile). Anyway, I'm curious as to why BlackBerry wouldn't consider selling licenses to individual users to access BES 10 through BlackBerry proper? Anyone who's interested could have full encrypted email, et al.

    Small businesses who can't afford / be bothered to set up their own BES 10 server could just buy in on an annual subscription. On the surface (to a layman like myself), it seems like a workable idea, and a potential service revenue generator. So what's the flaw in my logic, that I'm missing here?

    Microsoft is already heading that route with Office 365... Why doesn't BlackBerry embrace small and medium sized business by offering this service? Hey, wouldn't they kind of fit the definition of prosumer?

    EDIT: Just read above it's $19, not $14...
    Last edited by Gnomesane; 10-02-13 at 05:11 PM.
    10-02-13 05:00 PM
  12. THBW's Avatar
    Ah...so if that is true...they are...hooped. Supporting bb10 is, obviously, extremely low or nonexistant priority for these companies.....they need the ios/android support to be competitive.
    I guess you missed the memo that iOS and Android are supported.
    10-02-13 05:36 PM
  13. the_sleuth's Avatar
    BlackBerry mobile device management business is entirely based on its ability to manage BlackBerry devices, and its cross-platform management is much less well established than those of major competitors like MobileIron and AirWatch,

    BlackBerry Makes Risky Bet on Services
    BlackBerry to Focus on Selling Smartphone Services to Businesses
    Good read:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...html#printMode

    Problem is that it isn't true. BES10 manages BB10 devices, Playbooks, iOS and Android devices. BES10 also has the ability to hook into BES5 and BESEX. They use the same APIs as all the other MDM providers for iOS and Android and have the ability to do secure containers. It really is the only full MDM solution out there.
    theflew likes this.
    10-02-13 06:07 PM
  14. JakeTheCat's Avatar
    Now you see, that's just the thing. The title of the thread is "BES isn't so hot after all" but now you claim how good BES10 actually is has no relevance.

    There is no nuance: The opposite of "decided to purchase" is "decided not to purchase" and that is not at all what BlackBerry reported.

    You have a laundry list of BlackBerry's broken promises about the weather but didn't provide a single concrete example of something BlackBerry has explicitly said in a regulatory filling that was false. Next time list those (direct quotes, please).

    I can't speak to what your expectations were with respect to any product or service, nor how you came to expect so much, but you have to understand the concept of forward looking statements and appreciate when candor is called for. There is no need to twist that into anything - real or expected - worse than it is.

    The article in question did not comment on the effectiveness of BES10. Whether BES10 is the most effective product available today is, frankly, of no relevance to what the article disclosed.

    It did report on BBRY's own disclosure which revealed that the conversion from test servers to installed servers is not as strong as BBRY expected.

    We can certainly debate the nuances of the words chosen by BBRY in their disclosure to the markets but based on their past record, BBRY's tendency has been to use overly optimistic language to describe sales/shipments/installations rather than being conservative.

    In other words, when BBRY has said "showers", it really means "heavy downpour".

    When BBRY has said "partly cloudy", it really means "bring an umbrella".

    When BBRY has said "windy", it really means "Hurricane Katrina".

    Beyond the information revealed in this disclosure (that the much vaunted BES installations are not as positive as previously believed) is the credibility gap that has become a sad reality with BBRY. They can't seem to get their story straight and far too often, they have raised expectations only to fall far short.

    In this case, the BES10 installations disclosure is particularly important since BBRY itself and its purported white knight (Prem Watsa) have staked the company's future on enterprise. Perhaps both are banking on stability to help with BES10 installations but it is clear from BBRY's own disclosure that BES10 has failed to meet internal objectives.
    10-02-13 07:21 PM
  15. mset's Avatar
    All the media just want to catch reader's eyeballs by posting negative news again and again. I guess you can't really blame them as it's their job.
    Right. So you don't think the media focus on bad BBRY news has anything to do with the fact that all the news coming out over the past 5 weeks has been bad?

    What's that? There has been a lot of good news that the media has been purposely ignoring because of their bad-news bias? Oh, okay. Can you provide 3 examples please?
    10-02-13 08:13 PM
  16. mset's Avatar
    There's no doubt BlackBerry has a tough road to hoe with their enterprise business, but it gets really really old listening to the same negative nellies jump into every.single.discussion that discusses the prospects of the company just to pile on, thank every post that suggests the end is nigh, and perpetuate the wailing around here.
    I was wondering where you've been, Omni. Maybe you've just been doing your usual thing helping out on the tech side and not descending into this fray : )

    You are absolutely right about the consumer market driving the enterprise market. The uncertainty within Waterloo is made evident by their conflicting press releases/statements about the way forward for their handset business.

    It must be hard to take for true fans of the firm but from where I sit, most of the piling on is done in response to posts like this, which tend to make me question our education system and its performance over the past 20 or so years

    "Tools not toys, anyone who needs Instagram is an *****"

    "Anyone who wants an app should just sideload it"

    "The main problem BBRY had was marketing"

    "The original Storm performed at a level that would surpass many phones today"

    "TH purposely tanked the firm to get his $55MM parachute"

    "BB10 is a brand new OS - you can't expect it to compete with iOS or Android"

    "If BB10 doesn't have a banking app for your bank, change your bank or stop whining"

    "It's the media that's responsible for BBRY's problems"

    "Mine's not doing that"

    And so on.
    10-02-13 08:33 PM
  17. NYC10065's Avatar
    Now you see, that's just the thing. The title of the thread is "BES isn't so hot after all" but now you claim how good BES10 actually is has no relevance.
    The title of the thread is in direct contrast to comments from BBRY in their Q2 results press release wherein they state: "we continue to see confidence from our customers through the increasing penetration of BES10" which is a far cry from their SEC filing which states: "delays in the launch of certain functionality of the BES 10 platform and alternative competitor products in the market have resulted in a slower than anticipated rate of adoption of the BES 10 platform by enterprise customers".

    The contrast is a press release which expresses "confidence" and an SEC filing which describes "slower than anticipated rate of adoption" which is not insignificant.

    There is no nuance: The opposite of "decided to purchase" is "decided not to purchase" and that is not at all what BlackBerry reported.
    I agree that that is not the wording used at all by BBRY in their filing but I do believe that any reasonable person would interpret "slower than anticipated rate of adoption" to mean that sales have been slower than what they had internally projected which would mean that some/many/most of those testing BES10 have "decided not to purchase". Whether that "decision not to purchase" is permanent or "at this time" is debatable but there is no ambiguity in my mind (and in the mind of the NYT reporter) that language such as "slower than anticipated rate of adoption" is in any way, shape or form indicative of increased "confidence".

    You have a laundry list of BlackBerry's broken promises about the weather but didn't provide a single concrete example of something BlackBerry has explicitly said in a regulatory filling that was false. Next time list those (direct quotes, please).
    At no time have I suggested that BBRY has made false declarations in their filings or press releases. If they had done so, they would be subject to sanctions and I am certainly not in any way suggesting that they are misleading investors or the market with their filings. What I am suggesting, however, is that we have seen BBRY use creative language to lead the audience to believe that the situation is good when it is not. There are several examples of this but one which I recall most clearly is the following quote:

    "We have very, very good first signs already after the launch in the UK...We expect several tens of millions of units." (Thorsten Heins, National Post, April 29, 2013).

    We all know how many BB10 devices have sold so far this year and it is certainly nowhere near "tens of millions of units".

    Other examples include Mr Heins' boast about 100,000+ apps at launch which was also somewhat questionnable since we have since learned that approximately 40% of the apps were authored by a single firm and many of the apps were not particularly popular or useful. Was Mr Heins' wrong? No, because, indeed, 100,000+ apps were available when BB10 launched. But most reasonable individuals would conclude that many/most of those 100,000+ apps were somewhat useful and not merely the work of an enthusiastic app developer to artificially boost the numbers.

    Are these in regulatory filings? Absolutely not but I also did not suggest that BBRY's regulatory filings were erroneous. What I do believe and it is only my opinion is that Mr Heins, BBRY spokespersons and their press commentary and press releases attempt to spin a more positive picture than one that exists.

    When Mr Heins uses language in a public forum or in media comments like "tens of millions of units", most reasonable individuals believe that he is making those statements as a result of his personal knowledge of the device's sales performance. Yes, at no time did Mr Heins indicate a timeframe for those sales to occur -- perhaps he meant that it would take decades to reach the "tens of millions" of sales. But "tens of millions" generally means a number greater than twenty million. Are we anywhere near 20 million BB10 sales and is there any prospect of hitting that number anytime soon given what has been disclosed so far? This quote was taken not 4 years ago but 6 months ago. Perhaps I am being unrealistic in my optimism stemming from Mr Heins' comments because he may have, frankly, meant that at the end of the day, there will be "tens of millions" of devices sold.

    I can't speak to what your expectations were with respect to any product or service, nor how you came to expect so much, but you have to understand the concept of forward looking statements and appreciate when candor is called for. There is no need to twist that into anything - real or expected - worse than it is.
    I am certainly not twisting anything as regards to expectations and I am fully aware of the strict rules surrounding forward looking statements in both regulatory filings like an MD&A and a financial results press release.

    I am confident that BBRY has employed skilled and knowledgeable legal counsel to advise them on their use of these statements and I am in no way suggesting that the language used is contrary to any of BBRY's disclosure rules or obligations including those relating to forward looking statements. I am merely reinforcing the point made by the NY Times -- a reputable newspaper -- which stated:

    "While the company has repeatedly boasted about the number of corporations that have downloaded its new corporate server software, it acknowledged in the filing that far fewer of them than expected had decided to purchase the software and related services after testing it."

    I agree with the NY Times' interpretation of the statements contained in the BBRY Q2 press release and their Q2 MD&A. I believe that most reasonable persons would come to the same conclusion as the NY Times. I don't think that it is unfair to describe the words in the Q2 press release as being a "boast" nor do I believe that is is unfair to describe the words in the MD&A as an "acknowledgement...that far fewer [customers] had decided to purchase the software...after testing it."

    The characterization that there is a disconnect between the two statements in the two documents was not mine alone but rather shared by the NY Times.

    Thanks for your comments and the opportunity to clarify my perspective of these matters.
    Last edited by NYC10065; 10-02-13 at 09:26 PM. Reason: Typos
    mset, cgk, Etios and 1 others like this.
    10-02-13 09:11 PM
  18. Gnomesane's Avatar
    The title of the thread...

    SNIP
    I'd love to see you dedicate the same micro analysis to Apple and Google that you do to BlackBerry!

    Let's be honest, none of these companies are pro consumer AKA prosumer...

    Personally I think Google and Apple are no better than BlackBerry when it comes to their concern. No?

    Just throwing that out... My gut tells me that none of them give a rat's a-- about the end user so it's kinda funny that we're attacking one another over their corporate, protected property...
    10-02-13 09:24 PM
  19. The Big Picture's Avatar
    BES10 is now backward compatible:

    http://n4bb.com/blackberry-enterpris...1-3-available/



    Q10-Z10-iP5
    Omnitech likes this.
    10-02-13 09:26 PM
  20. NYC10065's Avatar
    I'd love to see you dedicate the same micro analysis to Apple and Google that you do to BlackBerry!

    Let's be honest, none of these companies are pro consumer AKA prosumer...

    Personally I think Google and Apple are no better than BlackBerry when it comes to their concern. No?

    Just throwing that out... My gut tells me that none of them give a rat's a-- about the end user so it's kinda funny that we're attacking one another over their corporate, protected property...
    I didn't spend too much time on this at all -- I simply read the newspapers and recall statements made since I have been both a loyal customer as well as a shareholder of BBRY's.

    I don't recall the same level of "disconnectedness" in public statements by Apple or Google executives and their reported financial performances but I also don't recall Apple or Google ever making a statement like iOS is "outdated" (T. Heins, Mar 20, 2013) or that tablets would be "dead" in five years (T. Heins, Apr 20, 2013). I believe those types of statements reveal a certain degree of arrogance which is perfectly fine and even admirably IF that arrogance is matched by performance.
    10-02-13 09:33 PM
  21. Gnomesane's Avatar
    BES10 is now backward compatible:

    BlackBerry Enterprise Service 10.1.3 Now Available - N4BB

    Q10-Z10-iP5
    And that's a good thing!

    Going forward? Best thing BlackBerry LTD. should do is to remove themselves from the spotlight and work on the platform in the background. Let the rest of the world write them off as dead. Who the F--- cares.

    Let Apple and Google (Samsung/HTC/LG/Sony/etc) take up the slack as the next media target...

    Let the media feed on them for a while. They deserve one another.
    10-02-13 09:33 PM
  22. Gnomesane's Avatar
    I didn't spend too much time on this at all -- I simply read the newspapers and recall statements made since I have been both a loyal customer as well as a shareholder of BBRY's.

    I don't recall the same level of "disconnectedness" in public statements by Apple or Google executives and their reported financial performances but I also don't recall Apple or Google ever making a statement like iOS is "outdated" (T. Heins, Mar 20, 2013) or that tablets would be "dead" in five years (T. Heins, Apr 20, 2013). I believe those types of statements reveal a certain degree of arrogance which is perfectly fine and even admirably IF that arrogance is matched by performance.
    Really? You don't recall Apple dropping Google Maps on iOS 6? When they removed Google Maps from the Apple Store? That was a pretty big deal. And to be fair, that was a HUGE fu-kup on Apple's part. I'm not sure how you could spin it in a positive light... On the other hand, it was a massive propaganda coup for Google who ended up looking like the underdog and a saviour.

    My point is that BlackBerry isn't the only company that makes dumb moves. The Apple Maps clusterf-ck was a big deal. Fortunately for Apple the media is focused on BlackBerry at the moment so they got a pass.

    But what happens if/when BlackBerry disappears?

    The media will pick their next target. My guess is Apple. But that's just a guess.
    10-02-13 10:06 PM
  23. NYC10065's Avatar
    Really? You don't recall Apple dropping Google Maps on iOS 6? When they removed Google Maps from the Apple Store? That was a pretty big deal. And to be fair, that was a HUGE fu-kup on Apple's part. I'm not sure how you could spin it in a positive light... On the other hand, it was a massive propaganda coup for Google who ended up looking like the underdog and a saviour.

    My point is that BlackBerry isn't the only company that makes dumb moves. The Apple Maps clusterf-ck was a big deal. Fortunately for Apple the media is focused on BlackBerry at the moment so they got a pass.

    But what happens if/when BlackBerry disappears?

    The media will pick their next target. My guess is Apple. But that's just a guess.
    I certainly recall the Apple Maps screw up but I was referring to financial expectations created by public comments by Apple executives or press releases.
    richardat and JeepBB like this.
    10-02-13 10:10 PM
  24. badiyee's Avatar
    It's not really. It can now be on the same system as BES 5, and there is the unified Studio, but you really do need both BES 5 and BES 10
    ah thanks for the clarification. i was informed otherwise that the new BES10 has now backdated support to legacy devices.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9800 using Tapatalk
    10-02-13 10:54 PM
  25. richardat's Avatar
    I certainly recall the Apple Maps screw up but I was referring to financial expectations created by public comments by Apple executives or press releases.
    He's being a silly billy anyways. The maps gaffe was hardly on the same level as many of BB's issues. After dragging it out for years, and then, at the 11th hour (to say the least) suddenly announcing that it is actually impossible to put the OS they claimed all along was ultimately coming for the PB??! LOL....comparing that to a maps app that actually works quite well, and has a lot of advanced features - but which provides buggy info sometimes? Silly...now that was a case of media-tempest-teapot, but having said that, Apple themselves set the standards so they can hardly complain when they don't live up to it! (I was personally amazed they even tried....I was impressed how close they got, and the features they baked in! But to me, it was absolute folly to think they could match a mature version of Google's maps which have been constantly debugged for years now!) Note as well, that the majority of ios users (at least in the imore poll) had ambivalent to positive opinions of the maps app 1 year later! I still suspect much of that info was due to database info being incorrect - and really, that should be expected (though not defended).

    In any case, as Ive written about before, the Apple response speaks volumes to customer service, mindset, and yes....arrogance. Apple - CEO quickly apologizes publicly, accepts responsibility, recommends the competitors product (a bitter pill to be sure)......I think we all know how that differs from the typical BB response.

    In any case, in terms of the financial expectations....I cannot think of examples of that kind of misleading either- certainly not as many, in as short a time, when in retrospect we know that the perpetrators were well aware of the truth.
    Poirots Progeny, mset and JeepBB like this.
    10-03-13 01:05 AM
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