03-13-15 11:23 AM
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  1. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    That's a good question. And now with BB10 cross platform software coming out by 2016, it becomes even more relevant.
    The PKB is not going cross platform, and that is probably why he still has a Bold 9900. I'll go out on a limb and say he doesn't even know what the hub is.
    03-11-15 11:01 PM
  2. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Huh?
    99.9% of smartphone users buy all touch by now.
    Most of the phones sold in the "developed" world, are higher mid-tier to flagship phones.

    There is no question if the decision to not launch a flagship touch device was incredibly stupid.
    There is also no debate about consumer buying preferences or focus groups.
    Everyone buys full touch. Emerging markets buy cheaper phones, with a new trend showing that they start to buy from local manufacturers more. While "developed" countries buy full touch, from basically everyone, as long as the phones are better than the midrange (economic constraints aren't a major issue, because of the way phone contracts and subsidies work "here").

    It's pretty simple, to be honest:
    Neither did John Chen listen to his customers, nor to potential customers, with the exception of the Leap. The Leap is definitely an enterprise fleet phone with bulk purchasing discounts. Everything else though, has absolutely nothing to do with buyer preferences.
    Sliders are even less liked than keyboard phones... And "Nobody" likes those already.
    I'm as disappointed as you are at the lack of high end touch, but with some perspective I get why Chen didn't make one. It's the same reasons why I think that an Android based handset is a bad idea... no real positive differentiator in a crowded sea of touch screens with better HW and better ecosystems. BB10 isn't yet a differentiator (if ever). Chen is likely hoping that the slider will appeal to both sets (PKB and VKB). Assuming the phone is designed well, then he may be right in his thinking. I will reserve judgement until I can pick one up and play with it a bit. I will also add that I recently got a work issued Classic. In my very humble opinion, the PKB on this phone blows the Bold 9900 out of the water. It is a joy to type on. The keys are oh so clicky and feel and sound great when pounding away. I love this phone and the keyboard. The point of my story is that PKB's still do have a place and can win favour even with ardent touch supporters like myself. The key is that they need to be well designed and put together. The Classic is just that.
    03-11-15 11:21 PM
  3. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Except the z10 was the best selling BB10 device.
    I can guarantee the number of BB10 touch users and is far greater than keyboard phones as it stands currently, and that trend is only growing.
    Can't comment on the amount of times that people here (bb enthusiast that may be more skewed towards pkb) have already said they will not return to it after using a slab.

    Even if everything I said above is wrong, which it isin't, how crazy can Chen be to ignore an entire (perhaps the largest) segment of the market AND existing customers who are ready now for an upgrade cycle. Business 101, keep your user base first then grow.

    Absolutely baffling.
    If the touch screen is done well, it could appeal to both the VKB and PKB crowd. But it has to be elegant and sleek. If it is, he will have a winner.

    I will just add that I don't disagree with you about VKB gaining momentum. People at my work in the mid 40's crowd and up that used to love their Bolds now love their Z30's and could not imagine going back to a PKB. But as I found out recently with my work issued Classic, you can rediscover an old flame again. The PKB on the Classic is a joy to use. My favourite PKB BlackBerry to date (and 4th one). I truly hope the PKB on the slider is just like it. I will be sold if it is. Having the best of both worlds in a sleek package would be a great thing IMO.
    03-11-15 11:27 PM
  4. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Soooo, you criticize BB for "not listening to their customers" for neglecting the full-touch market, and then you dismiss their new full-touch model as an "enterprise fleet phone".

    The Leap is an affordable full-touch BlackBerry. You yourself said 99.9% of users were buying full-touch phones. Consider as well that the vast majority of buyers are getting something cheaper than a flagship model, too.

    Flagships are great to stimulate user interest, and they have high margins, but they don't grow the user base very much. THAT is what the Leap is intended for. I don't understand why people see this as a problem.

    With literally every new BB10 model that's been released, there's been some segment of the fanbase that's been unhappy. That's actually okay, because no phone is intended to please everyone.
    I'm just disappointed that they didn't price it at $199 off contract, and eventually lower it to $99 near the end of its run. The Lumia 525 helped Win phone a bit. It would be nice if BB had something similarly priced. And if they could not budge off of the $275 price, then an updated processor (even marginally better than the Z30) would have been welcome.

    But overall I understand the need for this device and don't disagree with you.
    03-11-15 11:30 PM
  5. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Oh you mean the phone that launched with beta software and year old specs at flagship pricing? Or the second flagship phone they launched again with lower specs at flagship pricing and while the for sale sign was up?

    The only thing we know for sure is that BlackBerry has botched both all touch device launches, just like they botched the PlayBook launch.

    Posted via CB10
    They owe it to themselves to try one more high end touch, but maybe the timing is not right yet? The app situation is still a mess, especially now with BB devices being blacklisted by devs on Amazon. It's hard to advertise a touch screen phone when there is no legitimate way for non-tech Joe's to get apps like instagram, netflix, etc.
    03-11-15 11:33 PM
  6. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Valid points, but also John Chen's issue to clean up. Thorsten had the inventory glut. Thorsten launched the Z30. Thorsten launched BlackBerry 10 and Thorsten put the for sale sign up.

    So Chen took the sale sign down, and new devices were keyboard based because a) he had a glut of Thorsten's Z10s to get rid of and b) a brand new Z30 that Thorsten had just launched before he arrived.



    Sure. But I wasn't talking about that. Just that I think people misconstrue BlackBerry focusing on keyboard devices under Chen purely as "Chen hating touch screens". I think there are some other factors at play here, which I've listed above.

    I too think he needs a good upper end touch screen. The fact that he didn't have one meant I went from Z10 to iPhone 6. But I also think it's not a binary thing for him. Because even if 99% of the world buys Touchscreens, 99% of BlackBerry customers do not. The trends say that he needs a touch screen. But his userbase also says he needs physical keyboards as well. To me, it's not one or the other.
    Chen doesn't hate anything. Chen likes things that he thinks will make BlackBerry money. As the CEO that is really his #1 responsibility as much as some of us may not like it.
    JeepBB likes this.
    03-11-15 11:34 PM
  7. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    He should just make a high end all touch BlackBerry 10 Device and then he would have the best VKB implementation available and only have to carry one device. He would be able to type faster on the VKB BlackBerry than a PKB model too.

    Posted via CB10
    I think this is what he is aiming for with the slider. If done right, it could serve both the VKB and PKB crowds well. I hope this is what he is banking on, and I hope he is right about it.
    kfh227 likes this.
    03-11-15 11:35 PM
  8. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Actually I cringed when he was trying to sell the "copy and paste" functionality.
    Not a sexy feature, no doubt. But incredibly useful. And I'm sure he got an earful from his long standing enterprise customers that absolutely hated the the Q10 because it had no belt.
    03-11-15 11:37 PM
  9. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    I'd use your earlier qualifier ("for some of us").

    Swype allows me to be quite accurate on a vkb.
    VKB's are great. I love the one on my Z30. But as a fairly new Classic owner, I will say that there is something about typing on a physical keyboard, especially the Classic's PKB. It really is well done. It is so clicky and just feels great. I'm very impressed with it. I truly hope the PKB on the slider is just as good. It will be nice to have the option to use either/or depending on what I am doing.
    03-11-15 11:39 PM
  10. lnichols's Avatar
    I think this is what he is aiming for with the slider. If done right, it could serve both the VKB and PKB crowds well. I hope this is what he is banking on, and I hope he is right about it.
    Well I think you can judge based by many all touch users response here, including myself, that we don't want a slider. I prefer a thinner, lighter, and larger battery all touch. I also don't want a curved screen. 100% useless feature, and then your VKB is either going to have end keys on the curves, or smush in. I'm just hoping this Samsung partnership brings a GS6 spec'd, flat, all touch, non slider device. If BlackBerry abandons the form factor, like they abandoned me on the PlayBook, then I will simply abandon them. And with a job where I will be doing some mobile integration projects soon, that will impact over 200 sites globally, it won't just be a single device sales lost.

    It is very hard to keep justifying BlackBerry because of the app situation, so will be easy to move myself, and tens of thousands of other devices to a popular all touch platform that can be secured with or without a BES. Oh and the device that the higher ups want doesn't have a PKB at all, it has a home button and a large screen, and apps readily available to integrate it to the new systems. All of these people have and are using full touch for their personal devices and want that on their business device. I don't know where Chen's focus groups are from, but I'm squarely in the highly regulated industry he claims to be catering to, and know that just like out in the consumer side, 99% of the end users, including CIO level people, are wanting to see all touch devices in the future. A slider might be a compromise device for some, but most have realized they don't need it and can type just fine on a screen.

    Posted via CB10
    03-12-15 06:27 AM
  11. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Well I think you can judge based by many all touch users response here, including myself, that we don't want a slider. I prefer a thinner, lighter, and larger battery all touch. I also don't want a curved screen. 100% useless feature, and then your VKB is either going to have end keys on the curves, or smush in. I'm just hoping this Samsung partnership brings a GS6 spec'd, flat, all touch, non slider device. If BlackBerry abandons the form factor, like they abandoned me on the PlayBook, then I will simply abandon them. And with a job where I will be doing some mobile integration projects soon, that will impact over 200 sites globally, it won't just be a single device sales lost.

    It is very hard to keep justifying BlackBerry because of the app situation, so will be easy to move myself, and tens of thousands of other devices to a popular all touch platform that can be secured with or without a BES. Oh and the device that the higher ups want doesn't have a PKB at all, it has a home button and a large screen, and apps readily available to integrate it to the new systems. All of these people have and are using full touch for their personal devices and want that on their business device. I don't know where Chen's focus groups are from, but I'm squarely in the highly regulated industry he claims to be catering to, and know that just like out in the consumer side, 99% of the end users, including CIO level people, are wanting to see all touch devices in the future. A slider might be a compromise device for some, but most have realized they don't need it and can type just fine on a screen.

    Posted via CB10
    I hear you. I'm disappointed at the lack of touch device as well. I'll reserve judgement until I can actually see the slider in person. I really hope Chen knows what he is doing.
    03-12-15 07:29 AM
  12. lnichols's Avatar
    I hear you. I'm disappointed at the lack of touch device as well. I'll reserve judgement until I can actually see the slider in person. I really hope Chen knows what he is doing.
    My concern is that he is too worried about the BBOS users who don't upgrade often or care much for modern technology and ignoring the people who have been buying into the BB10 platform. Most business users who are still on BBOS are doing so because their company isn't on BES12 yet and their company isn't upgrading the device. Most consumer side are low income or live in third world areas where data usage is still too expensive to upgrade, and they haven't really released a cheap BB10 device like they had with the $100 Curves. Meanwhile millions of all touch BB10 users, yes millions, are left with nothing to upgrade to. He is leaving money on the table with those guaranteed sales IMHO.

    Posted via CB10
    03-12-15 07:48 AM
  13. MobileZen's Avatar
    My concern is that he is too worried about the BBOS users who don't upgrade often or care much for modern technology and ignoring the people who have been buying into the BB10 platform. Most business users who are still on BBOS are doing so because their company isn't on BES12 yet and their company isn't upgrading the device. Most consumer side are low income or live in third world areas where data usage is still too expensive to upgrade, and they haven't really released a cheap BB10 device like they had with the $100 Curves. Meanwhile millions of all touch BB10 users, yes millions, are left with nothing to upgrade to. He is leaving money on the table with those guaranteed sales IMHO.

    Posted via CB10
    Enterprise users, especially regulated markets are still the most loyal. My 60k+ organization was on BBOS for the longest time and been piloting BB10 and BES12. Now no longer in pilot stage and all BBOS phones have been upgraded to BB10 phones. I see a bunch of Q5s, Z10s, Q10s and Z30s. This is what Chen is banking on while monetizing value added services for better productivity and security in the enterprise.

    He's fixing what Heins and his team did wrong the last time, stretch themselves thin and completely losing focus on their bread and butter in the enterprise markets and letting competitor threats. Why cater to the fickle consumer market and your brand reputation at a low? Sounds like a recipe for failure and a short-sellers dream scenario.

    Plus if you check out Chen's interviews in recent months, he said that when the company is fully healthy, he will start targeting beyond the enterprise core clients.

    Posted via CB10
    03-12-15 08:14 AM
  14. lnichols's Avatar
    Enterprise users, especially regulated markets are still the most loyal. My 60k+ organization was on BBOS for the longest time and been piloting BB10 and BES12. Now no longer in pilot stage and all BBOS phones have been upgraded to BB10 phones. I see a bunch of Q5s, Z10s, Q10s and Z30s. This is what Chen is banking on while monetizing value added services for better productivity and security in the enterprise.

    He's fixing what Heins and his team did wrong the last time, stretch themselves thin and completely losing focus on their bread and butter in the enterprise markets and letting competitor threats. Why cater to the fickle consumer market and your brand reputation at a low? Sounds like a recipe for failure and a short-sellers dream scenario.

    Plus if you check out Chen's interviews in recent months, he said that when the company is fully healthy, he will start targeting beyond the enterprise core clients.

    Posted via CB10
    Right but two of the four phone you mention don't have an upgrade. The Leap is a side grade to the Z10. I think it will do good in Enterprise, and better than Passport and Classic will IMHO. In my 60k+ org they are now replacing BBOS with BB10. Seeing mostly Z10 and Z30 devices being selected. High end all touch aren't just for consumers, they are for Enterprise too. I'd like to see BlackBerry make the BES a SIP gateway to connect voice and Video from an IP PBX to the BBM of the phone since most of the IP PBX vendors are not making BB10 clients for their apps that do this.

    Posted via CB10
    03-12-15 09:43 AM
  15. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    Chen doesn't hate anything. Chen likes things that he thinks will make BlackBerry money. As the CEO that is really his #1 responsibility as much as some of us may not like it.
    Exactly. Love it or hate it, Chen's first and foremost goal is to keep BlackBerry alive, get it profitable and get it growing. This may mean that they lose some customers temporarily or perminantly while they focus on others.

    As I've said before, I'm on an iPhone 6. It isn't because I think the damn things cure cancer or bring world peace the way some fanboys do. It's primarily because I didn't have a Z10 successor and I didn't have some key apps I needed for my job and home life. I keep my Z10 around to keep my toe in the market. Whether or not Chen seeks to regain me as a customer will have a lot to do with whether or not he feels BlackBerry can afford to. That billion dollar write-down the last time is rightfully making him cautious.
    LuvULongTime and hpjrt like this.
    03-12-15 10:07 AM
  16. lnichols's Avatar
    Exactly. Love it or hate it, Chen's first and foremost goal is to keep BlackBerry alive, get it profitable and get it growing. This may mean that they lose some customers temporarily or perminantly while they focus on others.

    As I've said before, I'm on an iPhone 6. It isn't because I think the damn things cure cancer or bring world peace the way some fanboys do. It's primarily because I didn't have a Z10 successor and I didn't have some key apps I needed for my job and home life. I keep my Z10 around to keep my toe in the market. Whether or not Chen seeks to regain me as a customer will have a lot to do with whether or not he feels BlackBerry can afford to. That billion dollar write-down the last time is rightfully making him cautious.
    The billion dollar write down was because TH over produced an under spec'd device and released it with beta software and a price too high for the specs and limited ecosystem it came with. It was just like the PlayBook's launch. Chen has showed with the Passport that you can release a high end device in small quantities, and even though sales of it suck compared to any other phone on the market, it was profitable after the early 400k sold.

    Posted via CB10
    03-12-15 10:49 AM
  17. anon1727506's Avatar
    Best selling at full price, or at $199 and major loss? There's a major difference to BlackBerry.

    Posted via CB10
    I agree that the Z10 and even the Z30 have seem much deeper cuts than the Q devices, add in the fact that there are a lot of BlackBerry collectors that "must" own one of each (even the "Classic" after they bought a Passport). Makes it very difficult to know what really is popular among such a small user base.

    That said... there ARE a lot of Z10 owners, many of them reaching their 2 year upgrade on contract or who just want to upgrade. Just seems natural for a company to have an upgrade path for these users...
    03-12-15 11:08 AM
  18. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    The billion dollar write down was because
    Not the point. Put it in perspective. Why put out yet another touchscreen, when you already have warehouses full of the last one and your predecessor just launched a second one right before you arrived.

    People act like the dude hates Touch Screens. If that were the case, there would have been no Z3 and no Leap.
    03-12-15 11:48 AM
  19. BBPandy's Avatar
    Except the z10 was the best selling BB10 device.
    I can guarantee the number of BB10 touch users and is far greater than keyboard phones as it stands currently, and that trend is only growing.
    Can't comment on the amount of times that people here (bb enthusiast that may be more skewed towards pkb) have already said they will not return to it after using a slab.

    Even if everything I said above is wrong, which it isin't, how crazy can Chen be to ignore an entire (perhaps the largest) segment of the market AND existing customers who are ready now for an upgrade cycle. Business 101, keep your user base first then grow.

    Absolutely baffling.
    Z10 best selling BB10 phone? Didn't the Q10 out sell it 3-1? (before the massive write downs)

    Posted via CB10
    03-12-15 09:12 PM
  20. Bbnivende's Avatar
    From a developer's stats this January.

    50.2% Z10
    18.8% Q10
    15.6% Z30
    5.6% Passport
    5.2% Q5
    2.2% Z3
    1.6% Classic

    I think the results are skewed somewhat because the Z phones are more app friendly. Even so there is a remarkable lead of the Z over the Q. The counter argument is that they over produced the Z10. True , but they did eventually sell and no doubt recouped some of their write down. If the Q had been over produced and selling for $199, I am not sure the take up would have been there.

    When Chen took over, he was greeted with the decision of whether or not to come to the market with the 4.5 inch Z5. I believe he had experts tell him that the Z5 would be DOA and addition he had by then reached a deal with Foxconn around that time. This deal lead to the Z3 and now the Leap.

    I don't question BlackBerry putting out PKB models . My only concern being that the market is not that large and if he sells one model of X he takes away from his other model Y. A higher grade all touch would not affect the sales of their PKB models and visa versa.

    What I do not understand is why they don't re-engineer the high end model that is made by Foxconn for their "in-house" brand.

    InFocus launches the high-end M810 Android handset in Taiwan - GSMArena.com news

    Regardless, I am pretty sure that Foxconn has the resources to build any phone in short order and I do think that the next all touch will be 5.5 inches.


    Just for fun, have a look at "Foxconn's" version of the Z10, a 4.2 inch screened device. Sells for under $100.

    InFocus M2 gsmarena, InFocus M2 Review, InFocus M2 specs, InFocus M2 flipkart, InFocus M2 buy online, InFocus,InFocus M2,InFocus M2 Price,InFocus M2 Price in India,InFocus M2 Specifications,InFocus Mobiles,InFocus M2 With 8-Megapixel Front and Rear C
    anon1727506 and MarsupilamiX like this.
    03-13-15 11:23 AM
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