09-12-16 05:24 AM
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  1. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Oh, really? I thought BlackBerry targeted "prosumers" who would pay for premium devices. What is the new strategy this month? Whatever tripe Chen can sell to the few investors that still believe anything he says?

    Posted via CB10
    Why the rage? It's just a phone from a company that was broken and broke long before Chen got there. Blackberry was only given any money upon the hiring of Chen. No Chen, the company would be another Palm or Nortel. That's why at point great pre-Chen management listed company for sale, there were no takers. Zilch, nada, zip, nothing.....Even Fairfax backed away from their offer and offered loan only if Chen hired contingent upon acceptance before giving money. Practically a prepackaged bankruptcy without the filing. Vultures so close they were crapping on cars in Blackberry HQ parking lot.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    07-23-16 02:37 PM
  2. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    The rage is about no planned new BB10 phone releases, even though the previous ones lost money, some rail against the company with demands for marketing.
    07-23-16 03:43 PM
  3. ohaiguise's Avatar
    BB10 when it was first released really was a POS and deserved not to sell. People were screaming about how BB must release BB10 now, BBOS is dead. Yet BBOS continued to outsell BB10 for years, and until BB 10.2 it was still the better OS. Moral of the story: don't release garbage unfinished products and keep calm when everyone around you is screaming in panic.
    07-23-16 03:51 PM
  4. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    You are mixing up things. Just because they made too many and had to sell inventory at a loss does not mean that they did not sell millions and that many BB10 users would have bought a follow-up device.

    The Priv has sold about zero devices and will have no upgrade path so it appears.
    And you are comparing sales from three years ago when BlackBerry still had 70 million users and what many of us saw as a real chance at being the third platform... when most taught there would be a third and fourth platform.

    To be very honest I don't think BlackBerry will be successful with Android. Think it is a very long shot at best. But BB10's time was over, regardless of if BlackBerry took this shot with Android.

    Today the BlackBerry brand is toxic in many markets, and BlackBerry's ability to be a competitive player has been trimmed away. If the PRIV had used BB10 as the OS, I don't see it selling as many units as the Android version.
    JeepBB likes this.
    07-23-16 03:52 PM
  5. markmall's Avatar
    The rage is about no planned new BB10 phone releases, even though the previous ones lost money, some rail against the company with demands for marketing.
    It's not "rage" just because I disagree. It is very sad to see the work of so many people go to waste. Also it is sad to see such a long legacy get squandered when it still had a chance.

    Not every product line is immediately profitable. Some is not profitable for quite a while. How many years has Amazon been profitable, if it is? Did they say after year 5 in 2003 or whatever, "We're not making money on this Internet thing. We need to stop doing anything not making money right now. Let's turn all our warehouses into self-storage facilities. We can't miss with that!"

    This is not to say that BlackBerry had as much to invest in bb10 as Amazon did with its Wall Street money. But Chen had enough money to have Passports ready to sell at launch. He had enough money to market the Passport and the Classic.

    Instead, he spent $1 billion or more on buying up other discordant companies gambling on their technology rather than supporting the tech he already owned or the loyal customers that were still buying BlackBerry devices.

    Chen also spent untold millions on his Android project. Chen's marketing sense is so far off on his Android project that it could be called CEO malpractice. Who came up with the name "Priv"? Did they ask anyone outside the company what they thought of this name?

    How about question 1 in marketing: pricing strategy? Everyone on this site knew they blew this once they announced the price. How could we know this but Chen not know it?

    How about the notion of using "security" that is "not as good as Knox" as the main marketing theme? Did Chen or his minions ask a single end user about this before doing it?

    The security theme's execution is so muddled that even I -- after spending untold hours on this site -- am not sure what real advantages there are. You have a cute gauge screen that tells you how "secure" you are at any given time? Great.

    If you are not Steve Jobs, you should do a little bit of marketing studies before gambling the company. This is not Las Vegas. It was clear before that Chen thought that this company was like his little plaything -- referring to it as "I" over and over again.

    I don't own bbry stock anymore. I didn't lose money on it because I saw what was going on with Chen's lack of marketing which doomed BB10. But I want to use BB10 or a similar OS that does not spy on me. I want it to stay around.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by markmall; 07-23-16 at 06:03 PM.
    07-23-16 05:49 PM
  6. markmall's Avatar
    Why the rage? It's just a phone from a company that was broken and broke long before Chen got there. Blackberry was only given any money upon the hiring of Chen. No Chen, the company would be another Palm or Nortel. That's why at point great pre-Chen management listed company for sale, there were no takers. Zilch, nada, zip, nothing.....Even Fairfax backed away from their offer and offered loan only if Chen hired contingent upon acceptance before giving money. Practically a prepackaged bankruptcy without the filing. Vultures so close they were crapping on cars in Blackberry HQ parking lot.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    Maybe it was Chen or nothing. This is possible. This does not mean Chen's decisions have been good ones or even mediocre ones. I think they've been atrocious. I think they are the choices of someone completely out of touch with the market.

    Plenty of brands have come back from the ashes. Not this way. Re-branding is the last gasp of life for a tech company.

    Posted via CB10
    07-23-16 05:52 PM
  7. markmall's Avatar
    BB10 when it was first released really was a POS and deserved not to sell. People were screaming about how BB must release BB10 now, BBOS is dead. Yet BBOS continued to outsell BB10 for years, and until BB 10.2 it was still the better OS. Moral of the story: don't release garbage unfinished products and keep calm when everyone around you is screaming in panic.
    This is a good point. They probably should have waited. Irony is that once it was mature they cr-pped in their pants again.

    Posted via CB10
    07-23-16 05:54 PM
  8. markmall's Avatar
    And you are comparing sales from three years ago when BlackBerry still had 70 million users and what many of us saw as a real chance at being the third platform... when most taught there would be a third and fourth platform.

    To be very honest I don't think BlackBerry will be successful with Android. Think it is a very long shot at best. But BB10's time was over, regardless of if BlackBerry took this shot with Android.

    Today the BlackBerry brand is toxic in many markets, and BlackBerry's ability to be a competitive player has been trimmed away. If the PRIV had used BB10 as the OS, I don't see it selling as many units as the Android version.
    I think you are completely wrong on your last statement. A BB10 Priv would have sold far more. (How could it sell any less?) There is a relatively large (compared to Priv sales) BB10 installed base wanting a new device.

    As long as bb10 is the best OS in the world (with the app compromise) it is still the best strategic choice for BlackBerry. It's like the hot girl working in the cellar in rags. Just because she been languishing up there doesn't mean she would not outshine the plain women in the room wearing ball gowns.

    Stopping bb10 devices now was just a myopic decision I hope they reverse next year.

    Posted via CB10
    07-23-16 06:00 PM
  9. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    I am afraid that I agree that the BlackBerry brand is toxic in the US, and I think that no amount of marketing could change that, unfortunately.
    07-23-16 06:05 PM
  10. conite's Avatar
    Maybe it was Chen or nothing. This is possible. This does not mean Chen's decisions have been good ones or even mediocre ones. I think they've been atrocious. I think they are the choices of someone completely out of touch with the market.

    Plenty of brands have come back from the ashes. Not this way. Re-branding is the last gasp of life for a tech company.

    Posted via CB10
    Chen was specifically brought in to change the direction of BlackBerry away from BB10 devices which was an unmitigated disaster.

    His job was to build a software security portfolio. He has done that. BES with Good, WatchDox, SecureSmart, AdHoc.

    The Android experiment is a relatively low cost last ditch effort to remain in the device business which serves to round out their BES offering.

    If the company followed your strategy, they would be out of business already. Investing in BB10 is throwing money into a fire.
    Last edited by conite; 07-23-16 at 06:24 PM.
    TgeekB and JeepBB like this.
    07-23-16 06:14 PM
  11. brookie229's Avatar
    I am afraid that I agree that the BlackBerry brand is toxic in the US, and I think that no amount of marketing could change that, unfortunately.
    Yep, I agree. It has a toxic image. These things kind of fascinate me. You can try to find cases like Blackberry and try to compare the predicaments they get themselves into and possible ways out. It can be done as evidenced by companies like BP (with their infamous Gulf of Mexico fiasco), and perhaps the Bridgestone/Firestone problems with faulty tires resulting in rollovers and deaths. But these companies acted very quickly (relatively speaking) with cleanups and "making it right" ad campaigns. Nothing of this sort was ever done with RIM when it bungled badly with US carriers. The more time that goes by, the less chance that the general public will forgive. Sorry, I am WAY off topic.
    JeepBB likes this.
    07-23-16 06:20 PM
  12. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I think you are completely wrong on your last statement. A BB10 Priv would have sold far more. (How could it sell any less?) There is a relatively large (compared to Priv sales) BB10 installed base wanting a new device.

    As long as bb10 is the best OS in the world (with the app compromise) it is still the best strategic choice for BlackBerry. It's like the hot girl working in the cellar in rags. Just because she been languishing up there doesn't mean she would not outshine the plain women in the room wearing ball gowns.

    Stopping bb10 devices now was just a myopic decision I hope they reverse next year.

    Posted via CB10
    With no money?? This isn't some Disney cartoon. Tell you what, you're in charge of selling your idea to Wall Street, let me know how far you get....

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    07-23-16 06:25 PM
  13. Invictus0's Avatar
    It's not "rage" just because I disagree. It is very sad to see the work of so many people go to waste. Also it is sad to see such a long legacy get squandered when it still had a chance.

    Not every product line is immediately profitable. Some is not profitable for quite a while. How many years has Amazon been profitable, if it is? Did they say after year 5 in 2003 or whatever, "We're not making money on this Internet thing. We need to stop doing anything not making money right now. Let's turn all our warehouses into self-storage facilities. We can't miss with that!"

    This is not to say that BlackBerry had as much to invest in bb10 as Amazon did with its Wall Street money. But Chen had enough money to have Passports ready to sell at launch. He had enough money to market the Passport and the Classic.

    Instead, he spent $1 billion or more on buying up other discordant companies gambling on their technology rather than supporting the tech he already owned or the loyal customers that were still buying BlackBerry devices.
    BlackBerry invested resources in both. An OS that sold poorly and nearly bankrupt its company was given at least another three years worth of development, updates and new devices. There are flagships on other platforms that don't even get this much support despite being more successful.

    At the end of the day, BB10 simply couldn't meet its sales targets and no amount of marketing would change that as we got further from launch. There were many mobile OS competitors that launched alongside or later than BB10, how many are still around and doing well?
    07-23-16 07:43 PM
  14. markmall's Avatar
    I am afraid that I agree that the BlackBerry brand is toxic in the US, and I think that no amount of marketing could change that, unfortunately.
    There is only one group that it is not toxic with. It's loyal base that Chen is destroying by not giving them an upgrade device.
    07-23-16 07:47 PM
  15. markmall's Avatar
    Chen was specifically brought in to change the direction of BlackBerry away from BB10 devices which was an unmitigated disaster.

    His job was to build a software security portfolio. He has done that. BES with Good, WatchDox, SecureSmart, AdHoc.

    The Android experiment is a relatively low cost last ditch effort to remain in the device business which serves to round out their BES offering.

    If the company followed your strategy, they would be out of business already. Investing in BB10 is throwing money into a fire.
    You keep repeating this like you know it as fact. The facts do not support this at all. I do not agree that at the time Chen was brought it that it was expressly to kill BB10 and they knew that they were going to kill BB 10. Look at the timing of his start as CEO and the release multiple BB10 devices. Chen released the Passport and was active in designing and marketing the Classic, Leap and the one named after Jakharta or some city in Indonesia.

    Chen was appointed executive chairman of the board and interim CEO of BlackBerry Ltd in November 2013.

    The BlackBerry Classic was unveiled in December 17, 2014 and it runs BlackBerry 10 operating system.

    If Chen was expected to "build a software security portfolio" then he would be the first CEO ever to turn an electronics company into a venture capital fund. It also would probably be illegal as a fraud on the investors who had no idea that Blackberry was becoming a venture capital fund.

    What do you think my strategy is exactly? We have different opinions about how the market would accept a properly positioned BB10. (Respectfully, you probably know much less about marketing than I do even if you know more about technology.)

    Chen's slow death is much worse than continuing to put out compelling products and risking a quicker BK. The difference is that if you take a chance you might become very profitable. The odds of Chen's little software companies becoming very profitable are much smaller than BB10 catching on after making the right moves.
    07-23-16 07:57 PM
  16. markmall's Avatar
    BlackBerry invested resources in both. An OS that sold poorly and nearly bankrupt its company was given at least another three years worth of development, updates and new devices. There are flagships on other platforms that don't even get this much support despite being more successful.

    At the end of the day, BB10 simply couldn't meet its sales targets and no amount of marketing would change that as we got further from launch. There were many mobile OS competitors that launched alongside or later than BB10, how many are still around and doing well?
    The "support" was a joke. You couldn't even buy devices at the launches. The Passport sticks out in my mind because there was media buzz about it. Then you couldn't test one out or even buy one sight unseen for MONTHS. Months! Either very poor logistics or they were so spooked about making too many that they would not put in a big enough order. Not a single ad, billboard, movie appearance, nada. It's like they were trying to hide the existence of the phone.

    I count one other small OS competitor. Windows phone. It's still around. It's not doing well, but it's not as good as BB10. MSFT might kill Windows phone and be correct in doing so. They see possible future success so they stay in the game. But BB10 is just better technology.
    07-23-16 08:04 PM
  17. conite's Avatar
    You keep repeating this like you know it as fact. The facts do not support this at all. I do not agree that at the time Chen was brought it that it was expressly to kill BB10 and they knew that they were going to kill BB 10. Look at the timing of his start as CEO and the release multiple BB10 devices. Chen released the Passport and was active in designing and marketing the Classic, Leap and the one named after Jakharta or some city in Indonesia.

    Chen was appointed executive chairman of the board and interim CEO of BlackBerry Ltd in November 2013.

    The BlackBerry Classic was unveiled in December 17, 2014 and it runs BlackBerry 10 operating system.

    If Chen was expected to "build a software security portfolio" then he would be the first CEO ever to turn an electronics company into a venture capital fund. It also would probably be illegal as a fraud on the investors who had no idea that Blackberry was becoming a venture capital fund.

    What do you think my strategy is exactly? We have different opinions about how the market would accept a properly positioned BB10. (Respectfully, you probably know much less about marketing than I do even if you know more about technology.)

    Chen's slow death is much worse than continuing to put out compelling products and risking a quicker BK. The difference is that if you take a chance you might become very profitable. The odds of Chen's little software companies becoming very profitable are much smaller than BB10 catching on after making the right moves.
    When BB10 had its disastrous launch, and big apps didn't come, they put the company up for sale. The board lost faith in its hardware business. Every arrow pointed down.

    Being a software company (internal development bolstered by targeted acquisitions), is not a venture capitalist company.

    BB10 devices were already in the pike, and Chen still needed to drag it along until the software was ready to start generating revenues. He was not brought in to kill BB10 - it was already dead.

    BlackBerry could spend every last penny they have right now to push BB10, but they wouldn't get anywhere. The market has spoken, the lights are out.

    Let's not compare credentials. Neither of us knows what the other does, or what educations we have. I'm not inclined to say.

    Priv STV100-1 AAF518 / Q5SQR100-1/10.3.3.746
    Last edited by conite; 07-23-16 at 08:27 PM.
    07-23-16 08:06 PM
  18. TgeekB's Avatar
    There is only one group that it is not toxic with. It's loyal base that Chen is destroying by not giving them an upgrade device.
    You're thinking with your heart instead of your brain.
    JeepBB and Coachbulldog like this.
    07-23-16 08:33 PM
  19. TgeekB's Avatar
    You keep repeating this like you know it as fact. The facts do not support this at all. I do not agree that at the time Chen was brought it that it was expressly to kill BB10 and they knew that they were going to kill BB 10. Look at the timing of his start as CEO and the release multiple BB10 devices. Chen released the Passport and was active in designing and marketing the Classic, Leap and the one named after Jakharta or some city in Indonesia.

    Chen was appointed executive chairman of the board and interim CEO of BlackBerry Ltd in November 2013.

    The BlackBerry Classic was unveiled in December 17, 2014 and it runs BlackBerry 10 operating system.

    If Chen was expected to "build a software security portfolio" then he would be the first CEO ever to turn an electronics company into a venture capital fund. It also would probably be illegal as a fraud on the investors who had no idea that Blackberry was becoming a venture capital fund.

    What do you think my strategy is exactly? We have different opinions about how the market would accept a properly positioned BB10. (Respectfully, you probably know much less about marketing than I do even if you know more about technology.)

    Chen's slow death is much worse than continuing to put out compelling products and risking a quicker BK. The difference is that if you take a chance you might become very profitable. The odds of Chen's little software companies becoming very profitable are much smaller than BB10 catching on after making the right moves.
    This last paragraph, especially the last sentence, are completely false. The market has spoken to anyone willing to open their eyes. The only way to survive is through software development, plain and simple.
    07-23-16 08:36 PM
  20. markmall's Avatar
    BB10 devices were already in the pike, and Chen still needed to drag it along until the software was ready to start generating revenues. He was not brought in to kill BB10 - it was already dead.

    Priv STV100-1 AAF518 / Q5SQR100-1/10.3.3.746
    I remember Chen talking about speaking with BB fans about what they wanted for the Classic. That was his baby. So was the deal with Foxcon to build the Leap which also was his baby. The Leap was released in April 2015. Do you really think they were developing that before Chen made the deal with Foxcon? They were developing the Leap -- designed by Foxcon -- before Chen came on board 16 months earlier and before there was a deal with Foxcon?

    You state false things as fact which is very frustrating. I do not like having a debate like that.
    07-23-16 08:44 PM
  21. Invictus0's Avatar
    The "support" was a joke. You couldn't even buy devices at the launches. The Passport sticks out in my mind because there was media buzz about it. Then you couldn't test one out or even buy one sight unseen for MONTHS. Months! Either very poor logistics or they were so spooked about making too many that they would not put in a big enough order. Not a single ad, billboard, movie appearance, nada. It's like they were trying to hide the existence of the phone.

    I count one other small OS competitor. Windows phone. It's still around. It's not doing well, but it's not as good as BB10. MSFT might kill Windows phone and be correct in doing so. They see possible future success so they stay in the game. But BB10 is just better technology.
    Stock was definitely an issue around launch, mostly because of demand,

    BlackBerry Passport preorders reach 200K, company sees smaller than expected earnings loss | VentureBeat | Mobile | by Devindra Hardawar

    The Passport had ads in Canadian newspapers, at NBA games, and of course, through their Formula One partnership (the latter two being some of the biggest events in North America and Europe). This also isn't taking into consideration the launch events they had for the device. Granted it wasn't as big as BB10's launch but I doubt they were dealing with the same budget either.

    BlackBerry Passport marketing ramps up in Canada with full page newspaper ad | CrackBerry.com

    MERCEDES AMG PETRONAS Formula One Team ends 2014 season on top! | CrackBerry.com

    Ad for BlackBerry Passport stars GM of NBA's Toronto Raptors, Masai Ujiri

    etc

    Microsoft isn't small but Windows Phone requires a much smaller investment from Microsoft and developers because of the "UWP" strategy. Code can be shared across Windows 10 platforms which makes maintenance easier (this didn't just start with 10 btw, we saw some of it with Windows 8.1 as well). As a result, investing in one platform is basically an investment in them all to some extent. BB10 doesn't really have that
    07-23-16 08:48 PM
  22. markmall's Avatar
    This last paragraph, especially the last sentence, are completely false. The market has spoken to anyone willing to open their eyes. The only way to survive is through software development, plain and simple.
    You can make Citizen Kane but if no one who likes good movies knows that the reels are sitting in your basement, you will not sell any tickets. No one that likes good tech knew that BB10 or the best devices existed.

    I know because of the responses I get from my Passport and the responses other people report here. People don't know the company still exists or its products from the last three years exist.

    These are facts. You can disagree with what I'm saying, but you will just be denying facts that are as plain as the words on your Android device.
    07-23-16 08:49 PM
  23. conite's Avatar
    I remember Chen talking about speaking with BB fans about what they wanted for the Classic. That was his baby. So was the deal with Foxcon to build the Leap which also was his baby. The Leap was released in April 2015. Do you really think they were developing that before Chen made the deal with Foxcon? They were developing the Leap -- designed by Foxcon -- before Chen came on board 16 months earlier and before there was a deal with Foxcon?

    You state false things as fact which is very frustrating. I do not like having a debate like that.
    I said BB10 devices where already in the pike - namely the Z30 and the Passport.

    The lower cost, farmed out Classic and Leap were indeed released after, in the hopes they would gain some level of traction in the enterprise sector. I don't believe for a moment that anyone at BlackBerry thought they were going to miraculously turn it all around. They were made with all the left over SoCs.

    Priv STV100-1 AAF518 / Q5SQR100-1/10.3.3.746
    JeepBB likes this.
    07-23-16 08:49 PM
  24. markmall's Avatar
    You're thinking with your heart instead of your brain.
    Good. Tell that to Apple's marketing team. Tell them that their fans' loyalty is one of the heart. They will escort you from the building and say, "It is for every decent brand. This is why we listen to them and give them what they want."
    07-23-16 08:53 PM
  25. Invictus0's Avatar
    I remember Chen talking about speaking with BB fans about what they wanted for the Classic. That was his baby. So was the deal with Foxcon to build the Leap which also was his baby. The Leap was released in April 2015. Do you really think they were developing that before Chen made the deal with Foxcon? They were developing the Leap -- designed by Foxcon -- before Chen came on board 16 months earlier and before there was a deal with Foxcon?

    You state false things as fact which is very frustrating. I do not like having a debate like that.
    The Foxconn deal was for the Z3 and Classic.

    BlackBerry CEO confirms Foxconn-made Q20 and Z3 phones - CNET

    BB10 was basically dead for the consumer market, at best it could have lived on with a enterprise and government focus which was a direction that Heins was already taking the company in. The CNET article briefly touches on this, there's more info here,

    BlackBerry to retreat from consumer market, lay off 4,500 employees | The Verge
    07-23-16 08:55 PM
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