09-12-16 05:24 AM
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  1. markmall's Avatar
    What would be the point of running ads all over the place if there are few phones actually available at retailers?

    Think about it. If Chen had committed to building 10M phones, he would have had to commit to nearly $2B in orders to suppliers. BlackBerry doesn't even have $2B anymore.

    And that's just for 10M phones.

    It's a scale problem. You can't just throw ads all over the world if you don't (and can't) have the supply chain to back it up.
    Did I say "throw ads all over the world"? How about having working demos inside retailers? There is a lot of room between nothing and a Samsung scale marketing campaign.
    08-10-16 08:17 PM
  2. app_Developer's Avatar
    Did I say "throw ads all over the world"? How about having working demos inside retailers? There is a lot of room between nothing and a Samsung scale marketing campaign.
    Which retailers would you choose? There are thousands of retailers out there. Imagine how much it would cost to visit thousands of different stores to make sure displays meet standards.

    The retailers themselves don't care about BlackBerry obviously. So BB would have to do that work themselves, or pay for it. That's fine if you're selling millions of phones a week, but if you're only making a million phones a quarter? The cost of these things become absurd when you amortize it over such small sales volume.

    That's the problem BB ran into. They don't have the scale of Samsung or Apple. They are not in the same league. They're barely playing the same sport. At their scale, some things are just not feasible.
    08-10-16 08:23 PM
  3. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Did I say "throw ads all over the world"? How about having working demos inside retailers? There is a lot of room between nothing and a Samsung scale marketing campaign.
    You refuse to accept that Blackberry was bankrupt and circling the drain before Chen got there. Regardless of anything else, the company was broke due to management before Chen ever got there. Basically, TH swung for the fences with BB10 and missed. Chen was not brought in for another swing. The game was over.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    JeepBB likes this.
    08-10-16 09:18 PM
  4. markmall's Avatar
    You refuse to accept that Blackberry was bankrupt and circling the drain before Chen got there. Regardless of anything else, the company was broke due to management before Chen ever got there. Basically, TH swung for the fences with BB10 and missed. Chen was not brought in for another swing. The game was over.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    Arguments like "you refuse to accept reality" are worthless. I would be insulted, but we don't know each other. It is frustrating to be on the receiving end nonetheless because at its core it is an ad hominem attack on the emotional stability of the responder.

    I don't think you know more about Blackberry's finances than I do, so I don't need you telling me about what "reality" is or isn't. (I think you probably know much less than I do and have much less knowledge of business than I do.)

    Whether or not they were on the cusp of bankruptcy before they got Watsa's financing is not the issue. Once they got the financing, they were not close to bankruptcy and even had enough cash to go on a buying spree. They also raised cash by selling many hard assets.

    TH did not "swing for the fences." He made mistakes the most notorious of which was overestimating demand for the Z10 and releasing BB10 before it was polished enough.
    08-10-16 09:28 PM
  5. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Arguments like "you refuse to accept reality" are worthless. I would be insulted, but we don't know each other. It is frustrating to be on the receiving end nonetheless because at its core it is an ad hominem attack on the emotional stability of the responder.

    I don't think you know more about Blackberry's finances than I do, so I don't need you telling me about what "reality" is or isn't. (I think you probably know much less than I do and have much less knowledge of business than I do.)

    Whether or not they were on the cusp of bankruptcy before they got Watsa's financing is not the issue. Once they got the financing, they were not close to bankruptcy and even had enough cash to go on a buying spree. They also raised cash by selling many hard assets.

    TH did not "swing for the fences." He made mistakes the most notorious of which was overestimating demand for the Z10 and releasing BB10 before it was polished enough.
    They only got the cash to spend the way Fairfax tells them. He bought effective control. As far as your business experience, I'm not sure what you're saying because you fail to acknowledge their financial situation and legal obligations to stakeholders that are in their multiple required filings as publicly traded company. Regardless of what strategy you want to embrace, the only strategy Chen was hired to implement has been implemented. Obviously, Prem didn't hire you. Since you have great business experience, and you've got this great business plan, launch a takeover with backers that share your vision. Shareholders love hostile takeovers and private equity loves ROI. Just raise money like Prem did. Show Prem and Chen how it should be done. I mean really, what do they really know? They don't have your business experience do they...??

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    08-10-16 09:50 PM
  6. markmall's Avatar
    They only got the cash to spend the way Fairfax tells them. He bought effective control. As far as your business experience, I'm not sure what you're saying because you fail to acknowledge their financial situation and legal obligations to stakeholders that are in their multiple required filings as publicly traded company. Regardless of what strategy you want to embrace, the only strategy Chen was hired to implement has been implemented. Obviously, Prem didn't hire you. Since you have great business experience, and you've got this great business plan, launch a takeover with backers that share your vision. Shareholders love hostile takeovers and private equity loves ROI. Just raise money like Prem did. Show Prem and Chen how it should be done. I mean really, what do they really know? They don't have your business experience do they...??

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    What do you think their "legal obligations to stakeholders" means? Do you mean to debt-holders or equity-holders?

    They didn't drop BB10 like a hot potato at least 1-2 years after Chen's BB10 devices failed.

    Just because I'm not ready to take over BlackBerry doesn't mean I can't comment on what I see. Have you ever criticized the U.S. President? Well, are you a president? If you're so smart why don't you run for president? I'm waiting...

    Posted via CB10
    08-10-16 10:58 PM
  7. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    What do you think their "legal obligations to stakeholders" means? Do you mean to debt-holders or equity-holders?

    They didn't drop BB10 like a hot potato at least 1-2 years after Chen's BB10 devices failed.

    Just because I'm not ready to take over BlackBerry doesn't mean I can't comment on what I see. Have you ever criticized the U.S. President? Well, are you a president? If you're so smart why don't you run for president? I'm waiting...

    Posted via CB10
    Thought you had business experience..... Stakeholders includes a lot more than equity and debt holders. All your comments sound like an ivory tower professor. Every time someone attacks theoretical basic concepts, your responses are just like many responses given in a Marketing 101 class. BlackBerry isn't operating in a vacuum. The competition isn't a textbook. Arguing marketing for a company that doesn't have the money to spend is ridiculous. Arguing presidents is ridiculous. I've grown up running businesses and know that only thing for certain is fact. You can't spend what you don't have. You can't repeat a failed strategy and expect a different outcome just because you wish it to be so. That is the mistake of many CEOs and Presidents. We have the benefit of hindsight. As they say it's 20/20. Put a business plan out there and back it up with realistic marketing and finance executable strategies and explain it to us. How would you steal marketshare from Android/IOS with your version of Fairfax backing you?

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    08-11-16 09:12 AM
  8. markmall's Avatar
    Thought you had business experience..... Stakeholders includes a lot more than equity and debt holders. All your comments sound like an ivory tower professor. Every time someone attacks theoretical basic concepts, your responses are just like many responses given in a Marketing 101 class. BlackBerry isn't operating in a vacuum. The competition isn't a textbook. Arguing marketing for a company that doesn't have the money to spend is ridiculous. Arguing presidents is ridiculous. I've grown up running businesses and know that only thing for certain is fact. You can't spend what you don't have. You can't repeat a failed strategy and expect a different outcome just because you wish it to be so. That is the mistake of many CEOs and Presidents. We have the benefit of hindsight. As they say it's 20/20. Put a business plan out there and back it up with realistic marketing and finance executable strategies and explain it to us. How would you steal marketshare from Android/IOS with your version of Fairfax backing you?

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    Their real stakeholders are their shareholders. Not their convertible debt holders. Chen and the board have fiduciary duties to the shareholders but not the debt holders.

    Doing the same thing over and over? Don't you think that's what they are doing? Releasing devices without the public knowing that they exist? Or that the company even still exists? This is true with even with the Android devices. This guarantees failure.

    Also, releasing phones at impossible price points. Chen has done this over and over. Now he finally prices one lower. But DTEK will fail. No one knows it exists except for a few core fans that like the old OS for the most part.

    Don't have the cash? Wrong. They just have prioritized other things. Chen already has changed course and expanded the marketing beyond Internet banner ads. As usual, he's a day late and a dollar short.

    Posted via CB10
    08-11-16 03:03 PM
  9. app_Developer's Avatar
    Don't have the cash? Wrong. They just have prioritized other things.
    I guess the question is how much would you spend on this? $50M? $500M?

    It's hard to talk about whether it's affordable or smart without talking about numbers.
    08-11-16 03:39 PM
  10. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    I guess the question is how much would you spend on this? $50M? $500M?

    It's hard to talk about whether it's affordable or smart without talking about numbers.
    BlackBerry is the company that decides how to spend their own (and Watsa's) money. Not the CrackBerry nation, unfortunately. We only get to watch.
    08-11-16 03:47 PM
  11. app_Developer's Avatar
    BlackBerry is the company that decides how to spend their own (and Watsa's) money. Not the CrackBerry nation, unfortunately. We only get to watch.
    And we get to speculate about what they should have done or could do. Nothing wrong with that, IMO. It's like saying your favorite race team should have chosen a different tire or your favorite QB should have thrown the check down.

    You don't have to be an NFL QB to be able to discuss their play.

    I think when you start to talk about what a more aggressive marketing/ad campaign would actually cost, then to me it becomes clear that Chen actually made the right choice there.
    Troy Tiscareno likes this.
    08-11-16 03:59 PM
  12. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    And we get to speculate about what they should have done or could do. Nothing wrong with that, IMO. It's like saying your favorite race team should have chosen a different tire or your favorite QB should have thrown the check down.

    You don't have to be an NFL QB to be able to discuss their play.
    Yeah, but maybe this discussion should be in its own post, instead of continuing to hijack the OP's original topic.
    08-11-16 04:01 PM
  13. markmall's Avatar
    I guess the question is how much would you spend on this? $50M? $500M?

    It's hard to talk about whether it's affordable or smart without talking about numbers.
    I don't know the exact number but marketing firms could propose strategies at different price points. They started spending more than just targeted banner ads recently. I know this because of the pop-up store in New York City and the promotional spots for the Priv before Sunday news programs.

    Posted via CB10
    08-11-16 04:05 PM
  14. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Their real stakeholders are their shareholders. Not their convertible debt holders. Chen and the board have fiduciary duties to the shareholders but not the debt holders.

    Doing the same thing over and over? Don't you think that's what they are doing? Releasing devices without the public knowing that they exist? Or that the company even still exists? This is true with even with the Android devices. This guarantees failure.

    Also, releasing phones at impossible price points. Chen has done this over and over. Now he finally prices one lower. But DTEK will fail. No one knows it exists except for a few core fans that like the old OS for the most part.

    Don't have the cash? Wrong. They just have prioritized other things. Chen already has changed course and expanded the marketing beyond Internet banner ads. As usual, he's a day late and a dollar short.

    Posted via CB10
    Actually shareholders come behind convertible debtholders. Again, Business 101.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    08-12-16 10:31 PM
  15. markmall's Avatar
    Actually shareholders come behind convertible debtholders. Again, Business 101.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    I think you either need to read more carefully or you don't understand.

    If BlackBerry went bankrupt, the debt-holders get paid before the shareholders. I never said otherwise.

    In terms of Chen's duties in his decision-making, he has broad and important fiduciary duties to the shareholders but not the debt-holders. He has no fiduciary duties whatsoever to the debt-holders.

    Posted via CB10
    08-13-16 12:57 AM
  16. Korlin Shylla's Avatar
    Say what you want, I'm sticking with my Z10.

    Posted via CB10
    08-13-16 09:56 PM
  17. mvsalvino's Avatar
    I think the only way a new BB10 device will come is if BlackBerry's customers place enough orders to deplete the stock of classics, passports, and leaps - and still want more. Then Chen would be forced to make a new device since parts for the old devices are no longer available.

    This scenario is so unlikely that even I as a BB10 die hard wouldn't get my hopes up.

     C L A S S I C
    Coachbulldog likes this.
    08-16-16 12:02 AM
  18. wilber1's Avatar
    Why would they make another BB10 device when they say it failed and go to Android only reason they say they might would be so some people might buy up their old devices however be careful with support on them .
    08-16-16 06:05 AM
  19. anon(3983727)'s Avatar
    Why would they make another BB10 device when they say it failed and go to Android only reason they say they might would be so some people might buy up their old devices however be careful with support on them .
    Because still to this day they have not had a launch more successful since the Z10 followed by the Passport (Even with no US official launch) and those were considered "failures" due to higher expectations. Android will never have the potential profit as BB10 and is being used just to keep the name relevant in hardware. Once Blackberry is in a position to attempt a new stab at the mobile hardware market BB10 makes a lot of sense with the proper polish and exposure.
    08-16-16 08:15 AM
  20. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    Because still to this day they have not had a launch more successful since the Z10 followed by the Passport (Even with no US official launch) and those were considered "failures" due to higher expectations.
    Android will never have the potential profit as BB10 and is being used just to keep the name relevant in hardware. Once Blackberry is in a position to attempt a new stab at the mobile hardware market BB10 makes a lot of sense with the proper polish and exposure.
    No BB10 device has ever made a profit.
    Android may not either but that is beside the point.
    BlackBerry is a much smaller company now and their priority is software.
    Taking another stab at BB10 makes no sense at all.
    08-16-16 08:29 AM
  21. dboy54's Avatar
    I love your preference #2. I don't think it would ever happen but that would make the ultimate phone.
    08-16-16 09:53 AM
  22. kvndoom's Avatar
    The companys never said that we would not build another BB10 device.
    That's not saying "maybe." That's saying "you never heard us say that."
    DrBoomBotz likes this.
    08-16-16 10:19 AM
  23. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    People learn at their own rate and some don't ever learn.
    I find it fascinating.

    Or it could be that I am the one who is wrong and BlackBerry will release the Z50 in 2019 running BB11.
    I doubt that though.
    Coachbulldog likes this.
    08-16-16 10:36 AM
  24. anon(3983727)'s Avatar
    No BB10 device has ever made a profit.
    Android may not either but that is beside the point.
    BlackBerry is a much smaller company now and their priority is software.
    Taking another stab at BB10 makes no sense at all.
    BB10 being software, it makes perfect sense to me.
    08-16-16 11:45 AM
  25. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    BB10 being software, it makes perfect sense to me.
    Losing more money does not make any sense.
    08-16-16 01:10 PM
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