11-05-15 02:59 PM
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  1. wincyUt's Avatar
    You're joking, right. It's a completely different and insecure platform.
    First, I'm talking about transition between two different platforms. BBOS and BB10 platforms were different, were they not? Likewise BB10 and Android.
    Second, speaking about insecure platform, what information are you privy to that all the enterprises and consumers using are not aware of? Moreover, hasn't John Chen said for the record that if they can't figure out how to secure the Android OS, they won't make Android based devices?. Life evolves and will BlackBerry too.
    09-23-15 11:42 AM
  2. lnichols's Avatar
    You're joking, right. It's a completely different and insecure platform.
    Yes our security group has said don't even waste their time with trying to get any Android devices certified for use on the networks. They simply don't trust it. It will take a long time to get a device like this through to these customers, and time is not a luxury BlackBerry has. I think this transition by BlackBerry may just be the thing that p1sses off many of their regulated customers on BES. They were going in saying they were committed to Bb10 to these organization, got them to go BB10, and now they will be going in telling them to try their Android devices. The organization I contract to just killed off BES5, have been migrating people to BB10/BES10, and have spent a lot of money migrating people. How are they going to feel about having stuck with BlackBerry and believing their "commitment"?

    Posted via Z30
    lift and JGoodard like this.
    09-23-15 11:43 AM
  3. wincyUt's Avatar
    And they have a much smaller potential base to convert than they did before.

    Posted via Z30
    Can you please elaborate before I respond. I'm not quite sure what you mean. Thanks.
    09-23-15 11:44 AM
  4. lnichols's Avatar
    First, I'm talking about transition between two different platforms. BBOS and BB10 platforms were different, were they not? Likewise BB10 and Android.
    Second, speaking about insecure platform, what information are you privy to that all the enterprises and consumers using are not aware of? Moreover, hasn't John Chen said for the record that if they can't figure out how to secure the Android OS, they won't make Android based devices?. Life evolves and will BlackBerry too.
    BlackBerry said they were committed to BB10 too. Seriously you think Chen or BlackBerry are entities you can take at their word? Also what is the definition of secure that Chen is applying here? Secure as BB10 connected to BES, or secure enough to meet certificate X, Y and Z, or secure as Google has made it secure?

    Posted via Z30
    lift likes this.
    09-23-15 11:47 AM
  5. wincyUt's Avatar
    Yes our security group has said don't even waste their time with trying to get any Android devices certified for use on the networks. They simply don't trust it. It will take a long time to get a device like this through to these customers, and time is not a luxury BlackBerry has. I think this transition by BlackBerry may just be the thing that p1sses off many of their regulated customers on BES. They were going in saying they were committed to Bb10 to these organization, got them to go BB10, and now they will be going in telling them to try their Android devices. The organization I contract to just killed off BES5, have been migrating people to BB10/BES10, and have spent a lot of money migrating people. How are they going to feel about having stuck with BlackBerry and believing their "commitment"?

    Posted via Z30
    We are all speculating about BlackBerry's future intentions are; maybe we should all be patient and wait for the dust to settle.
    09-23-15 11:47 AM
  6. wincyUt's Avatar
    BlackBerry said they were committed to BB10 too. Seriously you think Chen or BlackBerry are entities you can take at their word? Also what is the definition of secure that Chen is applying here? Secure as BB10 connected to BES, or secure enough to meet certificate X, Y and Z, or secure as Google has made it secure?

    Posted via Z30
    Yes I will give the benefit of doubt until he proves otherwise.
    09-23-15 11:49 AM
  7. lnichols's Avatar
    Can you please elaborate before I respond. I'm not quite sure what you mean. Thanks.
    They had a pool of around 70 to 80 Million existing users when Bb10 launched. They are now down sub 40 Million. Of that now sub 40 Million, all have seen this clown organization transition to BB10, and now are watching them transition to Android. I doubt they have the resources to spend to try and get many from outside the existing customers to give them a look.

    TH said transitions are where commoners go to die. I thinks the odds of death are enhanced significantly when you do two in such a short time.

    Posted via Z30
    09-23-15 11:51 AM
  8. CarbonKevin's Avatar
    200 people from the hardware design division were laid off this week. What else would they have been working on? 200 is a lot of people!
    Now let's have a dose of really...

    200 people from the hardware AND design TEAMS were laid off.

    What else would they have been working on?

    Have you heard of concurrent design? Do you honestly believe companies only design one thing at a time? Do you know what R&D is? Are you aware that a large amount of hardware and design work in many companies never actually sees the light of day?

    Clearly not. What else, indeed.

    You clearly also have no clue just how many people it takes to design consumer products, particularly mobile devices.

    It's entirely possible that NONE of the 200 people laid off were involved in the Venice.

    So what else were they working on? I don't know, and neither do you, so maybe stop pretending you do.



    Posted via CB10
    09-23-15 01:49 PM
  9. Branta's Avatar
    I think this transition by BlackBerry may just be the thing that p1sses off many of their regulated customers on BES. They were going in saying they were committed to Bb10 to these organization, got them to go BB10, and now they will be going in telling them to try their Android devices. The organization I contract to just killed off BES5, have been migrating people to BB10/BES10, and have spent a lot of money migrating people. How are they going to feel about having stuck with BlackBerry and believing their "commitment"?
    What also worries me is the potential impact of the "Blackberry" acquisition for those who adopted Good (or were about to make the switch) because they had lost faith in Blackberry's long term stability and support for BES. That taint might now transfer to Good.

    I understand several US government agencies have already dropped all Blackberry products because of ongoing concerns about long term survival of Blackberry, and persistent user dissatisfaction with BB products and capability. A range of Android and Apple handsets has replaced the withdrawn devices. However in almost every case the user experience with Android devices in a regulated environment has been less than satisfactory and it is likely that Apple will achieve near monopoly there after the next round of replacements. Blackberry is not going to get back into these markets however hard they try, that horse has already bolted and the stable door has been firmly closed.
    JGoodard likes this.
    09-23-15 01:51 PM
  10. GreenCopperz's Avatar
    Screen-door installation is already in progress.
    No, they laid off the screen door installers... ;-) it will be implemented virtually via a software update in 10.4.1 future os's.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.2558
    ubizmo likes this.
    09-23-15 01:55 PM
  11. crucial bbq's Avatar
    Getting access to Google Play Store is the whole point of the exercise. Chen made it clear that he understands that the app gap is killing BlackBerry, and the Amazon solution was no solution. It would make no sense to launch an Android without Play. For Play, they have to be in OHA. Moreover, we've seen the Play icon on leaked images and video. I think the overwhelming weight of evidence favors OHA membership. Exactly how this will affect the runtime on existing BB10 devices is still unclear. I think the best guess is: It'll stay as it is; won't be upgraded; and new versions of BB10 won't have it. But that's still a guess.
    Right; GPS for apps requiring Google Services such as Docs and Hangouts that many business men and women require.

    In the recent fireside chat, Chen said that he won't drop handsets because handsets are the first line of encryption.

    In the Chamber of Commerce interview Chen said that BlackBerry is in a cultural shift; moving away from being a "handset" company to being a security/privacy company. When BlackBerry released BES10 alongside BB10 everyone thought it was only meant for BB10. Chen's solution was to change this perception with BES12 and this is where Chen's main turn-around strategy lies. When people think of BES they still tend to think BlackBerry, so, the Venice, and the partnerships with Google and Samsung (Knox) are meant to change this perception.

    This is supposed to be a business phone, not a consumer's phone, but we'll if this is true not when it is officially launched (and how it is marketed).

    When Google partnered with BlackBerry it was to bring advanced security to enterprise through BES12 and Android. There are a lot of armchair analysts' here who assume that the Android powered Venice is the result of poor BB10 sales. However, there are a few of us who believe that the Venice is meant for enterprise and not the average Joe consumer. This opinion is also backed by XDA Developers who feel that the Venice is simply BlackBerry's way of showcasing BlackBerry security on an Android handset.

    I think it is safe to say the Venice was originally going to run BB10 yet only after the July partnership between Google and BlackBerry did they change the OS. My guess is that Google has allowed BlackBerry the use of GPS on the Venice in exchange for BlackBerry using Android, not BB10, to showcase BES12.

    With that, the rules of OHA are not made publicly available. It is really not known if Google Play is a part of the deal or not and the OHA is supposed to make decisions as a group, anyways. It was really only Andy Rubin who was aggressive about enforcing GPS onto OHA members and that dude left the position two years ago. Since he has left Google has been more relaxed with Android and seems to have stepped back a little.

    What is known from past court cases is that the license from Google varies by vendor; it is possible BlackBerry got a license that allows access to GPS without having to become an OHA member. To add; the terms and duration of an individual license also varies.

    And,

    "Android Compatibility" is not only totally ambiguous it is also something that can change to fit the needs of Google. Meaning, Google defines Android Compatibility not only on a vendor-by-vendor basis but also on a handset-by-handset basis as a means to dissuade competition. Further; Google alters Android Compatibility as necessary in order to keep competitive handsets off the market.

    Based on emails made available in court cases (and as such, public documents), it is clear that Google only targets those who infringe on Google's ability to collect data. It is up in the air if Google is going to allow BlackBerry to block Google from collecting data or if they simply do not care. Considering that privacy and security are two different issues, my guess is that Chen does not care if Google knows your exact location at all times or what you are doing with your phone.

    Also through emails entered as evidence it has been clearly shown that Google uses Compatibility to force vendors into doing what Google wants them to do.

    This was all back when Andy Rubin was still the big cheese of Android, so it is unclear if Google is still this aggressive.

    2. Fragmentation. This is about developing and distributing SDKs or helping others develop and/or distribute SDKs. Would this apply to BlackBerry's own ART if ART was kept in-house?

    In the end, it does not matter as Google and BlackBerry signed an agreement that would benefit both and a part of that agreement could be that BlackBerry does not have to become a member of the OHA. I have been searching for news or indication that BlackBerry is now a part of the OHA and have yet to find anything. People are just assuming it based on the fact that the Venice has thus far been seen with the GPS app icon.

    Even if BlackBerry has become a member of the OHA that would still make them a "voting" party and as I wrote above, besides, their own individual license is going to be tailored explicitly to them.

    Annnnnnndddd.......

    In order to get the license each device must be tested by a third party to the tune of upwards of $75K U.S. per 100K phones.



    You sorta lost me - as Ubizmo points out - access to google play services is the whole point (and all the leaks upto and including the video show it) - yes you could fork it, yes you could build something with AOSP or yes you could do something with ART - but why bother - what's the point? Its leaves BBRY out in the cold.

    You could be right and they have done a deal to save the runtime but I wouldn't bet any serious money on it...
    I have a tendency to ramble on, I blame caffeine...

    Why bother? Because it still allows you a unique device and the gives you ability to offer your own best solutions. But hey, never mind, all anyone cares about is Google's own suite of apps.

    By the way, I have Play, Google Services, and a few Google branded apps installed on my "POS Z10 with it's POS BB10". Works well. The whole process took about 5 minutes.

    But I also did it just to see how well GS work on the lame Z10.

    Anyways, ramble off.

    BlackBerry is going to be out in the cold with handsets no matter what they do at this point. Whether they go full on Android, stick with BB10, or whatever what they need to do in the mobile market is to simply offer consistency and to wait it out. BB10 has only been commercially available for 2 1/2 years now. In another 2 1/2 years it will have a different market share, for better or worse. One thing is for sure: switching to Android is only going to confuse the market and then what is next? Tizen?



    Yes, it'll annoy a lot of people, just as the fact that the Venice is an Android phone has already annoyed a lot of people. That's obviously not an obstacle.

    We don't know what's going to happen, but we've heard the argument that losing the runtime is the cost of getting Google Play. I don't think that argument is a lock, but it's plausible. That's why this is such a big gamble. BlackBerry is sacrificing a large chunk of what's left of its "base" to try to gain a new base. If it fails, there's nothing left.
    The rules of the OHA are not made publicly available but it is clear based on documents entered as evidence in past court cases that the "rules" and licenses are tailored individually to the situation. So, losing ART may or may not be at the cost of getting the Play Store app.

    Yes, outside of those who are going to stick if anything to simply support BlackBerry, for every new "Android" customer BB gains they stand to lose an existing user. But we do not yet know what the final OS is going to look like or how much BlackBerry functionality is going to be layered onto it. Love it or hate it, one thing is for sure: BB10 looks and feels like an OS built by BlackBerry. The more stock Android "BlackBerry Android" looks and functions the more likely diehards will leave. Hopefully, they do a good job making it feel like a BlackBerry OS....


    They were never going to truly support BB10 devices and android devices anyways... So what if they **** off existing customers. They've already done that numerous times. This would be nothing new for them.
    Chen is more concerned with stuff like BES12 and end-point security in particular as BlackBerry moves more into IoT. One thing that is rarely reported here on CrackBerry is that Chen is heavily focused on "Auto OS" right now. That is the future of BlackBerry, not handsets. But Chen has stated numerous times over the last few months that he is not getting out of the handset business.

    I read comments here all the time from people who think JC is the messiah. Anyone who wants to understand history and how a group of people could follow the orders of Adolf Hitler only need to study these forums.

    No matter how many people he fires, no matter how many lies he tells they still think he has done something good for this company.

    Someone with some sense needs to call for a vote of no confidence. Now.

    Z30STA100-5 / 10.3.2.2639 / T-Mobile USA
    Why? In one year's time Chen took BlackBerry from spending $1B in cash to earning $70M in cash. $70M is a small profit to a company like BlackBerry but it is way better than losing $1B, no? He has also made some very big, and serious, acquisitions. He's not going anywhere unless he wants to.

    That's probably the best solution.

    Personally, I could give a rat's *** about ART anyway. I don't use any Android apps. In fact, I use very few apps at all. I use the phone, text, email, calendar, and browser. If everything else were deleted, I probably wouldn't notice.

    Richard
    What many who live by Instagram, SnapChat, and Candy Crush do not realize is that there are more people out there like you than they realize.
    djdragon likes this.
    09-23-15 02:13 PM
  12. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Have you heard of concurrent design? Do you honestly believe companies only design one thing at a time? Do you know what R&D is? Are you aware that a large amount of hardware and design work in many companies never actually sees the light of day?
    Of course I know and understand all of those things. Had they laid off 20, or even 50 people, you would have a point, but 200 is a pretty big number. And the timing is also pretty relevant.

    IMO, this is a strong sign that most or all future smartphones will have not just their manufacturing (which was always the case) but also their design and engineering done by third-party OEM partners, as Foxconn has done with the Z3 and Leap. Obviously, I have no inside knowledge, but you don't have to be a genius, or a spy, to look at all of the information coming out of BB and put together some likely scenarios.
    09-23-15 02:27 PM
  13. Jerry A's Avatar
    I read comments here all the time from people who think JC is the messiah. Anyone who wants to understand history and how a group of people could follow the orders of Adolf Hitler only need to study these forums.

    No matter how many people he fires, no matter how many lies he tells they still think he has done something good for this company.

    Someone with some sense needs to call for a vote of no confidence. Now.

    Z30STA100-5 / 10.3.2.2639 / T-Mobile USA
    The good of the company and the good of the BlackBerry handsets are two way different things.

    He's transforming a company that literally no one thought was worth buying.

    That may leave the handset fans in the cold. But, if he rescues this company them he's done the job he was brought on board to complete.
    TGR1 likes this.
    09-23-15 03:10 PM
  14. JamieWilson01's Avatar
    More BlackBerry cuts as Google, Shopify expand Wateroo presence-img_20150923_200801.png

    If these figures are anywhere near correct then it looks like bb10 is dead.

    Via CB10 from Scotland using Z10STL100-2/10.3.2.2639
    09-23-15 03:11 PM
  15. CarbonKevin's Avatar
    That may leave the handset fans in the cold. But, if he rescues this company them he's done the job he was brought on board to complete.
    Chen has repeatedly said end to end security is vital to BlackBerry, which simply means they will continue to produce hardware. Plain and simple.

    Posted via CB10
    09-23-15 03:13 PM
  16. Jerry A's Avatar
    Chen has repeatedly said end to end security is vital to BlackBerry, which simply means they will continue to produce hardware. Plain and simple.

    Posted via CB10
    That's your interpretation.

    He's said nothing concrete to support your interpretation.

    Here's another interpretation. BlackBerry nails the iOS and Android containers. Your data then has "end-to-end" security and control within the context of BlackBerry's offerings. Physical phone be damned - only the data managed within the BlackBerry space (BES & phone containers) counts.
    09-23-15 03:21 PM
  17. CarbonKevin's Avatar
    That's your interpretation.

    He's said nothing concrete to support your interpretation.

    Here's another interpretation. BlackBerry nails the iOS and Android containers. Your data then has "end-to-end" security and control within the context of BlackBerry's offerings. Physical phone be damned - only the data managed within the BlackBerry space (BES & phone containers) counts.

    "Hardware continues to be a valuable part of BlackBerrys end-to-end platform. That said, there is an incredible opportunity for BlackBerry to capture a greater share of enterprise revenues and service those customers who depend on the enterprise-grade mobility solutions that we provide. We have shifted some resources internally to focus on security and software. And, we will continue to be the choice for individuals who want to get the most out of their smartphones to keep their information protected and maximize their productivity, communication and collaboration."-John Chen, CEO, BlackBerry, August 11, 2015
    Now with that said, your theory of secure containerization within a fundamentally insecure OS is garbage. That's not how it works. If you don't start with a secure kernel, anything you slap over it is just a bandaid. Since BlackBerry aren't about to take control of iOS and Android security, they can never assure the same secure experience that they provide with BB10.


    Posted via CB10
    09-23-15 03:38 PM
  18. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Now with that said, your theory of secure containerization within a fundamentally insecure OS is garbage. That's not how it works. If you don't start with a secure kernel, anything you slap over it is just a bandaid. Since BlackBerry aren't about to take control of iOS and Android security, they can never assure the same secure experience that they provide with BB10.


    Posted via CB10
    You are correct... Chen will never reach the level of security on Android that he was able to obtain on BB10.

    But lets be honest... Chen no more cares about mobile security than most consumers do. He is a CEO of a company and his JOB is to make money for the shareholders. BB10 was not doing that, in fact BB10 was costing the company money.

    If they can secure the boot-rom and use Android for Work tied with BES to contain and manage devices... that might meet the security needs of 90% of the enterprise world. That could be much more profitable than chasing the highly regulated industries and some government agencies.... and that is what is really important to John Chen.

    I don't know BB10's future, and I think it is a shame that their timing was all wrong for it's development. But they say timing is everything....
    CarbonKevin likes this.
    09-23-15 03:58 PM
  19. CarbonKevin's Avatar
    Thanks, Dunt Dunt Dunt...

    I disagree on two of your points. First, security is one of the few levers BlackBerry can pull to which the competition have no reply. You know security researchers will be all whatever BlackBerry are working on when it finally does come out. If BlackBerry's security claims are discredited then Chen's done nothing but screw himself.

    Secondly, securing a bootrom is one thing, but at the end of the day, Android is still an open source OS. BB10 has a huge advantage in that outsiders can't just pop the hood and take a look at what's going on in there.

    I also think any deep-down, fundamental changes to Android will require a fork, and we're all aware of the problems that brings.

    Posted via CB10
    09-23-15 04:10 PM
  20. papped's Avatar
    Thanks, Dunt Dunt Dunt...

    I disagree on two of your points. First, security is one of the few levers BlackBerry can pull to which the competition have no reply. You know security researchers will be all whatever BlackBerry are working on when it finally does come out. If BlackBerry's security claims are discredited then Chen's done nothing but screw himself.

    Secondly, securing a bootrom is one thing, but at the end of the day, Android is still an open source OS. BB10 has a huge advantage in that outsiders can't just pop the hood and take a look at what's going on in there.
    Posted via CB10
    Point 1 is useless if they can't leverage it. At best i would say they could shoot for being the top MDM software provider, for not-their-own platform... That's the best case...

    Point 2 is true, but they also have little to no contribution to security from others as a result (in the past when consumers report flaws they usually took their sweet, ridiculous time doing anything about it, if at all).

    They aren't the government solution anymore. They aren't a consumer solution, even if they had the best android device in the world their customer service and support would drop them down a couple hundred pegs (not to mention BB's constant "awareness" failures). The platform itself isn't even the biggest issue they have.
    09-23-15 04:32 PM
  21. Jerry A's Avatar
    Now with that said, your theory of secure containerization within a fundamentally insecure OS is garbage. That's not how it works. If you don't start with a secure kernel, anything you slap over it is just a bandaid. Since BlackBerry aren't about to take control of iOS and Android security, they can never assure the same secure experience that they provide with BB10.


    Posted via CB10
    Once again, that's your interpretation.

    In your second quote, would you mind pointing out where he explicitly states he's making hardware?
    09-23-15 04:43 PM
  22. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    First, security is one of the few levers BlackBerry can pull to which the competition have no reply.
    Perhaps, but that hasn't helped BB sell a decent volume of smartphones. After more than two and a half years, sales of the "most secure mobile OS" continue to drop. Obviously a handful of customers value security over other issues, but the vast majority are obviously satisfied with other security solutions and are using iOS, Android, or WinPhone instead of BB10. Sales figures prove that pretty soundly.

    Even if BB could guarantee that BB10 was 100%, unequivocally "hack-proof", and get a thousand security researchers to sign off on that allegation, it still wouldn't make a bit of difference as long as BB couldn't make a profit selling BB10 smartphones. Profits are the measure of success or failure in the business world, and by all accounts, BB10 has been a huge failure. (And, remember, I'm the first to admit that BB10 is a fine OS on its own - the problem is that people don't choose mobile OSs in a bubble - they have to work in the real world with third-party apps, services, and media, and they have to be supported by carriers and service centers, etc.)

    I promise you, Chen, the BoD of BB, and BB shareholders would happily throw BB10 under the bus, along with all of the "secure enterprise and government" clients, if they could get 10 times the smartphone sales with some other OS. Security is only important to BB to the extent that it sells things and makes profits. That's how it works in a free-market world.
    09-23-15 04:50 PM
  23. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Thanks, Dunt Dunt Dunt...

    I disagree on two of your points. First, security is one of the few levers BlackBerry can pull to which the competition have no reply. You know security researchers will be all whatever BlackBerry are working on when it finally does come out. If BlackBerry's security claims are discredited then Chen's done nothing but screw himself.

    Secondly, securing a bootrom is one thing, but at the end of the day, Android is still an open source OS. BB10 has a huge advantage in that outsiders can't just pop the hood and take a look at what's going on in there.

    I also think any deep-down, fundamental changes to Android will require a fork, and we're all aware of the problems that brings.

    Posted via CB10


    I agree to the befits of using BB10 and having their own platform - it would have been best for BlackBerry and for Security consensus customers. Your missing the point - BB10 has clearly demonstrated that Security alone is not enough, and things are only getting worse each quarter as sales continue to fall But I also think that BB10's failures have hurt BES12 subscription rates also. You look at Good and Mobile Irons revenues, and then look at BlackBerry's software revenues.... pull out QNX at 100 Million and it's clear BES was falling behind.

    I don't know that anyone has said the Android solution is going to be better as far as the security goes... have seen a lot of concern about it. We'll just have to wait and see what they are able to do. But it is something different that has "potential". BB10's potential was long ago used up.
    09-23-15 04:59 PM
  24. -Puck-'s Avatar
    Standard approach for most brands is to contract out most significant manufacturing aspects anyway. They give their OEMs an idea, a few renders, maybe a basic demo, and let them take on the job - and responsibility - to design and manufacture it. Takes much of the financial burden off of the company.

    As much as it sucks to say, it makes perfect business sense and is what a lot of companies do. Auto makers are notorious for this - very little is actually engineered and created "in house"...they tell a contractor the specs they want and the price it needs to stay in, and let them design and create the part before they slap their own name on it.
    09-23-15 07:45 PM
  25. qwerty4ever's Avatar
    Secondly, securing a bootrom is one thing, but at the end of the day, Android is still an open source OS. BB10 has a huge advantage in that outsiders can't just pop the hood and take a look at what's going on in there.
    Up to this statement you had me agreeing with you. However, it is clear you are ill-informed about open source software and security. The security by obscurity paradigm in closed source software has been shown to be a fool's delusion. Examining the source code in open source software does not give attackers any insight into breeching security if the software is designed with security in mind. In the case of Google Android we have the worst of closed source software because the core of Google Android is not publicly-accessible for examination. Google has perverted any notion of open source with Google Android OS. It is a damn vector for malware and data harvesting.
    10-02-15 12:38 AM
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