02-15-15 10:32 AM
174 ... 4567
tools
  1. fishlove73's Avatar
    2009-2013 I used droids (galaxy s, 2,3) and IPhone 4s. IPhone was a very stable OS., much more stable than Android.I liked it. But when BlackBerry went to 10 and all touch...I had to try it because I had such a good experience in 2007-08 with the 8310. Now I'm just debating if I want to move up to a z30 or passport..having trouble making up my mind on which one.

    Posted via the pure awesomeness of blackberry.
    02-09-15 06:35 PM
  2. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Look, the Android runtime has ruined BB10. That poster was right. And 10.3 is a step in the wrong direction.

    I certainly prefer cascades and bb10 to anything else, however.

    Posted via CB10
    Don't we all prefer cascades? But this idea that there would be infinitely more native cascades apps if the android player did not exist is not something I agree with. BlackBerry doesn't have Microsoft's deep pockets to throw at devs and generally wait it out until market adoption picks up. They needed to implement a strategy that was suited to their current market position and balance sheet. Just like it wouldn't make sense for Microsoft to implement an Android runtime because they have the money to wait it out. I don't love Android apps on BB10, but I am glad I have them when the alternative is NO apps. Because that is the reality we would be dealing with.
    02-09-15 11:49 PM
  3. JeepBB's Avatar
    Don't we all prefer cascades? But this idea that there would be infinitely more native cascades apps if the android player did not exist is not something I agree with. BlackBerry doesn't have Microsoft's deep pockets to throw at devs and generally wait it out until market adoption picks up. They needed to implement a strategy that was suited to their current market position and balance sheet. Just like it wouldn't make sense for Microsoft to implement an Android runtime because they have the money to wait it out. I don't love Android apps on BB10, but I am glad I have them when the alternative is NO apps. Because that is the reality we would be dealing with.
    I mostly agree with that. Some Apps are definitely better than No Apps.

    Unfortunately, for BB, the reality is that they've entered into a Faustian Pact over the android runtime. Far from being the saviour of BB10, it's likely to be the cause of its demise.

    When your USP is that your phone can run some, but not all, Android Apps acceptably well; it's hard to answer the inevitable "so why wouldn't I buy an Android phone and be able to run them all?" question. The answer on these forums frequently involves the BB10 Hub, which is I doubt enough to counter the pull towards Android.

    My guess is that BB will go full Android sooner rather than later, or simply stop making phones. And I think they've got two quarters to make that decision.

    Chen has already stated the passing grade for BB to continue with phones (10M/year). I doubt he was joking.
    Last edited by JeepBB; 02-10-15 at 03:50 AM.
    Witmen likes this.
    02-10-15 03:38 AM
  4. tchocky77's Avatar
    Oh really? They only invented communication..aka Ma Bell. Who do you think is the world largest carrier? Besides China's government...

    Posted via the pure awesomeness of blackberry.
    "They only invented communication."

    Oooooookay then!

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    02-10-15 03:46 AM
  5. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Now, let's fast forward...the Hub is hands down the best, anyone would agree. So given the fact that the Hub masters communications..why would people by other products?
    Well, first, "mastering communication" is a nebulous term. Communication, as a concept, differs from person to person. For me, communication encompasses the ability to reach all the entities I need to reach easily -- on the most platforms available. Communication also covers the ability to have a cloud-compatible dictionary populated on several mobile devices, and the ability to, say, seamlessly manage two phone numbers from a single device.

    To expand, email communication needs are different. For instance, if a company uses Google Apps, well, Gmail might be the better management tool.

    So, is the Hub fantastic? IMHO, absolutely. But don't be surprised that it might not be the anchor utility for everybody. Much as I would pay for it, it doesn't necessarily make up for deficiencies elsewhere with regards to my workflow.
    MarsupilamiX and Witmen like this.
    02-10-15 09:14 AM
  6. Soulstream's Avatar
    Microsoft is only doing this to take a jab at Google. They aren't doing it to make Android "more open".

    The truth is as long as google controls their Google play services right, no Android fork is going to have great success in the western world.
    02-10-15 10:45 AM
  7. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    I mostly agree with that. Some Apps are definitely better than No Apps.

    Unfortunately, for BB, the reality is that they've entered into a Faustian Pact over the android runtime. Far from being the saviour of BB10, it's likely to be the cause of its demise.

    When your USP is that your phone can run some, but not all, Android Apps acceptably well; it's hard to answer the inevitable "so why wouldn't I buy an Android phone and be able to run them all?" question. The answer on these forums frequently involves the BB10 Hub, which is I doubt enough to counter the pull towards Android.

    My guess is that BB will go full Android sooner rather than later, or simply stop making phones. And I think they've got two quarters to make that decision.

    Chen has already stated the passing grade for BB to continue with phones (10M/year). I doubt he was joking.
    You say you mostly agree, but then go back to the tired old argument that the android player will be the cause of BB10's demise. IMO, the Android player is the last of BB10's issues. Take it away and it doesn't magically become the #1 OS and ecosystem. BBB10's problems run far and deep; late to market, numerous missing legacy features, inability to convince legacy Bold users to upgrade (missing BELT), horrific marketing, near bankruptcy of the company which left many people thinking they did in fact go bankrupt, poor public perception, damaged carrier relationships, damaged developer relations, and on, and on. Now looking at that list, tell me the Android player will be the cause of BB10's demise? In fact, going back and reading Passport reviews, most tech journalists commented that many apps were now there via amazon. Apps weren't as big of an issue. Joanna Stern was the only one that listed her missing key apps. The issue was really with the size and shape of the phone. Which then begs the question; how would a traditional touch with great HW specs and 10.3.1 and Amazon preloaded do in the eyes of reviewers and consumers? And I will also add, I agree that BB needs to hit their HW target and that Chen wasn't joking about it, but if they want to sell devices they need to fully invested in the devices business. And in 2014, they were not. We basically saw a limited run of 200,000 Passports as the only new device they released. Hard to find success in HW with a strategy like this.
    02-10-15 06:49 PM
  8. JeepBB's Avatar
    You say you mostly agree, but then go back to the tired old argument that the android player will be the cause of BB10's demise. IMO, the Android player is the last of BB10's issues. Take it away and it doesn't magically become the #1 OS and ecosystem. BBB10's problems run far and deep; late to market, numerous missing legacy features, inability to convince legacy Bold users to upgrade (missing BELT), horrific marketing, near bankruptcy of the company which left many people thinking they did in fact go bankrupt, poor public perception, damaged carrier relationships, damaged developer relations, and on, and on. Now looking at that list, tell me the Android player will be the cause of BB10's demise? In fact, going back and reading Passport reviews, most tech journalists commented that many apps were now there via amazon. Apps weren't as big of an issue. Joanna Stern was the only one that listed her missing key apps. The issue was really with the size and shape of the phone. Which then begs the question; how would a traditional touch with great HW specs and 10.3.1 and Amazon preloaded do in the eyes of reviewers and consumers? And I will also add, I agree that BB needs to hit their HW target and that Chen wasn't joking about it, but if they want to sell devices they need to fully invested in the devices business. And in 2014, they were not. We basically saw a limited run of 200,000 Passports as the only new device they released. Hard to find success in HW with a strategy like this.
    At the risk of antagonising you, not my intent, I'll mostly agree once again. LOL

    To be serious, I reckon I wasn't clear in my previous post. I'm not saying that the runtime is BB10's biggest issue, but that it was seen as a solution to the App Gap and eagerly embraced by BB as the saviour of the platform... and it won't be. At the time it may have been BB's only chance, but taking that deal with the devil led BB along an entirely predictable road to nowhere. Native App development for BB10 stalled, few of the Android devs could be bothered to tweak their Apps for BB10, fewer still could be bothered to port their Apps to BBW.

    Take the runtime away from BB10, and there is no compelling reason to buy a BB10 phone, for all the reasons you mention. The runtime has become the lifebelt keeping the platform's head above water. If BB keep the runtime, then you continue to rely on a forked Android store to provide an inconsistent App experience, and only for those Apps that don't rely on Google Play Services. A runtime, however well implemented, is no substitute for a real Android environment. Hence my premise that the runtime will lead to BB10's demise, not of itself, but because of the road to nowhere that it has led BB along. And that's the real sting in the tail of this deal with the devil - the runtime won't save BB10, but (by existing) has killed the native App development that *might* have saved BB10.

    Your last paragraph on success in HW was also interesting as it keys into my own thoughts.

    I agree with you that the current small runs of devices are no way to HW success, and Chen (not a stupid man) must realise that. So why do it?

    The answer I keep arriving at is that Chen doesn't care about HW success because that isn't a space BB intends to be in for much longer.

    If I were BB, and I intended to exit consumer HW, I wouldn't take full page Ads in the press to announce it - that would lead to incredibly bad PR. I'd simply fail to refresh my ageing line of touchscreen phones, and continue to sell as many of the new keyboard range as my enterprise customers demanded. I wouldn't prevent general consumers from also buying those phones if they wanted, but they wouldn't be my target. Eventually, it would become apparent that BB *had* exited consumer HW, but only eventually... and the PR fallout would be more manageable.

    I've seen a few "when will a new touchscreen phone come?" threads recently. Some posters have mentioned waiting until MWC in March to see what BB announce. AFAIK, BB aren't even on the list of exhibitors at MWC. That doesn't mean that Chen won't fly-in, announce something, and fly-out again... But, I'm not sure that would be a ringing endorsement of Chen's commitment to HW, even if it were to happen.
    Last edited by JeepBB; 02-11-15 at 08:53 AM.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    02-11-15 04:17 AM
  9. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    At the risk of antagonising you, not my intent, I'll mostly agree once again. LOL

    To be serious, I reckon I wasn't clear in my previous post. I'm not saying that the runtime is BB10's biggest issue, but that it was seen as a solution to the App Gap and eagerly embraced by BB as the saviour of the platform... and it won't be. At the time it may have been BB's only chance, but taking that deal with the devil led BB along an entirely predictable road to nowhere. Native App development for BB10 stalled, few of the Android devs could be bothered to tweak their Apps for BB10, fewer still could be bothered to port their Apps to BBW.

    Take the runtime away from BB10, and there is no compelling reason to buy a BB10 phone, for all the reasons you mention. The runtime has become the lifebelt keeping the platform's head above water. If BB keep the runtime, then you continue to rely on a forked Android store to provide an inconsistent App experience, and only for those Apps that don't rely on Google Play Services. A runtime, however well implemented, is no substitute for a real Android environment. Hence my premise that the runtime will lead to BB10's demise, not of itself, but because of the road to nowhere that it has led BB along. And that's the real sting in the tail of this deal with the devil - the runtime won't save BB10, but (by existing) has killed the native App development that *might* have saved BB10.

    Your last paragraph on success in HW was also interesting as it keys into my own thoughts.

    I agree with you that the current small runs of devices are no way to HW success, and Chen (not a stupid man) must realise that. So why do it?

    The answer I keep arriving at is that Chen doesn't care about HW success because that isn't a space BB intends to be in for much longer.

    If I were BB, and I intended to exit consumer HW, I wouldn't take full page Ads in the press to announce it - that would lead to incredibly bad PR. I'd simply fail to refresh my ageing line of touchscreen phones, and continue to sell as many of the new keyboard range as my enterprise customers demanded. I wouldn't prevent general consumers from also buying those phones if they wanted, but they wouldn't be my target. Eventually, it would become apparent that BB *had* exited consumer HW, but only eventually... and the PR fallout would be more manageable.

    I've seen a few "when will a new touchscreen phone come?" threads recently. Some posters have mentioned waiting until MWC in March to see what BB announce. AFAIK, BB aren't even on the list of exhibitors at MWC. That doesn't mean that Chen won't fly-in, announce something, and fly-out again... But, I'm not sure that would be a ringing endorsement of Chen's commitment to HW, even if it were to happen.
    So let's start from the beginning. Let's assume there was no Android runtime on the Playbook which was released in April 2011. And then let's also assume that there was no Android runtime on BB10 which was released in January of 2013. Where do you think we would we be today in general terms (HW, OS), and specifically in apps/ecosystem?

    I agree with you for the most part about HW. Actions speak louder than words. And their actions suggest a HW exit. But if the Victoria/Visa does appear, than to me it will signal BB's desire to continue making devices that are different than the norm. They may be banking on these unique types of devices to stand out and hit the 10m device target.
    Toodeurep likes this.
    02-11-15 11:13 AM
  10. ubizmo's Avatar
    I agree with you for the most part about HW. Actions speak louder than words. And their actions suggest a HW exit. But if the Victoria/Visa does appear, than to me it will signal BB's desire to continue making devices that are different than the norm. They may be banking on these unique types of devices to stand out and hit the 10m device target.
    And Chen's remark in December that he still "didn't know" what devices would be released in 2015, taken at face value, suggests he hadn't made any decision about Visa/Victoria at that point.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    02-11-15 12:35 PM
  11. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    And Chen's remark in December that he still "didn't know" what devices would be released in 2015, taken at face value, suggests he hadn't made any decision about Visa/Victoria at that point.
    Yup, no disagreement if we take the comments at face value. But he could be playing coy and may not have wanted to give any insight WRT what was upcoming. Who knows really?
    02-11-15 12:39 PM
  12. ubizmo's Avatar
    Yup, no disagreement if we take the comments at face value. But he could be playing coy and may not have wanted to give any insight WRT what was upcoming. Who knows really?
    It's a guessing game, of course, but if he'd wanted to be a different kind of coy, he could have said something equally vague like, "All I can say at this point is that I'm really excited about what's coming in 2015." That would merely indicate some unspecified exciting device. But he didn't say anything like that, which suggests extreme caution to me.
    JeepBB likes this.
    02-11-15 01:12 PM
  13. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    It's a guessing game, of course, but if he'd wanted to be a different kind of coy, he could have said something equally vague like, "All I can say at this point is that I'm really excited about what's coming in 2015." That would merely indicate some unspecified exciting device. But he didn't say anything like that, which suggests extreme caution to me.
    Chen did also say something about users soon not needing to carry two devices and basically alluding to something exciting coming down the pipe. There is a thread in the rumoured devices forum where folks are speculating what this is, be it a hybrid android/bb10 device, or something else. But your point stands, there are no firm device announcements for us to get excited about.
    02-11-15 01:24 PM
  14. JeepBB's Avatar
    So let's start from the beginning. Let's assume there was no Android runtime on the Playbook which was released in April 2011. And then let's also assume that there was no Android runtime on BB10 which was released in January of 2013. Where do you think we would we be today in general terms (HW, OS), and specifically in apps/ecosystem?

    I agree with you for the most part about HW. Actions speak louder than words. And their actions suggest a HW exit. But if the Victoria/Visa does appear, than to me it will signal BB's desire to continue making devices that are different than the norm. They may be banking on these unique types of devices to stand out and hit the 10m device target.
    OK, I'll play this game of "what if's"

    First off, I've always believed that the Android runtime on the Playbook came about because of some Softie on the Playbook team showing off to his mates. I doubt it was ever intended for official release, but once the genie had escaped from the bottle... it could never be put back. It escaped into the wild with OS2 Beta IIRC, and the crowd went wild with the possibilities that it brought.

    As an aside, I also suspect that the additional resources used by the runtime are largely the reason why BB10 didn't make it to the Playbook. OS2.1+Android RT just fitted into 1GB (though there were crashes now and then IIRC)... whereas BB10+Android RT didn't fit into 1GB, so no BB10 for Playbook.

    So, a world without the Android RT being part of BB10 is actually not that difficult for me to envisage actually.

    As to where BB would be now without the runtime, I reckon there's a range of possibilities that are complicated by the fact that the BB10 version released on the Z10 was, frankly, not ready for prime-time but had to ship anyway because BB10 had already been delayed by over half a year and it was pretty clear that if it hadn't shipped in Q1/13 many potential buyers weren't going to wait any longer.

    So, at one extreme: with an immature BB10 and no runtime to provide Apps, I reckon BB would by now be bust/gone. They'd likely have been sold for buttons as Thor would have bet the company on BB10 and lost.

    BB10.2 was much better, and didn't take too long to release. There would undoubtedly have been people who would have stuck with BB10, even without a RT. You can argue that WinPhone made the same mistake with WP7.5, which also wasn't really complete; and Microsoft pulled through.The same kind of tech-heads, independent thinkers, and hardcore BB Fans who buy Tizen and Jolla devices would have still bought a Z10 with BB10 even without the runtime IMO.

    So lets assume that BB survived the initial disappointment of BB10 V10.0 and made a few sales. In that scenario, I think BB would have been in Microsoft's position - though with considerably fewer resources to play with - of having to attract Apps to the platform.

    But, BB tried attracting Devs to BB10, it didn't work! (is what I hear you shouting at the screen. )

    The difference is the absence, in this alternate reality, of the Android runtime. Without the runtime, Devs couldn't do what they actually did in the present reality. It wouldn't have been possible to make a half-hearted attempt at supporting BB10 by providing their Android App... and, conscience-cleared, never get around to building a native BB10 App. They'd have either supported BB10 with native Apps, and helped contribute to building the native BB10 ecosystem, or they wouldn't. A BB10 without the runtime would have stood (or fallen) on it's own merits instead of (as now) being in a strange limbo of "merely" being the host platform for an Android runtime that runs all the Apps people really, really want.

    Just like Microsoft with WP7/8, BB10 would've struggled to gain traction and it could have gone either way (as it still might with WinPhone), but there could be no possibility of Devs being "soft" in their support (or not) of BB10.

    I will quickly say that I have no axe to grind against Devs in the present reality who have provided Android Apps rather than native Apps. In their position, and for solid commercial reasons, I would have done exactly the same and reduced my cost of development by quickly re-packaging my Android App for BB10.

    So, at the other extreme: BB10 (without runtime) would now be a small, but growing platform with a core of native Apps fighting it out with WinPhone for 3rd place (which is actually no place at all, as you have to be #1 or #2 to count, but you don't get to #2 without being #3 first! ).

    It's an interesting thought experiment, though we'll obviously never know how it might have been.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    02-11-15 02:41 PM
  15. JeepBB's Avatar
    Chen did also say something about users soon not needing to carry two devices and basically alluding to something exciting coming down the pipe. There is a thread in the rumoured devices forum where folks are speculating what this is, be it a hybrid android/bb10 device, or something else. But your point stands, there are no firm device announcements for us to get excited about.
    I think the "no need to carry two phones" thing is actually the software company that BB bought a couple of months back. They make a package that allows a single device to appear to be two (or more) different phone numbers. I don't know a lot about it, but it's cleverer than it sounds (two phone numbers) and is just like having two handsets in the same physical device.
    02-11-15 02:46 PM
  16. Ment's Avatar
    I think the "no need to carry two phones" thing is actually the software company that BB bought a couple of months back. They make a package that allows a single device to appear to be two (or more) different phone numbers. I don't know a lot about it, but it's cleverer than it sounds (two phone numbers) and is just like having two handsets in the same physical device.
    Yes the virtual sim device. Unfortunately I believe any implementation of that would be carrier dependent so support will be hit and miss.
    JeepBB likes this.
    02-11-15 03:08 PM
  17. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    OK, I'll play this game of "what if's"

    First off, I've always believed that the Android runtime on the Playbook came about because of some Softie on the Playbook team showing off to his mates. I doubt it was ever intended for official release, but once the genie had escaped from the bottle... it could never be put back. It escaped into the wild with OS2 Beta IIRC, and the crowd went wild with the possibilities that it brought.

    As an aside, I also suspect that the additional resources used by the runtime are largely the reason why BB10 didn't make it to the Playbook. OS2.1+Android RT just fitted into 1GB (though there were crashes now and then IIRC)... whereas BB10+Android RT didn't fit into 1GB, so no BB10 for Playbook.

    So, a world without the Android RT being part of BB10 is actually not that difficult for me to envisage actually.

    As to where BB would be now without the runtime, I reckon there's a range of possibilities that are complicated by the fact that the BB10 version released on the Z10 was, frankly, not ready for prime-time but had to ship anyway because BB10 had already been delayed by over half a year and it was pretty clear that if it hadn't shipped in Q1/13 many potential buyers weren't going to wait any longer.

    So, at one extreme: with an immature BB10 and no runtime to provide Apps, I reckon BB would by now be bust/gone. They'd likely have been sold for buttons as Thor would have bet the company on BB10 and lost.

    BB10.2 was much better, and didn't take too long to release. There would undoubtedly have been people who would have stuck with BB10, even without a RT. You can argue that WinPhone made the same mistake with WP7.5, which also wasn't really complete; and Microsoft pulled through.The same kind of tech-heads, independent thinkers, and hardcore BB Fans who buy Tizen and Jolla devices would have still bought a Z10 with BB10 even without the runtime IMO.

    So lets assume that BB survived the initial disappointment of BB10 V10.0 and made a few sales. In that scenario, I think BB would have been in Microsoft's position - though with considerably fewer resources to play with - of having to attract Apps to the platform.

    But, BB tried attracting Devs to BB10, it didn't work! (is what I hear you shouting at the screen. )

    The difference is the absence, in this alternate reality, of the Android runtime. Without the runtime, Devs couldn't do what they actually did in the present reality. It wouldn't have been possible to make a half-hearted attempt at supporting BB10 by providing their Android App... and, conscience-cleared, never get around to building a native BB10 App. They'd have either supported BB10 with native Apps, and helped contribute to building the native BB10 ecosystem, or they wouldn't. A BB10 without the runtime would have stood (or fallen) on it's own merits instead of (as now) being in a strange limbo of "merely" being the host platform for an Android runtime that runs all the Apps people really, really want.

    Just like Microsoft with WP7/8, BB10 would've struggled to gain traction and it could have gone either way (as it still might with WinPhone), but there could be no possibility of Devs being "soft" in their support (or not) of BB10.

    I will quickly say that I have no axe to grind against Devs in the present reality who have provided Android Apps rather than native Apps. In their position, and for solid commercial reasons, I would have done exactly the same and reduced my cost of development by quickly re-packaging my Android App for BB10.

    So, at the other extreme: BB10 (without runtime) would now be a small, but growing platform with a core of native Apps fighting it out with WinPhone for 3rd place (which is actually no place at all, as you have to be #1 or #2 to count, but you don't get to #2 without being #3 first! ).

    It's an interesting thought experiment, though we'll obviously never know how it might have been.
    I'll differ with you and say that in BlackBerry's case, no Android RT would mean no BlackBerry handsets today. They just did not (and do not now) have resources to pull in / buy native apps like Microsoft is doing. They also don't have a hail mary in the form of a unified desktop and mobile platform like Microsoft. And who knows, if that does not bare fruit for them we could see android in win phone too.

    I truly believe that if the handset division survives it will be because of the run time. I look at it as a stepping stone that allows them to get apps on the platform. They can gather analytics and go to devs with a strong case for a native app. But before any of that can happen they need to fix the myriad of other much larger issues I highlighted in a previous post. It is those things that will cause their demise.

    Posted via CB10
    Toodeurep and mornhavon like this.
    02-11-15 03:47 PM
  18. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Great discussion. I love hearing folks banter constructively.

    I tend to think the Runtime is a myopic albatross at this point. Hindsight is great, but (considering I believe ecosystem is BBRY's biggest issue) I think it puts BBRY in a permanently reactive state that is difficult to lead from.
    02-11-15 05:11 PM
  19. Toodeurep's Avatar
    Great discussion. I love hearing folks banter constructively.
    Agreed with this portion 100%

    LULT has hit the nail on the head from where I sit. I see both sides, so I decided that I would probably be gone without the .apk crutch. That tips my opinion.

    To be more specific, I really think the customers have to come before the apps in regards to BB. I was hoping they would make sub $200 devices to accomplish that but alas...
    02-11-15 06:01 PM
  20. ADGrant's Avatar
    I'll differ with you and say that in BlackBerry's case, no Android RT would mean no BlackBerry handsets today. They just did not (and do not now) have resources to pull in / buy native apps like Microsoft is doing. They also don't have a hail mary in the form of a unified desktop and mobile platform like Microsoft. And who knows, if that does not bare fruit for them we could see android in win phone too.

    I truly believe that if the handset division survives it will be because of the run time. I look at it as a stepping stone that allows them to get apps on the platform. They can gather analytics and go to devs with a strong case for a native app. But before any of that can happen they need to fix the myriad of other much larger issues I highlighted in a previous post. It is those things that will cause their demise.

    Posted via CB10
    I agree that no AndroidRT would not have significantly increased the number of native apps.

    The idea that developers would feel in anyway compelled to develop native apps if the runtime did not exist is not realistic.
    LuvULongTime and mornhavon like this.
    02-11-15 06:51 PM
  21. ubizmo's Avatar
    I'll differ with you and say that in BlackBerry's case, no Android RT would mean no BlackBerry handsets today. They just did not (and do not now) have resources to pull in / buy native apps like Microsoft is doing. They also don't have a hail mary in the form of a unified desktop and mobile platform like Microsoft. And who knows, if that does not bare fruit for them we could see android in win phone too.
    I'm inclined to agree with your view of this. Even though the Android runtime has put BB10 into a kind of twilight zone, if it hadn't been done I think BlackBerry handsets as we know them would be gone, or there would be a BlackBerry Android phone. That's the other option, and I think it's still on the table, if BlackBerry insists on staying in the handset business.

    I think there is, and will continue to be, a small market niche for highly secure BlackBerry devices on BES, for government and regulated industries. These wouldn't need the Android runtime, and they wouldn't need big specs either. I think this niche is too small to make a lot of money for BlackBerry, but maybe enough to keep them in the handset business in a very limited way.

    But if the current BB10+Android runtime experiment fails in the consumer market, as seems likely (much as I hope it doesn't fail), BlackBerry will either have to get out of the consumer market altogether or revisit the full BlackBerry Android option. I have no idea whether it would succeed. There are many here who would turn up their nose at such a device, but I think (guess) others would be intrigued. The BB10 UI would certainly differentiate it from other Android handsets.

    I am certain this option has already been well researched, and prototypes built. But I'm also confident they would only consider this after BB10 in the consumer space was declared dead, which hasn't happened yet. I don't personally think BlackBerry will completely exit the consumer handset market without trying it.
    02-12-15 08:42 AM
  22. JeepBB's Avatar
    As I said above, there's a whole spectrum of possibilities in that alternative history where the Android RT didn't exist. The most favourable outcome I thought was possible was one where BB was toe-to-toe for #3 position in terms of marketshare and native apps. I don't believe it was the most likely scenario tho'.

    Building a new ecosystem from scratch is possible. Microsoft have done it, though admittedly with greater resources than BB, and are slowly growing their App Store. No compulsion of Devs was necessary to achieve that, the Devs must have decided that the future ROI made sense. Tho' I'm sure some money might have changed hands too.

    Whoosh ... Back to this reality....

    I reckon a no-handsets future is more likely than an Android future actually. I can't see what BB's USP would be as one of many Android handset manufacturers. It won't be price, as BB have *never* been able to compete on price. It *could* be security - maybe BB could use some of the Samsung Knox technology - but, as has been demonstrated on many occasions; consumers don't really care about security. Yes, even after numerous security leaks, I really doubt that Joe Average bases a phone purchase decision on security.

    It may still happen that BB release a Google Android phone (and it would *have* to be *Google* Android and support Google Play Services or there would be no point) as a last ditch move. I don't see why anyone would choose it over any of the other Android offering though. What advantages of a BB Android device am I missing? Why would it stand any chance of succeeding?
    02-12-15 09:16 AM
  23. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    I tend to agree: from scratch world have been hard, but preferable at this point.

    Again, this is with hindsight.
    02-12-15 09:24 AM
  24. ubizmo's Avatar
    It may still happen that BB release a Google Android phone (and it would *have* to be *Google* Android and support Google Play Services or there would be no point) as a last ditch move. I don't see why anyone would choose it over any of the other Android offering though. What advantages of a BB Android device am I missing? Why would it stand any chance of succeeding?
    Done well, it would offer the BB10 UI, which most of us here find very attractive, else we wouldn't be using BB10 devices. If, for example, it included the Hub, and Peek access, it would already go well beyond what other OEM Android skins offer. But I don't know what the limits of BB10 emulation in Android might be.

    My assumption here is that BB10 does offer a uniquely good user experience, but that isn't enough in itself to outweigh the app problem. Full Android compliance solves the app problem, leaving the challenge of preserving the BB10 experience. That would make it possible to choose that experience without giving up anything that smartphone users have come to expect as a given: a robust app catalog.

    Reviews of BB10 have generally been very positive, but they pretty much all contain that stinger, "If you can live without certain apps...". No matter how gently that is phrased, the message is clear, and it's not a message that's welcome in the consumer market. If a BlackBerry Android could get comparable reviews without that stinger, consumer reaction would be stronger, I think.
    02-12-15 09:41 AM
  25. JeepBB's Avatar
    Done well, it would offer the BB10 UI, which most of us here find very attractive, else we wouldn't be using BB10 devices. If, for example, it included the Hub, and Peek access, it would already go well beyond what other OEM Android skins offer. But I don't know what the limits of BB10 emulation in Android might be.

    My assumption here is that BB10 does offer a uniquely good user experience, but that isn't enough in itself to outweigh the app problem. Full Android compliance solves the app problem, leaving the challenge of preserving the BB10 experience. That would make it possible to choose that experience without giving up anything that smartphone users have come to expect as a given: a robust app catalog.

    Reviews of BB10 have generally been very positive, but they pretty much all contain that stinger, "If you can live without certain apps...". No matter how gently that is phrased, the message is clear, and it's not a message that's welcome in the consumer market. If a BlackBerry Android could get comparable reviews without that stinger, consumer reaction would be stronger, I think.
    A fair point.

    I've always seen good reviews of the Hub, and the peek/flow paradigm. From articles that I've read, re-skinning Android to present a close approximation of the BB10 UI is apparently possible.

    Is it enough though?

    And, given BB's (much criticised and long-standing) inability to produce handsets at a comparative market price, could it compete?

    Much as I'll grant you that the Hub is very nice, How many Average Joes would pay an extra $x00 for an Android phone with a (subjectively) nicer UI?
    02-12-15 09:57 AM
174 ... 4567

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 15
    Last Post: 02-08-15, 03:57 AM
  2. Please help to ask Deezer to update App
    By Agile Dev in forum BlackBerry Passport
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 01-30-15, 09:48 AM
  3. I was unable to install lucky patcher
    By arun mohan2 in forum Ask a Question
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-30-15, 07:49 AM
  4. Facebook for BlackBerry 10 exits Beta Zone, updated in BlackBerry World
    By CrackBerry News in forum CrackBerry.com News Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-29-15, 02:12 PM
  5. Better to wait for Micro SD before installing??
    By mawil1013 in forum BlackBerry 10 OS
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-29-15, 01:27 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD