03-07-15 08:35 PM
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  1. anon3923428's Avatar
    PARITY shouldn't be forced upon an industry via government mandate, and that's what Chen is after.
    What I think he is saying is that, there should be an equal opportunity for all manufacturer and by not having certain apps available on BlackBerry is a monopoly on itself and that should not be the case. That's what he's trying to convey.

    Posted via CB10
    01-23-15 10:47 AM
  2. MikeX74's Avatar
    What I think he is saying is that, there should be an equal opportunity for all manufacturer and by not having certain apps available on BlackBerry is a monopoly on itself and that should not be the case. That's what he's trying to convey.

    Posted via CB10
    Nobody is arguing that parity shouldn't exist. What is at issue is the idea that parity should be forced or enforced by the government. If Blackberry wants parity with iOS and Android as far as apps go, it should be because devs think BB10 is worth investing their time and money to build apps for, not because the POTUS, Congress, or the FCC says so.
    jmr1015 likes this.
    01-23-15 11:06 AM
  3. anon3923428's Avatar
    Nobody is arguing that parity shouldn't exist. What is at issue is the idea that parity should be forced or enforced by the government. If Blackberry wants parity with iOS and Android as far as apps go, it should be because devs think BB10 is worth investing their time and money to build apps for, not because the POTUS, Congress, or the FCC says so.
    Why not, our government has imposed a lot on us already, at least this enforcement would benefit us..... lol.

    Posted via CB10
    01-23-15 11:12 AM
  4. MikeX74's Avatar
    And we both know Mr. Chen isn't incompetent.

    Posted via CB10
    I didn't say he was. You said that the press made him look incompetent. I said that he made himself look incompetent. Subtle difference.
    01-23-15 11:14 AM
  5. xandermac's Avatar
    How can a company demand that a 3rd party pay to develop an app for their platform, which could cost in the millions, then curate their app store and dictate what gets in and what doesn't and what restrictions it places on said apps. This guy is proving to be a complete moron.
    mikeo007 likes this.
    01-23-15 11:36 AM
  6. eddy_berry's Avatar
    What about the issue of being anti-competitive. I'm thinking more about the situation BlackBerry had with Instagram. They were willing to make their own app, support it and pay Instagram for barely lifting a finger just to get that app. As soon as they said "okay sure" BlackBerry would have had an Android port ready to go until a native version could be implemented. I think Chen could have done this differently and had better results. It's not about forcing developers to make apps for small players but allowing small players to add and support popular applications to allow those device to compete. For example, I wouldn't expect Google to say okay because Android OS is a direct competitor. But how is Instagram a direct competitor of BlackBerry? How is Instagram or Netflix losing out by allowing BlackBerry to build a native app? They can even lay down rules if they want to keep a certain standard for something with their name on it. I mean a contract would be necessary obviously. These are the small percentage of apps that a) aren't built by BlackBerry competitors and b) draw the crowd, not follow the crowd. They're the types of apps that some people use in order to not be socially outcast or to not be out of the loop in their circle of friends, family or clients. It forces everyone to the same big players and shuts out all the competition. After that, having a standard for apps would allow other apps to easily migrate from one platform to another. I mean, all platforms can easily play 3D games, but the games are only being put on Major platforms because that's where 95% of people are. So saying "who cares about the other 5%?" is anti-competitive. If Chen is looking for app neutrality, yes it helps BlackBerry, but it also helps all the small players and some bigger ones like Microsoft or Samsung and that could destroy BlackBerry just as easily. I just don't think Chen did it the right way. At least he had the balls to say something.

    Posted via CB10
    01-23-15 11:46 AM
  7. anon1727506's Avatar
    No should should be left out either like the millions of bb10 users at this point. I remember two years ago when BlackBerry wanted snap chat and the developer said to BlackBerry. That they didn't have enough users to justify an app for BlackBerry. BlackBerry argument was that if the app was available, more people would possibly buy BlackBerry and by not having the app, users who use that app may not buy BlackBerry because that app is missing. The developer simply said, we shall see. Three years later and I still don't see a lot of apps that other platforms have. There are a lot of users now but still no apps. So you see, it's a cause and effect type of situation. Bb10 rocks and we all know this but without certain apps, many people who rely on said apps won't even consider BlackBerry. That is a fact.

    And we both know Mr. Chen isn't incompetent.

    Posted via CB10
    If you buy a device that doesn't have Snap Chat... who's fault is that?

    There are a lot of factors that go into deciding to build for a platform. Ten years ago having 10 million users would have been enough. Today that number might be 100 million users or more (BBOS had 70 Million at one time and didn't get all the attention we wanted). A while back I saw Microsoft had sold over 400 million Windows 8 and 8.1 licenses. And yet developers aren't exactly banging down the doors to the Windows platform.

    BlackBerry made a number of mistakes when it comes to developers... courting them should have happened back with the PlayBook. But the PlayBook flopped and then the Z10 and even the Q10 fell flat. At this point IT AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN! Chen is crying over spilt milk... if he want's to make a statement he should show up on Facebook doorstep and offer them 10% of the company in exchange for an official Facebook and Instagram app. With a part of the company, Facebook might then put pressure on developers that they work with....
    jmr1015 and MikeX74 like this.
    01-23-15 11:52 AM
  8. donnation's Avatar
    Lol what's funny about this whole thing is that BB just posted a week ago that a web shortcut was just as good as an app. So here again BB's right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.
    mornhavon and xandermac like this.
    01-23-15 11:54 AM
  9. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    Seriously!?! Cmon

    Yes.... it's an android app. Built for Android not BlackBerry....
    Yes seriously.

    BBRY touts the Android Runtime as being a solution to get apps to BB10. As a result, Netflix is available to BB10 devices. Why would Netflix even bother to devote resources to develop an entirely new app for BB10 when there is already a functional app usable with BB10 devices? Even should the time come when BB10 devices gains significant market share, developers can (and likely will) simply develop one app for Android and expect that to also be their BB10 version. If you're not happy with that then the onus is on BBRY's decisions, not the developers, so you'd do better to focus your angst with BBRY. To suggest that an entire industry should be forced to change to accommodate the wishes of one struggling platform is just folly at best.
    01-23-15 12:07 PM
  10. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Look at it from Instagram's perspective: their app is the "keys to their kingdom", and since they have never published a public API, in order for anyone else to make a fully-featured app, Instagram would have to hand over their proprietary, self-developed technology to another company - a company that could potentially use that technology to compete with Instagram.

    Keep in mind that BBM is something of a competitor against Instagram. I'm not saying they are intended to be identical, but both are common ways that people communicate with each other today.

    And the fact is that Instagram has not allowed any other company to have access to its own internal code and processes. I'm sure other companies would like some access too, not just BB.

    This is just another example of people here seeing everything only from BB's perspective, and never bothering to look at things from the perspective of the company that BB is wanting things from.14

    It's like the old story of two squirrels. The first one works hard all summer doing the tedious work of finding and gathering and storing nuts for the winter. The second stands around watching and laughing at the first, saying "The weather is beautiful, and winter will probably never come. You are dumb for wasting your time on hard work when you could be enjoying it like me."

    Then winter does come, and the second squirrel starts to get hungry, but there are no nuts to be found, so he demands that the first squirrel share the nuts he so carefully gathered over the summer months, because "it isn't fair that you have food to eat and I don't - I might die!"

    There were rumors of Apple making a phone back in 2005, and by 2006, it was well-known that a phone was forthcoming. That was Apple gathering nuts, while BB watched and laughed. Then the iPhone was released in late 2006. More laughing from BB. And BB continued to laugh as Apple and Google gathered nuts, until 2010, when it was clear to BB that winter really WAS coming, and that BB had made no provisions for it. And having spent several years with no food, and no end to winter in sight, BB is now demanding that the other companies be forced by the government to share their nuts so that BB doesn't die of hunger during this bleak winter that BB insisted would never come.
    01-23-15 12:09 PM
  11. MrGlenn's Avatar
    As I said before, where do you draw the line? 5% market share? 1%?

    Software development isn't easy (or else everybody would do it) and isn't cheap either.
    I wouldn't draw a line for the OS at all! I would draw a line for what kind of developer/company/content provider we look at. At what scale they operate on. At what one or two extra apps would actually cut into their profits.

    Individual developers managing small community apps? Sure, limit it to whatever platform they feel comfortable with that's fine, no one will lose. And for Net neutrality they most likely won't be affected anyway no matter which way that goes.

    However: for major content providers that make millions in profits, have userbases in the millions, have a massive public presence? Why not expect them to cater to all platforms as well if they are so adamant about reaching all their potential customers?

    Talking about OS userbase as a measure for when something should get an app is exactly what is wrong with the discussion! If they say an OS is too small to build for, while at the same time complaining changes in Net neutrality will prevent them from reaching their potential customers is just bad logic.

    BlackBerry Passport signed @ C0007CC89
    01-23-15 12:12 PM
  12. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Because both android and I OS and WP8 all have an app.... I'll say it again... an app. Where's BlackBerry s app? How many BlackBerry users are out there. More than a million right? Doesn't sound silly to me and to many who see it my way at all.

    Posted via CB10
    Not enough to justify Netflix making an app for it. Simple economics.

    Where is BBM for Tizen? Firefox OS? Symbian? Is that discrimination?

    Every company has an ROI threshold. There are several companies that develop for iOS that do not develop for Android because the developers feel there isn't enough ROI. It's business.

    Netflix initially made an app for iOS. Android folks were up in arms. Well, until Android had the marketshare to make itself worthwhile, Netflix didn't do it. Again, simple economics. The same process applies to Windows-based devices (beyond just WP8). And before someone cites Netflix being available on Playstation handhelds as "proof" of discrimination, remember Sony is way bigger than handhelds.

    Netflix has been consistent. The cost of development and maintenance of an app needs to to be justified by the potential of new subs. Netflix uses the app to attract new subs. Over Christmas, I personally know of 4 people/families that started subs to Netflix. They got Netflix because they all procured a TV or a device with Netflix on it. That is what Netflix wants.

    Now, at this point, the number of new subs it would get from BB10 simply just don't justify development. Now, what was the response by some? The Great Netflix Strike of 2013, which only highlighted how little leverage we have as BB users.

    Then there was the insanity of BBRY being "willing to send" over developers to Netflix, and BB execs retweeting insults directed Netflix' CEO. The former was such a trite response that completely devalued Netflix, but hey.

    It is amazing to me that a company with BlackBerry's cache of intellectual knowledge would take this stance.
    LuvULongTime likes this.
    01-23-15 12:31 PM
  13. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Yes seriously.

    BBRY touts the Android Runtime as being a solution to get apps to BB10. As a result, Netflix is available to BB10 devices. Why would Netflix even bother to devote resources to develop an entirely new app for BB10 when there is already a functional app usable with BB10 devices? Even should the time come when BB10 devices gains significant market share, developers can (and likely will) simply develop one app for Android and expect that to also be their BB10 version. If you're not happy with that then the onus is on BBRY's decisions, not the developers, so you'd do better to focus your angst with BBRY. To suggest that an entire industry should be forced to change to accommodate the wishes of one struggling platform is just folly at best.
    Exactly.

    If BlackBerry wants Netflix available natively on BB10, it would would have it. The runtime is a shortcut... a cheap one that precludes the need to spend he resources truly needed to correct the self-inflicted app gap.
    01-23-15 12:36 PM
  14. Soulstream's Avatar
    I wouldn't draw a line for the OS at all! I would draw a line for what kind of developer/company/content provider we look at. At what scale they operate on. At what one or two extra apps would actually cut into their profits.

    Individual developers managing small community apps? Sure, limit it to whatever platform they feel comfortable with that's fine, no one will lose. And for Net neutrality they most likely won't be affected anyway no matter which way that goes.

    However: for major content providers that make millions in profits, have userbases in the millions, have a massive public presence? Why not expect them to cater to all platforms as well if they are so adamant about reaching all their potential customers?

    Talking about OS userbase as a measure for when something should get an app is exactly what is wrong with the discussion! If they say an OS is too small to build for, while at the same time complaining changes in Net neutrality will prevent them from reaching their potential customers is just bad logic.

    BlackBerry Passport signed @ C0007CC89
    Actually Android central has a good article on this: http://www.androidcentral.com/how-yo...-dream-reality

    Net neutrality prevents ISP's from limiting traffic across network from certain services reaching consumers.Attaching app-neutrality to it is pretty crazi cause it has nothing to do with it. You as a consumer can't do anything about an ISP limiting network traffic. If App X is so important to you you can just buy another smartphone.
    01-23-15 12:39 PM
  15. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    However: for major content providers that make millions in profits, have userbases in the millions, have a massive public presence? Why not expect them to cater to all platforms as well if they are so adamant about reaching all their potential customers?

    Talking about OS userbase as a measure for when something should get an app is exactly what is wrong with the discussion! If they say an OS is too small to build for, while at the same time complaining changes in Net neutrality will prevent them from reaching their potential customers is just bad logic.
    Where is the cut-off? How much marketshare do you have to have to qualify? Should all these big companies have to write an app for Tizen? Ubuntu? Sailfish? WebOS? Meebo? PalmOS? Symbian? I mean, I'm sure there are uses of all of these who would like an app. Surely there has to be a cut-off, right?
    jmr1015 likes this.
    01-23-15 12:39 PM
  16. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Doesn't work properly, thanks though.

    I don't agree with the way Chen stated his thoughts about apps, but I do agree with the sentiment.

    If content providers say they want to be able to connect to their customers without any party limiting this in any way, because their customers should have unimpeded access to their service at all times, they should also look at their own practices where they don't support all (reasonably large) platforms. Because that is also a form of limiting your customer's choice.

    Of course they shouldn't be forced, but it sounds to me more like common courtesy of these content providers to support all platforms if "unimpeded connectivity" is so high on their priority list.

    BlackBerry Passport signed @ C0007CC89
    Those companies are all about the bottom line.

    Netflix doesn't care about Android users. They care about the potential for new Android users to sign up for is services.

    Should BBRY feel compelled to share BBM, BB Travel, BB keyboard etc with all mobile platforms?

    Let's look at it from an ROI perspective. If you had limited resources (all companies do), and you wanted to cover the most people with the least investment of said resources, which would you pick?
    01-23-15 12:42 PM
  17. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Where is the cut-off? How much marketshare do you have to have to qualify? Should all these big companies have to write an app for Tizen? Ubuntu? Sailfish? WebOS? Meebo? PalmOS? Symbian? I mean, I'm sure there are uses of all of these who would like an app. Surely there has to be a cut-off, right?
    All I know is that if I do not have a BBM client on my Treo by the end of the week, BBRY will feel my wrath via letter to Congress.

    Viva la app neutrality!
    01-23-15 12:46 PM
  18. asherN's Avatar
    He should be careful what he wishes for. For now, BBM is a common platform between BB10 and iOS users. You're 1 out of your 20 friends with a BB, you may be able to get them to load BBM on their iPhone. But if iMessage comes to BB, your iOS friends will make you use iMessage. Less BBM downloads.
    Cynycl likes this.
    01-23-15 12:53 PM
  19. ljfong's Avatar
    Look at it from Instagram's perspective: their app is the "keys to their kingdom", and since they have never published a public API, in order for anyone else to make a fully-featured app, Instagram would have to hand over their proprietary, self-developed technology to another company - a company that could potentially use that technology to compete with Instagram.

    Keep in mind that BBM is something of a competitor against Instagram. I'm not saying they are intended to be identical, but both are common ways that people communicate with each other today.

    And the fact is that Instagram has not allowed any other company to have access to its own internal code and processes. I'm sure other companies would like some access too, not just BB.

    This is just another example of people here seeing everything only from BB's perspective, and never bothering to look at things from the perspective of the company that BB is wanting things from.14

    It's like the old story of two squirrels. The first one works hard all summer doing the tedious work of finding and gathering and storing nuts for the winter. The second stands around watching and laughing at the first, saying "The weather is beautiful, and winter will probably never come. You are dumb for wasting your time on hard work when you could be enjoying it like me."

    Then winter does come, and the second squirrel starts to get hungry, but there are no nuts to be found, so he demands that the first squirrel share the nuts he so carefully gathered over the summer months, because "it isn't fair that you have food to eat and I don't - I might die!"

    There were rumors of Apple making a phone back in 2005, and by 2006, it was well-known that a phone was forthcoming. That was Apple gathering nuts, while BB watched and laughed. Then the iPhone was released in late 2006. More laughing from BB. And BB continued to laugh as Apple and Google gathered nuts, until 2010, when it was clear to BB that winter really WAS coming, and that BB had made no provisions for it. And having spent several years with no food, and no end to winter in sight, BB is now demanding that the other companies be forced by the government to share their nuts so that BB doesn't die of hunger during this bleak winter that BB insisted would never come.
    This has got to be one of the funniest analogy.
    01-23-15 01:07 PM
  20. Cynycl's Avatar
    I wouldn't draw a line for the OS at all! I would draw a line for what kind of developer/company/content provider we look at. At what scale they operate on. At what one or two extra apps would actually cut into their profits.

    Individual developers managing small community apps? Sure, limit it to whatever platform they feel comfortable with that's fine, no one will lose. And for Net neutrality they most likely won't be affected anyway no matter which way that goes.

    However: for major content providers that make millions in profits, have userbases in the millions, have a massive public presence? Why not expect them to cater to all platforms as well if they are so adamant about reaching all their potential customers?

    Talking about OS userbase as a measure for when something should get an app is exactly what is wrong with the discussion! If they say an OS is too small to build for, while at the same time complaining changes in Net neutrality will prevent them from reaching their potential customers is just bad logic.

    BlackBerry Passport signed @ C0007CC89
    That's exactly what Blackberry did. EXPECTED everyone to build apps for them. We're Blackberry, of course everyone is going to do this for us regardless of of what we do or roll out as a half baked OS. Don't worry the fix is "coming soon". We are Blackberry and it's good to be the KING, or so Mel Brooks told me.

    Hubris, is why they are where they are today and why they aren't even a blip on the radar of anyone building apps, and why would they be. Their ecosystem innovation was adding the android runtime. Hey look, you can run android apps half as good as a $25.00 chinese burner phone. Most folks realized that was the end of blackberry app development. If you didn't, well ......

    Expecting is the same as wishing. Wishing in one hand and craping in the other........one fills up a lot faster.
    Last edited by Cynycl; 01-23-15 at 01:50 PM.
    xandermac likes this.
    01-23-15 01:22 PM
  21. crackberry_geek's Avatar
    He should be careful what he wishes for. For now, BBM is a common platform between BB10 and iOS users. You're 1 out of your 20 friends with a BB, you may be able to get them to load BBM on their iPhone. But if iMessage comes to BB, your iOS friends will make you use iMessage. Less BBM downloads.
    Interesting point... and likely very true.

    Posted via CB10
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    01-23-15 01:47 PM
  22. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Look at it from Instagram's perspective: their app is the "keys to their kingdom", and since they have never published a public API, in order for anyone else to make a fully-featured app, Instagram would have to hand over their proprietary, self-developed technology to another company - a company that could potentially use that technology to compete with Instagram.

    Keep in mind that BBM is something of a competitor against Instagram. I'm not saying they are intended to be identical, but both are common ways that people communicate with each other today.

    And the fact is that Instagram has not allowed any other company to have access to its own internal code and processes. I'm sure other companies would like some access too, not just BB.

    This is just another example of people here seeing everything only from BB's perspective, and never bothering to look at things from the perspective of the company that BB is wanting things from.14

    It's like the old story of two squirrels. The first one works hard all summer doing the tedious work of finding and gathering and storing nuts for the winter. The second stands around watching and laughing at the first, saying "The weather is beautiful, and winter will probably never come. You are dumb for wasting your time on hard work when you could be enjoying it like me."

    Then winter does come, and the second squirrel starts to get hungry, but there are no nuts to be found, so he demands that the first squirrel share the nuts he so carefully gathered over the summer months, because "it isn't fair that you have food to eat and I don't - I might die!"

    There were rumors of Apple making a phone back in 2005, and by 2006, it was well-known that a phone was forthcoming. That was Apple gathering nuts, while BB watched and laughed. Then the iPhone was released in late 2006. More laughing from BB. And BB continued to laugh as Apple and Google gathered nuts, until 2010, when it was clear to BB that winter really WAS coming, and that BB had made no provisions for it. And having spent several years with no food, and no end to winter in sight, BB is now demanding that the other companies be forced by the government to share their nuts so that BB doesn't die of hunger during this bleak winter that BB insisted would never come.
    Excuse me, but if you actually read this thread you would see that most of the BB die hards think Chen and BB are morons. So please don't say that we see everything from a BB perspective. Few people here do.

    Nobody expects IG or anyone else to give their intellectual property away. Apps are made when/where there is money to be made. In the case of BB, there is little money to be made, hence no apps.

    And on your last point about them not seeing winter coming... ugh. If you haven't read this article, please do. Don't confuse public salesmanship with internal ignorance. They knew the iPhone was a threat. Coming up with a solution to combat it was not so easy. I don't disagree that it took them too long, but it wasn't from a lack of trying.

    How BlackBerry blew it: The inside story - The Globe and Mail
    01-23-15 01:55 PM
  23. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Exactly.

    If BlackBerry wants Netflix available natively on BB10, it would would have it. The runtime is a shortcut... a cheap one that precludes the need to spend he resources truly needed to correct the self-inflicted app gap.
    The problem is they don't have the resources.
    01-23-15 01:57 PM
  24. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    The problem is they don't have the resources.
    I agree.

    I'd actually go as far as saying that BBRY's decision to skip some of the bigger app bounties was prudent.
    01-23-15 02:24 PM
  25. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    Lol people here think this would mean building native apps for everyone when it could easily be up to the developer to build native apps for iOS and Android and build 1 other version for all others. This is not a crazy idea when you think about it. Except for proprietary things like imessage should stay on iOS. It's not like Apple supports xcode for Windows.

    Posted via CB10
    01-23-15 02:30 PM
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