03-07-15 09:35 PM
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  1. z10Jobe's Avatar
    How many here at BB were crying "monopoly" or "duopoly" when BB and Palm were the two big companies in smartphones? How unfair was it then? Who was crying for Microsoft and Symbian?

    Be honest: you only care about "fairness" when it is YOUR ox being gored. When it's someone else's ox, you are indifferent. And now there are 2 billion smartphone users indifferent to BB's plight.
    Now Troy, be nice. Not many people equate their phone's marketshare with matadors, and you shouldn't be applying John Chen's words to all of us here on Crackberry. BTW, congratulation for being part of the 2 Billion Team. I sure that makes you proud. I know that I was proud when I had a McDonald's coffee last week and looked out on the sign out front where it said "billions and billions served".

    When BB was on top, I was using Ericcson, Sanyo, and Samsung phones, and thought Balsille was being a jerk trying to muscle his way into NHL ownership, when he should have been running a mobile phone company, so I wasn't part of the monopoly back then either. And by the way, Microsoft was doing quite well for themselves back then and had a near monopoly in computer operating systems, so no tears needed to be shed.
    01-28-15 11:15 PM
  2. DaedalusIcarusHelios's Avatar
    The difference in this duopoly is that the app ecosystem is keeping it in place. That's the whole point of this discussion. I don't think there will be any meaningful change until that element is removed from the equation. Unless either Google or Apple suddenly implode, which is highly improbable. Also, comparing things historically isn't quite that easy when you consider market penetration today versus then. Today, nearly everyone has a smartphone, and everyone needs "apps", and you can only get most of the desired apps on two platforms. The market is saturated and most smartphones can do most things well or at least good enough for most people. It doesn't matter how good BB10 or Windows Phone 10 is at certain things compared to iOS and Android, because those differences are minor compared to what has become the app ecosystem.
    01-28-15 11:33 PM
  3. DaedalusIcarusHelios's Avatar
    So when I first started writing iPhone apps 7 years ago, we had the same issue. You either wrote apps for Symbian or for BlackBerry. The duopoly was upended, and this one can be also.

    But the answer isn't putting away the great tools and going back to drawing in crayons with HTML5. Someday someone will make a platform where you can make apps that you can't make on iOS and Android. Then that platform will get all the developer attention it could ever want.

    Apple did that with just a few million users and an SDK that was remarkable compared to the nonsense we were dealing with on BBOS and Symbian in those days.


    Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk
    The app market was pretty much crap back then. Many BB apps were java apps that ran on various platforms. There were only really a handful of useful apps that complimented the native features. The only apps that really mattered to me were Google Maps and Opera (because mobile browsing sucked). I'll give Apple credit, in that they made apps and the whole UX fantastic. Smartphones now have really matured and are everywhere. Something new may come along that is fantastic, but the likelihood of it being successful in spite of having no app ecosystem is pretty much zero.

    I wouldn't liken coding in HTML5 to using Crayons. You can do some awesome stuff with CSS alone. Couple that with doing most of the heavy lifting on the server end (cloud computing), and use web acceleration like Akamai, and you can get something that is just as responsive as a native app. Also, I'm not advocating the death of native apps, and I wouldn't expect them to go away anytime soon, but many apps don't really need to be apps at all.
    01-29-15 12:11 AM
  4. 3MIKE's Avatar
    The app market was pretty much crap back then. Many BB apps were java apps that ran on various platforms. There were only really a handful of useful apps that complimented the native features. The only apps that really mattered to me were Google Maps and Opera (because mobile browsing sucked). I'll give Apple credit, in that they made apps and the whole UX fantastic. Smartphones now have really matured and are everywhere. Something new may come along that is fantastic, but the likelihood of it being successful in spite of having no app ecosystem is pretty much zero.

    I wouldn't liken coding in HTML5 to using Crayons. You can do some awesome stuff with CSS alone. Couple that with doing most of the heavy lifting on the server end (cloud computing), and use web acceleration like Akamai, and you can get something that is just as responsive as a native app. Also, I'm not advocating the death of native apps, and I wouldn't expect them to go away anytime soon, but many apps don't really need to be apps at all.
    Nice skull !!
    01-29-15 12:15 AM
  5. DaedalusIcarusHelios's Avatar
    The point of that example is not to highlight the duopoly, but to say that the duopoly has been chosen and encouraged. Developers(for the most part) have CHOSEN to only support iOS and Android, with some WP support here and there. Why, because that's where the users are. That's where users have CHOSEN to be.
    The users are there because that's where the apps are. Apps are there because that's where the users are. The importance of apps is so high, and the market share of iOS and Android are so high, that it's like a cycle. The only way it'll change is if apps somehow aren't as important, or are generally available elsewhere. Then other things will start to be more of a factor.

    There has been either a monopoly or duopoly in the desktop market for the last 30 years. When it reinvented the smartphone and tablet, Apple was also able to gain enough mindshare and foot traffic in its stores to win back some meaningful market share for its laptops and desktops. Its finally possible to live a Microsoft free life should you wish to (or just use MS Office).
    Desktop Linux is still abysmal, as are Chromebooks. If you need "apps", it comes down to what type, and it's Windows or a Mac. There is no way currently that my gaming PC could be anything other than Windows. I use Linux on servers (sans the gui) all the time, and I really prefer it over Windows servers, but that's a completely different use case.

    How many here at BB were crying "monopoly" or "duopoly" when BB and Palm were the two big companies in smartphones? How unfair was it then? Who was crying for Microsoft and Symbian?

    Be honest: you only care about "fairness" when it is YOUR ox being gored. When it's someone else's ox, you are indifferent. And now there are 2 billion smartphone users indifferent to BB's plight.
    Despite this former monopoly/duopoly you mention, how many people were rocking BB or Palm devices back in the day? Most people had flip phones if they had a mobile phone at all. Not really comparable to today. Plus, isn't Symbian hugely popular (or at least was) overseas? In fact, it had a much bigger market share for smartphones than BB and Palm.
    Superfly_FR likes this.
    01-29-15 12:40 AM
  6. 3MIKE's Avatar
    Wake up gang, it's so quiet in here!
    01-29-15 07:01 AM
  7. xandermac's Avatar
    One of the things Apple does is allow mobile sites to be setup such that saving a shortcut to it on your app icon grid can present the mobile site in a way that appears to be an app, without the unnecessary browser chrome. That's a way forward. There should be a universal standard so that mobile sites can be setup like that and function as if they were apps on all mobile devices.
    This is exactly how it was for a year or two when the iPhone launched and the users hated it and wanted native apps. Job's fought it for as long as he could then finally gave in and created the app store. Now a million apps, and billions of dollars later, we're all happy and NEVER want to go back to that 2006 way of doing things. Well, everyone except BB users.

    Also, how would you monetize this webapp rubbish? Or make it integrate with hardware? or multitask and work with other webapps? Nah, far too many limitations which is why it was scrapped in the first place.

    The current ecosystems work. I go to one place to find my apps, I pay 1 source and therefore only give my billing info to that one source. I'm assured that the apps will work perfectly on my particular device and that they'll integrate with my hardware properly. WebApps cannot do any of that, they also cannot be curated for security or spyware, I'll have to subscribe (or some ****) to dozens of different sources which will increase my security exposure even more. It just doesn't work. It's been tried and it failed miserably, people demanded a lot more.
    Last edited by xandermac; 01-29-15 at 08:23 AM.
    01-29-15 08:09 AM
  8. ADGrant's Avatar
    The users are there because that's where the apps are. Apps are there because that's where the users are. The importance of apps is so high, and the market share of iOS and Android are so high, that it's like a cycle. The only way it'll change is if apps somehow aren't as important, or are generally available elsewhere. Then other things will start to be more of a factor.


    Desktop Linux is still abysmal, as are Chromebooks. If you need "apps", it comes down to what type, and it's Windows or a Mac. There is no way currently that my gaming PC could be anything other than Windows. I use Linux on servers (sans the gui) all the time, and I really prefer it over Windows servers, but that's a completely different use case.


    Despite this former monopoly/duopoly you mention, how many people were rocking BB or Palm devices back in the day? Most people had flip phones if they had a mobile phone at all. Not really comparable to today. Plus, isn't Symbian hugely popular (or at least was) overseas? In fact, it had a much bigger market share for smartphones than BB and Palm.
    I used both Palm and BB devices "in the day". Symbian is gone BTW. Chromebooks are a great test case for a web app based future. So far, not so good.
    01-29-15 08:31 AM
  9. ADGrant's Avatar
    The app market was pretty much crap back then. Many BB apps were java apps that ran on various platforms. There were only really a handful of useful apps that complimented the native features. The only apps that really mattered to me were Google Maps and Opera (because mobile browsing sucked). I'll give Apple credit, in that they made apps and the whole UX fantastic. Smartphones now have really matured and are everywhere. Something new may come along that is fantastic, but the likelihood of it being successful in spite of having no app ecosystem is pretty much zero.

    I wouldn't liken coding in HTML5 to using Crayons. You can do some awesome stuff with CSS alone. Couple that with doing most of the heavy lifting on the server end (cloud computing), and use web acceleration like Akamai, and you can get something that is just as responsive as a native app. Also, I'm not advocating the death of native apps, and I wouldn't expect them to go away anytime soon, but many apps don't really need to be apps at all.
    HTML5 is like using crayons compared to using native tools. Not that it matters. If app developers who release Android apps wanted to support BB they could publish to the Amazon web store. They don't seem to think it's worth the trouble.
    01-29-15 08:35 AM
  10. DaedalusIcarusHelios's Avatar
    This is exactly how it was for a year or two when the iPhone launched and the users hated it and wanted native apps. Job's fought it for as long as he could then finally gave in and created the app store. Now a million apps, and billions of dollars later, we're all happy and NEVER want to go back to that 2006 way of doing things. Well, everyone except BB users.

    Also, how would you monetize this webapp rubbish? Or make it integrate with hardware? or multitask and work with other webapps? Nah, far too many limitations which is why it was scrapped in the first place.

    The current ecosystems work. I go to one place to find my apps, I pay 1 source and therefore only give my billing info to that one source. I'm assured that the apps will work perfectly on my particular device and that they'll integrate with my hardware properly. WebApps cannot do any of that, they also cannot be curated for security or spyware, I'll have to subscribe (or some ****) to dozens of different sources which will increase my security exposure even more. It just doesn't work. It's been tried and it failed miserably, people demanded a lot more.
    It was before its time. Hasn't technology advanced in 9 years? It might not even be ready yet, but that's because there's no effort in doing so.

    For monetization, there are many options. It's not like everything on the web is free. PayPal exists, but surely solutions can be made that suit those that want a simple, single storefront (but let's have more than one that can do that). I've already talked about hardware integration. It may be poor now, but that doesn't mean it has to be. Proper hardware acceleration, support for sensors and other hardware - it's all possible. As for multitasking, if webapps act like apps, then it's up to the OS to properly implement multitasking. Limitations can be overcome, as long as there is effort to do so.

    As for security/spyware, having that storefront you covet would certainly cover that. Even now, sites can be certified by certain authorities for being malware-free, although honestly it's not very pervasive. As far as security exposure, having a single entry point into everything would seem no better than having multiple discreet accounts. Using PayPal for payment would give you one way to pay and limit your exposure. Regardless, there's no reason why a storefront for mobile webapps couldn't be built that is cross-platform that suits your needs. As long as standards are used across the board, you wouldn't have to worry about apps working on your particular device. That's the point.
    01-29-15 10:34 AM
  11. DaedalusIcarusHelios's Avatar
    I used both Palm and BB devices "in the day". Symbian is gone BTW. Chromebooks are a great test case for a web app based future. So far, not so good.
    My point was that not many people used them, even if many of us did, we were a minority compared to the general populace. Chromebooks can't do what we need now, but they are paving the way. Instead of using Office, you can use Office 365, or Google Docs, etc. So we are making progress, and it would work for many people. Just not yet for power users, business users, and PC gamers.
    01-29-15 10:39 AM
  12. DaedalusIcarusHelios's Avatar
    HTML5 is like using crayons compared to using native tools. Not that it matters. If app developers who release Android apps wanted to support BB they could publish to the Amazon web store. They don't seem to think it's worth the trouble.
    Tools can and will be improved over time. Your point on Android apps is exactly the problem - it can be done now, but they choose not to even if it takes little to no effort at all. My point is that something universal would remove the possibility of exclusion, because those apps would just work anywhere and be expected to.
    01-29-15 10:45 AM
  13. ADGrant's Avatar
    Tools can and will be improved over time. Your point on Android apps is exactly the problem - it can be done now, but they choose not to even if it takes little to no effort at all. My point is that something universal would remove the possibility of exclusion, because those apps would just work anywhere and be expected to.
    Which is one reason for App developers to stick with their current tools which given them much better control over their applications (where they run, who uses them) and much better protection from the theft of their IP.
    01-29-15 11:49 AM
  14. ADGrant's Avatar
    01-29-15 11:58 AM
  15. Elephant_Canyon's Avatar
    Even now, sites can be certified by certain authorities for being malware-free, although honestly it's not very pervasive.
    It's also mostly bull****, and sometimes does more harm than good.
    01-29-15 12:02 PM
  16. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    Also, how would you monetize this webapp rubbish? Or make it integrate with hardware? or multitask and work with other webapps? Nah, far too many limitations which is why it was scrapped in the first place.
    Shortcuts to mobile web sites and local HTML5 apps are two radically different approaches. You don't have to be HTML5 to offer a mobile viewpoint of a website. HTML5 offers capabilities (websockets, local DB storage, ...) that can make them either 100% offline, partially or totally connected, exactly as native ones do.
    The parrallel here isn't close to actual scheme. And you can even go headless with WebWorks apps ... so I'm not sure what you mean with "multitask and work with other webapps" ...
    01-29-15 12:12 PM
  17. DaedalusIcarusHelios's Avatar
    That's a perfect example how why we need some form of app/content neutrality. In that context it is easier to see the relationship with net neutrality. Whatever we want to call it, things shouldn't be arbitrarily blocked like that.
    01-29-15 12:32 PM
  18. ADGrant's Avatar
    That's a perfect example how why we need some form of app/content neutrality. In that context it is easier to see the relationship with net neutrality. Whatever we want to call it, things shouldn't be arbitrarily blocked like that.
    I disagree. If WhatsApp wants to only support Google Chrome, that is their decision.
    jmr1015 and TGR1 like this.
    01-29-15 12:36 PM
  19. DaedalusIcarusHelios's Avatar
    I always suspected they were worthless. In fact, when I see them they make me more suspicious of the site.
    01-29-15 12:40 PM
  20. FSeverino's Avatar
    I agree with most of the above.

    Lack of motivation is essentially what regulation can bring. Sometimes it is righteous, even virtuous.
    The P1 sample is an auto critic; I for one shouted after the FIA regulations; I wanted then the engine power to be unlimited, the noise louder, tire tracks and smoke, yada yada. I was wrong; the overall performance (and the show) has improved in final because they (teams) progressed under regulation.

    "Years" is tomorrow in IT time scale. See how long it took for HTML5 to finally get standardized, but ultimately, we're there and many will start investing in that direction now they can accurately believe that the standard will not slide sideways as it has been for any single HTML version since day one. Now that the fragmentation is almost gone (ok, there are still some kind of exceptions, but that's cosmetic level) I'd tend to believe we'll see a lot of "little greedy" apps flourishing all around. We're on day one and again, it's not an advocacy of HTML5; I use it as a sample in a domain where I believe I have some experience.

    re: BlackBerry has to invest
    On CB Blog, I even adventured a "What if J.C was speaking about a new framework" or the likes
    The interesting thing here is that JC said that BlackBerry is working on something that will make sure people don't need two devices. If it is some sort of runtime or software piece that makes apps universal or more accessible that would be huge.

    My only concern is that BlackBerry doesn't have the money to make something like this happen, and I think it's the right way to go. I really think that something like JC has in mind can open up mobile development. Right now I know, as a teacher, a lot of highschool kids that are 'making an app for iphone' but those skills aren't that transferable outside of ios and the general abilities of coding. If there was one universal standard these kids would have a lot more to learn, but would have a lot more to gain afterwords



    Posted via CB10
    Superfly_FR likes this.
    01-29-15 12:46 PM
  21. DaedalusIcarusHelios's Avatar
    I disagree. If WhatsApp wants to only support Google Chrome, that is their decision.
    That makes no sense to me. What difference does it make what web browser you are using. It's not like Safari is Lynx or anything. If anything, display a warning that there is no guarantee that it will work on non-supported browsers and to use at your own risk. Again, it comes down to properly using standards.
    Superfly_FR likes this.
    01-29-15 12:47 PM
  22. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    ^^^ Agree. What is your reaction today when you browse a website and get a "You must use xxx navigator to view this" ? You just go away (and BTW, it's really rare now, but how many websites required the usage of Internet Explorer 10 years ago ?)
    01-29-15 01:17 PM
  23. ADGrant's Avatar
    That makes no sense to me. What difference does it make what web browser you are using. It's not like Safari is Lynx or anything. If anything, display a warning that there is no guarantee that it will work on non-supported browsers and to use at your own risk. Again, it comes down to properly using standards.
    It can make a big difference. There are many web sites that either do not work on Internet Explorer or only work on Internet Explorer. Many that work on Chrome also work on Safari but not always. HTML as a cross platform magic bullet is a myth. One area of weakness in standards compliance is async messaging.

    Java is about the only time anything has lived up to the cross platform hype in my experience. Using it doesn't always result in a good user experience though.

    Ironically the example I posted is from WhatsApp, which is the cross platform messaging app owned by Facebook. It even has a BB10 client I believe.
    01-29-15 02:31 PM
  24. ADGrant's Avatar

    Right now I know, as a teacher, a lot of highschool kids that are 'making an app for iphone' but those skills aren't that transferable outside of ios and the general abilities of coding. If there was one universal standard these kids would have a lot more to learn, but would have a lot more to gain afterwords

    Posted via CB10
    Good for them. The tools are excellent and most of the skills they learn will be transferrable outside of iOS. If they want to become professional software developers, they will probably need to learn new languages and platforms later of course.
    01-29-15 02:52 PM
  25. app_Developer's Avatar
    Good for them. The tools are excellent and most of the skills they learn will be transferrable outside of iOS. If they want to become professional software developers, they will probably need to learn new languages and platforms later of course.
    Exactly. A " developer" who can't learn new languages and new APIs quickly is essentially useless today. Even a developer who can't learn new programming paradigms is also useless to most of us hiring today. This is part of learning how to be a developer now.

    If a kid learns swift or objc today, he can learn Go that much easier next month. That's part of learning.

    Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk
    ADGrant and techvisor like this.
    01-29-15 02:54 PM
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