03-07-15 08:35 PM
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  1. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    I won't comment yet on my opinion about the "App Neutrality" concept itself until I've had some time to drink some coffee and form a cogent response (I'm still wrapping my head around the idea that Chen is serious about it).

    But what I will say though, is that attaching it to the "Net Neutrality" movement was a very poor choice. If Chen is indeed serious about it, he should have pushed it as an idea completely isolated and separate from Net Neutrality. It's already been an agonizingly difficult task getting government to act on Net Neutrality, the last thing we need is something unnecessarily added to muddy the waters making it even more difficult.
    I agree. Attaching this to the Net Neutrality discussion seems misguided.
    techvisor likes this.
    01-22-15 10:12 AM
  2. annon91221's Avatar
    Unfortunately, the paragraph quoted has nothing to do with net neutrality. It has to do with market access and profit. If I want to sell my product, I'm going for the bigger markets = bigger returns. If I make a good enough return, I wouldn't even think about tiny markets.

    Posted via CB10
    Yeah but... in reality it is hard to believe that bigger market=bigger returns is what is at play here because Netflix, who ironically advocate net neutrality, have apps for devices such as Roku and Slingbox and all small and big smart T.V makers but they refuse to put their app in BBW even when every BB10 owner who wants the app has it already and we all know it works flawlessly.. Truth of the matter is that they just don't want to endorse BB10 and that is not good practice for business.. and we all know that in Europe monopolistic companies such as MS and Apple and even Google have paid the price for such practices..

    If the Ecosystem argument is true than what chance a startup in this business have when companies like MS and BlackBerry with billions in resources can't break through.. coincidentally, only tech companies that are willing to piggyback on Apple and Android have had a chance to thrive..
    Hmm.. I say that is really bad for innovation as a whole..

    Posted via CB10
    01-22-15 10:13 AM
  3. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    John Chen (as well as Blackberry/BB10) are being severely chastised across the internet for these remarks. Really bad PR misstep on Chen's part.
    Just glanced at my feed... man, he's getting raked across the coals.
    01-22-15 10:14 AM
  4. crackberry_geek's Avatar
    It's the act of a desperate man. Chen has squandered any possible chance of making BB a player:
    He closed down leaks thereby losing a large talented group of bata testers and losing a large body of free research.
    He thinks that by playing to enterprise he can resurrect former glory - no way because enterprise can no longer trust
    BB - would you trust a multi-billion dollar enterprise's communications to BB given their past 5-year history?
    He needs to be muzzled or fired - just another false hero chosen by a moronic Board of Directors (the folks who brought you Heins and kept the two co-clowns far too long).
    Exactly!

    Chen has blown it. Between this and the botched Samsung interaction (including the lies claiming they weren't talking... which are even today being proved untrue), no one will trust BlackBerry again.

    I give Chen kuddos for being a good bean counter. But he should have been CFO.

    CEO's require vision, strategy and communication skills. Chen has none of these.

    Posted via CB10
    agarwal.apar likes this.
    01-22-15 10:17 AM
  5. GoJaysGo's Avatar
    This is precisely why I do not use Apple computers. Sure Apple has a lot of apps but when I comes to actual useful programs I use for work they are down right useless.

    I see most people in this thread think this is a bad idea. But I am a potential apple user but I absolutely can not use their hardware because there ecosystem sucks compared to PC!
    "Actual Useful Programs" to some, clearly not you...

    Adobe Photoshop
    Adobe Lightroom
    Apple Garage Band
    Apple iPhoto
    Microsoft Office
    Apple Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro X
    Apple Keynote, Pages, Numbers
    Evernote
    01-22-15 10:37 AM
  6. notafanofyou's Avatar
    Looks like the anti BlackBerry / short crowd is blowing a gasket for very good reason. One app for everyone is great for innovation but not good for companies who can no longer innovate like apple. Samsung taking a stake in BlackBerry also seems to be making the anti BlackBerry / short crowd go crazy. Keep whining shorty cause it's funny.

    Posted via CB10
    01-22-15 10:41 AM
  7. trsbbs's Avatar
    Sounds like Chen is feeling the lack of apps pain.



    BlackBerry hates America!
    01-22-15 10:52 AM
  8. kyoiskyo's Avatar
    Where are those members that keep saying that Apps do not matter? LOL
    01-22-15 10:56 AM
  9. san4berry's Avatar
    I agree with him, right now it's a duopoly between apple and android, if you're not on those two platforms, your out of luck and crazy for using something else, it's not good for competition, the same reason why the US won't let carriers buy each other, it creates unfair competition. Why not have apps run on some sort of shared framework that each manufacturer bakes into their phones, so the app developers code on one system, and continue to distribute to each store the same way. It seems like witch hunt against blackberry, take for example Netflix. they say bb doesn't have the user base, but develops the app for less popular or equally popular devices.

    that said, blackberry does have to present itself as a stable company, these rumors of buy outs and take overs don't help their cause.
    01-22-15 10:59 AM
  10. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    Looks like the anti BlackBerry / short crowd is blowing a gasket for very good reason. One app for everyone is great for innovation but not good for companies who can no longer innovate like apple. Samsung taking a stake in BlackBerry also seems to be making the anti BlackBerry / short crowd go crazy. Keep whining shorty cause it's funny
    How do you conclude that negative responses to App Neutrality are "anti BlackBerry"? If the very same proposal were made by anybody of importance from Google, Apple, or Microsoft, the responses would have been the same. It's an ill conceived concept with zero substance in rationale.
    01-22-15 11:05 AM
  11. allisos's Avatar
    I think everyone is reacting a bit on the short sighted side.... I think we'll see a push for a html 5 type of "standard" programming.... or a standard base application programming language, that will port to every native language. Thus making all applications function on all devices.

    Even as a supply and demand argument makes sense, as to this is why you don't get support for a platform with limited users... It doesn't actually make sense to disable access in the cases where the BB browser was allowing some sights to work. I remember when HBOGO worked on the playbook browser, and other types of situations, that suddenly stopped working, when the core service providing company decided they wanted it stopped. As much as the "fair trade" argument is valid, so is the "biased playing field" argument, in that it is not a fair and open market to compete in. As a society we should put measures in place that allow for small businesses to compete against large businesses to ensure innovation is the goal, and not monopolization.

    I'm all for what Chen is broadcasting, as long as it leads to open competition for any company, and that no company is given preferential treatment based on prior performance. This concept should not be limited to the net either. I remember the days of working in a deli, and the soda company telling us that we had to pay more per bottle of soda, than shop-rite was selling theirs for. We actually bought it from shop rite, instead of directly from the manufacturer / distributor. Mass production is great for money idealism, but it is very poor for community.

    I'm disappointed in the cynicism of the BB community lately, and I hope it becomes more positive in the future.
    01-22-15 11:07 AM
  12. boi2012's Avatar
    I give Chen credit for what he has done to help stabalize and turn around Blackberry. Most of his decisions/choices have been great...until this. He sounds like a sore loser and as someone posted earlier, his little tantrum might open up a can of worms and new criticism. Blackberry doesn't need any more emphasis on the fact that it is struggling, is ignored and no one wants to build apps for its platform. Chen is only highlighting this more with desparation and sounding more like a frustrated defeatist. NOT a good look. He should have kept his mouth shut. It seems like he has a temper at times and in the heat of the moment, gets his foot stuck in his mouth. I would have thought he ran out of room in his mouth, with the other foot that still is stuck in there from his fight with T-mobile. But, I was wrong. His mouth just keeps growing.
    Shlooky and ADGrant like this.
    01-22-15 11:08 AM
  13. matt0135's Avatar
    So all the people thinking Chen is off his rocker don't believe that BB10 is a capable os deserving an app store filled to the brim?

    We're not talking about when blackberry collapsed, we're in the post recovery Era of blackberry as a business and that should be a key point.

    There are still millions of people using blackberries, and yet app developers choose to ignore us. All Chen is doing is being bold and directly addressing the issue head on.

    I understand why developers would have been hesitant at the launch of bb10, but I think nows the time to for them to realize the untapped potential in blackberry.

    If Chens comments bring ONE big name app over to bb10 then I say it's a job well done.

    Posted via CB10
    3MIKE likes this.
    01-22-15 11:24 AM
  14. MikeX74's Avatar
    I agree with him, right now it's a duopoly between apple and android, if you're not on those two platforms, your out of luck and crazy for using something else, it's not good for competition, the same reason why the US won't let carriers buy each other, it creates unfair competition. Why not have apps run on some sort of shared framework that each manufacturer bakes into their phones, so the app developers code on one system, and continue to distribute to each store the same way. It seems like witch hunt against blackberry, take for example Netflix. they say bb doesn't have the user base, but develops the app for less popular or equally popular devices.

    that said, blackberry does have to present itself as a stable company, these rumors of buy outs and take overs don't help their cause.
    What people have issue with is the idea that developers should be forced to build apps for all OS's via some government mandate. For example, Snapchat on Windows Phone(or whatever the new name is). The idea that Snapchat should have to make an app for that platform whether they want to or not is ludicrous. It's their time and money to invest as they see fit, so why should they be compelled to use it a certain way? It's the same with Netflix.
    jmr1015, 3MIKE and AlexXF like this.
    01-22-15 11:31 AM
  15. kyoiskyo's Avatar
    I think everyone is reacting a bit on the short sighted side.... I think we'll see a push for a html 5 type of "standard" programming.... or a standard base application programming language, that will port to every native language. Thus making all applications function on all devices.

    Even as a supply and demand argument makes sense, as to this is why you don't get support for a platform with limited users... It doesn't actually make sense to disable access in the cases where the BB browser was allowing some sights to work. I remember when HBOGO worked on the playbook browser, and other types of situations, that suddenly stopped working, when the core service providing company decided they wanted it stopped. As much as the "fair trade" argument is valid, so is the "biased playing field" argument, in that it is not a fair and open market to compete in. As a society we should put measures in place that allow for small businesses to compete against large businesses to ensure innovation is the goal, and not monopolization.

    I'm all for what Chen is broadcasting, as long as it leads to open competition for any company, and that no company is given preferential treatment based on prior performance. This concept should not be limited to the net either. I remember the days of working in a deli, and the soda company telling us that we had to pay more per bottle of soda, than shop-rite was selling theirs for. We actually bought it from shop rite, instead of directly from the manufacturer / distributor. Mass production is great for money idealism, but it is very poor for community.

    I'm disappointed in the cynicism of the BB community lately, and I hope it becomes more positive in the future.
    This is from a company that had the most closed wall garden of all and only recently "opened up" because they cannot compete with their offerings, and now they are accusing others to be against competition. I guess he cannot propped up profits with firing employees anymore and keeping up with lies of strong sales numbers.
    MikeX74, jmr1015 and Bsbudd like this.
    01-22-15 11:34 AM
  16. MikeX74's Avatar
    Looks like the anti BlackBerry / short crowd is blowing a gasket for very good reason. One app for everyone is great for innovation but not good for companies who can no longer innovate like apple. Samsung taking a stake in BlackBerry also seems to be making the anti BlackBerry / short crowd go crazy. Keep whining shorty cause it's funny.
    Posted via CB10
    Say what you will about Apple, but they managed to build an OS that devs want to build apps for, while BlackBerry has failed in that. Maybe Chen should be worrying about luring developers instead of Net Neutrality legislation.
    Last edited by MikeX74; 01-22-15 at 11:49 AM.
    Bsbudd likes this.
    01-22-15 11:37 AM
  17. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Yeah but... in reality it is hard to believe that bigger market=bigger returns is what is at play here because Netflix, who ironically advocate net neutrality, have apps for devices such as Roku and Slingbox and all small and big smart T.V makers but they refuse to put their app in BBW
    Do you not realize that Netflix is in the business of selling TV programming (including movies, of course)? Roku and Slingbox are TV devices, and putting Netflix in TVs only further makes sense - it's a TV!.

    Netflix was very straightforward: they look at marketshare when evaluating whether or not to bring Netflix to non-TV devices. BB10 has less than 0.5% marketshare, thus it is extremely unlikely that any new subscriptions a BB10 Netflix app would generate would be worth the expense of development, maintenance, and support of the platform. They also said that they re-evaluate these things every year, so should BB10's marketshare make significant growth, things could change.

    This isn't bias, it's business. You say "it's not good for business", but that's because you're only looking at BlackBerry's business, and ignoring Netflix's business. Once you look at it from Netflix's perspective, their choice makes a lot of sense.
    01-22-15 11:41 AM
  18. allisos's Avatar
    This is from a company that had the most closed wall garden of all and only recently "opened up" because they cannot compete with their offerings, and now they are accusing others to be against competition. I guess he cannot propped up profits with firing employees anymore and keeping up with lies of strong sales numbers.
    I believe their developer platform from the start was attempting to allow porting of apps from other platforms rather easily.
    Also, I'd like to see evidence of lying.
    01-22-15 11:45 AM
  19. kyoiskyo's Avatar
    This is precisely why I do not use Apple computers. Sure Apple has a lot of apps but when I comes to actual useful programs I use for work they are down right useless.

    I see most people in this thread think this is a bad idea. But I am a potential apple user but I absolutely can not use their hardware because there ecosystem sucks compared to PC!

    Posted via CB10
    You can run Windows on Apple computers but you cannot run OSX on Windows machine and software offering for macs is on par with Windows, I haven't came across a software that is not offered for both systems,so your argument about Apple hardware is totally bogus
    Shlooky and Bsbudd like this.
    01-22-15 11:45 AM
  20. MikeX74's Avatar
    Hmmm yes, very nice. The government should extend the law to force Microsoft to make Halo for the Playstation, Wii, and Colecovision.
    While we're at it, how about making Sony put the Uncharted series on XBOX Live.
    01-22-15 11:47 AM
  21. kyoiskyo's Avatar
    So all the people thinking Chen is off his rocker don't believe that BB10 is a capable os deserving an app store filled to the brim?

    We're not talking about when blackberry collapsed, we're in the post recovery Era of blackberry as a business and that should be a key point.

    There are still millions of people using blackberries, and yet app developers choose to ignore us. All Chen is doing is being bold and directly addressing the issue head on.

    I understand why developers would have been hesitant at the launch of bb10, but I think nows the time to for them to realize the untapped potential in blackberry.

    If Chens comments bring ONE big name app over to bb10 then I say it's a job well done.

    Posted via CB10
    Aren't most users here keep saying that Apps don't matter because BB are tools? Maybe developers read this forum
    01-22-15 11:51 AM
  22. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    The most significant flaw in Chen's "App Neutrality" as he equates it with Net Neutrality, is that he has it completely backwards.

    With Net Neutrality, ISPs can't throttle/inhibit traffic or data speeds based on content or content-provider. In other words, ISPs can't capitalize on their ability to affect other services not related to the ISPs themselves. ie.. Comcast can't give favorable service to Netflix streaming while at the same time throttling Hulu/Amazon streaming because they aren't ponying up ransom cash. What Net Neutrality does not require, is that all ISPs have to offer all the same services and/or products as all the other ISPs, nor do they have to share their products with the other ISPs.

    What Chen failed to recognize in his App Neutrality concept, is that in this scenario, the Mobile Platforms now hold the same role that the ISPs do in the Net Neutrality scenario. If there were to be any kind of App Neutrality, all it would require is that if BBRY developed an app for a competing platform, then the competing platform couldn't intentionally inhibit the app's performance, ability to function, or even the ability to be installed on their devices. ie.. Android/iOS could not inherently force products developed by BBRY (like BBM) to run poorly on their devices, or block it from being installed by their users. And since Chen has equated it to Net Neutrality, then just like ISP's are not required to share their services and products with other ISP's, Platforms would not be required to share their products with competing Platforms.

    Furthermore, the very concept that all apps and services should be required to be available to every platform would dictate that every app and service would have to be declared Standards Essential. Which would basically declare that there's no such thing as Intellectual Property when developing apps and services. Yeah... like that's ever gonna happen.
    01-22-15 11:52 AM
  23. kyoiskyo's Avatar
    While we're at it, how about making Sony put the Uncharted series on XBOX Live.
    or Burger King sells McDonald's fries
    01-22-15 11:53 AM
  24. MikeX74's Avatar
    Yeah but... in reality it is hard to believe that bigger market=bigger returns is what is at play here because Netflix, who ironically advocate net neutrality, have apps for devices such as Roku and Slingbox and all small and big smart T.V makers but they refuse to put their app in BBW even when every BB10 owner who wants the app has it already and we all know it works flawlessly.. Truth of the matter is that they just don't want to endorse BB10 and that is not good practice for business.. and we all know that in Europe monopolistic companies such as MS and Apple and even Google have paid the price for such practices..

    If the Ecosystem argument is true than what chance a startup in this business have when companies like MS and BlackBerry with billions in resources can't break through.. coincidentally, only tech companies that are willing to piggyback on Apple and Android have had a chance to thrive..
    Hmm.. I say that is really bad for innovation as a whole..

    Posted via CB10
    Bigger market share doesn't always equal bigger returns. For example, iOS has smaller marketshare than Android, but(I'm guessing) nine times out of ten, an app hits iOS before Android. Monument Valley, Instagram, and Vine are just a few examples.
    3MIKE likes this.
    01-22-15 11:54 AM
  25. Cynycl's Avatar
    Well at least Chen is honest in acknowledging that no one is interested in developing for Blackberry. Better than all the "coming soon" rhetoric of his predecessor
    Last edited by Cynycl; 01-22-15 at 12:05 PM.
    Bsbudd and devin266 like this.
    01-22-15 11:54 AM
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