03-07-15 08:35 PM
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  1. Cynycl's Avatar
    The use of the back of the bus analogy is downright insulting.

    Tapatalked from my iPhone 6+ primary line, my iPad Air 4G, my backup Nexus 5 or my work issued Xperia Z3C.
    Agreed.

    What I find more offensive is the asinine suggestion that Blackberry and their plastic inanimate cell phones are being discriminated against and suffering the indignity of Rosa Parks and her race. This just makes me sick.

    People throwing out the discrimination card for sympathy when the fact is its their actions or choices are responsible for their perceived wrongdoing makes my blood boil. All these folks should truly have to experience discrimination so they don't get confused the next time.

    The fact that your fat arse takes up two airline seats and they charge you for both is not discrimination. You think you're Paris Hilton and want to bring your little rat dog everywhere you go and they don't allow you into a restaurant where normal people are eating, you are not being discriminated against. You chose to tattoo your face or plug it full of holes and piercings and no one hires you for a job where you are required to work directly with the public, once again not discrimination. You have less skills and experience than the person hired for the job you applied for but you are a visible minority, guess what, still not discrimination.

    You don't have something other people have and aren't willing to do what they had to in order to get it......you guessed it.

    People blaming society for their life choices and not liking the consequences of their actions then claiming discrimination is offensive.

    End rant
    01-24-15 08:12 AM
  2. lnichols's Avatar
    Nobody said Apple (or any other company) should open up (their API's) for free. If BlackBerry thinks it is worth their money to create an iMessage app for bb10 then they should be able to (for the right price).

    I'm just not a fan of protectionism. BlackBerry hasn't behaved/isn't behaving any better then the others in this respect. How long did they sat on BBM? Too long because now it is dead.

    Cannot choose between glas or plastic keyboard
    Nobody gave a flying F to protectionism here when the Curve 83xx was outselling the iPhone. No one wanted BlackBerry to share BIS or BES with the rest of the world and other platforms. BlackBerry toyed with it with Nokia and backed out. Now that the tables have turned and BlackBerry put itself in the position they are in then things are unfair, protectionism, blah, blah, blah.....

    BlackBerry needs to compete in the market of today on their own. You want to know how to take care of the Google Play issue, you make an interpreter in the Android runtime on BB10 that takes Google Play requests and frameworks to a BlackBerry hosted/sponsored equivalent. API's are out there, it can be reverse engineered, it wouldn't be easy and would require a dedicated group of Engineers to constantly analyze and re-engineer with every Android release. The issue is BlackBerry axed off much of their talent and so they would rather whine and complain.

    The promise of the Android runtime in the original PlayBook killed off app development for that device because devs decided to wait for because BlackBerry said it would be able to run Android apps so devs waited. BlackBerry left out the part that it would take a year to get to market and would suck when it arrived and wouldn't run many apps. Now that they have pigeon holed themselves into supporting Android, they have to put a ton of effort into making the runtime support 100% of the apps, no matter what that implies in terms of resources, partnering agreements, etc. The only other way for BB10 to succeed is for someone like Samsung to buy them and say it is their OS for all future devices and devs would jump on instantly because Samsung has the muscle and name brand to pull it off.

    Posted via CB10
    01-24-15 08:22 AM
  3. donnation's Avatar
    Who's apologizing for Chen here? I'm not, I agree with him. It's not an apology. Had those apps been available for BlackBerry, BlackBerry would have done better in this market hands down. People want their apps and if those apps are not available on a particular platform, they will go to the platform where those particular apps are available. That's why BlackBerry had no choice but to install androids run time to work on BlackBerry. They needed those "in the crowd apps" as I call it or they would have been out of the game long ago.

    Posted via CB10
    Its easy to say that, "BB10 hasn't sold well because of apps." That's more of an excuse. There are other factors that had way more influence on it not selling and apps is only a small part of it. There weren't millions of returns of BB phones because people bought them and then returned them becuase they didn't have apps. Most people aren't aware that BB10 doesn't have apps because they've never tried the OS to begin with. Poor sales because of lack of apps is a little bit of a way to give BB a pass imo. A lot of it has to do with self inflicted poor brand perecption, being late to the market, and really bad marketing.
    crackberry_geek likes this.
    01-24-15 08:22 AM
  4. z10Jobe's Avatar
    Perspective 101: Although not perfect, my Z30 is a quality communication device that does almost everything I want or need it to do. It's not a lifestyle, not a political statement, not a religion, and not my best (or only) friend. Take a deep breath, people!
    Well there was certainly no BS in that post. Great post btw.

    Posted via CB10
    01-24-15 08:34 AM
  5. Cozz4ever's Avatar
    1) The IDE is Xcode, not Eclipse which is the worst IDE I have ever had the misfortune to use.

    2) The profiling tools are excellent. Better than any other platform I have used.

    3) The amount of iOS training material and guidance available from Apple and third parties is enormous and of high quality.

    4) Every possible question seems to have been answered on Stack Exchange.

    5) Did I mention not having to use Eclipse.

    6) The build process and simulator startup are fast on a modern Mac and usable on an old one.

    7) The variations in screen aspect ratio between devices are less dramatic,

    8) Did I tell you how much I hate Eclipse.

    One thing I do have to complement BB on is their choice of Qt & C++. Much better for mobile app development that either Java (Android) or HTML/CSS?Javascript (WebOS, Firefox)
    Lol I feel you on the Eclipse argument. Sometimes I won't even bother with android. But the rest is about available information out there and not the actual process of coding. I don't know but I've felt going to BB for testing new code before heading to Xcode in the past. Apple does have excellent information out there and very well organized. But if someone wanted to play with coding for the first time, I'd tell him go to blackberry for a feel for things and work from there.

    Posted via CB10
    01-24-15 08:45 AM
  6. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    Lol I feel you on the Eclipse argument. Sometimes I won't even bother with android.
    Not a fan of Eclipse myself. Thankfully Google finally released their Android IDE which is a huge improvement.
    01-24-15 08:52 AM
  7. ADGrant's Avatar
    Lol I feel you on the Eclipse argument. Sometimes I won't even bother with android. But the rest is about available information out there and not the actual process of coding. I don't know but I've felt going to BB for testing new code before heading to Xcode in the past. Apple does have excellent information out there and very well organized. But if someone wanted to play with coding for the first time, I'd tell him go to blackberry for a feel for things and work from there.

    Posted via CB10
    I think Apple has some pretty good tools for first time coders too though. The new Swift language with the Playgrounds is quite slick. When I was a first time coder it was all about Basic and we used compact cassette tape for storage.
    01-24-15 08:57 AM
  8. menshawy's Avatar
    It's a fair thing to call for, customer should choose their desired platform without being held back by app choice because apps are business and that should not affect customer's choice.

    You people are attacking Chen because he said that? But you wouldn't have attacked Apple or Google if they said exactly the same thing. I know that they would not because their app situation is good. But the idea is there

    Posted via CB10
    01-24-15 09:14 AM
  9. early2bed's Avatar
    By essentially birthing the idea of app neutrality, John Chen has unintentionally shone a big light on Blackberry saying "Apps are important. We don't have some important ones and we need them."

    It also highlights the fact that he isn't a smartphone guy. If you have been using and following smartphones since they were invented like many of us have then you probably know a lot more about smartphones than he does. For example, he thinks that you innovate by asking your existing users what they want and give it to them a year later calling it a "Classic." Nice for some existing customers. Irrelevant to content creators.

    Now, he thinks that apps are commodities that can and should simply be made available to all smartphones. To him they are simply a means to sell more phones - something for the user to do. It's like thinking that making a DVD player means you are in the movie business. I don't think he understands that the content is king these days. In his world, people buy smartphones because they want to make calls, read emails, and message. Nowadays, people buy smartphones as a vehicle to access social media, view content, and use whatever apps are out there to do whatever.

    Blackberry has not innovated enough to making it a compelling platform for developers to create unique new user experiences. By focusing on the existing user base and, specifically, the hardware keyboard, they have held on to a shrinking core of users that simply doesn't pass the basic cost/benefit analysis.
    Last edited by early2bed; 01-24-15 at 09:33 AM.
    01-24-15 09:21 AM
  10. Carrtman's Avatar
    I'm just using fonware here they've asked for opening bb10 to macros so they could port shortcutme over from os 7 till today it hasn't happened.

    Developers are independ people who can choose whatever platform they like. If Chen would put himself into their choose the guy would develop apps for IOS and android too because that's a combined 90 % marketshare in other words out of 10 people you are reaching 9. If you go to windows or bb10 you might have 1 customer and would he or she be willing to pay 8 times the price to make the development worthwhile? No
    01-24-15 09:25 AM
  11. anon3923428's Avatar
    If we're going to use a "back of the bus" analogy... Yes, BlackBerry is riding in the back of the bus. But no one forced them to. They were late to get on, and all the good seats are taken.

    BB10 was 5 years late to the modern OS war. iPhone and Android had half a decade head start building their ecosystem. BlackBerry was slow to react to the changing face of mobile. Who's fault is that? Maybe if BB10 came out in 2008 or 2009, developers would have probably taken a more serious look at making apps for BlackBerry. But by 2013? Developers could already sell to a huge portion of the smartphone market by developing for just two platforms. Why take on the extra costs and risks to develop for BB10? To be nice?
    That broken record is done and over with. Look at BB10 now.... the past is what it is. It's the new BlackBerry and no one will cut them a break. At least no one in the USA

    Posted via CB10
    01-24-15 09:48 AM
  12. anon3923428's Avatar
    Agreed.

    What I find more offensive is the asinine suggestion that Blackberry and their plastic inanimate cell phones are being discriminated against and suffering the indignity of Rosa Parks and her race. This just makes me sick.

    People throwing out the discrimination card for sympathy when the fact is its their actions or choices are responsible for their perceived wrongdoing makes my blood boil. All these folks should truly have to experience discrimination so they don't get confused the next time.

    The fact that your fat arse takes up two airline seats and they charge you for both is not discrimination. You think you're Paris Hilton and want to bring your little rat dog everywhere you go and they don't allow you into a restaurant where normal people are eating, you are not being discriminated against. You chose to tattoo your face or plug it full of holes and piercings and no one hires you for a job where you are required to work directly with the public, once again not discrimination. You have less skills and experience than the person hired for the job you applied for but you are a visible minority, guess what, still not discrimination.

    You don't have something other people have and aren't willing to do what they had to in order to get it......you guessed it.

    People blaming society for their life choices and not liking the consequences of their actions then claiming discrimination is offensive.

    End rant
    Am I missing something here because I haven't seen any mention of discrimination from BlackBerry or Chen for that matter. It's not discrimination, it's down right greed and lies. That's the issue here

    Posted via CB10
    01-24-15 09:50 AM
  13. early2bed's Avatar
    It's not discrimination, it's down right greed and lies. That's the issue here
    All of the big smartphone players are saying "We have our own platform that we own and control (for whatever reason)." Blackberry on the other hand is saying: 1) You can use Android apps on our platform; 2) Developer should be forced to support our platform.

    You're right. It's about greed and lies.
    mornhavon likes this.
    01-24-15 10:03 AM
  14. anon3923428's Avatar
    Its easy to say that, "BB10 hasn't sold well because of apps." That's more of an excuse. There are other factors that had way more influence on it not selling and apps is only a small part of it. There weren't millions of returns of BB phones because people bought them and then returned them becuase they didn't have apps. Most people aren't aware that BB10 doesn't have apps because they've never tried the OS to begin with. Poor sales because of lack of apps is a little bit of a way to give BB a pass imo. A lot of it has to do with self inflicted poor brand perecption, being late to the market, and really bad marketing.
    You honestly believe that.... I asked my own kids that have iPhones and when to android and the number one reason for them not using a BlackBerry (Which they liked) was because it didn't have the apps that they use to communicate with their friend (snap chat, instagram). Now I'm talking as little as three years to present. The youth is the way of the future. If the youth don't like the device and it's because apps, how do you expect the masses to buy BlackBerry? Ask anyone you know why they don't buy a BlackBerry and see what answers you get. "No apps, going out of business, went out of business, it's not what my friends use". That's what I've gotten here in NY. I know 5 people that use BlackBerry. No one else does. Media like cnet and verge and even Wallstreet bash BlackBerry. It's a know fact but look at the reviews of the people that own the phones. 4.5 out of 5 stars at the carrier review sites and cnets own customer review site. But yet, they bash the phone regardless. Why is that I ask? As a test, I went to T-Mobile and Verizon and asked question in regards to BlackBerry. You do not even want to know what the sales people told me about the Z30. So as far as people testing out bb10, they never will because the people that they rely on for knowledge themselves are saying stay clear of BlackBerry. That's what the problem here is.

    On another note, I've fought this battle with many. I've shown what BlackBerry can do and when asked, how about those apps, I show them the apps that I can get from snap and amazon. Then the question is, if that's the case, why not get android then? Go figure.... it it somewhat makes sense. John Chen isn't saying that these companies should make apps per say but allow BlackBerry to install those apps per say without the restrictions imposed on BlackBerry. Take YouTube in this example, why can't I run YouTube on bb10 even though BlackBerry is running the android runtime? Because Google will not allow it. That's the reason why and that is a fact.

    Posted via CB10
    01-24-15 10:03 AM
  15. jmo712's Avatar
    My main issue with some of these threads is that alot of responses are negative instead of being "hopeful" about BB's future..which leads me to believe that most negative comments are from "non-blackberry users". If that true, why the hell are any of you non-blackberry users even on this app/site, in these forums. Why are you not on the Android/iPhone forums where you can't continue to bash BB?!? Oh, I forgot, jerks like other people to know their jerks, so they have to talk crap behind a screen. Get a life, get a new phone or shut up and be happy with the phone that works for you. The crackberry forums are supposed to be for loyal BB users to get helpful info about the company and phones that they love.

    Crackberry for life! In the future most of us might have Android OS on our phones...but I bet all us loyal users will still have that BB across the top of our phones regardless of the OS!

    Posted on my New BlackBerry Classic
    01-24-15 10:06 AM
  16. MmmHmm's Avatar
    Am I missing something here because I haven't seen any mention of discrimination from BlackBerry or Chen for that matter. It's not discrimination, it's down right greed and lies. That's the issue here

    Posted via CB10
    You must not have read John Chen's blog/letter to lawmakers. Here is a direct quote from Chen:

    "Unfortunately, not all content and applications providers have embraced openness and neutrality. Unlike BlackBerry, which allows iPhone users to download and use our BBM service, Apple does not allow BlackBerry or Android users to download Apples iMessage messaging service. Netflix, which has forcefully advocated for carrier neutrality, has discriminated against BlackBerry customers by refusing to make its streaming movie service available to them. Many other applications providers similarly offer service only to iPhone and Android users. This dynamic has created a two-tiered wireless broadband ecosystem, in which iPhone and Android users are able to access far more content and applications than customers using devices running other operating systems. These are precisely the sort of discriminatory practices that neutrality advocates have criticized at the carrier level.

    Therefore, neutrality must be mandated at the application and content layer if we truly want a free, open and non-discriminatory internet. All wireless broadband customers must have the ability to access any lawful applications and content they choose, and applications/content providers must be prohibited from discriminating based on the customers mobile operating system."
    jmr1015 and Cynycl like this.
    01-24-15 10:07 AM
  17. anon3923428's Avatar
    Nobody gave a flying F to protectionism here when the Curve 83xx was outselling the iPhone. No one wanted BlackBerry to share BIS or BES with the rest of the world and other platforms. BlackBerry toyed with it with Nokia and backed out. Now that the tables have turned and BlackBerry put itself in the position they are in then things are unfair, protectionism, blah, blah, blah.....

    BlackBerry needs to compete in the market of today on their own. You want to know how to take care of the Google Play issue, you make an interpreter in the Android runtime on BB10 that takes Google Play requests and frameworks to a BlackBerry hosted/sponsored equivalent. API's are out there, it can be reverse engineered, it wouldn't be easy and would require a dedicated group of Engineers to constantly analyze and re-engineer with every Android release. The issue is BlackBerry axed off much of their talent and so they would rather whine and complain.

    The promise of the Android runtime in the original PlayBook killed off app development for that device because devs decided to wait for because BlackBerry said it would be able to run Android apps so devs waited. BlackBerry left out the part that it would take a year to get to market and would suck when it arrived and wouldn't run many apps. Now that they have pigeon holed themselves into supporting Android, they have to put a ton of effort into making the runtime support 100% of the apps, no matter what that implies in terms of resources, partnering agreements, etc. The only other way for BB10 to succeed is for someone like Samsung to buy them and say it is their OS for all future devices and devs would jump on instantly because Samsung has the muscle and name brand to pull it off.

    Posted via CB10
    It's isn't fair when companies like Google won't allow BlackBerry or Amazon to use the YouTube app on BlackBerry or Amazon tablets.... that's just plain fowl play so let's not twist this. John Chen is right when he says that companies like Google monopolize the market forcing people to buy their ecosystem in order to enjoy said product. If it's available for Android, available for Apple then is should be available for all. That's the point. It's not about poor me, it's another format of control that these people have. The best part is when Google a couple of years ago was complaining about the same thing with apple but no one bitched then. Now BlackBerry is saying the same thing and ooooh how can Chen say such a thing. It's just another way of bashing BlackBerry as far as I and many others are concerned

    Posted via CB10
    3MIKE and menshawy like this.
    01-24-15 10:08 AM
  18. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    It's a fair thing to call for, customer should choose their desired platform without being held back by app choice because apps are business and that should not affect customer's choice.

    You people are attacking Chen because he said that? But you wouldn't have attacked Apple or Google if they said exactly the same thing. I know that they would not because their app situation is good. But the idea is there

    Posted via CB10
    Yes, the press would have had a field day with that had, say, a Google exec said this.

    C'mon.
    01-24-15 10:09 AM
  19. pantlesspenguin's Avatar
    Who's apologizing for Chen here? I'm not, I agree with him. It's not an apology.
    Apologist - a person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial.

    donnation, jmr1015 and avt123 like this.
    01-24-15 10:09 AM
  20. early2bed's Avatar
    Take YouTube in this example, why can't I run YouTube on bb10 even though BlackBerry is running the android runtime? Because Google will not allow it. That's the reason why and that is a fact.
    And when the next YouTube update crashes on BB10 who will the users complain to? Blackberry? Why would you complain to Blackberry? How would you complain to Blackberry? What would a Blackberry support rep say you should do about the YouTube app?

    App developers live and die by their user experience. "The app stopped working. Then a few weeks later it started working. Then a month later it stopped working again so I never use it anymore." It's a terrible user experience so it's no wonder that app developers don't want users on unsupported platforms. You certainly don't want to give a sales rep the opportunity to say "Sure, you can use Neflix. Just looky here at me using it on my phone."
    01-24-15 10:12 AM
  21. anon3923428's Avatar
    All of the big smartphone players are saying "We have our own platform that we own and control (for whatever reason)." Blackberry on the other hand is saying: 1) You can use Android apps on our platform; 2) Developer should be forced to support our platform.

    You're right. It's about greed and lies.
    No, developers such as Google that block you tube app from playing on any device that isn't approved by Google even though they are running android run time. That's the argument Chen is referring to. Amazon who runs android also can't use the YouTube app because they aren't using Google play store. That's just unfair and it's control.... that's what Chen is saying needs to stop.

    Posted via CB10
    MobileMadness002 likes this.
    01-24-15 10:13 AM
  22. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    It's isn't fair when companies like Google won't allow BlackBerry or Amazon to use the YouTube app on BlackBerry or Amazon tablets.... that's just plain fowl play so let's not twist this. John Chen is right when he says that companies like Google monopolize the market forcing people to buy their ecosystem in order to enjoy said product. If it's available for Android, available for Apple then is should be available for all. That's the point. It's not about poor me, it's another format of control that these people have. The best part is when Google a couple of years ago was complaining about the same thing with apple but no one bitched then. Now BlackBerry is saying the same thing and ooooh how can Chen say such a thing. It's just another way of bashing BlackBerry as far as I and many others are concerned

    Posted via CB10
    Google complained? Don't recall that. I'm happy to be corrected.

    Android users... now they whined up a storm. It was exceedingly similar to what is said here now at times.

    I don't recall anyone suggesting or supporting forcible app development.
    01-24-15 10:13 AM
  23. anon3923428's Avatar

    And when the next YouTube update crashes on BB10 who will the users complain to? Blackberry? Why would you complain to Blackberry? How would you complain to Blackberry? What would a Blackberry support rep say you should do about the YouTube app?

    App developers live and die by their user experience. "The app stopped working. Then a few weeks later it started working. Then a month later it stopped working again so I never use it anymore." It's a terrible user experience so it's no wonder that app developers don't want users on unsupported platforms.
    Let me tell you that every app that I've downloaded from android works just fine on my bb10 with no issues what so ever so I'm not sure what you mean when it crashes. The only apps that crash for me are the ones that are coded by Google to only play on Google services. That is control. That's what Chen is referring to.

    Posted via CB10
    01-24-15 10:15 AM
  24. anon3923428's Avatar
    Google complained? Don't recall that. I'm happy to be corrected.

    Android users... now they whined up a storm. It was exceedingly similar to what is said here now at times.

    I don't recall anyone suggesting or supporting forcible app development.
    A couple of years ago, Google complained to the masses of one manufacturer who was hogging all the apps and forcing everyone to that ecosystem. They said it on live TV when introducing one of their OSs.

    Chen took it a step further by addressing congress or whom ever in the government about it

    Posted via CB10
    01-24-15 10:17 AM
  25. ADGrant's Avatar
    It's a fair thing to call for, customer should choose their desired platform without being held back by app choice because apps are business and that should not affect customer's choice.

    You people are attacking Chen because he said that? But you wouldn't have attacked Apple or Google if they said exactly the same thing. I know that they would not because their app situation is good. But the idea is there

    Posted via CB10
    Apple was in a similar position to BB in the desktop market. when Steve Jobs took back control. He NEVER asked the US government to force other companies to support Apple.
    01-24-15 10:20 AM
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