03-07-15 08:35 PM
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  1. TheBirdDog's Avatar
    There is one huge fallacy in your analogy.

    An Application Store is part of the product. It's not like a brick and mortar retail location. An application store is a feature of the platform, it is part and parcel of the entire solution.

    In no way does it make sense to obligate Apple essentially to give away access to its store. If you want access to it, but a corresponding Apple product. Boom. You get access to the store.

    This is how it works. BlackBerry does business this same way. If I drove to Waterloo, and asked for unlimited access to BBRY's property, I'd be laughed out of the building and cited for drunken behavior.

    This is why astute folks (not me, because I was all for it) pointed out the potential drawbacks of the Runtime way back when: tying into someone else's app environment could create issues down the line. And it did, hence the call for app neutrality.
    I understand that an app store in some way is an actual part of a product. All phones have some version of this. However, not all stores are included in this. I can access Google Play from my computer. In the exact same way, I can access iTunes on computer. I don't own a Chromebook or a Macbook. In that same way, THESE content providers should be accessible on all capable platforms. There only reason that they are not is because of the anti-competitive behavior of those companies.

    The letter is not asking independent app developers to make everything available cross-platform. There is no use for someone on an Xperia to use "Hub++" and therefore still a need for native app stores in the same way. But the content that is not device-specific and sold in those stores, should not be withheld from elsewhere just because they can.

    It's amazing to me how many people are so against the concept. Not only is it a good thing for BlackBerry (and this is a dedicated forum, last I checked), it's just a good thing in general. For everyone.

    Posted via my BlackBerry Passport
    spike12 likes this.
    01-23-15 04:15 PM
  2. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    I understand that an app store in some way is an actual part of a product. All phones have some version of this. However, not all stores are included in this. I can access Google Play from my computer. In the exact same way, I can access iTunes on computer. I don't own a Chromebook or a Macbook. In that same way, THESE content providers should be accessible on all capable platforms. There only reason that they are not is because of the anti-competitive behavior of those companies.

    The letter is not asking independent app developers to make everything available cross-platform. There is no use for someone on an Xperia to use "Hub++" and therefore still a need for native app stores in the same way. But the content that is not device-specific and sold in those stores, should not be withheld from elsewhere just because they can.

    It's amazing to me how many people are so against the concept. Not only is it a good thing for BlackBerry (and this is a dedicated forum, last I checked), it's just a good thing in general. For everyone.

    Posted via my BlackBerry Passport
    We're all reading into this differently and that's the issue with what Chen is saying. If it were more clear cut and if it could not be twisted to mean something else it would be a good letter.

    Posted via CB10
    3MIKE likes this.
    01-23-15 04:18 PM
  3. TheBirdDog's Avatar
    I live in Canada so our ideas on what is right and wrong are radically different. You shouldn't be able to refuse service unless it's absolutely outrageous. Like that woman that was asked to make a anti gay cake.

    Posted via CB10
    This must have something to do with it... I seem to understand my fellow Canadians far more often.

    Posted via my BlackBerry Passport
    SeeBeeEss and 3MIKE like this.
    01-23-15 04:19 PM
  4. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    Some of these points are fine, however, why shouldn't Netflix be on the Amazon app store?
    It is on the Amazon app store. And nobody's insinuating that it shouldn't be.

    Why shouldn't we have access to the Google Play Store itself? It's just a store afterall, even if not a physical one. It's like saying that you won't let certain patrons into your store based on some other sort of discrimination. I am not 100 percent sure of this because I didn't personally try to troubleshoot it for him, but my brother was unable to get the Amazon App store on his Android device, likely because it was somehow blocked by Google. Perhaps there is a workaround that he can use but he shouldn't have to. Just like BlackBerry shouldn't have to use workarounds to access content.
    Google in no way blocks the Amazon app store from being installed on Android devices. And there's no trick to installing it. You just download it from Amazon, and install it on any Android device. If your brother can't install it on his Android device, then it's likely because he has the 'Allow Unknown Sources' security setting turned off which allows/prevents installing apps from outside the Play store. As to why shouldn't everybody have access to the Google Play store itself... That's simply because the Play Store is Google's proprietary service, and they choose to only allow devices that conform to the OHA standards and requirements to promote standards compliance with OHA certified devices. Goggle and App Developers typically don't want to field support tickets for platforms their apps weren't designed for. You may as well ask why other devices don't have access to the relevant app stores maintained by BB, Microsoft, and Apple.

    The developers really don't have to do anything if this mandate goes through. It's targeting the app 'providers' not the developers. Google and Apple are the ones limiting the distribution of their content, not the developers. Also, there is no reason that apps based on HTML5 would not be available to everyone. This is where things were always going and someone had to throw the first stone. I respect BlackBerry's man in charge for bringing more attention to it.
    I think you need to go back and read exactly what this thread is talking about, and the letter Chen wrote. You're grossly misinterpreting the entire subject.
    01-23-15 04:25 PM
  5. Cynycl's Avatar
    I live in Canada so our ideas on what is right and wrong are radically different. You shouldn't be able to refuse service unless it's absolutely outrageous. Like that woman that was asked to make a anti gay cake.

    Posted via CB10
    Well that's not accurate because I live in Canada as well.

    So discrimination, if that's what it should be called, is only good one way. Why is it any more wrong to refuse the first cake when you don't agree with someone else's life choice, based on your beliefs. Fact is its your product, your business and you, and you alone, should choose who the hell you wish to bake for. You want to bake cakes solely for gay people .... That should be your right.

    Government/public services should be open to all comers. Private enterprise should be governed by the owner to do as they choose.

    Just because you don't have something someone else has or can't join somewhere that doesn't want you, it is not discriminatory. If Netflix wants you to have an app or not, its their business. If you want the app, go get it the way everyone else did. You want to use on the browser, then use the browser that it works with.

    That is if the store/business owner is agreeable to selling your whinny self entitled arse a device that it works with, of course. Not you personally but you get the jist.

    You bought a device it doesn't work with.......wait for it........tuff tatties. Your poor choice does not equate to discrimination. Its not a civil rights issue. Its your own damn fault buttercup. Live and learn. Better luck next time. Thanks for playing.
    Last edited by Cynycl; 01-23-15 at 05:44 PM.
    Bsbudd likes this.
    01-23-15 04:28 PM
  6. TheBirdDog's Avatar
    We're all reading into this differently and that's the issue with what Chen is saying. If it were more clear cut and if it could not be twisted the mean else it would be a good letter.

    Posted via CB10
    Fair enough.

    I'm just glad that Chen started the conversation. I mean, the real conversation (let's not kid ourselves Crackberry, this is all just a sidenote). The concept of "Net Neutrality" is not so clear and, by bringing it up at all, Chen has furthered the discussion.

    I do find it impressive how many people will turn on him in a heartbeat, especially out of people here. Chen has done wonders for the company and arguably is the only reason they still exist. This is because he knows what he is doing and however many of you think you might be smarter than him, I assure you, you aren't. I assume most of us are all supporters and fans of BlackBerry? I smell mutiny and it stinks!!!

    Posted via my BlackBerry Passport
    01-23-15 04:28 PM
  7. ADGrant's Avatar
    Fair enough.

    I'm just glad that Chen started the conversation. I mean, the real conversation (let's not kid ourselves Crackberry, this is all just a sidenote). The concept of "Net Neutrality" is not so clear and, by bringing it up at all, Chen has furthered the discussion.

    I do find it impressive how many people will turn on him in a heartbeat, especially out of people here. Chen has done wonders for the company and arguably is the only reason they still exist. This is because he knows what he is doing and however many of you think you might be smarter than him, I assure you, you aren't. I assume most of us are all supporters and fans of BlackBerry? I smell mutiny and it stinks!!!

    Posted via my BlackBerry Passport
    Mutiny? Last I checked, most people here don't work for John Chen and you have no idea how many CB members are "smarter" than him. I am smart enough to know that CEO's are the public face of the company and if they do something stupid like this it isn't just them that get mocked, the company does too. This makes him look stupid and his company look weak. Instead of courting developers he is earning theirs scorn. Not a great way to get apps on your platform.
    01-23-15 04:38 PM
  8. lnichols's Avatar
    Some of these points are fine, however, why shouldn't Netflix be on the Amazon app store?
    Because they are competitors. Amazon prime, Amazon Video????

    Posted via CB10
    01-23-15 05:08 PM
  9. keepthetorch's Avatar
    Hypothetical: If the mandate is passed and effective October 1, 2015, what happens on October 2?
    01-23-15 05:25 PM
  10. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    Because they are competitors. Amazon prime, Amazon Video????

    Posted via CB10
    Huh
    John Chen's thoughts on Net Neutrality-img_20150123_182524.png

    Posted via CB10
    mornhavon likes this.
    01-23-15 05:25 PM
  11. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    I am guessing you are not an app developer. The reaction from app developers to Chen's idea has been extremely negative. If you were a developer you would know that HTML5 has cross platform issues of its own.

    Anyone who wants to spit at Waterloo has been given plenty of ammunition by Chen and his predecessors. This idea has to be the stupidest thing ever to come from Waterloo though.
    While I cannot raise high the flag 'mobile app developer' (only one app, game, HTML5, there must be a review somewhere in the blog, thanks again DJ ) I am a web developer since ... 1997.
    What you say now is similar to what I've been told about css and javascript at these prehistoric Internet times. Firefox was barely born and navigators, besides IE and Netscape, were mostly ISP proprietary software
    Like AOL's or Compuserves'. In these times, you had to develop either a dumb UI or a separate site for each of the leading ones... and I'm not even talking about their versions.
    Today my sites are cross-platform, responsive and conformation tests are limited to details...
    You certainly see what I mean, if you're a developer.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by Superfly_FR; 01-23-15 at 06:59 PM.
    01-23-15 05:37 PM
  12. jmr1015's Avatar
    I'm... Flabbergasted, at the Chen-apologists...

    ADGrant, Cynycl and MikeX74 like this.
    01-23-15 05:53 PM
  13. donnation's Avatar
    Fair enough.

    I'm just glad that Chen started the conversation. I mean, the real conversation (let's not kid ourselves Crackberry, this is all just a sidenote). The concept of "Net Neutrality" is not so clear and, by bringing it up at all, Chen has furthered the discussion.

    I do find it impressive how many people will turn on him in a heartbeat, especially out of people here. Chen has done wonders for the company and arguably is the only reason they still exist. This is because he knows what he is doing and however many of you think you might be smarter than him, I assure you, you aren't. I assume most of us are all supporters and fans of BlackBerry? I smell mutiny and it stinks!!!

    Posted via my BlackBerry Passport
    Come on. Just because you like a product doesn't mean you have to agree with everything their leader says. People talk about the cult of Apple in here. If what you're saying isn't cult like then what else is it. "Even if you don't agree with what he's saying, blindly follow him and don't question him.".

    Mutiny? Chen isn't my captain. He's the CEO of a company that makes money off me from the products I buy from them. I don't know him personally and he isn't part of my family or friends. He's a CEO that isn't infallible and says stupid things just like other CEO's do,, just like all people do including me. I don't have to like everything he says and don't have to agree with him to be a user of their products.. And he may he smarter than me but that doesn't mean that he won't sat something that is beyond stupid.. Im sure a lot of the people at BB are smarter than me, but they also do really stupid things (Like tweet from an iPhone).

    This type of don't dare question BB is what got them in to trouble in the first place. A ton of people in here were agreeing with Mike and Jim back when they were saying you don't need apps and you don't need a camera or a full web browser.. And as soon as people realized they did,, they were villlanized. Point being don't make Chen out to be some leader that we can't question. He's a paid CEO that didn't start with BB and most likely won't end with them.
    01-23-15 06:30 PM
  14. z10Jobe's Avatar
    A slab of glass with something not many others have - flick typing. Same with Samsung keyboards and their handwriting-to-text input. Neither example is necessarily innovative, they just offer options that set them apart from the competition, just like the capacitive Passport keyboard.
    And the paratek antenna..... and hdmi.... , but only the passport has those and thecapacitive keyboard.

    Posted via CB10
    01-23-15 06:43 PM
  15. lnichols's Avatar
    Huh
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20150123_182524.png 
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    Posted via CB10
    By his question I assumed it wasn't there, and provided a reason why it Netflix wouldn't maybe want an app there. They are both content providers. I know they have Netflix in FireTV, but I find a lot of apps that are on the Amazon app store but not available for the BlackBerry phones. I don't use the Amazon app store that often and mostly use Snap anyway.

    Posted via CB10
    01-23-15 07:23 PM
  16. Cozz4ever's Avatar
    iOS is where most of the revenue comes from and it's much easier to develop for than android or BB. Support iOS first is a no brainer for devs.
    How is iOS easier than BB10 to develop?

    I have Xcode and Momentics on my mac. Blackberry is easier to develop for imho

    Posted via CB10
    01-23-15 07:40 PM
  17. TheBirdDog's Avatar
    Come on. Just because you like a product doesn't mean you have to agree with everything their leader says. People talk about the cult of Apple in here. If what you're saying isn't cult like then what else is it. "Even if you don't agree with what he's saying, blindly follow him and don't question him.".

    ... Im sure a lot of the people at BB are smarter than me, but they also do really stupid things (Like tweet from an iPhone).

    This type of don't dare question BB is what got them in to trouble in the first place. A ton of people in here were agreeing with Mike and Jim back when they were saying you don't need apps and you don't need a camera or a full web browser.. And as soon as people realized they did,, they were villlanized. Point being don't make Chen out to be some leader that we can't question. He's a paid CEO that didn't start with BB and most likely won't end with them.
    First off, never blindly follow anything. Think for yourself because no one else can rightfully do that for you. I never said anything to the effect of doing anything otherwise. I don't always agree with everything that anyone says or does. Case in point, I don't think Apple and iMessage was the best example that Chen should have used for his argument.

    I just don't understand why everyone has to be so negative and critical of Chen. Everyone is just up in arms for whatever reason and it seems very difficult for anyone to offer anything constructive. Instead of tearing down Chen for doing something you believe was stupid, why not explain what you would have said or done differently? Question him, sure! That builds a constructive conversation. But just saying how foolish he was to do that or how late or desperate he is doesn't add anything...

    What would you have said or done differently? You can't just sit back and let the other ships pass you. And, in order to rock the boat, you need to make some waves.


    Posted via my BlackBerry Passport
    01-23-15 07:41 PM
  18. anon3923428's Avatar
    It's quite obvious that you guys don't see the point. I've already made the point just as Chen wrote it.

    Posted via CB10
    01-23-15 07:41 PM
  19. TheBirdDog's Avatar
    Why not, our government has imposed a lot on us already, at least this enforcement would benefit us..... lol.

    Posted via CB10
    But the government are the bad guys, they can't possibly do anything to help us. That would be admitting defeat. I would rather lose than admit defeat. [please read the above as sarcasm]

    I'm with you Ray. There's a strong undertow making it difficult to keep swimming upstream though.

    Posted via my BlackBerry Passport
    3MIKE likes this.
    01-23-15 07:48 PM
  20. donnation's Avatar
    It's quite obvious that you guys don't see the point. I've already made the point just as Chen wrote it.

    Posted via CB10
    We aren't all as wise as you.
    ADGrant and MarsupilamiX like this.
    01-23-15 07:54 PM
  21. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    LOL.

    It's insane that a company that depends on intellectual knowledge to exist feels others should be compelled to share theirs.
    xandermac and MarsupilamiX like this.
    01-23-15 08:04 PM
  22. donnation's Avatar
    First off, never blindly follow anything. Think for yourself because no one else can rightfully do that for you. I never said anything to the effect of doing anything otherwise. I don't always agree with everything that anyone says or does. Case in point, I don't think Apple and iMessage was the best example that Chen should have used for his argument.

    I just don't understand why everyone has to be so negative and critical of Chen. Everyone is just up in arms for whatever reason and it seems very difficult for anyone to offer anything constructive. Instead of tearing down Chen for doing something you believe was stupid, why not explain what you would have said or done differently? Question him, sure! That builds a constructive conversation. But just saying how foolish he was to do that or how late or desperate he is doesn't add anything...

    What would you have said or done differently? You can't just sit back and let the other ships pass you. And, in order to rock the boat, you need to make some waves.


    Posted via my BlackBerry Passport
    Because one time in Chen's tenure he is being criticized in here and you think that's a bad thing? I think it's a good thing. It shows that people in here just don't agree with whoever is running Blackberry. We had enough of that with Jim and Mike when things started going downhill and way too much of that with Thor.

    And to your other question, I wouldn't have said anything. He was talking about net neutrality which is fine and then went on a whiny rant of how it's unfair that BB doesn't have all of the apps that Android and iOS do. The BBM and iMessage statement was beyond ridiculous. He could have made a comment on Net neutrality and left it at that. Instead he made it a "poor BB" statement on how it's not fair that his platform doesn't have apps.

    The media has been largely supportive of Chen. I don't think I've ever read one bad thing regarding him. He did something dumb and he got rightly abused for it in the media. If that bothers you then I think you are taking things too personally.
    jmr1015 and pantlesspenguin like this.
    01-23-15 08:11 PM
  23. ADGrant's Avatar
    While I cannot raise high the flag 'mobile app developer' (only one app, game, HTML5, there must be a review somewhere in the blog, thanks again DJ ) I am a web developer since ... 1997.
    What you say now is similar to what I've been told about css and javascript at these prehistoric Internet times. Firefox was barely born and navigators, besides IE and Netscape, were mostly ISP proprietary software
    Like AOL's or Compuserves'. In these times, you had to develop either a dumb UI or a separate site for each of the leading ones... and I'm not even talking about their versions.
    Today my sites are cross-platform, responsive and conformation tests are limited to details...
    You certainly see what I mean, if you're a developer.

    Posted via CB10
    You sites may be cross platform but plenty are not. Even "responsive" sites built with Twitter's Bootstrap libray don't always work correctly on all browsers. I admit I am not primarily a web developer though I have built Single Page Apps with Bootstrap and Angular.js and RESTful backend services using Java or C#. I prefer native toolkits and my mobile apps have been built using Objective-C and C++. I have been a professional developer since 1988 but most of that time has been spent building desktop apps and frameworks.

    Then there is the performance. Native Objective-C and C++ apps have a much smaller memory footprint and are much faster than HTML/CSS/Javascript apps. Even Android apps written in Java are much more efficient than Web apps.
    Last edited by ADGrant; 01-23-15 at 08:34 PM.
    01-23-15 08:21 PM
  24. ADGrant's Avatar
    How is iOS easier than BB10 to develop?

    I have Xcode and Momentics on my mac. Blackberry is easier to develop for imho

    Posted via CB10

    1) The IDE is Xcode, not Eclipse which is the worst IDE I have ever had the misfortune to use.

    2) The profiling tools are excellent. Better than any other platform I have used.

    3) The amount of iOS training material and guidance available from Apple and third parties is enormous and of high quality.

    4) Every possible question seems to have been answered on Stack Exchange.

    5) Did I mention not having to use Eclipse.

    6) The build process and simulator startup are fast on a modern Mac and usable on an old one.

    7) The variations in screen aspect ratio between devices are less dramatic,

    8) Did I tell you how much I hate Eclipse.

    One thing I do have to complement BB on is their choice of Qt & C++. Much better for mobile app development that either Java (Android) or HTML/CSS?Javascript (WebOS, Firefox)
    01-23-15 08:32 PM
  25. anon3923428's Avatar
    We aren't all as wise as you.
    Why thank you

    Posted via CB10
    01-23-15 08:54 PM
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