04-16-15 02:59 PM
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  1. mnc76's Avatar
    Consider the huge amount of money that goes into designing something like a 64-bit SoC. Then consider that it will take quite a while for smartphone OS makers to modify their OSs to not just run on them, but to be optimized for them. By releasing those processors before they are actually "needed", it gives the OS developers - and app developers - a chance to "get to know" the differences and capabilities and do whatever optimizations may be necessary. That way, by the time 64-bit stuff is needed, the software for it will have some developmental maturity.
    While plausible, I don't buy this reasoning.

    As I mentioned, for app developers, there are precious few applications that will get any tangible benefit from 64-bit registers. Second, the CPU register size is largely hidden from developers--specifically those developing in Swift (which is Apple's new recommended language for iOS and which was created to replace Objective-C. Swift is a much higher level language than Objective-C and Apple sees it as the future of iOS development). 64-bit optimizations (if any) are done at the compilation stage, not at the application level coding stage.

    Secondly, *every* new CPU from Apple comes with new features and enhancements that OS developers need to get to know and learn how to optimize against -- even between successive generations of 32-bit processors. 64-bit is simply one enhancement amongst many. 64-bit is simply not as special as the marketing hype suggests.



    Posted from my awesome White Z30
    ArcPlug likes this.
    04-15-15 04:45 AM
  2. Black Ice's Avatar
    More z30's are available again on Crackberry!!!

    Perhaps they can get the word out better than BlackBerry.

    Also, I wonder if they can take advantage of the news in The Globe and Mail today about expiring contracts in June.



    Posted via CB10
    To be honest I can type faster on my Z30 than on my Classic but the Classic is quicker to deal with when it comes to sorting stuff out.
    It's a 50-50 love affair between the two phones.

    04-15-15 11:16 AM
  3. Black Ice's Avatar
    Oh yea! Almost forgot. Glad to hear the good news! I guess the nostalgia for the keyboard and or touch keys can become old hat after a while.
    To me the keyboard on the Classic is a mild challenge and so it makes it kinda fun to tap out a message from time to time on those little buttons.

    04-15-15 11:21 AM
  4. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Oh, I agree that it is less impactful to app developers, but it's very impactful for OS developers, and they're going to want a couple of years of "real-world" experience before they have to rely on those new features. And the chipmakers need to solve any issues that come up as well, such as the heat issues that Qualcomm has experienced with their first-gen SoC.
    JeepBB likes this.
    04-15-15 11:23 AM
  5. mnc76's Avatar
    Oh, I agree that it is less impactful to app developers, but it's very impactful for OS developers, and they're going to want a couple of years of "real-world" experience before they have to rely on those new features. And the chipmakers need to solve any issues that come up as well, such as the heat issues that Qualcomm has experienced with their first-gen SoC.
    Except that everything in Apple's history has pointed to them waiting until there is a solid, user-experience related reason before adopting a new technology.

    Your point about 64-bit could apply to any number of technological enhancements.

    For example: Why doesn't Apple include more RAM in their phones? Answer: They have shown that they can get away with only 1 GB of RAM and provide an impressive user experience.

    But if they included 2 GBs or more, their OS developers could optimize and prepare for the future when they will actually *need* more than 1 GB to run contemporary applications and the OS itself. And in fact, the iPhone would definitely experience improved performance with more RAM (since it's exponentially faster to load data from RAM than SSD storage).

    But that's not the way Apple has done things historically. Sticking with 1 GB of RAM is another example of Apple's MO to not to jump the gun on tech until they absolutely have to. This is what makes their early adoption of 64-bit stand out, and it's why I believe it is more of a marketing play than a decision based primarily on any technological or user-experience need.



    PS: What other optimizations can more RAM provide?

    All computable tasks have a time/space tradeoff. If you limit the memory you have access to, then you need to use a slower algorithm (since, for example, it may need to recalculate things over and over since it can't store as many previously-computed results). With more memory, you can use a faster algorithm. So by increasing the amount of RAM, Apple's OS developers could replace slower, space-limited algorithms with their faster higher-RAM-using equivalents.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_time_tradeoff

    Posted from my awesome White Z30
    Last edited by mnc76; 04-15-15 at 04:36 PM.
    04-15-15 03:48 PM
  6. eyesopen1111's Avatar
    I looked online for good news on Classic sales and I didnt see a single reference to large (or even minor) numbers of adoptions by corporate clients. Which companies are buying this device?

    Does anyone here work for a large or small company that has purchased a large number of Classics? About how many has your company purchased?

    Is anyone aware of any sales at all, whether to corporate customers or otherwise? I havent seen a single Classic anywhere, but Chen's not talking, so maybe we can figure out at least a little bit about how, where, and to whom the device is selling.
    04-15-15 07:09 PM
  7. mornhavon's Avatar
    Most apps don't require data that needs to range over anywhere near the 18 quintillion possible values that can be stored in 64 bits (a quintillion is a billion billion by the way).
    You're essentially referencing the possible number of values of an integer in the "unnecessary" 64-bit architecture, which is around 4.3 billion times more than the possible number of values of an integer in the 32-bit architecture (18,446,744,073,709,551,614 vs 4,294,967,294). It would be similar to saying "the maximum file size in 64-bit Windows 8 is 256 Terabytes, most applications have no need for files that large," yet if the current alternative file system had a maximum file size of 62.5 Kilobytes (4.3 billion times smaller) you'd quickly see the advantages of NTFS.

    I'm not saying that mobile platforms require 64-bit today, but I do think it's wise that they're transitioning now and removing a bottleneck that's quickly approaching before it significantly restricts progress. There are no disadvantages to making the upgrade now, it helps OS developers (and app developers in some cases) to work out the kinks and optimize for 64-bit. There won't be mainstream uses for 64-bit smartphone applications until 64-bit itself is mainstream, so the longer it takes to deploy, the longer it will be before it's "necessary".
    Last edited by mornhavon; 04-16-15 at 06:04 AM. Reason: Corrected million vs. billion and accounted for negative integers (thanks mnc76)
    eyesopen1111 and JeepBB like this.
    04-15-15 11:03 PM
  8. mnc76's Avatar
    You're essentially referencing the maximum value of the "unnecessary" 64-bit architecture, which is around 4.3 million times more than the maximum value of the 32-bit architecture (9,223,372,036,854,775,807 vs 2,147,483,647). It would be similar to saying "the maximum file size in 64-bit Windows 8 is 256 Terabytes, most applications have no need for files that large," yet if the current alternative file system had a maximum file size of 62.5 Megabytes (4.3 million times smaller) you'd quickly see the advantages of NTFS.

    I'm not saying that mobile platforms require 64-bit today, but I do think it's wise that they're transitioning now and removing a bottleneck that's quickly approaching before it significantly restricts progress. There are no disadvantages to making the upgrade now, it helps OS developers (and app developers in some cases) to work out the kinks and optimize for 64-bit. There won't be mainstream uses for 64-bit smartphone applications until 64-bit itself is mainstream, so the longer it takes to deploy, the longer it will be before it's "necessary".
    A 64 bit variable can take on approximately 4.3 billion (not 4.3 million) more unique values than a 32 bit variable.

    2^64 = 2^32 * 2^32, and 2^32 is approximately 4.3 billion.

    The 'maximum values' you quoted above are the positive maximums for signed 64 bit and 32 bit (integer) variables, but a signed variable can be either positive or negative, so you have to double the values you quoted to get the full range of values each type of variable can take on.
    When you double your first value (the 64-bit one), you get the 18 quintillion value I quoted earlier. When you double the second (the 32-bit one), you get approximately 4.3 billion.

    I'm not sure I correctly understand the point you're making re: file systems.
    But I'll just point out that NTFS is supported on 32-bit Windows machines (you don't need a 64-bit CPU to use NTFS). As another example, the CPU in all current BB10 phones are 32-bit but they can clearly use files larger than 62.5 MBs. BB10 can support 128 GB media cards without needing to partition, etc...
    But again, maybe I've misunderstood your intent here.

    Finally, people talk about "64-bit applications", but no one ever specifies exactly what they mean by that. The truth is, in the vast majority of cases, you don't even need a 64-bit CPU to execute what people think of as a "64-bit application". If an application needs 64-bits to do heavy mathematical processing, then you have GPUs and coprocessors that are purpose-built for those types of workloads.


    Posted from my awesome White Z30
    04-16-15 02:01 AM
  9. eyesopen1111's Avatar
    Should we have a separate thread on 64-bit? It has nothing to do with "Good news on Classic sales."

    So again, I ask if anyone has any news, good or bad, on Classic sales??
    Bbnivende likes this.
    04-16-15 02:05 AM
  10. Bacon Munchers's Avatar
    A friend of mine runs a private business selling phones to corporations in Canada (won't say more than this), but he told me he is selling out of Classics and is selling hundreds and hundreds of them at a time.

    Fingers crossed, but he was exceptionally happy with how much business he doing off the phone.

    Posted from my awesome White Z30
    Should I like an April fools joke?

    =
    04-16-15 03:38 AM
  11. mornhavon's Avatar
    A 64 bit variable can take on approximately 4.3 billion (not 4.3 million) more unique values than a 32 bit variable.
    Thanks for correcting me, I hadn't realized that the Windows calculator, in standard mode, had cut off the last 3 digits (16 digit maximum).

    a signed variable can be either positive or negative
    Right again, thanks, but it doesn't change my point.

    I'm not sure I correctly understand the point you're making re: file systems.
    Sorry, maybe it wasn't the best analogy. I was just pointing out that you were looking at the maximum number of unique values of the 64-bit architecture and saying "most apps don't require anywhere near that", but that's the point, 64-bit removes the bottleneck. Shouldn't you be looking at the maximum number of unique values of the existing 32-bit architecture instead? The point of moving to 64-bit is that it provides plenty of headroom (4.3 billion times more headroom).

    I think we're going to see good use cases for 64-bit on mobile within the next couple of years BECAUSE the transition is happening now. If we waited until it was already a major inconvenience, not only would 1- or 2-year old devices not be able to benefit from it, but it would be a scramble to get there instead of having a comfortable transition period. I just don't see the downside.
    04-16-15 06:15 AM
  12. mnc76's Avatar
    Should we have a separate thread on 64-bit? It has nothing to do with "Good news on Classic sales."

    So again, I ask if anyone has any news, good or bad, on Classic sales??
    Funny YOU of all people should say that. Half of my 64-bit comments were in response to YOUR 64-bit comments. lol

    As for Classic sales, last time I talked to my friend a few weeks ago, he said he had sold over 500.

    But I want to stress that this is just one datapoint in a market (Toronto, Canada) that is a more pro-BlackBerry than the average markets BlackBerry is trying to sell in.

    So take this data with those caveats in mind.

    I'd argue that it's still definitely good news (he could have told me he can't give them away, for example), but it's not clear how much we can extrapolate from this single bit of small success.

    Posted from my awesome White Z30
    Last edited by mnc76; 04-16-15 at 01:11 PM.
    04-16-15 12:54 PM
  13. eyesopen1111's Avatar
    Funny you should say that. Half of my 64-bit comments were in response to YOUR 64-bit comments. lol

    As for Classic sales, last time I talked to my friend a few weeks ago, he said he had sold over 500.

    But I want to stress that this is just one datapoint in a market (Toronto, Canada) that is a more pro-BlackBerry than the average markets BlackBerry is trying to sell in.

    So take this data with those caveats in mind.

    Posted from my awesome White Z30
    Actually, I responded in post #89 to White Shirt Only, then in post #93 YOU quoted MY response to HIM and such began your long campaign to share your ideas about how iOS and Android were pushing development of the 64-bit "gimmick" as either a marketing ploy or out of a foolish overestimation of the tech's worth or they are/were simply two years too early to warrant beginning development of 64-bit.

    At any rate, Im sure youll understand my choice to side with the most successful minds in the business over your contrarian views. I think that iOS and Android are simply adding to their already healthy lead in the smartphone arena, that current outcomes are bearing this out, and that future outcomes will continue to bear this out. Of course, if being slow to begin development was the key to success in the smartphone business, BlackBerry and Nokia would still be market leaders. But alas...

    As for your report of the Classic's sales performance at your friend's single store selling 500 Classics, it is grossly out of line with what most Crackberry members have reported, but the more data the better. I just figured that if the Classic were selling well to enterprise or in some other context, it would be noticeable enough that people here would witness and report. Or Chen would try to build momentum by talking about Classic sales wins. I find the absence of these sorts of reports to be a negative indicator.
    04-16-15 01:49 PM
  14. mnc76's Avatar
    Deleted post... Actually have to do real work.
    Last edited by mnc76; 04-16-15 at 02:30 PM.
    04-16-15 02:04 PM
  15. eyesopen1111's Avatar
    Clearly you have no interest in addressing any of the points I made. You have your opinion and aren't open to any of the rebuttals I made to every one of your points. You believe what you believe.

    I pointed out errors in your articles.

    I pointed out how even the "great minds" at Google don't even want to use the CPU for VP9 coding, they want to use the GPU but currently don't have support from hardware makers -- which is exactly what I said -- these tasks are much better done in a GPU or coprocessor than the CPU. It is in fact YOU that have the opinion that contradicts Google's engineers. I'M agreeing with them!

    I pointed out how Apple's early adoption of 64-bit goes totally against their usual practice and asked why they haven't similarly adopted any other technology early -- even though the exact same "early OS optimization" argument applies equally to innumerable other possible enhancements such as more RAM. I even showed multiple ways iOS could be "early optimized" if they added more RAM today (before it's actually needed -- exactly like 64-bit).

    That's fine if you want to dismiss everything I've said without addressing any of the points I made, but I'm done talking at a brick wall who is unwilling to even entertain my arguments while I waste my time carefully and thoughtfully addressing yours.

    Posted from my awesome White Z30
    I sincerely apologize. I actually like the idea of more RAM for the iPhone, particularly if it boosted multitasking performance. I have a Nokia N9 and the multitasking with that phone and with both my Z10 and Z30 have some advantages over my jailbroken iPhone6+'s multitasking. We probably can agree on that!

    Im not as invested in the 64-bit thing as you are. With that, my attitude is "the companies are paid for their results, not their methods." So when I see Apple and Google and I even read about 64-bit Windows Phones, too, I figure 64-bit will be the future. How can it not be if all the major companies already agree? It just seems to me that I trust them to improve tech and that this 64-bit method will be another successful step in that larger process. If they all turn out to be wrong, then my trust will have been misplaced. But well all be screwed anyways, so...? Of course, if that happens, you will have Mega bragging rights!

    But I care that you care and Ill be a better forum citizen from here on out.
    mnc76 likes this.
    04-16-15 02:40 PM
  16. mnc76's Avatar
    I sincerely apologize. I actually like the idea of more RAM for the iPhone, particularly if it boosted multitasking performance. I have a Nokia N9 and the multitasking with that phone and with both my Z10 and Z30 have some advantages over my jailbroken iPhone6+'s multitasking. We probably can agree on that!

    Im not as invested in the 64-bit thing as you are. With that, my attitude is "the companies are paid for their results, not their methods." So when I see Apple and Google and I even read about 64-bit Windows Phones, too, I figure 64-bit will be the future. How can it not be if all the major companies already agree? It just seems to me that I trust them to improve tech and that this 64-bit method will be another successful step in that larger process. If they all turn out to be wrong, then my trust will have been misplaced. But well all be screwed anyways, so...? Of course, if that happens, you will have Mega bragging rights!

    But I care that you care and Ill be a better forum citizen from here on out.
    No problem. I lost my cool as well in the quoted post! I apologize!

    I understand your points. In real life I'm actually a developer and researcher in computer engineering and theoretical computer science, so these types of topics are very interesting to me.

    As for the benefit of early 64-bit, yes there is a case for it -- but as I mentioned -- this goes totally against Apple's normal behavior and one has to wonder why they would change course on it for this one enhancement and no others.

    So, for *Apple*, it appears clear to me it was done for marketing purposes way more than technological purposes. Adding 64-bit does not enhance the user experience or functionality at all, and it has a neglible benefit to performance. Apple usually only adopts new tech when it will improve on of these factors, even if early adoption would allow for future OS enhancement.

    In other words, future OS enhancement has never been a priority for them before, why now all of a sudden?

    Until the iPhone has *more* than 4 GBs of RAM (which will probably be in maybe 3 years? 4 years?), they don't actually truly need it. And Apple is not known for including tech they don't yet need.

    Cheers




    Posted from my awesome White Z30
    Last edited by mnc76; 04-16-15 at 03:11 PM.
    mornhavon likes this.
    04-16-15 02:59 PM
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