08-21-15 09:19 AM
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  1. Toodeurep's Avatar
    Back on topic ... sorry everyone.
    No, you are doing fine. I like the sources rather than made up info.

    2 years ago I believed Samsung was bigger than Android and had the leverage to do whatever they wanted. Now, I am not so sure.
    Supa_Fly1 and MarsupilamiX like this.
    06-20-15 09:33 AM
  2. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    No, you are doing fine. I like the sources rather than made up info.

    2 years ago I believed Samsung was bigger than Android and had the leverage to do whatever they wanted. Now, I am not so sure.
    I agree. Samsung realizes this too. I think the Tizen saber-rattling brought Samsung down to earth.

    If Samsung left Android, another OEM would happily fill the void.
    06-20-15 10:24 AM
  3. AnimalPak200's Avatar
    So are we thinking the most likely outcome will be a Samsung device with BlackBerry flavoring?

    Something like those mid 90s Ford Explorers 'Eddie Bauer Edition' ?

    Samsung Galaxy Edge,.. BlackBerry Edition

    ?

    Posted via CB10
    06-20-15 11:25 AM
  4. skibnik's Avatar
    Back in the day when Blackberry was the only game in town so to speak, they could make demands from carriers such as BIS service fees. The carriers hated this but had no choice and paid up. Now that the shoe is on the other foot and Google has the brass ring in the industry, its just a matter of time to see if Blackberry will hold its nose and kiss that ring. The old guard that ran RIM/Blackberry were too proud and/or stupid not to cut a deal back then, Chen seems to be a more reasonable person so we have to wait and see.
    06-20-15 01:29 PM
  5. Ment's Avatar
    On the other hand, for OHA compliance, maybe BlackBerry wouldn't have to remove the runtime from already-sold phones. Maybe they'd just have to remove it from new sales going forward. That seems a lot more reasonable at least.
    Don't peeps remember BB10 and Flash, so they have their own recent history of removing a major feature. Sure it spawned many a rant thread but life went on. If the runtime is removed it will work the same way. Upgrade to a newer OS version: runtime is gone or you can stay on the existing and use it.
    06-20-15 05:09 PM
  6. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    So are we thinking the most likely outcome will be a Samsung device with BlackBerry flavoring?

    Something like those mid 90s Ford Explorers 'Eddie Bauer Edition' ?

    Samsung Galaxy Edge,.. BlackBerry Edition

    ?

    Posted via CB10
    Personally I think it's the best option, and also doesn't preclude them from launching a cheap forked Android all touch simultaneously. And they can keep the runtime in BB10 for the foreseeable future as well. From Samsung's POV, I can see them being interested in experimenting with a device like the Slider: it would be unique; would offer another form factor (and potential upgrade path) to their current Galaxy S and Note users who might be bored and want to switch things up; I think many users would appreciate the Hub as much as BB users do; the touch capacitive pkb with actions / shortcuts running in Android would also be appreciated and Samsung might actually advertise it as a feature, lol.
    06-20-15 08:27 PM
  7. Ed YANG's Avatar
    What If:xInstead of BlackBerry making the Android devices. They would use some crafty corporate maneuvers and 'cross-licensing' deals to satisfy the OHA requirements (Troy will chime in, hopefully).
    Option 1:
    BlackBerry spins off a separate entity (call it, BlackBerry Mobility). BlackBerry Mobility's only devices are the new Android devices. In order to incorporate the BlackBerry Experience features (hub, bbm, etc) the license them from BlackBerry (at a nominal fee). At the same time, BlackBerry continues to produce and develop BB10 devices with the Android Runtime. Since BlackBerry Mobility would not be selling any Android-forked devices,.. would they therefore be eligible to become an OHA member?
    Spinning off another entity... wouldn't that adds aditional operational cost to BB, which is still not earning enough to afford another division?
    Option 2:
    BlackBerry licenses the BlackBerry Experience features AND the BlackBerry mark to FoxConn. FoxConn stops producing any BB10 devices, and only makes these Android wielding BlackBerry-branded devices. BlackBerry then merely offers FoxConn merchandise, and FoxConn contracts back service support for the devices from BlackBerry. This wouldn't even require BlackBerry having anything to do with OHA.
    Licensing maybe an option, but in licensing, the licensee would often expect the principal to give in such that they can make products better... which is a common excuse. And should the licensee don't execute tough security measures, what BB developed may eventually be leaked thru the licensee employees... by the time the "pirated BBOS" hits the streets... BB will be doomed.
    Thoughts?
    Maybe I just need to stop staring at my computer screen for a while.
    What BlackBerry needs now, is a wider exposure of what their OS design can do.
    Thru marketing yes... but controlled on expenditure. Instead of hiring public figures whom may demand high paychecks, the spokesperson in the ad should be as simple and common as general smartphone using population. Put the focus on what the OS10 can do.

    Next, re-design an old version of OS10 for other OS users, installable to their phones(which requires certain hardware specifications... such as CPU type as well as ROM/RAM size...) such that it can be dual boot to gain wider exposure. User experience spreads wider than just plain marketing in current smartphone era.
    06-21-15 08:25 AM
  8. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Google could elect not to license Google Services and the Play Store to anyone, for any reason. It's Google's product - they own it and they control it. OHA membership is VOLUNTARY and there is plenty of other OSs on the market, and nothing prevents anyone from making their own. Any lawsuit would be laughed out of court.

    If it was that easy, why haven't all of the OHA members done so - why do they follow the OHA rules instead? More over, why hasn't SAMSUNG done it?
    First of all, the word barriers of entry are actually a thing, when we talk about monopolies.
    The train of thought that everyone could make an OS is correct, because of Google's quasi monopoly though (for everything not in the high-end, Google has a de facto monopoly), the barriers of entry are so incredibly high, that the chances of success are basically non-existent.

    The only question to answer, is if one can prove, that Google's way of doing things is distorting the competition through monopolistic behaviour.

    I don't doubt that you have quite a bit of technical expertise, but concerning monopolistic behaviour and the question if Google's way of doing things is abusive, I doubt that you have the expertise.
    Even less so when we talk about international markets.

    But the easiest answer to your question at the end is the following:
    The manufacturers very probably abide because it is the easiest thing to do for now.
    They are basically taking the path of least resistance.
    The moment said path has some serious drawbacks for the manufacturers, you can be sure that the OHA won't be the same anymore.
    LuvULongTime likes this.
    06-21-15 11:48 AM
  9. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    No, you are doing fine. I like the sources rather than made up info.

    2 years ago I believed Samsung was bigger than Android and had the leverage to do whatever they wanted. Now, I am not so sure.
    Samsung is Android in "the West". In absolutely every market tier.
    Nobody could take over their customer base in a matter of a few quarters.
    No consumer who bought a 1000$ Edge 6 would be happy with a 200$ Huawei phone.

    As long as we are talking about the west, there is a certain market equilibrium between Google and Samsung.
    It's a fragile one though, and Google very probably has more to say than Samsung.
    How much more.. Well, that's the question.

    I agree. Samsung realizes this too. I think the Tizen saber-rattling brought Samsung down to earth.

    If Samsung left Android, another OEM would happily fill the void.
    Nobody could fill that void though, in western markets.
    Nobody has the scale, the marketing presence or the good will.
    It would take years, for someone else to fill that void.

    Meanwhile, the competition gets even fiercer and profits smaller.
    I honestly don't see it, as being that easy.
    (different story in emerging markets obviously)
    06-21-15 12:05 PM
  10. Toodeurep's Avatar
    As a former AOS user, I have been more interested in what LG has been producing than Samsung. I think that if given the chance, they would be right there in a matter of weeks, not quarters or months.
    06-21-15 01:08 PM
  11. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Samsung is Android in "the West". In absolutely every market tier.
    Nobody could take over their customer base in a matter of a few quarters.
    No consumer who bought a 1000$ Edge 6 would be happy with a 200$ Huawei phone.

    As long as we are talking about the west, there is a certain market equilibrium between Google and Samsung.
    It's a fragile one though, and Google very probably has more to say than Samsung.
    How much more.. Well, that's the question.



    Nobody could fill that void though, in western markets.
    Nobody has the scale, the marketing presence or the good will.
    It would take years, for someone else to fill that void.

    Meanwhile, the competition gets even fiercer and profits smaller.
    I honestly don't see it, as being that easy.
    (different story in emerging markets obviously)
    Samsung does have huge advantage with regards to economies of scale. It pretty much controls a portion of the supply side too, so no, I'm not sure any one entity would be able to fill it immediately.

    As Tooderup notes, LG would happily expand, and I think HTC would dearly love to regain the Android OEM crown.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    06-21-15 03:32 PM
  12. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    As a former AOS user, I have been more interested in what LG has been producing than Samsung. I think that if given the chance, they would be right there in a matter of weeks, not quarters or months.


    Samsung does have huge advantage with regards to economies of scale. It pretty much controls a portion of the supply side too, so no, I'm not sure any one entity would be able to fill it immediately.

    As Tooderup notes, LG would happily expand, and I think HTC would dearly love to regain the Android OEM crown.
    The problem is time.
    There would be a vacuum of X quarters (saying how many would be unprofessional, as I have no rational basis to say how many, but definitely more than 3) in which the supply side would be constrained immensely alone.

    Considering mindshare and marketing, there would be sooooooo many things to accomplish, on the side of the competition.
    Samsung is pretty much half of the Android sales in this world.

    In case of Samsung getting kicked out of the OHA, what would be the time frame in which Samsung would have to stop deploying Google Services?
    What if Samsung ignores the order to not ship their devices with Google Services, and goes to court?

    Nobody would be able to substitute Samsung in the short term.
    The mid to long term is obviously another matter and I absolutely agree with both of you that LG, or HTC or whoever, would be very willing to replace Samsung.
    LuvULongTime likes this.
    06-21-15 04:28 PM
  13. BCITMike's Avatar
    Didn't Sony do this? I might be misremembering this but didn't they advertise one of their PlayStations as being capable of being reformatted to run Linux, then in a later software update they removed that capability?

    I remember some people being angered because they were literally removing an advertised feature by updating it away...

    Yeah, here it is - Sony to Remove Linux Functionality From PlayStation 3

    So it's not unprecidented.

    On the other hand, for OHA compliance, maybe BlackBerry wouldn't have to remove the runtime from already-sold phones. Maybe they'd just have to remove it from new sales going forward. That seems a lot more reasonable at least.
    I'm sure that preventing piracy was their excuse/loophole.

    Posted via CB10
    06-21-15 05:23 PM
  14. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    I'm sure that preventing piracy was their excuse/loophole.

    Posted via CB10
    Couldn't Google use that one as well?
    06-21-15 06:38 PM
  15. dguy123's Avatar
    ... already been said multiple times
    Last edited by dguy123; 06-21-15 at 08:20 PM.
    06-21-15 07:44 PM
  16. Bonsaibo's Avatar
    So BlackBerry could put the android player on app world and all will be fine? Cool. Maybe they'll do that.

    Wanna use android apps on your BlackBerry? Download the player and then your favorite android app stores.

    Seems simple enough to me. Bb10 doesn't NEED android any anything out of the box.


    Posted via CB10
    In one of the other many threads on this topic, this has been discussed as well. What I'm not sure is if "pulling the runtime" AND having a user choose to download the runtime is all that easy and if the user experience would be the same tomorrow as it is today.
    06-21-15 07:58 PM
  17. dguy123's Avatar
    But they don't stop anyone from joining and if it was anticompetitive wouldn't Samsung or the bigger OEMs would have done something by now? I agree competition is excellent but you can't just use somebody else's services and products to get a free ride. OS X has rules on where you can install their OS (on apple branded hardware only) Linux uses the GNU licence that requires you to provide the source code of your modifications to anyone that requests them. These licences have been around for ages and make strict requirements of what is allowed and what isn't. You have to respect the rules or licence on the product you want to use.
    Sure. Companies are free to join... and subject themselves to arbitrary rules that Google can change at any time and interpret anyway they choose... including interpretations that adversely affect the ability of the member to execute their business.
    Given the market % owned by Android /Google this could be deemed anticompetitive.

    Posted via CB10
    06-21-15 08:11 PM
  18. Toodeurep's Avatar
    ...In case of Samsung getting kicked out of the OHA, what would be the time frame in which Samsung would have to stop deploying Google Services?
    What if Samsung ignores the order to not ship their devices with Google Services, and goes to court?...
    Hadn't thought too much of this possibility until now. I'll have to check but my guess is Google could shut them off with device identifiers.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    06-21-15 10:46 PM
  19. AnimalPak200's Avatar
    Hadn't thought too much of this possibility until now. I'll have to check but my guess is Google could shut them off with device identifiers.
    Or maybe they would just quadruple the number of Google ads shown on the devices. That would be fun.

    Posted via CB10
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    06-21-15 11:44 PM
  20. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    re:OP
    Way too complicated if you ask me.
    Unless something *really* new, BlackBerry will not be OHA.
    IF any, I'd search in the Cyanogen+MSFT services direction. But I have no clue & no info, to tell the truth.
    06-22-15 06:31 AM
  21. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    re:OP
    Way too complicated if you ask me.
    Unless something *really* new, BlackBerry will not be OHA.
    IF any, I'd search in the Cyanogen+MSFT services direction. But I have no clue & no info, to tell the truth.
    ? Do you mean instead of switching to Android that has an ecosystem, switch to Windows which is struggling in the mobile market and is basically copying BlackBerry and putting a runtime on windows. Just not a runtime that is based on Android so it doesn't cause any issues with OEMs and the OHA. But still just a runtime that would allow Android Apps to be easily ported over to the Windows Platform... if developers want to do it.

    While I think MS has the money and marketshare to "possible" make this work for them. Really don't see any advantage of BlackBerry choosing to go this route and become a Windows supplier.

    Unless you meant that BlackBerry should copy what Windows is doing and use a Cyanogen Runtime instead of the Android one that they chose? But that puts them pretty much back..... nowhere.

    Personally I feel that Chen wants out of hardware as it is losing money and there is no indication that is going to change. So I think just pulling the plug on hardware would hurt services sales too much. He needs a transition and the BlackBerry Experience and Android will provide that. So I can see the OHA being an option for the short term.
    06-22-15 09:06 AM
  22. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Hadn't thought too much of this possibility until now. I'll have to check but my guess is Google could shut them off with device identifiers.
    Remembering the old iPhone vs Galaxy law suits, Samsung is someone who has all the time in the world, if they want to fight it in court.

    I am absolutely clueless on what Google could legally do, to ensure that Samsung really has no access to the Google Play Store, that's why I am wondering.
    06-22-15 11:00 AM
  23. AnimalPak200's Avatar
    Remembering the old iPhone vs Galaxy law suits, Samsung is someone who has all the time in the world, if they want to fight it in court.

    I am absolutely clueless on what Google could legally do, to ensure that Samsung really has no access to the Google Play Store, that's why I am wondering.
    I don't think they could or would do much. Seeing as how far along we have gotten with Cobalt's patched Google Play Store, Services and Maps,.. it would be very difficult for them to stop people from downloading the Play Store and Google services into a real Android device.

    I will imagine Samsung could stop pre-installing Google Services and Play Store, and say that's enough effort on their part.

    Posted via CB10
    06-22-15 11:09 AM
  24. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    Unless you meant that BlackBerry should copy what Windows is doing and use a Cyanogen Runtime instead of the Android one that they chose? But that puts them pretty much back..... nowhere.
    In this 1000% random and fictional scenario, it is :

    Keep BB10 "as is" (enhance Android Player)
    +
    Launch a Cynagogen+MS services alternative, either as main OS or balance private/work split.

    I'm just saying this is more plausible than BlackBerry going OHA with current restrictions.
    And it doesn't even worse 2 cents.
    06-22-15 11:59 AM
  25. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    In this 1000% random and fictional scenario, it is :

    Keep BB10 "as is" (enhance Android Player)
    +
    Launch a Cynagogen+MS services alternative, either as main OS or balance private/work split.

    I'm just saying this is more plausible than BlackBerry going OHA with current restrictions.
    And it doesn't even worse 2 cents.
    Right now everything is fictional.... tomorrow, maybe not so much.
    Superfly_FR likes this.
    06-22-15 12:21 PM
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