08-21-15 09:19 AM
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  1. BCITMike's Avatar
    It doesn't really work this way and you should know that. Google provides a service, to use their service you have to agree to certain terms and conditions they have put forth, what you're suggesting is that Google is preventing a competing company from providing a similar service.
    Please rephrase. I don't know what you're getting at.
    06-19-15 06:58 PM
  2. twiggyrj's Avatar
    Yes they do, by putting conditions on them. It's the specific conditions that this conversation is about.

    Samsung will pull out the lawyers when it fits their strategy. Lawyers aren't cheap. Sometimes companies intentionally wait a few years before suing so that there is more benefit (ie, larger financial settlement, easier to prove, etc). Setting the wrong precedence sucks, and having an awkward relationship with a major partner is almost never good. Perhaps your argument would be better if you used Acer or HTC or someone who isn't Android's number 1 vendor.

    Many companies agree to illegal deals just because they have to or because they'll also benefit from it. Can you pick up a newspaper without hearing of some major fine by some major company doing something obviously wrong but treating it like standard business operations somewhere in the world? Sometimes it benefits them (ie, when a manufacturer tries to force a minimum sales price, then the sellers don't need to undercut each other on margin or service). There are Canadian companies co-operating with Canadian authorities investigating the Apple monopolistic deals and provide insider details that will no doubt hurt Apple. From what I've read from these reports, it seemed pretty clear there was anti-competitive language involved by specifically preventing sales of competitive devices through various means.

    Licenses don't supersede the law. Private contracts are often thrown out for being illegal. On this past week's episode of Silicon Valley, the employee contracts were found to be illegal in California and voided. I'm sure lawyers looked over those contracts for years and thought they were fine, or thought they had an argument for why they are valid.

    I am not a lawyer. Neither are you guys. It's a pretty moot argument, other than to just indicate its not simple or straight forward like its being represented.

    I don't think this is just about Google Play services on Android, which I think your argument would be closer, but this is for Android the OS.

    I think a lot of people are treating Android=Google Play Android.

    I just disagree with your premise, BlackBerry can easily and simply chuck out the runtime. Secondly BlackBerry should honour the developers wishes in using their services. Their services, their rules. Why is that a bad thing to honour the developers wishes?
    mornhavon likes this.
    06-19-15 06:58 PM
  3. BCITMike's Avatar
    I just disagree with your premise, BlackBerry can easily and simply chuck out the runtime. Secondly BlackBerry should honour the developers wishes in using their services. Their services, their rules. Why is that a bad thing to honour the developers wishes?
    No, BlackBerry cannot easily and simply chuck out the runtime in a small OS update 10.3.3. This is redacting a major feature that existing users are expecting and would break significant users operations and usability. This would be class action lawsuit worthy. Anyone who suggests this has very little experience, IMO.
    Bbnivende, MarsupilamiX and web99 like this.
    06-19-15 07:03 PM
  4. twiggyrj's Avatar
    No, BlackBerry cannot easily and simply chuck out the runtime in a small OS update 10.3.3. This is redacting a major feature that existing users are expecting and would break significant users operations and usability. This would be class action lawsuit worthy. Anyone who suggests this has very little experience, IMO.

    They can in a major revision, give developers and users clear notice i.e. 6 months. Why should BlackBerry be given special treatment? When I develop my projects and use an external library I have to follow the developers wishes on how and where I can use it.
    06-19-15 07:06 PM
  5. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    All this discussion stirred something in my memory about Google from a few years ago. Reading at face value, as others have said, Google has room to interpret their own rules depending on whom they're dealing with. In the case of this article (from 2012) it's how they reacted to Samsung vs how they reacted to Cyanogenmod at the time. A lot has changed since then, but interesting read. It's in regards to the Multi-Window feature that both companies included in their flavours of Android at the time.

    Samsung adds Multi-Window despite threat from Google | Mobile | Geek.com
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    06-19-15 07:07 PM
  6. Mirk's Avatar
    Please rephrase. I don't know what you're getting at.
    What Google is doing isn't some clean cut and dry anti-compete thing like you make it out to be. You are suggesting they are stopping competition by offering a service that is better than any other similar service. I'm not surprised you don't really understand.
    06-19-15 07:32 PM
  7. BCITMike's Avatar
    They can in a major revision, give developers and users clear notice i.e. 6 months. Why should BlackBerry be given special treatment? When I develop my projects and use an external library I have to follow the developers wishes on how and where I can use it.
    No, you can't deprecate major functionality of an existing product without fear of class action lawsuit. They can release a new device without it, but they can't upgrade Z10's to a new major revision and strip out the Android.
    06-19-15 07:33 PM
  8. BCITMike's Avatar
    What Google is doing isn't some clean cut and dry anti-compete thing like you make it out to be. You are suggesting they are stopping competition by offering a service that is better than any other similar service. I'm not surprised you don't really understand.
    Clean cut and dry? WTF? I quoted from wikipedia (though I see I failed to provide exact citation, I gave the url from which it came from) about anti-competiveness and then gave an example of how it would apply in like one sentence. I said I am not a lawyer and this is for lawyers to argue.

    Clean cut and dry would have been quoting the law and the contract and stating it as fact. You are changing words (better?) and meaning (any?) of what I said. I think you assumed too much for a point I was raising or misread it entirely. Feel free to put me on your ignore list.
    06-19-15 07:44 PM
  9. twiggyrj's Avatar
    No, you can't deprecate major functionality of an existing product without fear of class action lawsuit. They can release a new device without it, but they can't upgrade Z10's to a new major revision and strip out the Android.

    That didn't stop Microsoft with upgrading Windows 9.X (DOS based) to Windows XP/2000 (Windows NT based) which resulted in the full DOS functionality being removed and a large chunk of DOS applications not working.
    06-19-15 07:45 PM
  10. BCITMike's Avatar
    That didn't stop Microsoft with upgrading Windows 9.X (DOS based) to Windows XP/2000 (Windows NT based) which resulted in the full DOS functionality being removed and a large chunk of DOS applications not working.
    You mean changing from one OS to another entirely different OS with a different stack and not a continuation of the same OS/product?
    You mean how they charged a new price to get that upgrade and it was an entirely different product/SKU with increased system requirements?

    No, not the same, at all.

    p.s. it would be news to me that a "large chunk" of DOS applications stopped working. I can't think of any, let alone a large chunk. Microsoft is FAMOUS for legacy support for years beyond reasonable expectation of support. In fact, I can only remember the hassles of limited memory use in Win 3.1 and having absolutely none of that to deal with in Win XP. I don't think Microsoft hid that XP was a 32 bit OS.

    Running DOS Programs on XP

    DOS programs are the oldest, and since Microsoft dropped the DOS Compatibility Mode from Windows XP, you might think it dropped support for DOS programs altogether. In fact, new options in Windows XP may make running DOS programs easier.
    A quick google search shows dos problems in XP SP2 to most likely be from corrupted/damaged system files, so its not running properly. If you want to continue this DOS discussion, let's do so in PM.
    06-19-15 08:00 PM
  11. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    No, you can't deprecate major functionality of an existing product without fear of class action lawsuit. They can release a new device without it, but they can't upgrade Z10's to a new major revision and strip out the Android.
    Hm. Initially you couldn't load Android apks directly, no, didn't that arrive with 10.2.1? And if they announced an EOL for the runtime with support for legacy devices (but not developing it past its current stage), then doesn't that get them off the hook? And wouldn't that be enough to satisfy Google? I can see Google accepting BlackBerry into OHA membership in that case. I don't think the company is completely unreasonable, do you?
    06-19-15 08:02 PM
  12. twiggyrj's Avatar
    You mean changing from one OS to another entirely different OS with a different stack and not a continuation of the same OS/product?
    You mean how they charged a new price to get that upgrade and it was an entirely different product/SKU with increased system requirements?

    No, not the same, at all.

    p.s. it would be news to me that a "large chunk" of DOS applications stopped working. I can't think of any, let alone a large chunk. Microsoft is FAMOUS for legacy support for years beyond reasonable expectation of support. In fact, I can only remember the hassles of limited memory use in Win 3.1 and having absolutely none of that to deal with in Win XP. I don't think Microsoft hid that XP was a 32 bit OS.

    Running DOS Programs on XP



    A quick google search shows dos problems in XP SP2 to most likely be from corrupted/damaged system files, so its not running properly. If you want to continue this DOS discussion, let's do so in PM.


    It was the only upgrade path, most consumers it was still Windows like Windows Phone 7 to Windows Phone 8. Compatibility can't continue forever so BlackBerry can discontinue and remove the runtime, it just needs to highlight this and give sufficient notice for this action. Having a dedicated OS for industry and one for Consumers could be great for both camps. Everyone gets what they want. Also I was under the impression you couldn't use the runtime under the work section of BES so it wouldn't seriously impact their target market.
    06-19-15 08:03 PM
  13. Bbnivende's Avatar
    BB7 is an example of an orphaned OS. It could be that our current BB10 with runtime phones could be simularly orphaned.

    Posted via CB10
    06-19-15 08:07 PM
  14. Bbnivende's Avatar
    It was the only upgrade path, most consumers it was still Windows like Windows Phone 7 to Windows Phone 8. Compatibility can't continue forever so BlackBerry can discontinue and remove the runtime. Having a dedicated OS for industry and one for Consumers could be great for both camps. Everyone gets what they want.
    Not really. Not much point to an all touch Android BlackBerry or a BB10 all touch with out run time.

    Posted via CB10
    06-19-15 08:10 PM
  15. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    It was the only upgrade path, most consumers it was still Windows like Windows Phone 7 to Windows Phone 8. Compatibility can't continue forever so BlackBerry can discontinue and remove the runtime. Having a dedicated OS for industry and one for Consumers could be great for both camps. Everyone gets what they want.
    Not to mention how Microsoft recently dumped Surface RT owners. YES, they'll get 'some' features of Windows 10, but it's pretty much EOL.

    But newer Surface tablets are fully supported.
    06-19-15 08:12 PM
  16. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    Not really. Not much point to an all touch Android BlackBerry or a BB10 all touch with out run time.

    Posted via CB10
    If they dump the runtime in BB10 that frees them up to make full Android devices with Google Play Services so no need for the runtime. People that want that option can choose the Android BlackBerry (or Samsung partnered one, lol).
    06-19-15 08:14 PM
  17. Bbnivende's Avatar
    If they dump the runtime in BB10 that frees them up to make full Android devices with Google Play Services so no need for the runtime. People that want that option can choose the Android BlackBerry (or Samsung partnered one, lol).
    Who wants an All touch BlackBerry using a Android OS? Few buy an all touch BlackBerry for the "device". All touch BlackBerry users like BB10. Classic users buy the phone for the device not necessarily the OS. BB10 all touch without run time is a non starter. An Android BlackBerry all touch would not sell either.

    Posted via CB10
    06-19-15 08:28 PM
  18. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    Who wants an All touch BlackBerry using a Android OS? Few buy an all touch BlackBerry for the "device". All touch BlackBerry users like BB10. Classic users buy the phone for the device not necessarily the OS. BB10 all touch without run time is a non starter. An Android BlackBerry all touch would not sell either.

    Posted via CB10
    Oh I agree in many respects. I personally believe their best option - if they're exploring the Android route - is to partner with Samsung (if they're game). A Samsung branded Android device with BlackBerry elements (Hub, touch capacitive pkb and actions/shortcuts, etc.) is ideal. Samsung has positive brand recognition and great carrier / retail placement.

    The runtime doesn't seem to be helping BB10 adoption in any event. If the plan is to keep BB10 alive, better to just dump it and save the resources and money and spend it on growing the native platform and/or redirecting it to software services.
    06-19-15 08:42 PM
  19. Supa_Fly1's Avatar
    This was because Google threatened to revoke Samsung's OHA membership (stripping them of Google Services and the Play Store) if they proceeded with their initial Tizen plans, which included an Android runtime from the factory. Samsung was hoping to use that to slowly replace Android with Tizen underneath their TouchWiz interface. Google put a quick stop to that, and devs certainly haven't been flocking to build out the Tizen app ecosystem. In fact, just as you pointed out, when Samsung forced Google to act, the result was that Samsung ended up signing a 10-year agreement with Google, which, among other things, is why Tizen defaults to Google Search and has YouTube.

    The value of Google's app and services ecosystem should not be news to any BB10 user, and Google, who has spent literally billions of dollars to build that ecosystem, is certainly not going to give it away to companies who break their rules for access.

    If the situation was reversed, folks here would be crying "foul" over the idea of Google trying to get a free ride on BB's ecosystem without following BB's rules...
    Do you have any news to back up it was Google threatening Samsung? As I recall it Samsung controls a SUBSTANTIAL and undeniable lead in Androids Ecosystem and dominance on a Global scale. If Samsung would suddenly stop to make Android OS devices say on July 1st without even an public announcement for 6mths ... their coffers would NOT even hurt EVEN after 2yrs! Their more than just phones, cpu's chipsets and storage you know.

    More over it would potentially give a chance for HTC, LG, Lenovo and Sony to immediate increase marketshare along with Motorola yet NONE of them in just a year would dominate as the majority of Android users get Samsung first and foremost above all else even the "nexus" brand duopoly year after year cannot compare.

    As I recall it Google tried to strong arm and THEN almost BEGGED Samsung. As I said Google and Samsung are almost exclusively = Android OS.

    Now about that news clipping backing up your statement that Google was successful in threatening Samsung to revoke their OHA license and that Samsung backed down?? I recall early on Google attempted that and QUICKLY reversed their stance as Samsung did NOT back down.

    This ... 2yrs leading up to it.

    According to the Wall Street Journal, Google executives have had discussions about Samsungs dominance over the past year. Android head Andy Rubin praised the companys success, but also said that Samsung could become a threat. Rubin apparently went on to say that Google used the buyout of Motorola as a hedge against such a threat.

    The biggest concern seems to be that Samsung is so far ahead of its nearest competitor within the Android ecosystem. According to IDC, Samsung makes up about 40% of the Android ecosystem, and the next closest manufacturer is Huawei at just 6.6%. And, in the world of Android tablets, Samsung has been making strides, and even outselling the Amazon Kindle Fire at the end of last year




    ...




    If such a fear were to come true, Samsung would need to replace all of Googles apps, including Google Maps, Gmail, YouTube, and most importantly, the Google Play Store itself. Samsung could relatively easily replace Google Calendar (and has basically already done so with TouchWiz), but everything else would be much more difficult to replace. The biggest trouble being the Play Store itself, because if users bought a new Samsung Galaxy device running a forked version of Android, it would be very hard to pass off a new app store.


    Samsung has already bit into Googles revenue by pushing its own Music Hub, which takes purchases away from Google Play. And, it seems possible that Samsung could do the same with videos, but completely replacing Google Play means also replacing the book and magazine sections, and of course the app section, which currently offers upwards of 800,000 apps.


    Thats why we can understand that Google would be monitoring the situation, and may well have bought Motorola to be a hedge in case Samsung went rogue, but were not too sure that there is all that much to be worried about. At least, there shouldnt be too much concern about Samsung forking Android. The company could still exert quite a bit of influence in other ways, and continue to cut into Googles revenue streams with other services and content store.
    Source: Motorola is Google's defense against Samsung's Android dominance

    26 Feb 2013, 03:02,


    Original Source: Samsung's Heft in Android Worries Google - WSJ


    Updated Feb. 25, 2013 7:42 p.m. ET


    ^ that came from the very FIRST Google search result here in Canada with search terms "Google threatens Samsung"
    Not any news article on that very search terms at all, not even on first 2 pages.


    Google Search terms:
    Google threatens to remove OHA license Samsung
    https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid...icense+Samsung

    First two hits have to do with Acer not Samsung lol.

    What YOU speak of is THIS:
    Google, Samsung strike patent cross-licensing deal

    Google and Samsung on Sunday unveiled a broad, long-term cross-licensing deal that will cover their existing patents as well as those filed over the next 10 years.
    The two companies provided essentially no details about the terms of the deal or what patents and technologies its covers, only saying that it's "mutually beneficial." However, they did take veiled shots at Apple, stressing how two big companies can work together to avoid litigation.
    ^ recall the Samsung and Apple endless global litigation battles that just seemed ridiculous?!

    "Samsung and Google are showing the rest of the industry that there is more to gain from cooperating than engaging in unnecessary patent disputes," Seungho Ahn, the head of Samsung's Intellectual Property Center, said in a press release.
    Allen Lo, deputy general counsel for patents at Google, echoed Ahn's comments, saying that "by working together on agreements like this, companies can reduce the potential for litigation and focus instead on innovation."


    Meanwhile, Google and Samsung have been close partners over the years. Samsung's smartphone success has come from using Google's Android open-source operating system. There have been reports of tension between the two companies, but both are reliant on each other to keep their mobile momentum going. It's likely that many of the patents involved in the cross-licensing deal relate to mobile technology.
    If you think this is over between Samsung and Google you should think again - IoT Samsungs bet is Tizen Google ... their all over the place with Android and still reliant on many underpinnings - especially in the car space; as we all clearly know, ahem QNX !
    06-19-15 09:31 PM
  20. Supa_Fly1's Avatar
    Back on topic ... sorry everyone.
    06-19-15 09:32 PM
  21. AnimalPak200's Avatar
    Based on this discussion, it's a little troubling how much (apparently entirely discretionary) leverage Google has in an entire industry.

    I think it's time to concede that they won, and to turn their framework into a universal infrastructure. Basically turning it into the equivalent of a toll road.

    Posted via CB10
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    06-19-15 09:53 PM
  22. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    You just harshed my buzz.
    06-19-15 10:00 PM
  23. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Oh I agree in many respects. I personally believe their best option - if they're exploring the Android route - is to partner with Samsung (if they're game). A Samsung branded Android device with BlackBerry elements (Hub, touch capacitive pkb and actions/shortcuts, etc.) is ideal. Samsung has positive brand recognition and great carrier / retail placement.

    The runtime doesn't seem to be helping BB10 adoption in any event. If the plan is to keep BB10 alive, better to just dump it and save the resources and money and spend it on growing the native platform and/or redirecting it to software services.
    Runtime helps with the sale of all touch / Passport models. Can't help it that BlackBerry has given up on the all touch consumer market and is probably losing 50% of potential buyers as a result.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    06-19-15 10:19 PM
  24. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    Runtime helps with the sale of all touch / Passport models. Can't help it that BlackBerry has given up on the all touch consumer market and is probably losing 50% of potential buyers as a result.
    The times they are a changin', lol.

    Given that sales are declining 50% of that market doesn't mean anything. They have to adapt to the realities on the ground or die. An all touch BlackBerry isn't going to change anything imho.
    06-19-15 10:47 PM
  25. StephanieMaks's Avatar
    No, BlackBerry cannot easily and simply chuck out the runtime in a small OS update 10.3.3. This is redacting a major feature that existing users are expecting and would break significant users operations and usability. This would be class action lawsuit worthy. Anyone who suggests this has very little experience, IMO.
    Didn't Sony do this? I might be misremembering this but didn't they advertise one of their PlayStations as being capable of being reformatted to run Linux, then in a later software update they removed that capability?

    I remember some people being angered because they were literally removing an advertised feature by updating it away...

    Yeah, here it is - Sony to Remove Linux Functionality From PlayStation 3

    So it's not unprecidented.

    On the other hand, for OHA compliance, maybe BlackBerry wouldn't have to remove the runtime from already-sold phones. Maybe they'd just have to remove it from new sales going forward. That seems a lot more reasonable at least.
    06-20-15 08:04 AM
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