02-10-16 05:00 PM
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  1. app_Developer's Avatar
    WebOS was ahead of its time and a lot like what we use in modern mobile devices. If BlackBerry had used it and launched it at the same time as the iPhone, history would be a little different for sure.
    Plus webOS was built on Linux, which would have made adoption of new chipsets easier/quicker/cheaper as well.

    Anyway, I still think they have a shot with Android now.


    Sent from my iPhone 6S using Tapatalk
    Mecca EL likes this.
    10-05-15 11:41 AM
  2. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if BB was actually successful in acquiring Palm/WebOS.

    Would things have been different? Was WebOS destined to fail as well or did HP just kill it.
    We wouldn't have wasted about 7 billion dollars on BB10 and might have tweaked WebOS enough to make it secure within 12 months and would have had a good number of developers on-board already.... So a launch in 2011 would have been entirely possible and it would have given BlackBerry a much better shot at a success.

    But I don't think the company had the competitive mindset needed in today's market. So I doubt it would have made a difference.

    Palm is sadly still a example that BBRY shareholders should consider.... It was estimated that Palm has about $3 Billion dollars worth of patents, yet HP only paid about $1.2 Billion for Palm. With what happened to Motorola and Nokia... a "buyer" is going to only pay what they think BlackBerry is worth, not what the shareholders think it should be worth.
    I like my Treo better than my first BlackBerry... it was just the battery life (push email) that made the BlackBerry more usable. But I couldn't understand not having a stylus or touchscreen....
    sentimentGX4 and techvisor like this.
    10-05-15 11:44 AM
  3. dwisetyoaji's Avatar
    Marketing.
    I ALWAYS see Samsung's adds either when watching YouTube or on TV commercials.

    Posted via CB10
    Stewartj1 likes this.
    10-05-15 11:53 AM
  4. boody78's Avatar
    Nope. #1 reason = STORM.

    I put it to everyone that the BlackBerry storm1 was so bad and came out at the same time as the then "ok" iphone, it literally sealed BlackBerry's fate. Everybody wanted a touch screen phone. I it was bleeding edge. Some got the storm, some got the iphone. Everybody who got the storm absolutely hated it. I believe that Apple owes the success of the iphone to BlackBerry. It wouldn't have mattered what BlackBerry did after that NO ONE would even give a thought to buying a BlackBerry all touch phone after that. I was one of the few who upgraded to the storm2. That was a amazing phone, but everyone would always say "omg you still have a storm, that was the worst phone I ever had!" and I had to explain it was not the same phone, to which they would reply "yeah right, BlackBerry sucks my iphone's...."

    Posted via CB10
    nomi1978 and SonyainTx like this.
    10-05-15 12:44 PM
  5. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Nope. #1 reason = STORM.

    I put it to everyone that the BlackBerry storm1 was so bad and came out at the same time as the then "ok" iphone, it literally sealed BlackBerry's fate. Everybody wanted a touch screen phone. I it was bleeding edge. Some got the storm, some got the iphone. Everybody who got the storm absolutely hated it. I believe that Apple owes the success of the iphone to BlackBerry. It wouldn't have mattered what BlackBerry did after that NO ONE would even give a thought to buying a BlackBerry all touch phone after that. I was one of the few who upgraded to the storm2. That was a amazing phone, but everyone would always say "omg you still have a storm, that was the worst phone I ever had!" and I had to explain it was not the same phone, to which they would reply "yeah right, BlackBerry sucks my iphone's...."

    Posted via CB10
    But it wasn't just that one device...

    STORM
    PlayBook
    Z10 (BB10 in general)

    There is a "history" of releasing products that just aren't ready for the public yet... corporate culture.
    10-05-15 01:42 PM
  6. ZeBB45's Avatar
    I've just listened to the berryflow podcast , and they basically glossed over the concept of BB10 biting the dust. So the community has played it's part, by not being vocal about blackberries faults in the early days has given waterloo the feeling of "all is well"

    Q10 - 10.3.2.2639/SR .2474  < α∂∂ιт > 
    10-05-15 01:47 PM
  7. vladi's Avatar
    They missed the biggest one. It was LATE. At leat 2 years late.

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    You are never late to the party. That's what big boys want you to believe so you don't even try. You can be only late to the party if you are the second one to enter the party as Batman and even then there is a chance your costume is cooler than the one original guy has.

    Just take a look at the Android when it showed up and compare it to iOS, Symbian or Palm. It was a joke. So no being late to the party dont mean squat unless you are playing competitors game.

    Sole reason why BB10 failed was lack of convincing people to try it and use it. They failed to make it hip and matter. In other words there was not enough push (read marketing dollars) to make it matter.
    Bratza likes this.
    10-05-15 02:40 PM
  8. Genghis2k3's Avatar
    Flag on the play! Excessive use of logic, reason, and facts in a forum post! @bbnivende
    grumpyaeroguy likes this.
    10-05-15 08:24 PM
  9. andy957's Avatar
    Also I think part of their problem has always been management. Thorsten was as lackluster as a moldy washcloth, Chen can barely speak English and doesn't even use BBs (or at least has no knowledge of how they work). So much talk of takeovers that didn't happen (PremWatsa, Samsung rumors, etc.) that people just started laughing. I remember all the pre-release excitement over BB10 but it faded fast after the Z10 failure.

    Not related to BB10 failure, but BB failure in general, is their decision-making on hardware specs and features. Why, for example, did the 9900, an otherwise gorgeous phone for the time, not have an auto-focus camera? The cameras on BBs have always been part of their Achilles heel, and as we all know, smartphones are no longer really used for making calls, they're point-and-shoot cameras. But I digress.

    Anyway I am still a BB fan through and through. I personally think BB10 is a great OS and find myself swiping and looking for the hub when on any other platform.
    10-05-15 08:35 PM
  10. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Also I think part of their problem has always been management. Thorsten was as lackluster as a moldy washcloth, Chen can barely speak English and doesn't even use BBs (or at least has no knowledge of how they work). So much talk of takeovers that didn't happen (PremWatsa, Samsung rumors, etc.) that people just started laughing. I remember all the pre-release excitement over BB10 but it faded fast after the Z10 failure.

    Not related to BB10 failure, but BB failure in general, is their decision-making on hardware specs and features. Why, for example, did the 9900, an otherwise gorgeous phone for the time, not have an auto-focus camera? The cameras on BBs have always been part of their Achilles heel, and as we all know, smartphones are no longer really used for making calls, they're point-and-shoot cameras. But I digress.

    Anyway I am still a BB fan through and through. I personally think BB10 is a great OS and find myself swiping and looking for the hub when on any other platform.
    You have wonder sometimes if no one at BlackBerry is looking at how different sectors of the market are using their smartphones?

    If they had put a truly great camera on the Z10 (or better released the Z30 with a better camera at launch), and if the had done whatever it took to get just Instagram on board... that alone might have been enough (well maybe Candy Crush too) for a much higher percentage of users to create a sustainable platform with slow but steady growth. Which would have brought more developers....

    Does sound like the PRIV is going to have a very good camera... along with all the apps. But now BlackBerry isn't a platform, they are just another Android OEM and their opportunity for profit is going to be very slim.
    10-06-15 08:12 AM
  11. trsbbs's Avatar
    Mike L started it all off on the wrong foot with the Playbook. Then the terrible Z10 launch with Verizon. All those rebooting returned phones. The apps didnt happen due to bad sales, due to the software not being ready at launch.
    10-06-15 08:25 AM
  12. Bbnivende's Avatar
    You have wonder sometimes if no one at BlackBerry is looking at how different sectors of the market are using their smartphones?

    If they had put a truly great camera on the Z10 (or better released the Z30 with a better camera at launch), and if the had done whatever it took to get just Instagram on board... that alone might have been enough (well maybe Candy Crush too) for a much higher percentage of users to create a sustainable platform with slow but steady growth. Which would have brought more developers....

    Does sound like the PRIV is going to have a very good camera... along with all the apps. But now BlackBerry isn't a platform, they are just another Android OEM and their opportunity for profit is going to be very slim.
    Profits maybe slim but better than losses which they will continue to have on BB10.

    Posted via CB10
    10-06-15 09:02 AM
  13. cgk's Avatar

    Palm is sadly still a example that BBRY shareholders should consider.... It was estimated that Palm has about $3 Billion dollars worth of patents, yet HP only paid about $1.2 Billion for Palm.
    Part of the reason for the gap was that a lot of the analysts and media commentator completely missed that when Palm went through a stage of seperating into two seperate companies most of the patents were sold on another company (my mind makes me think it's name begins with A) - and all Palm was actually left with was a perpetual use license, they couldn't re license them.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    10-06-15 09:05 AM
  14. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Profits maybe slim but better than losses which they will continue to have on BB10.

    Posted via CB10
    I agree... the new "hardware division" that Chen has created has removed a lot of the risks and cost associated with how a true manufacture operates.

    Sadly it's like a small Italian restaurant that we use to go to. The owner/chief died and his son took over.... quality went down and prices went up. Found out later that he was going to a Restaurant Supply company and buying all the dishes precooked and frozen. The Microwave was about the only thing he was using... I'm sure there was some "waste" when you make the things fresh everyday, and a lot for work and prep is involved. So there would be a "risk" if sales that day were slower than expected.... precooked made sense in that regard. But ultimately the sons cost cutting lead to a product that wasn't as good as the original, and wasn't any better than an Olive Garden or other big Italian chain - who's prices were actually lower than this once premium Italian restaurant.
    10-06-15 09:34 AM
  15. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I agree... the new "hardware division" that Chen has created has removed a lot of the risks and cost associated with how a true manufacture operates.

    Sadly it's like a small Italian restaurant that we use to go to. The owner/chief died and his son took over.... quality went down and prices went up. Found out later that he was going to a Restaurant Supply company and buying all the dishes precooked and frozen. The Microwave was about the only thing he was using... I'm sure there was some "waste" when you make the things fresh everyday, and a lot for work and prep is involved. So there would be a "risk" if sales that day were slower than expected.... precooked made sense in that regard. But ultimately the sons cost cutting lead to a product that wasn't as good as the original, and wasn't any better than an Olive Garden or other big Italian chain - who's prices were actually lower than this once premium Italian restaurant.
    Good analogy. I would say that compared to Olive Garden, BlackBerry is a food truck.

    Under the new PRIV menu you can only get pasta if you order pork chops too.

    Posted via CB10
    10-06-15 11:09 AM
  16. Doggerz's Avatar
    Boy oh boy... the logical leaps made in this one are pretty strong.

    Let's see, the US government still remains one of BlackBerry's biggest customers - surely if they wanted to kill them off, they'd start by not giving them money?

    But really, the best part of this is that you seem to believe that BlackBerry would never cooperate with the NSA. The company is based in a Five Eyes country and has a history of cooperating with far less powerful governments. They talk a strong game about privacy but have done very little to defend it in practice:

    • They've never publicly spoken out against mass surveillance, they've publicly refused to release a transparency report, and they have never deployed end-to-end encryption by default for regular consumers.
    • They've always had the ability to decrypt BIS and BBM messages in transit, and have even made agreements with some governments to do exactly that. The only effort they've made to address this is a $38/year BBM Protected subscription that is aimed primarily at enterprise customers - in other words, something most consumers will never use.
    • They don't have a bug bounty program to encourage white hat hackers to catch vulnerabilities that, inevitably, they have not - this is especially important when your userbase is so small.
    • The BB10 browser still supports weak RC4 cipher suites for TLS, and will load unencrypted content on encrypted webpages even before the user accepts the "Show all" prompt.
    • They have very little documentation on security practices within Password Keeper, which is especially troubling after the recent discovery of what appears to be an escrow key for Password Keeper databases.
    • Most of their own websites do not support TLS, opening up the door to surveillance and MITM attacks.
    • And BB10 lacks support for several popular VPN protocols, including the highly-regarded OpenVPN.


    They make some great enterprise products, but for the average consumer? Their privacy practices are no better than the competition, and in some ways worse - many of the points I brought up are things Apple, Google, and Microsoft have all addressed in their own products. You don't have to show up in a PRISM slide to do the NSA a favour, you just need to be complacent about inadequate technology.
    Summer of 2014 I was banned from Crackberry for citing an article that says the things you just said.

    People don't like hearing that BlackBerry cooperates with governments and gives access to BIS and BBM. And further more we have no idea of they'd give access to BES. I'm betting yes they would.

    Great post, I think you said it better than the article I quoted last year.

    Z30STA100-5 / 10.3.2.2789 / T-Mobile USA
    techvisor likes this.
    10-06-15 11:19 AM
  17. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Good analogy. I would say that compared to Olive Garden, BlackBerry is a food truck.

    Under the new PRIV menu you can only get pasta if you order pork chops too.

    Posted via CB10
    I don't know... some of these Food Trucks are down right gourmet these days....and expensive.
    10-06-15 11:57 AM
  18. LazyEvul's Avatar
    Summer of 2014 I was banned from Crackberry for citing an article that says the things you just said.

    People don't like hearing that BlackBerry cooperates with governments and gives access to BIS and BBM. And further more we have no idea of they'd give access to BES. I'm betting yes they would.

    Great post, I think you said it better than the article I quoted last year.

    Z30STA100-5 / 10.3.2.2789 / T-Mobile USA
    I'm not quite so skeptical about BES. As an end-to-end solution, from a technical standpoint it's pretty easy to shrug and tell the government you've got nothing - because unless you've planted a backdoor, you don't. Of course, we have seen some companies cut backdoor deals with the NSA in the past, but the recent ban of BES in Pakistan seems to suggest that BlackBerry isn't open to such an arrangement.

    It's tough to know with certainty of course, but at the very least, I'd say I have more confidence in BlackBerry's enterprise products than their consumer offerings. Their consumer products simply aren't built in a way that suggests a significant regard for privacy. I can only hope this'll change with the launch of the Priv, given the marketing angle they've taken, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
    Doggerz likes this.
    10-06-15 04:39 PM
  19. sentimentGX4's Avatar
    . With what happened to Motorola and Nokia... a "buyer" is going to only pay what they think BlackBerry is worth, not what the shareholders think it should be worth.
    Motorola and Nokia's handset division both sold for much more than the entire BBRY is currently worth. Motorola Mobility was sold for $12.5 billion and just Nokia's handset division was sold for $7.2 billion. BBRY has a market capitalization of $3.6 billion.
    10-06-15 06:13 PM
  20. app_Developer's Avatar
    Motorola and Nokia's handset division both sold for much more than the entire BBRY is currently worth. Motorola Mobility was sold for $12.5 billion and just Nokia's handset division was sold for $7.2 billion. BBRY has a market capitalization of $3.6 billion.
    And how did those numbers work out for the two buyers?
    10-06-15 06:30 PM
  21. Doggerz's Avatar
    I'm not quite so skeptical about BES. As an end-to-end solution, from a technical standpoint it's pretty easy to shrug and tell the government you've got nothing - because unless you've planted a backdoor, you don't. Of course, we have seen some companies cut backdoor deals with the NSA in the past, but the recent ban of BES in Pakistan seems to suggest that BlackBerry isn't open to such an arrangement.

    It's tough to know with certainty of course, but at the very least, I'd say I have more confidence in BlackBerry's enterprise products than their consumer offerings. Their consumer products simply aren't built in a way that suggests a significant regard for privacy. I can only hope this'll change with the launch of the Priv, given the marketing angle they've taken, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
    I'm sure it's secure from most hackers. But doubt anything is secure from the NSA. So as long as you start with that as a given then you can probably say it's safe. But BlackBerry caved very quickly to some other governments who just said give us the backdoor or you can't sell BlackBerry here anymore. Even threatened to confiscate phones on entry to their countries. That speaks well of BlackBerry security but also shows how little it takes to get them to compromise.

    Z30STA100-5 / 10.3.2.2789 / T-Mobile USA
    Bbnivende likes this.
    10-06-15 08:52 PM
  22. matt4pack's Avatar
    But it wasn't just that one device...

    STORM
    PlayBook
    Z10 (BB10 in general)

    There is a "history" of releasing products that just aren't ready for the public yet... corporate culture.
    Everyone releases products that aren't ready. The original ipad was a joke that even apple quickly stopped supporting. I've never even seen one in public.

    Apple just has the cult behind them that allows them to get away with it and like ms and google they are goliaths can keep subpar products going until they get decent. Android was utter crap when it was first released up until recently.

    It's sad though that superior os's like webos and bb10 can't compete when the other os's have these giants behind them.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by matt4pack; 10-06-15 at 10:01 PM.
    10-06-15 09:19 PM
  23. LazyEvul's Avatar
    I'm sure it's secure from most hackers. But doubt anything is secure from the NSA.
    You'd be surprised. Solid encryption works wonders, which is why we've recently seen a push for encryption backdoors from the FBI and NSA. The trouble is securely integrating the technology into the mainstream. Very few people will give up convenience to use something like PGP.

    So as long as you start with that as a given then you can probably say it's safe. But BlackBerry caved very quickly to some other governments who just said give us the backdoor or you can't sell BlackBerry here anymore. Even threatened to confiscate phones on entry to their countries. That speaks well of BlackBerry security but also shows how little it takes to get them to compromise.

    Z30STA100-5 / 10.3.2.2789 / T-Mobile USA
    That is a fair point, and I'd add that their refusal to release a transparency report makes it seem as if they're more willing to play ball with governments than other manufacturers. The trouble is that this is all just speculation at this point. There's not much way to know about backdoors with certainty, and by the time you do, it's usually too late.
    Doggerz likes this.
    10-06-15 09:45 PM
  24. Prem WatsApp's Avatar
    You'd be surprised. Solid encryption works wonders, which is why we've recently seen a push for encryption backdoors from the FBI and NSA. The trouble is securely integrating the technology into the mainstream. Very few people will give up convenience to use something like PGP.



    That is a fair point, and I'd add that their refusal to release a transparency report makes it seem as if they're more willing to play ball with governments than other manufacturers. The trouble is that this is all just speculation at this point. There's not much way to know about backdoors with certainty, and by the time you do, it's usually too late.
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ion.html?_r=1&

    http://www.salon.com/2014/11/16/goog...ecurity_state/

    http://blog.cryptographyengineering....n-nsa.html?m=1

    They've gone and got very far already... some of the points in these articles are downright scary, if you look at it... :-)

      Ahoy, Privateers...! :-)  
    Doggerz likes this.
    10-07-15 06:04 AM
  25. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Everyone releases products that aren't ready. The original ipad was a joke that even apple quickly stopped supporting. I've never even seen one in public.

    Apple just has the cult behind them that allows them to get away with it and like ms and google they are goliaths can keep subpar products going until they get decent. Android was utter crap when it was first released up until recently.

    It's sad though that superior os's like webos and bb10 can't compete when the other os's have these giants behind them.

    Posted via CB10
    And what other tablet like device was on the market when the original iPad was release?? You can release a beta device into the market... when there is no market. But you can't release a beta device like the Z10 into a mature market full of more stable and feature rich products.

    I agree it's hard to compete with giants... might have been smarter to "compete" with them back when BlackBerry was the giant. WebOS and BB10 both had some early problems with the software, both were paired with less than stellar hardware in the beginning, and both were only parts of the platform puzzle.

    It is hard to compete with companies that KNOW what they are doing......

    Even Chen talking about closing hardware when he first came on board, then not too long ago saying he wasn't emotional about hardware, and now I'll give it nine months and see... when talking about the PRIV's future. He just doesn't know how to SELL a product... you have to at least put on a "front" that you are 100% behind your products!
    10-07-15 07:52 AM
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