02-14-15 11:36 PM
134 ... 23456
tools
  1. eyesopen1111's Avatar
    I think the keyboard is one of the few obvious advantages that a BB10 device offers. If you are going to be tapping on glass anyway, why not just get an Android or iOS device.
    I think it is selling BlackBerry short to suggest that the company can only be competitive with models that have a physical keyboard gimmick--after all, there are a lot of Z-series BB10 devices out there, too. Indeed, some of the polls and posts on this forum seem to indicate that more Z-series BB10 devices have been sold than PKB devices have, but if anyone has good numbers, I'd like to know.

    This controversy is why I am eager to learn the sales results of the Passport and Classic. If BlackBerry has the undisputed best PKB phones in the market (it does) and still can only sell a few of them, then perhaps the point will finally be settled that the market has moved past PKB phones. So yes, if it turns out this way, there's no reason to stop making a very few bucks on PKB phones, but they cannot be the sole or primary focus of BlackBerry's attention, IMHO.

    One ultimate question is whether BlackBerry will stay in the smartphone business if it can only sell a trivially small number of devices, even assuming it can do so profitably. (I personally don't buy that you can profitably produce, market, and support a modern smartphone with low unit sales, but let's pretend you can). Would Chen keep producing them? The effort would steal a lot of focus for little reward, so maybe not. Or maybe so, in order to keep the end to end aspect of the BlackBerry value proposition in place.
    JeepBB likes this.
    02-08-15 05:59 PM
  2. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    I think the keyboard is one of the few obvious advantages that a BB10 device offers. If you are going to be tapping on glass anyway, why not just get an Android or iOS device.
    When 99.99% of the purchasing market are choosing the "tapping on glass" keyboards, I dunno that you could really classify the BB Physical Keyboard as an "obvious advantage".
    eyesopen1111 likes this.
    02-08-15 06:23 PM
  3. ADGrant's Avatar
    I think it is selling BlackBerry short to suggest that the company can only be competitive with models that have a physical keyboard gimmick--after all, there are a lot of Z-series BB10 devices out there, too. Indeed, some of the polls and posts on this forum seem to indicate that more Z-series BB10 devices have been sold than PKB devices have, but if anyone has good numbers, I'd like to know.

    This controversy is why I am eager to learn the sales results of the Passport and Classic. If BlackBerry has the undisputed best PKB phones in the market (it does) and still can only sell a few of them, then perhaps the point will finally be settled that the market has moved past PKB phones. So yes, if it turns out this way, there's no reason to stop making a very few bucks on PKB phones, but they cannot be the sole or primary focus of BlackBerry's attention, IMHO.

    One ultimate question is whether BlackBerry will stay in the smartphone business if it can only sell a trivially small number of devices, even assuming it can do so profitably. (I personally don't buy that you can profitably produce, market, and support a modern smartphone with low unit sales, but let's pretend you can). Would Chen keep producing them? The effort would steal a lot of focus for little reward, so maybe not. Or maybe so, in order to keep the end to end aspect of the BlackBerry value proposition in place.
    I am not sure BB can be competitive even with PKB phones. I am sure it can't be without them. They may have fallen out of favor in the consumer market but among those looking for "tools not toys" (Corporate IT, Captains of Industry), they are still very popular. I see plenty of 9900s every day in the New York City area, I almost never see Z10s. I have never seen a Z30. This site is not representative of the average BB user who gets his or her device from an employer.

    Not sure if Chen will give us a breakdown of sales with the next set of results. The information is unlikely to come from a third party, Kantar isn't even bothering to report total BB sales anymore. I too wonder how long hardware sales can continue. There are ways of maintaining an end to end value proposition without them.
    JeepBB likes this.
    02-08-15 07:14 PM
  4. ADGrant's Avatar
    When 99.99% of the purchasing market are choosing the "tapping on glass" keyboards, I dunno that you could really classify the BB Physical Keyboard as an "obvious advantage".
    Goldman Sachs Folks Still Using BlackBerry At Davos - Business Insider

    "A lot of people here are conspicuously carrying two phones: an iPhone and a BlackBerry.

    Davos may be the last remaining place on earth in which BlackBerry still has massive market share. UK Chancellor George Osborne uses a BlackBerry, too — he walked right by me, talking on it. (Here's a picture of him, but he hid his phone as I took my shot.)

    In an odd way, rocking the iPhone-BlackBerry combo is a way to send a huge signal about your status: Yes, you have the expensive new phone from Apple that everyone wants. But you're so busy, so important, that you also need a phone with a real keyboard."


    Read more: Goldman Sachs Folks Still Using BlackBerry At Davos - Business Insider
    02-08-15 07:16 PM
  5. KR2013's Avatar
    I am not sure BB can be competitive even with PKB phones. I am sure it can't be without them. They may have fallen out of favor in the consumer market but among those looking for "tools not toys" (Corporate IT, Captains of Industry), they are still very popular. I see plenty of 9900s every day in the New York City area, I almost never see Z10s. I have never seen a Z30. This site is not representative of the average BB user who gets his or her device from an employer.
    I wonder how many of those 9900 users carry them because their companies are still on the old BES and have not adopted to the new one? That certainly seems to be the case with the people in my company, which is a large international organization. The funny thing is, every single person with 9900 in my company that I have talked to, had not even heard of the BB10 devices! So, just because they use 9900's doesn't necessarily mean they love PKB. It just means that's what their company issues to them. Most also carry another phone (iPhone, Galaxy, or...) for personal use.

    Additionally, although my company issues legacy BB phones to people, they also offers BYOD for those who don't get issued a company phone. But, interestingly, you cannot bring your own legacy or BB10 BlackBerry device. They only support iPhones and Androids. So, I use a Nexus 5 to get company email, and bunch of BB10 devices for my personal use. That's pretty sad, if you ask me!
    02-08-15 08:14 PM
  6. ADGrant's Avatar
    I wonder how many of those 9900 users carry them because their companies are still on the old BES and have not adopted to the new one? That certainly seems to be the case with the people in my company, which is a large international organization. The funny thing is, every single person with 9900 in my company that I have talked to, had not even heard of the BB10 devices! So, just because they use 9900's doesn't necessarily mean they love PKB. It just means that's what their company issues to them. Most also carry another phone (iPhone, Galaxy, or...) for personal use.

    Additionally, although my company issues legacy BB phones to people, they also offers BYOD for those who don't get issued a company phone. But, interestingly, you cannot bring your own legacy or BB10 BlackBerry device. They only support iPhones and Androids. So, I use a Nexus 5 to get company email, and bunch of BB10 devices for my personal use. That's pretty sad, if you ask me!
    In my company, anyone that gets issued a corporate device gets a BB OS7 device. They are free to BYOD though and apparently we even support BB10 as a BYOD device (via BES 10 or 12 I assume)
    02-08-15 08:28 PM
  7. anon(55900)'s Avatar
    I agree with Chen, Google has incrementally improved Android and hasn't created anything new instantly. They've bought up some existing companies, not unlike what Microsoft did or does, then incorporates them into Android. What Android has done is little by little do their own Apps that do indeed compete with independents all in order to encapsulate the user deeper into an all Google/Android world! On Android I felt like every App that I loaded and every Google Android function or App that I used, that I used being raped of all my meta data, even premium Apps will take your contacts and other personal files.
    02-08-15 08:29 PM
  8. Kurdis Blough's Avatar
    I agree with Chen, Google has incrementally improved Android and hasn't created anything new instantly. They've bought up some existing companies, not unlike what Microsoft did or does, then incorporates them into Android. What Android has done is little by little do their own Apps that do indeed compete with independents all in order to encapsulate the user deeper into an all Google/Android world! On Android I felt like every App that I loaded and every Google Android function or App that I used, that I used being raped of all my meta data, even premium Apps will take your contacts and other personal files.
    Paranoid?

    The permissions that authorize access to contacts are used to enable sharing functions. Sharing functions which I might add Android excels at.

    But to be honest if it makes users uncomfortable they wouldn't use it. Obviously they don't share this level of paranoia.

    Google sells targeted advertising not user data. Even Microsoft seems to have learned that perpetuating these type of myths is counterproductive. TOS on all platforms is literally identical. BlackBerry would monetize too But it seems they have a hard enough time getting anyone interested in the platform these days.

    !
    pantlesspenguin and mornhavon like this.
    02-08-15 09:17 PM
  9. eyesopen1111's Avatar
    I am not sure BB can be competitive even with PKB phones. I am sure it can't be without them. They may have fallen out of favor in the consumer market but among those looking for "tools not toys" (Corporate IT, Captains of Industry), they are still very popular. I see plenty of 9900s every day in the New York City area, I almost never see Z10s. I have never seen a Z30. This site is not representative of the average BB user who gets his or her device from an employer.

    Not sure if Chen will give us a breakdown of sales with the next set of results. The information is unlikely to come from a third party, Kantar isn't even bothering to report total BB sales anymore. I too wonder how long hardware sales can continue. There are ways of maintaining an end to end value proposition without them.
    Adding a PKB to a device is not without costs to size, dimensions, weight, and style. Look at the best-selling smartphones today--between marketplace demands for thin and light form factors with large displays, adding in a PKB that so few people want and that is so out of vogue seems counter-productive. BlackBerry simply have never, never released an on-spec flagship all-touch device. BB10 is full-grown enough to see what share of the market it merits given equivalent specs as the competition. It just seems odd that BlackBerry can't whip up something that would attract 1 in every 20 buyers (5% market share).
    02-09-15 02:24 AM
  10. anon(55900)'s Avatar
    Paranoid?

    The permissions that authorize access to contacts are used to enable sharing functions. Sharing functions which I might add Android excels at.

    But to be honest if it makes users uncomfortable they wouldn't use it. Obviously they don't share this level of paranoia.

    Google sells targeted advertising not user data. Even Microsoft seems to have learned that perpetuating these type of myths is counterproductive. TOS on all platforms is literally identical. BlackBerry would monetize too But it seems they have a hard enough time getting anyone interested in the platform these days.

    !
    I contacted several app makers, bigger ones, they take meta data, why would a VPN who your going to use for privacy require access to your contacts, even with a premium account. It's well know that on android app makers make money by selling meta data. I don't fault them for a free app and it's clear exactly what is this do called meta data will be. But the names, phone numbers and address collection does make me uncomfortable.
    02-09-15 05:02 AM
  11. ADGrant's Avatar
    Adding a PKB to a device is not without costs to size, dimensions, weight, and style. Look at the best-selling smartphones today--between marketplace demands for thin and light form factors with large displays, adding in a PKB that so few people want and that is so out of vogue seems counter-productive. BlackBerry simply have never, never released an on-spec flagship all-touch device. BB10 is full-grown enough to see what share of the market it merits given equivalent specs as the competition. It just seems odd that BlackBerry can't whip up something that would attract 1 in every 20 buyers (5% market share).
    Windows Phone is all touch. Nokia had premium models. WP market share in the US is now 3%. App developer support is poor.
    02-09-15 06:52 AM
  12. Bfalcon1's Avatar
    I try to ignore these types of articles.

    Posted via CB10
    02-09-15 07:02 AM
  13. birdman_38's Avatar
    I too wonder how long hardware sales can continue. There are ways of maintaining an end to end value proposition without them.
    Such as?
    02-09-15 07:39 AM
  14. ubizmo's Avatar
    Windows Phone is all touch. Nokia had premium models. WP market share in the US is now 3%. App developer support is poor.
    WP is also suffering from no-flagship malaise at the moment. Read the forums in Windows Central and you'll find that's a common complaint. Microsoft is apparently planning a flagship device to be released around the time WP/Windows 10 lands, probably in September. And they've promised that current generation WP 8 devices will get WP 10, not repeating the fiasco of WP 7.5. If WP 10 addresses even half of the most common complaints about WP 8.1, it'll be pretty decent. And I think we can expect a full court press in marketing starting in late summer.

    I agree app developer support in WP is poor, but worldwide market share is at 5% and WP 10 should give it a bump. And at least their native app catalog is growing, albeit slowly. I think if they can get to 10% they'll have enough momentum to see more developer interest.

    I was one who believed that the BB10 Android runtime was a good idea. In a way, I still do, because efforts to build a native app base were simply not working. But the thing I didn't appreciate was that Android compatibility isn't something BlackBerry can really market, due to its hit or miss nature. The true message is: You might find the apps you want in Amazon's app store, and they might work on your BB10 device. There's just no way to run with that.

    I'm very happy with the way my Passport is working for me, but I'm willing to do things that the normal consumer doesn't want to deal with, and I don't see that changing; if anything, it'll get worse.
    02-09-15 08:05 AM
  15. asherN's Avatar
    BlackBerry hasn't innovated. That's a reality. Certainly not the way the competition has. Passport isn't really innovative. It's another keyboard phone. Just because the keyboard is gesture sensitive doesn't make it innovative. In fact BlackBerry's stubborn refusal to accept that touch is what people want shows just how out of touch they are.

     Posted using my Z30 via CB10 
    I like bashing BB as much as the next guy and think the PP is one ugly SOB. But the keyboard is innovative. Innovation is not always about inventions, it's mostly about taking an existing concept and making it different or appealing.
    02-09-15 10:24 AM
  16. ADGrant's Avatar
    Such as?
    They can emulate their competitors Good & Microsoft. Provide a secure email/contacts BES12 client for iOS & Android. Improve BBM for iOS & Android so it is at least as good as the BB10 version.
    02-09-15 10:45 AM
  17. ADGrant's Avatar
    WP is also suffering from no-flagship malaise at the moment. Read the forums in Windows Central and you'll find that's a common complaint. Microsoft is apparently planning a flagship device to be released around the time WP/Windows 10 lands, probably in September. And they've promised that current generation WP 8 devices will get WP 10, not repeating the fiasco of WP 7.5. If WP 10 addresses even half of the most common complaints about WP 8.1, it'll be pretty decent. And I think we can expect a full court press in marketing starting in late summer.

    I agree app developer support in WP is poor, but worldwide market share is at 5% and WP 10 should give it a bump. And at least their native app catalog is growing, albeit slowly. I think if they can get to 10% they'll have enough momentum to see more developer interest.
    The "no-flagship" issue is probably the result of a "low flagship sales" issue. Any flagship device will compete head on with the iPhone and the latest Galaxy device. It will almost certainly loose.

    In BB's case they are not even marketing to consumers in the US at least so who is going to buy a flagship all touch device?
    02-09-15 10:49 AM
  18. ADGrant's Avatar
    Adding a PKB to a device is not without costs to size, dimensions, weight, and style. Look at the best-selling smartphones today--between marketplace demands for thin and light form factors with large displays, adding in a PKB that so few people want and that is so out of vogue seems counter-productive. BlackBerry simply have never, never released an on-spec flagship all-touch device. BB10 is full-grown enough to see what share of the market it merits given equivalent specs as the competition. It just seems odd that BlackBerry can't whip up something that would attract 1 in every 20 buyers (5% market share).
    The best selling smart phones today run either iOS or Google's official version of Android. Unlike Windows BB has almost no carrier support in the US (AT&T appears to be the only US carrier selling the passport an even then only to business customers). I am fairly certain Windows Phone has never achieved a 5% market share in the US.
    02-09-15 10:55 AM
  19. eyesopen1111's Avatar
    The best selling smart phones today run either iOS or Google's official version of Android. Unlike Windows BB has almost no carrier support in the US (AT&T appears to be the only US carrier selling the passport an even then only to business customers). I am fairly certain Windows Phone has never achieved a 5% market share in the US.
    BlackBerry's carrier relations have fluctuated since the launch of BB10, but mostly it's been downhill. Before BlackBerry went to carrier exclusive deals, first with Verizon getting exclusive US rights to the Z30 and now with AT&T getting the same with the Passport, BlackBerry had far better access to the market with the launch of the Z10/ Q10 via T-Mobile, plus Verizon, plus AT&T, plus (I think) Sprint. I believe BlackBerry could improve the current state of affairs to past levels, which is connected to the idea that some of the needed future BlackBerry growth might be coming from the consumer side.

    For instance, I got my first BB10 device, a Z10, that I first saw in T-Mobile in an in-store display. If my only option to get that phone were the options available today, the chances of my being a customer would be much, much slimmer. This is one big reason why I don't like the "enterprise focus" idea: it cuts off access to a lot of potential customers (the overwhelming majority, in fact) precisely when BlackBerry needs to broaden its audience. Ultimately, this is what I think it'll take to get BlackBerry where I'd like to see it be: marketing flagship level phones that can win over 1 in 20 buyers in a head to head competition with the other competitors.
    02-09-15 11:57 AM
  20. berry4life99's Avatar
    Getting BlackBerry healthy enough to fight has been the focus lately. It's kind of like Rocky in this way: got older and fatter, got beaten up in the arena for a while. BlackBerry needed to step out of the ring, get back to its roots, trim down and build stamina. Only then would it be possible to be a contender in the dog-eat-dog world of consumer mobile products.

    We don't know what the next step will be. We have no idea how long BlackBerry will have to hang in there to be able to compete in consumers' eyes. What's clear is the predictions of BlackBerry's demise have been exaggerated in the past and it's only profitable to wait and see what happens next.

    Posted via CB10
    02-09-15 04:42 PM
  21. Soulstream's Avatar
    Getting BlackBerry healthy enough to fight has been the focus lately. It's kind of like Rocky in this way: got older and fatter, got beaten up in the arena for a while. BlackBerry needed to step out of the ring, get back to its roots, trim down and build stamina. Only then would it be possible to be a contender in the dog-eat-dog world of consumer mobile products.

    We don't know what the next step will be. We have no idea how long BlackBerry will have to hang in there to be able to compete in consumers' eyes. What's clear is the predictions of BlackBerry's demise have been exaggerated in the past and it's only profitable to wait and see what happens next.

    Posted via CB10
    Yes, Blackberry is doing better as a company. But I think it isn't doing well as a smartphone maker. What I mean is that BB has stabilized by making cuts, selling venues and also some service revenues (BES, QNX), but in terms of hardware sales I haven't yet seen much hope of resurgence.
    02-10-15 03:07 AM
  22. berry4life99's Avatar
    That's fair. I can see your point unfortunately for BlackBerry. It's my experience that only some people get electronic devices because they actually like the device or maker. If it doesn't fall into the realm of mainstream culture most people ignore it anyway. But I have this impossible dream of BlackBerry designing a smartphone that is every inch a BlackBerry, but outclasses everything on the market. Past performance doesn't indicate this, but it's fun to dream about a great underdog story.

    Posted via CB10
    02-10-15 05:59 AM
  23. birdman_38's Avatar
    I have this impossible dream of BlackBerry designing a smartphone that is every inch a BlackBerry, but outclasses everything on the market. Past performance doesn't indicate this, but it's fun to dream about a great underdog story.
    I guess. But that's not the solution for BlackBerry's return to profitability.
    02-10-15 08:21 AM
  24. crazigee's Avatar
    I guess. But that's not the solution for BlackBerry's return to profitability.
    Actually, I think it is the road to a return to profitability. It will finally demonstrate that BlackBerry still has the ability to compete and that they are a growing concern, instead a of a company that slowly dying.

     Posted using my Z30 via CB10 
    eyesopen1111 likes this.
    02-10-15 09:32 AM
  25. Soulstream's Avatar
    That's fair. I can see your point unfortunately for BlackBerry. It's my experience that only some people get electronic devices because they actually like the device or maker. If it doesn't fall into the realm of mainstream culture most people ignore it anyway. But I have this impossible dream of BlackBerry designing a smartphone that is every inch a BlackBerry, but outclasses everything on the market. Past performance doesn't indicate this, but it's fun to dream about a great underdog story.

    Posted via CB10
    BB needs profits right now, not a beast phone nobody will buy. If you look at the Windows phone market (about 3-5% market share I think), you will notice that a large part of sold devices are low and mid-end phones. The high-end market for smartphones is dominated by Apple and some Android manufacturers. At this point I think that growth can only happen for mid and low-end devices which BB is very underrepresented (only the z3).
    ADGrant likes this.
    02-10-15 09:40 AM
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