01-06-14 11:47 AM
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  1. DannyAves's Avatar
    But what you do with the so called public infrastructure should be private.

    The

    Z30/Bell - Posted via CB10
    So why do you think you have privacy in public? Next time you walk down the street tell everyone not to look at you because you want privacy.

    The point is if your phone is using the public highway, I'm not sure you are entitled to privacy, you have to actively do something to gain privacy. If you drive down the public highway anyone can look at you. If you want privacy you have to actively do something such as tint your windows so if you want privacy on your phone then encrypt everything or use a system that encrypts everything. If after you have done that the NSA still intrudes then I agree you have a valid argument.
    KoreyTM and kbz1960 like this.
    12-31-13 07:50 AM
  2. KoreyTM's Avatar
    Haha I love when the America gets into a civil flame war on a web forum.

    Seriously though, the best part is any of you ever thought you had privacy or security to begin with. Human kind is a social race and is inherently insecure and non private. keep on segregating that will serve us well in the future.


    Posted via CB10

    In that case, I'd wish governments and companies could be so transparent and "inherently insecure" as the human social race that comprises them.
    12-31-13 09:41 AM
  3. KoreyTM's Avatar
    So why do you think you have privacy in public? Next time you walk down the street tell everyone not to look at you because you want privacy.

    The point is if your phone is using the public highway, I'm not sure you are entitled to privacy, you have to actively do something to gain privacy. If you drive down the public highway anyone can look at you. If you want privacy you have to actively do something such as tint your windows so if you want privacy on your phone then encrypt everything or use a system that encrypts everything. If after you have done that the NSA still intrudes then I agree you have a valid argument.
    I think it's the last part of your statement that rings most truly: It's not so much an outrage that the NSA is scrutinizing data that passes through the public Internet, but rather that they're doing it by getting past the "tinted windows" that were intentionally put there. Many network admins painstakingly put time and effort into securing their systems. To find out that there are blatant security holes that might come pre-installed in these systems is like a slap to the face.
    scrapmetal58, Lumute and blusls like this.
    12-31-13 09:46 AM
  4. Desktoper's Avatar
    ....The NSA policies have done immense damage to the US image, irrespective of how you look at it or on what side of the fence you are....
    Actually, it is the failure of the U.S. political system to properly supervise the NSA that is doing the damage. The NSA policies clearly violate U.S. constitutional guarantees against unwarranted (i.e. no court authorized warrants) acts of search or seizure. Only when the Snowden disclosures revealed that senior political figures themselves might be vulnerable to unwarranted search did those figures start to show any concern.

    The whole point of those constitutional guarantees is to stop security agencies from pursuing rogue campaigns against political adversaries, imaginary plots, or for personal gain or vendettas. The NSA may argue that it needs to do its job, but it can't argue that it needs to do so without oversight. That's one step too far.
    m1kr0, Omnitech and kbz1960 like this.
    12-31-13 09:57 AM
  5. bigbadben10's Avatar
    In a few words. Never ever trust Governments! Left, Right or Middle.

    They are all the same. All in the name of public safety. Yeah right! People are so gullible.

    Posted with my gorgeous Z30
    kbz1960 likes this.
    12-31-13 01:19 PM
  6. anon62607's Avatar
    That article is more about intercepting communications, which can be done with any phone by exploiting any of the several things that a message must pass through to get from one device to another. This document reveals that the NSA can, in fact, plant local spyware onto the device. That's a lot more powerful - it means even your offline data is no longer secure, not to mention that they can turn on your camera and microphone whenever they please.
    The source documents say that they need physical access to the iphone to implant the spyware, which somewhat mitgates the risk. Note that they can do the same with a blackberry or almost any device if they want to (intercepting the device in shipment and modifying the logic board, for example, if needed).

    [edit]:

    I should add that given that "remote jailbreaking" websites existed for iOS 6, it should be obvious that an iPhone can be convinced to modify it's system software remotely. Given the infrastructure that the NSA has, I presume they have something similar - identify a target, intercept a Safari on iPhone request to a given website and redirect it to their own servers and "jailbreak" the iPhone that way.

    You can probably use the availability of these sorts of websites and jailbreaks for various operating systems and mobile platforms as a thermometer for how safe they are. If you are able to modify your phone's operating system (load a leak or whatever), your phone is at risk. If you are able to (ala iOS 6) go to a webpage and jailbreak your phone, it's vulnerable to an NSA level remote exploit.

    [Edit #2]: It's also mentioned that the number of times that the NSA has done this is in the low hundreds. This isn't a mass surveillance issue. You are probably not going to be able to protect yourself from a national level intelligence agency that has taken special interest in you. You should be able to protect yourself from a bored analyst looking through your communications where nothing more than the mass collection systems can be queried.

    [Edit #3]: also it should be pointed out that there aren't many organizations in the world that can outspend the NSA, but Google and Apple both can. If they are legitimately outraged by this (individual engineers within the companies certainly seem to be) they can devote enormous resources to elevating privacy. Unfortunately, it remains easier to hack a system than to build it in a secure way in the first place.
    Last edited by valeuche; 12-31-13 at 02:33 PM.
    12-31-13 02:08 PM
  7. katiepea's Avatar
    Haha I love when the America gets into a civil flame war on a web forum.

    Seriously though, the best part is any of you ever thought you had privacy or security to begin with. Human kind is a social race and is inherently insecure and non private. keep on segregating that will serve us well in the future.


    Posted via CB10
    No, many people didn't think we actually had privacy. What's changed is that now we're basically being told we don't have the right to it either. There's a difference. If you can't prosecute authority for violating the constitution, then it's time to reassess what your circumstance is.
    m1kr0 and Omnitech like this.
    12-31-13 02:39 PM
  8. siddharth's Avatar
    01-01-14 12:43 AM
  9. grover5's Avatar
    I am an American and fully 100% support the NSA. I believe that the NSA is performing ordinary spying operations that practically every major world power conducts. Furthermore, the extent of NSA (and other foreign body) spying has always been publicly known. The recent controversy is merely the result of staunch anti-Americanism.

    But even with the NSA out of the equation, you'd be a fool to think China and Russia and Israel and whatever random lower radar nation isn't already in your smartphone and computer.

    I do hope that others that share my perspective take more of a stand. I know that the South Park creators have conveyed on the show that the proper (American) reaction should have always been indifference; but, the overwhelmingly liberal media continues to portray the US as doing something out of the ordinary or wrong.

    American leftists that extol figures like Snowden or Assange are making the nation a lamb lead to the slaughter. It does not require a major power to overtake a wealthier albeit complacent, pacifist society as demonstrated throughout the history by Mongols and other barbarians.
    Man up. No reason to be scared of everything.

    Posted via CB10
    01-01-14 12:52 AM
  10. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    I am an American and fully 100% support the NSA. I believe that the NSA is performing ordinary spying operations that practically every major world power conducts. Furthermore, the extent of NSA (and other foreign body) spying has always been publicly known. The recent controversy is merely the result of staunch anti-Americanism.

    But even with the NSA out of the equation, you'd be a fool to think China and Russia and Israel and whatever random lower radar nation isn't already in your smartphone and computer.

    I do hope that others that share my perspective take more of a stand. I know that the South Park creators have conveyed on the show that the proper (American) reaction should have always been indifference; but, the overwhelmingly liberal media continues to portray the US as doing something out of the ordinary or wrong.

    American leftists that extol figures like Snowden or Assange are making the nation a lamb lead to the slaughter. It does not require a major power to overtake a wealthier albeit complacent, pacifist society as demonstrated throughout the history by Mongols and other barbarians.
    These god damn libs want commies to take over Merica!!!( *cough *choke *graspingforair )Damn sorry about that guys... gota keep my American exceptionalism in check.

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.1925
    01-01-14 01:06 AM
  11. southlander's Avatar
    Except that the definition of the Internet is PUBLIC infrastructure, not private.
    Perhaps the infrastructure itself. But certainly not the innards of every device that utilizes it. The roads are public. But my vehicle is not subject to arbitrary spying without probable cause.

    Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.1925
    01-01-14 01:22 AM
  12. DannyAves's Avatar
    Perhaps the infrastructure itself. But certainly not the innards of every device that utilizes it. The roads are public. But my vehicle is not subject to arbitrary spying without probable cause.

    Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.1925
    Very true, but who owns the airspace where your signals travel? The carrier owns the spectrum but do they own the airspace or is that public?
    01-01-14 07:29 AM
  13. rupam95's Avatar
    The NSA already hacked into iPhones, Windows phones, Androids, and yes, BlackBerry too!
    kbz1960 likes this.
    01-01-14 10:48 AM
  14. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    The NSA already hacked into iPhones, Windows phones, Androids, and yes, BlackBerry too! The only ones I believe they haven't hacked into are Huawei phones.
    Huh.. haha. Trust me Huawei phones they've hacked into....

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.1925
    01-01-14 10:51 AM
  15. Jerale Hoard's Avatar
    BlackBerry has already told us plenty of times and I quote "Our public statements and principles have long underscored that there is no 'back door' pipeline to our platform." There are other ways the NSA goes about "exploiting" the BlackBerry but according to some other files I've found the NSA has tools for setting up false wifi setups and going about performing a sort of "social engineering" techniques called "evil twin phishing" and that can also intercept SMS messages via mid-air but according to these files below there's no proof of BlackBerry having a "backdoor" which means that BlackBerry is still stands as the most secured platform and that BlackBerry wasn't lying.

    http://cryptome.org/2013/12/nsa-ant-handys.pdf

    Posted via CB10
    donmateo likes this.
    01-01-14 09:02 PM
  16. tchocky77's Avatar
    These god damn libs want commies to take over Merica!!!( *cough *choke *graspingforair )Damn sorry about that guys... gota keep my American exceptionalism in check.

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.1925
    No one's impressed with "wit" that needs low-hanging fruit to display itself.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using CB Forums mobile app
    01-02-14 12:34 AM
  17. lnichols's Avatar
    What I find extremely amusing is how everyone from another country acting appalled by these revelations. News to everyone: All countries try to do this and have NSA like organizations, and they are looking over these documents now and trying to reverse engineer how this was done. India is so bad at they just try to shut down BlackBerry servers ;-). But if you are some smug person from another country talking how evil the US or the NSA is, you have the same thing being attempted to be done to you, and just hope that it isn't some country where they use this info to finally make it work and persecute you for something that they might intercept.

    Posted via CB10
    kbz1960 likes this.
    01-02-14 07:46 AM
  18. siddharth's Avatar
    You are right about India threatening to shutting down blackberry servers! The government wanted access to BBM and BES, lot of media coverage. But nothing happened, I guess. I was using my torch 9810 on BIS that time. There was NO service outage at all.

    Maybe they got access or maybe corruption prevailed who knows.

    But you are right about the existence of NSA like organisation in almost all countries. Here in India I think the operators are forced to open their network/user logs to security agencies.

    Posted via Black ZeD on 10.2.1.1925
    01-02-14 01:02 PM
  19. systemvolker's Avatar
    If you're not involved in terrorizing groups, then nsa is not going to haunt you. They're doing this for those guys because they are hiding in public... hiding behind innocent faces.

    If

    I'm wrong, what are you gonna do with nsa then?
    Nothing, right?


    Posted via CB10
    01-02-14 01:37 PM
  20. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    If you're not involved in terrorizing groups, then nsa is not going to haunt you. They're doing this for those guys because they are hiding in public... hiding behind innocent faces.

    If

    I'm wrong, what are you gonna do with nsa then?
    Nothing, right?


    Posted via CB10
    Well that's not necessarily true. Governments have been known to use "terrorists" excuse to abuse their power the next second.

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.1925
    01-02-14 01:56 PM
  21. LazyEvul's Avatar
    If you're not involved in terrorizing groups, then nsa is not going to haunt you. They're doing this for those guys because they are hiding in public... hiding behind innocent faces.

    If

    I'm wrong, what are you gonna do with nsa then?
    Nothing, right?


    Posted via CB10
    Of course, it's not like the government have abused their power at any point in history, right?
    01-02-14 09:12 PM
  22. systemvolker's Avatar
    Lets say they do abuse the power... what can you do about that, start a war?

    Posted via CB10
    01-03-14 03:41 AM
  23. Omnitech's Avatar
    If you are able to modify your phone's operating system (load a leak or whatever), your phone is at risk.

    There is no known way to root exploit a BlackBerry 10 device with a recent OS on it. The only known exploit involved very early firmware and revolved around exploiting the backup/restore process. That hole has been patched and it is impossible to "revert" a device with modern firmware on it back to an older, vulnerable version.

    The main known entity who used to specialize in rooting older BlackBerries and Playbooks could not get past this protection, closed down their website pertaining to these hacks, and has now put the internet domain itself up for sale. No hacker to my knowledge at any conference, or in any paper or document or online claim has ever presented an actual method of rooting a BB10 device other than what I described above. I know of multiple people who have tried to break it - they have all failed.

    This makes the platform virtually unique in the world of smartphone platforms, to my knowledge.

    If you've ever examined the OS loading process, you would know that the code and the loader are encrypted and signed in ways that make it virtually impossible to load an OS on the device that was not built and signed by BlackBerry Ltd. This is a key reason why leaks became so popular for BB10 devices and why the idea of downloading some unknown-to-you file from some random webserver is not risky the way it generally is on almost any other platforms.

    Because you cannot load an OS onto the device that was not produced and signed by BlackBerry itself, the process is for all intents and purposes, as of today, without risk. (Other than the fact that you may be installing an OS which was never meant to be used outside of internal testing)
    01-03-14 05:45 AM
  24. Omnitech's Avatar
    The roads are public. But my vehicle is not subject to arbitrary spying without probable cause.

    Unfortunately those principles have been seriously undermined over the last 20 years or so, largely via outrageous SCOTUS decisions which themselves are, in my view, unconstitutional.



    BlackBerry has already told us plenty of times and I quote "Our public statements and principles have long underscored that there is no 'back door' pipeline to our platform." [...]

    ...but according to these files below there's no proof of BlackBerry having a "backdoor" which means that BlackBerry is still stands as the most secured platform and that BlackBerry wasn't lying.

    http://cryptome.org/2013/12/nsa-ant-handys.pdf

    First of all, that PDF file proves nothing.

    This is like saying that because I can't see the sun right now (it's nighttime), the sun doesn't exist.

    The mere absence of a BlackBerry exploit in that paper is meaningless.

    And if there is one lesson that Snowden's revelations have hopefully taught us, it is: Do not believe denials from the government or their accomplices.

    I've seen Cisco make similiar denials, and Snowden's documents have already made it fairly clear that Cisco was heavily involved in booby-trapping products for SIGINT purposes, and in their case, probably knowingly as they were probably directly compelled to do so by the US goverment.

    There is NO WAY any company like BlackBerry could be expected to tell the truth if in fact their products had been backdoored. It would be business suicide. BlackBerry knows this, USGOV and POTUS and NSA know this. It's just not an option.

    Furthermore, BlackBerry Ltd is a key US defense contractor and they do business DIRECTLY with the NSA, among other agencies. (The NSA licenses, among other things, Elliptic Curve encryption technology from BlackBerry Ltd., via its Certicom branch.)

    http://www.certicom.com/pdfs/FAQ-The...eAgreement.pdf



    Lets say they do abuse the power... what can you do about that, start a war?

    Are you serious?

    There are many things that can be done.

    Some people aren't particularly enamored of rolling over whenever told to do so.
    .
    01-03-14 06:16 AM
  25. systemvolker's Avatar



    Are you serious?

    There are many things that can be done.

    Some people aren't particularly enamored of rolling over whenever told to do so.
    .
    Nice but I'm pretty sure it's not going to stop NSA.



    Posted via CB10
    01-03-14 06:22 AM
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