03-10-14 03:45 PM
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  1. toneytone's Avatar
    As others have pointed out, this isn't market share we're talking about here. It's the current user base, which is not the number of phones BB sold this quarter, it is the total number of people who currently use a BB (in the case of ComScore there is the additional qualifier that it is their primary mobile phone)

    Market share may well be 0.0% now in the US. It is in a couple other countries already. You can put the 0.0 in quotes all you want, but it won't change how people round numbers. You could say < 0.05% if that makes you more comfortable?



    I get unsurprising, I don't get positive. Most people in the US are on 2 year contracts. Not everyone, but is the most popular way to buy a phone here. So on a 2 year contract, you figure in any given quarter 12% of your base is up for renewal. So it's hard to lose all your subscribers at once since people don't like to pay ETF.

    With that in mind, BB managed to lose 10% of their installed base in one quarter.

    Again, this is not surprising. We all know the consumer market for BB in the US and Europe is effectively on hold until the company figures out how to make money again. So I agree it's expected, but to say this is good news is an enormous stretch for me.


    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    Thanks for making sense which is in short supply around here lately lol

    Posted via Z30 C0002FDEF
    richardat likes this.
    03-08-14 03:33 PM
  2. richardat's Avatar
    Then you are clearly either not paying attention or throwing out data that doesn't mesh with your biases, because there were MANY PEOPLE angry about BGR's characterization, just on these forums. Did you just conveniently ignore all of that?




    Thanks, but you do not speak for "most people", no matter how you may wish it so.
    OK. Now I believe you are not doing this willfully, but instead are simply not following. The passage you were replying to does not posit that nobody was angry, - that should be rather obvious as I clearly address the subject of angry people, including yourself, so I would think it quite obvious. Rather it addresses the reason for the anger, which as I explained thoroughly i suugest was not due to lack of resolution but rather the final value arrived at. As I mentioned I doubt very much that people were as upset by the android or iOS rounding and were bb rounded to 72 percent market share from 72.3 I doubt we would see such zealous passion.

    It is you who keeps trying to make things personal, as the above posts illustrate.(as well as the not very disguise jibe I directly addressed in another thread). Here, I wrote dispassionately about your errors, and only characterized your reaction to zero as emotional because it clearly is - illustrated by your behavior and own admissions (not up for debate you directly talk about it), and because it is indeed specific to the number zero-again by your own admission. The statement is not-and obviously was not meant to be controversial.

    In any case it is clear from the disconnect between my posts and your replies -which do Not accurately reflect the arguments I presented nor provide relevant responses in my opinion that discourses between us will be impossible. It will simply be a matter of others deciding who is making sense, And who is emotional or personal. ...and of course, When it comes to topics in general, time will tell, as it as so often in the last year who's analysis of the situation is more accurate. I feel very comfortable in that regard so cheers!
    Last edited by richardat; 03-08-14 at 06:02 PM.
    03-08-14 05:48 PM
  3. garnok's Avatar
    Agree 100% Omni.
    And to app developer, having an interest in something and discussing it openly is certainly not the same as continually making the same negative post over and over and over.
    We get it and we understand the hurdles in the way. Now rather than continually hammering that point across, how about discuss what needs to happen to fix it...since you and garnock are so interested and all.

    Posted via CB10
    i've already given my opinion how to make BlackBerry company survive on my other post week before MWC..focus on BES and BBM, dumped the hardware. and looks like chen thinking the same (BES12, BBM monetize announcement on MWC) , but for the hardware i think chen stil observe Z3 and maybe Q20 do in the market...

    no i dont want BB to fold, they still have lot to offer with BBM and BES. i love BBM its great for my work, and offer better privacy than other IM. but for consumer market phone i think it is time for BB to give up...

    if you want my suggestion than see the above....BBM and BES as BB main business. BB still can offer phone for government, or corporate high excecutive to support their main business.

    and if they want to enter consumer market, their best way is to find other oportunity outside smartphone market....apple can survive and become the most profitable company not because of mac. they gain their momentum with ipod (mp3 player) and become large player with iPhone. many people in CB already discussing about qnx capabilites on car entertainment system...why BB not give better attention on that? it is better to create new large oportunites.
    03-08-14 06:39 PM
  4. garnok's Avatar
    Bad analogy.
    The jar holds 100 jellybeans. But you can only count jellybeans in increments of 10, because your eyesight isn't very good. You take 91 jellybeans out. Are there any more jellybeans left?
    .
    stupid analogy....

    100jellybeans - 91 jelly beans = 9 jellybeans ...9% yes there is still jelly beans

    but with 0.4% BB marketshare it means
    100 jellybeans - 99.6 jellybeans = 0.4 jelly beans 0.4% jellybeans . it means there is less than half jelly beans...if you ask someone they will tell you no more jellybeans

    many times when you do the rounding basic principle is less than 0.5 = 0 . 0.5 or larger = 1.

    but for BB matters i think 0.0% from media is not accurate..and maybe unfair to Blackberry, it better for media to report blackberry marketshare almost hit 0% or near 0%
    03-08-14 06:52 PM
  5. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    I really think some people must be purposely trying to mislead by confusing the two.
    I added a paragraph break and an explicit [] remark to avoid this. Also warned about Comscore.
    People have a brain.

    Now, should I give a reason for posting this? Well, let's say it is interesting to compare it with the flaw spawned by T-mo crap like (this is false IMHO) 94% BlackBerry users were jumping ship.

    I don't question your intelligence , so I'm certain you can stick on this comparison, where user base is the key metric.
    Your thoughts always very welcome.

    Posted via CB10
    03-09-14 03:56 AM
  6. cgk's Avatar

    Now, should I give a reason for posting this? Well, let's say it is interesting to compare it with the flaw spawned by T-mo crap like (this is false IMHO) 94% BlackBerry users were jumping ship.

    What makes you think it is flawed - they are simply reporting trade-ins related to their latest deal not anything else (and yes I've heard the "people pulling an old device from the bottom of the drawer" theories - wouldn't change the raw number).
    03-09-14 04:17 AM
  7. koool1's Avatar
    BlackBerry needs to pick up the pace in the US with some corporate contracts. Hopefully John Chen's dog and pony show will help.

    Posted via CB10
    03-09-14 08:06 AM
  8. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    Yup, ComScore ... Edited.
    Then, there might be some rounding ... anyways, 3.2% or 3.1% I must say that the "only" -0.5% point change is - to me - "almost" a good surprise in U.S.A.

    Edit: can you edit my title and remove the "third spot" part ?
    Related to this post, on the pcworld Facebook page they wrote this:

    Attachment 253544

    Don't like to participate on the bias or unbiased against BlackBerry debate... but this seems a little biased against. If BlackBerry kept its user base almost unchanged , that kinda says a lot about what they are trying to convey.

    Hardcore BlackBerry 'er
    0.5% loss is a lot when your market share was only 3.6. That's a ~14% drop in market share.

    This is not like Android losing < 1% of its marketshare here, even though the drop in % market share is equivalent to Blackberry's.

    They will never hit 0 because they have corporate contracts, but it does show that existing customers are largely moving to other platforms. This is precicely why their marketshare loss isn't anything as large as it was when they first started bleeding consumers to Android and iOS.

    Doesn't this also count Legacy users, as well?

    That is not good news.
    03-09-14 10:12 AM
  9. collinc93's Avatar
    we all knew this already...the US market gave up on BB and since the US market is the world then BB is dead and irrelevant.....sorry its just what the propaganda and even people living in other countries believe....as popular as Nokia was in the rest of the world...it never quite made it in the US....a very fickle and image driven market...pitiful bit is the rest of the world follows the US trend which makes the rest of the world seem increasingly fickle. Its a fact of life we have to deal with. BB10 could be the best OS there is, but its not seen as trendy and cool or is it the 'in thing'. BlackBerry at the moment is doing the smart thing by trying to hold on to those customers that have more to lose than 'image'-smart move. I hope they continue to survive as a niche player (Porsche in the sportscar industry)...No sense trying to be all things to all people.
    This is aimed at few in this thread...you know yourselves
    This thread has become packed with the bell ringers aka "i told you so" lot. Yes we get it--BB is down in the dumps---now since CrackBerry is for those who like BlackBerry which apparently you dont,why dont you go over to your 'side'? Or do you want to stick around for the final rites? Dont hold your breath.....
    toneytone likes this.
    03-09-14 01:32 PM
  10. app_Developer's Avatar
    we all knew this already...the US market gave up on BB and since the US market is the world then BB is dead and irrelevant.....sorry its just what the propaganda and even people living in other countries believe....as popular as Nokia was in the rest of the world...it never quite made it in the US....a very fickle and image driven market...pitiful bit is the rest of the world follows the US trend which makes the rest of the world seem increasingly fickle. Its a fact of life we have to deal with. BB10 could be the best OS there is, but its not seen as trendy and cool or is it the 'in thing'. BlackBerry at the moment is doing the smart thing by trying to hold on to those customers that have more to lose than 'image'-smart move. I hope they continue to survive as a niche player (Porsche in the sportscar industry)...No sense trying to be all things to all people.
    This is aimed at few in this thread...you know yourselves
    This thread has become packed with the bell ringers aka "i told you so" lot. Yes we get it--BB is down in the dumps---now since CrackBerry is for those who like BlackBerry which apparently you dont,why dont you go over to your 'side'? Or do you want to stick around for the final rites? Dont hold your breath.....
    I don't know why every discussion on BB's state has to devolve into "agree with us or get out of our forum". Again, you can be interested in BB and still disagree on their state and/or their plans.

    On the rest of the world, I think you're insulting most of the world if you think the only reason they stopped buying BB is because they are "following the US trend". Maybe everyone just has their own reasons for preferring Android lately? Is it that hard to see that the Android manufacturers are collectively making a nice spread of phones that appeal to most people now worldwide?

    And if everyone is just following the US trend, then how do you explain how Microsoft is doing much better in Europe so far than they are in the US?

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Last edited by app_Developer; 03-09-14 at 04:22 PM.
    mikeo007 and TGR1 like this.
    03-09-14 04:08 PM
  11. vrud's Avatar
    Maybe everyone just has their own reasons for preferring Android lately?
    Did you mean iPhone?
    From the second post in this forum it shows that both Android and BlackBerry lost 0.5% and as the table shows BlackBerry has 10 times less users so it means that for each BlackBerry user switched to iPhone there are 10 android users who also switched to iPhone.

    Posted via CB10
    03-09-14 04:33 PM
  12. app_Developer's Avatar
    Did you mean iPhone?
    From the second post in this forum it shows that both Android and BlackBerry lost 0.5% and as the table shows BlackBerry has 10 times less users so it means that for each BlackBerry user switched to iPhone there are 10 android users who also switched to iPhone.

    Posted via CB10
    I'd have to do the math, but my guess is that since the total number of users grew by 7%, that means the total number of android users probably went up this report. So I don't think that tells us anything about switching.

    But I was actually talking about the rest of the world in that post. In the rest of the world, Android is the overwhelming favorite. My point was that the rest of the world isn't following any US trend. They just really like what the Android manufacturers are selling.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    03-09-14 04:41 PM
  13. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    What makes you think it is flawed - they are simply reporting trade-ins related to their latest deal not anything else (and yes I've heard the "people pulling an old device from the bottom of the drawer" theories - wouldn't change the raw number).
    At least proven inexact to translate into "94% left BlackBerry" and a world before anyone can claim that this is significant among other users wolrdwide, like many bears have done after this internal document "leaked" (what a joke).

    Now, the figures I reproduced, fairly corrected by Bla1ze in #2 post (and he promptly the title of the thread accordingly) - we didn't have the same source - are not good figures as such. How could they ? They while they demonstrate an actual leak of customers. I never pretended they were good neither. I just noticed they were not AS BAD as many may have forcasted, based on the t-mo "leak" which has zero legitimity to be extrapolated.

    Is that clearer ?
    03-09-14 05:49 PM
  14. garnok's Avatar
    At least proven inexact to translate into "94% left BlackBerry" and a world before anyone can claim that this is significant among other users wolrdwide, like many bears have done after this internal document "leaked" (what a joke).

    Now, the figures I reproduced, fairly corrected by Bla1ze in #2 post (and he promptly the title of the thread accordingly) - we didn't have the same source - are not good figures as such. How could they ? They while they demonstrate an actual leak of customers. I never pretended they were good neither. I just noticed they were not AS BAD as many may have forcasted, based on the t-mo "leak" which has zero legitimity to be extrapolated.

    Is that clearer ?
    comscore timeframe is for nov 2013 - Jan 2014, while t-mobile trade campaign start on february...if you want to see T-mobile promotion impact to Blackberry user base, you have to wait for the next report
    03-09-14 07:46 PM
  15. crazigee's Avatar
    Bla bla bla from the usual suspects.

    Like I said, none of this is surprising. We know their marketshare is low and dropping almost everywhere. The products are not being promoted, they have largely disappeared from stores in many places, salespeople are badmouthing both the company and product incessantly, these are FACTS.

    Anyone who DOES find it a big surprise that their marketshare is low and dropping I think needs to re-calibrate their reality sensor.

    Either that or stop constantly looking for excuses to tell everyone here how horrible the company is doing.

    Yeah, we got it. BlackBerry is not selling many phones.

    Let's hear it for the 347,338,121st time.

    Eeyore would be proud.
    I agree that many salesmen have bad things to say about BlackBerry. I don't necessarily think that the reps badmouthing the products is the major reason for the lack of market share. The negative things being said about BlackBerry is somewhat deserved. BlackBerry did under deliver on BB10.

    I think that if BlackBerry can come out with two flagship devices, 1 Qwerty and 1 touch, that are industry leaders on specs and OS then there will be some more positive promotion.

    So far I'm impressed by the OS updates. The system is really getting where it needs to be and heading in the right direction. If they can add new hardware it will give people something to talk about.


    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    03-09-14 07:58 PM
  16. Tornado99's Avatar
    If the overall market grew 7%, if BlackBerry held onto same actual number of users, wouldn't that still show as a percentage decline in market share?
    Sorry, can't expand the article table to read all details...due to my "crappy" small z10 ;-)


    Flicked out via Zed10
    03-09-14 08:37 PM
  17. sheailewis1's Avatar
    I agree that many salesmen have bad things to say about BlackBerry. I don't necessarily think that the reps badmouthing the products is the major reason for the lack of market share. The negative things being said about BlackBerry is somewhat deserved. BlackBerry did under deliver on BB10.

    I think that if BlackBerry can come out with two flagship devices, 1 Qwerty and 1 touch, that are industry leaders on specs and OS then there will be some more positive promotion.

    So far I'm impressed by the OS updates. The system is really getting where it needs to be and heading in the right direction. If they can add new hardware it will give people something to talk about.


    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    So you're saying that the sales rep who has great influence over most customers final decisions doesn't have any impact on market share? Especially when they are bad mouthing a company and its product?

    #Confusion

    Posted via CB10
    03-09-14 08:47 PM
  18. crazigee's Avatar
    So you're saying that the sales rep who has great influence over most customers final decisions doesn't have any impact on market share? Especially when they are bad mouthing a company and its product?

    #Confusion

    Posted via CB10
    I didn't say "no influence". I said it isn't the major factor behind the decline in market share. I think the major factor is BlackBerry itself under-delivering on BB10 OS and devices. For that reason I think that some of the negative things salesmen are saying is deserved.

    As I said in my post before I think BlackBerry is on the right track with the OS with theses last few updates. If they can add hardware that compete on specs then they will be able to generate a lot of positive word of mouth.


    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    03-09-14 09:46 PM
  19. app_Developer's Avatar
    If the overall market grew 7%, if BlackBerry held onto same actual number of users, wouldn't that still show as a percentage decline in market share?
    Yes, but the decline would have been smaller in that case. If you do the calculation, you'll see that the actual number of users dropped by almost 10%.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    03-09-14 11:38 PM
  20. Omnitech's Avatar
    Reps did not have any impact on iPhone sales, when the iPhone was exclusive to AT&T , then AT&T and Verizon, etc. people bought what they wanted.

    LOL, let's just say it's pretty funny that you're so convinced that not a single person out of the ~200 million that are AT&T or Verizon customers were swayed by what a sales rep told them when they spoke to them about a new smartphone.

    If sales reps had so little impact on what customers bought, they would not be paid commission to 'encourage' people to buy what they want to sell them.
    sheailewis1 likes this.
    03-10-14 06:15 AM
  21. JeepBB's Avatar
    Chen should release subscriber numbers and shut the haters up once and for all.

    If the subscriber numbers were good, BB wouldn't have stopped releasing them a few quarters back.



    JBB
    03-10-14 08:09 AM
  22. Gesig Boek's Avatar
    If they were as bad as you claim, Chen would show some restraint.

    He obviously knows something we don't.
    I'm sure at least several tens of millions were sold.
    03-10-14 01:37 PM
  23. JeepBB's Avatar
    If they were as bad as you claim, Chen would show some restraint.

    He obviously knows something we don't.
    I'm sure Chen knows many things we don't. He is after all CEO of BlackBerry.

    It doesn't alter the fact that BB stopped publicising subscriber numbers a while back following a sustained fall in the userbase numbers over several quarters. Common-sense would surely indicate that those numbers have continued to fall given the backdrop of the failure of BB10 to engage with consumers, firing thousands of employees, and a series of events that culminated in BB putting themselves up for sale, and then pulling the sale and accepting a $1.25Bn debenture loan from Prem.

    Had those numbers stabilised, or even started to rise, only a fool wouldn't have capitalised on shouting that good news from the rooftops. John Chen doesn't seem to be a fool, so the conclusion that those subscriber numbers are continuing their downward trend is obvious, at least to me. Your mileage may differ.
    03-10-14 01:43 PM
  24. JeepBB's Avatar
    Propaganda by the media.
    Nothing to see there.
    Damn, I think you are actually serious. LOL

    The link to a CrackBerry editorial, quoting the CEO of BlackBerry predicting "several tens of millions" in device sales is media propaganda... ?
    03-10-14 01:49 PM
  25. Omnitech's Avatar
    LOL, let's just say it's pretty funny that you're so convinced that every single person out of the ~200 million that are AT&T or Verizon customers were swayed by what a sales rep told them when they spoke to them about a new smartphone.

    See what I did there.


    Yes, you mischaracterized what I wrote, and avoided the obvious point.




    Sales reps had no impact on the iPhone,there was no ifs about it.

    We call this the Reality Distortion Field.
    03-10-14 01:55 PM
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