03-24-14 12:46 PM
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  1. Omnitech's Avatar
    It seems like the lower ppi is confirmed so that is that.
    I've seen no such confirmation. On the contrary, BlackBerry published information for developers stating that any app written to be compatible with the Z30 would work on the Z3.


    Cost is more important than specs for this device.
    You're missing the point.

    Every app developer is required to specifically target which BB10 devices their app is designed to be compatible with because there are only 3 explicit screen resolutions supported by the development tools and developers need to reconfigure apps to accomodate each one they wish to support:

    1. 1280x768 (Z10)
    2. 720x720 (Q10, Q5)
    3. 1280x720 (Z30)


    Since BlackBerry has not given any information or provided any update to the development environment to include a new device screen resolution, there are only 4 possibilities and I rank them here in terms of likelihood:

    1. The Z3 has a 1280x720 screen, and thus any apps written to be compatible with the Z30 will work without modification.
    2. There is an unannounced major OS change that will be rolled-out specifically for the Z3, which pre-scales all app UI elements to fit on the lower Z3 screen resolution.
    3. There is some kind of special-purpose hardware in the Z3 that internally scales UI elements designed for higher-resolution screens down to 540x960.
    4. All native apps presently in BlackBerry World will not work on the Z3, a new development target for the new screen resolution of 540x960 will be introduced and all native apps will have to be re-written to run on the Z3.


    Clearly option #4 would be disastrous for the platform and the success of the Z3.

    Option #3 would be a big surprise and would most likely entail visual, performance and battery-life penalties over a standard design

    Option #2 would be a huge surprise and would likely compromise the visual acuity of the screen due to scaled bitmaps and would impact performance of the device due to the software computational overhead of having to scale every single bitmapped UI element before displaying it during every single refresh of the screen.
    UrbanGlowCam and LuvULongTime like this.
    03-17-14 10:43 PM
  2. The Big Picture's Avatar
    I don't actually know much about Apple earnings but I believe your quoting 35% is gross profit margin.

    Chen is talking about net profit margin.




    Posted via CB10
    This.

    Posted via CB10
    03-17-14 10:49 PM
  3. crackbrry fan's Avatar
    Sony's latest available figures (2013-Q3) show that they are losing money on mobile (listed as "MP&C" in the graph)
    Source: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/fina...r/viewer/13q3/

    Attachment 255737

    HTC is losing money:

    HTC ends 2013 with an operating loss, but net profit - GSMArena.com news

    "HTC has just posted its financial report for Q4 of 2013 showing it made a profit of $10.3 million thanks to selling its remaining stake in Beats Electornics.

    Take that out and you see a quarterly operating loss of $52.7 million - a second consecutive one after a disappointing Q3. Total revenue for the period was $1.4 billion.
    "


    LG is losing money on mobile:

    LG Electronics Misses Estimates on Smartphone Marketing - Bloomberg

    "LGs mobile division had a third-quarter operating loss of 79.7 billion won on sales of 3.05 trillion won. Smartphone shipments in the quarter were 12 million units."


    Nokia's operating margin for 2013-Q4 was apparently -7.5% on mobile - they aren't providing exact figures but most group profits are from other divisions:

    Nokia reveals hugely disappointing Lumia Windows Phone sales in Q4 2013
    Nokia shares Q4 2013 results, including vague report on device sales | PhoneDog
    Actually you are correct, we were approached by a major Korean handset manufacturer to sell their OEM line of devices,the margins made the deal quite unfeasible and we decided not to move forward with the deal. I'm speaking of margins in the single digits. A lot of these manufacturers are selling at a loss but Google tends to subsidize them to make up for the short fall. This is why they rarely give accurate numbers on profit margins. Google makes up for that loss by advertising revenue.

    Posted via CB10
    03-17-14 11:56 PM
  4. Omnitech's Avatar
    Actually you are correct, we were approached by a major Korean handset manufacturer to sell their OEM line of devices,the margins made the deal quite unfeasible and we decided not to move forward with the deal. I'm speaking of margins in the single digits. A lot of these manufacturers are selling at a loss but Google tends to subsidize them to make up for the short fall.

    I don't see how Google is subsidizing them - they are only making it possible for them to enter the marketplace because they have no need to build a platform and an ecosystem, Android is nearly free to put into a product and requires little device manufacturer engineering to produce a functional product.

    The overall point is: building and selling smartphones, by-and-large, is a garbage business to be in today, even if you are an Asian manufacturing powerhouse, unless A) you are a completely dominant vertically-integrated producer like Samsung, or B) you have a proprietary and well-developed platform/ecosystem that is not yet commoditized. (Apple) Even Nokia - which has about a 90% marketshare of Windows Phone - is not making money. Windows Phone isn't proprietary to one hardware vendor but Nokia's attempt to bottom-feed at the low-end of the market, and Microsoft's fee for the OS license certainly doesn't help.

    So in light of all that, it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that Chen's not exactly excited about the smartphone business, especially since BlackBerry has the additional handicap of being a small-volume producer that doesn't have the economy of scale that the bigger players have. Their only saving grace here is their unique BlackBerry platform and ecosystem, including BB10 itself, and their enterprise management tools. (And if they ever get their act together, maybe their QNX auto-industry and M2M/embedded products)

    Which of course is why it's so absurd to hear people suggest that the company would "save themselves" by switching to Android, or heavily push the Android runtime angle. Being a 100% Android OEM would be completely masochistic, and as far as pushing the Android runtime - all I can say about that is: be careful what you wish for, and remember the Trojan Horse.
    03-18-14 03:35 AM
  5. Kashan Osama's Avatar
    No more Blackberry phones coming except q20,z3 and MAYBE 1 last device... just accept it folks BB "devices" division is dead as hell
    03-18-14 04:40 AM
  6. lawguyman's Avatar
    I've seen no such confirmation. On the contrary, BlackBerry published information for developers stating that any app written to be compatible with the Z30 would work on the Z3.




    You're missing the point.

    Every app developer is required to specifically target which BB10 devices their app is designed to be compatible with because there are only 3 explicit screen resolutions supported by the development tools and developers need to reconfigure apps to accomodate each one they wish to support:

    1. 1280x768 (Z10)
    2. 720x720 (Q10, Q5)
    3. 1280x720 (Z30)


    Since BlackBerry has not given any information or provided any update to the development environment to include a new device screen resolution, there are only 4 possibilities and I rank them here in terms of likelihood:

    1. The Z3 has a 1280x720 screen, and thus any apps written to be compatible with the Z30 will work without modification.
    2. There is an unannounced major OS change that will be rolled-out specifically for the Z3, which pre-scales all app UI elements to fit on the lower Z3 screen resolution.
    3. There is some kind of special-purpose hardware in the Z3 that internally scales UI elements designed for higher-resolution screens down to 540x960.
    4. All native apps presently in BlackBerry World will not work on the Z3, a new development target for the new screen resolution of 540x960 will be introduced and all native apps will have to be re-written to run on the Z3.


    Clearly option #4 would be disastrous for the platform and the success of the Z3.

    Option #3 would be a big surprise and would most likely entail visual, performance and battery-life penalties over a standard design

    Option #2 would be a huge surprise and would likely compromise the visual acuity of the screen due to scaled bitmaps and would impact performance of the device due to the software computational overhead of having to scale every single bitmapped UI element before displaying it during every single refresh of the screen.
    The head of BlackBerry Dev Relations has tweeted that Z3 has a different ppi than Z30. They both have the same screen size so that definitely means that Z3 has a lower resolution.

    This phone has been built to be cheap. These kinds of compromises are necessary.

    Posted via CB10
    03-18-14 06:18 AM
  7. Omnitech's Avatar
    The head of BlackBerry Dev Relations has tweeted that Z3 has a different ppi than Z30.

    Aha, I never saw anything about that.

    What a disappointment. Now I'm thinking they may have botched this rollout.
    03-18-14 06:39 AM
  8. lawguyman's Avatar
    Assuming that the Z3 has a 960x540 resolution, that means the screen has 518,400 pixels.

    Playbook with its 1024x600 resolution has 614,400 pixels on a screen that is 2" bigger. Don't you think PlayBook had a good screen?

    The quality of the screen will be determined by many things and resolution is not even one of the most important.

    Playbook has a good screen and Z3 might also. The things to look for are on/off contrast, ANSI contrast, lumen output, and black levels. Also, the most important thing is the underlying tech. Of the screen. Is it IPS?

    Resolution will only be a detriment with small text and other very fine detail. Honestly, even looking at the video with the Z3 and Z30 that CB posted you can see how the two screens look different. Most differences will only become apparent with a side by side comparison. By itself, the Z3 will look fine.

    Again, BlackBerry needs to make money on these things. Compromises have to be made to reach a price point. Every manufacturer is in this position so I think it is really premature to say BlackBerry has botched this.





    Posted via CB10
    03-18-14 07:21 AM
  9. crackbrry fan's Avatar
    I don't see how Google is subsidizing them - they are only making it possible for them to enter the marketplace because they have no need to build a platform and an ecosystem, Android is nearly free to put into a product and requires little device manufacturer engineering to produce a functional product.

    The overall point is: building and selling smartphones, by-and-large, is a garbage business to be in today, even if you are an Asian manufacturing powerhouse, unless A) you are a completely dominant vertically-integrated producer like Samsung, or B) you have a proprietary and well-developed platform/ecosystem that is not yet commoditized. (Apple) Even Nokia - which has about a 90% marketshare of Windows Phone - is not making money. Windows Phone isn't proprietary to one hardware vendor but Nokia's attempt to bottom-feed at the low-end of the market, and Microsoft's fee for the OS license certainly doesn't help.

    So in light of all that, it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that Chen's not exactly excited about the smartphone business, especially since BlackBerry has the additional handicap of being a small-volume producer that doesn't have the economy of scale that the bigger players have. Their only saving grace here is their unique BlackBerry platform and ecosystem, including BB10 itself, and their enterprise management tools. (And if they ever get their act together, maybe their QNX auto-industry and M2M/embedded products)

    Which of course is why it's so absurd to hear people suggest that the company would "save themselves" by switching to Android, or heavily push the Android runtime angle. Being a 100% Android OEM would be completely masochistic, and as far as pushing the Android runtime - all I can say about that is: be careful what you wish for, and remember the Trojan Horse.
    I'm not suggesting that they are being subsidized I'm Confirming that they are! As for Android on BlackBerry I never wished for that in fact the day BlackBerry goes Android its BB. That is Bye Bye.

    Posted via CB10
    03-18-14 10:25 AM
  10. Omnitech's Avatar
    Assuming that the Z3 has a 960x540 resolution, that means the screen has 518,400 pixels.

    Playbook with its 1024x600 resolution has 614,400 pixels on a screen that is 2" bigger. Don't you think PlayBook had a good screen?

    The quality of the screen will be determined by many things and resolution is not even one of the most important.

    Playbook has a good screen and Z3 might also. The things to look for are on/off contrast, ANSI contrast, lumen output, and black levels. Also, the most important thing is the underlying tech. Of the screen. Is it IPS?

    Resolution will only be a detriment with small text and other very fine detail. Honestly, even looking at the video with the Z3 and Z30 that CB posted you can see how the two screens look different. Most differences will only become apparent with a side by side comparison. By itself, the Z3 will look fine.

    Again, BlackBerry needs to make money on these things. Compromises have to be made to reach a price point. Every manufacturer is in this position so I think it is really premature to say BlackBerry has botched this.Posted via CB10

    Once again, you miss the point.

    I already explained why I thought not using a documented BB10 screen resolution was a bad idea, and it was not simply "screen quality".

    But while we're on the screen quality subject anyway, have you ever tried to display non-native pixel resolution input on a flat panel display? Digitally-bitmapped display technology does not do well with non-native resolution input.

    The other issues revolve around performance and battery life and hardware/software overhead.

    .
    03-18-14 09:32 PM
  11. Omnitech's Avatar
    I'm not suggesting that they are being subsidized I'm Confirming that they are!
    So how precisely does Google subsidize handset vendors. Leaves unmarked bags of gold coins on their loading dock once a month?
    03-18-14 09:35 PM
  12. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    Change the name (Heins to Chen), but the game still the same.
    That's a seriously empty and naive comment

    Posted via CB10
    03-18-14 09:37 PM
  13. crackbrry fan's Avatar
    So how precisely does Google subsidize handset vendors. Leaves unmarked bags of gold coins on their loading dock once a month?
    Yeah I concur. Something like that.

    Posted via CB10
    03-18-14 10:11 PM
  14. lawguyman's Avatar
    Once again, you miss the point.

    I already explained why I thought not using a documented BB10 screen resolution was a bad idea, and it was not simply "screen quality".

    But while we're on the screen quality subject anyway, have you ever tried to display non-native pixel resolution input on a flat panel display? Digitally-bitmapped display technology does not do well with non-native resolution input.

    The other issues revolve around performance and battery life and hardware/software overhead.

    .
    Most apps use interpolation of some kind without any issues, even if they technically target different resolutions.

    I'm not saying that you could not see issues in a direct comparison, especially if there are drastic resolution differences or differences in screen sizes. You can spot differences.

    What I am saying is that these differences are going to be there in many cases anyway.

    Pixel panel displays are kind of unforgiving. But, the 960x540 resolution seems an odd choice but it really isn't.

    960x540 =518,400
    1920x1080=2,073,600
    2,073,600/4 = 518,400

    Scaling 1080p down to 540p will look pretty good because mathematically you are simply eliminating 3 out of four pixels.

    Plus, there are sophisticated scaling algorithms to smooth things out.

    Again, detail will be lost and it clearly will not look as sharp as a higher res screen. But, this is not a high end device. It is a device that has some higher end features that is built to be affordable in developing nations.

    Posted via CB10
    03-19-14 07:28 AM
  15. Omnitech's Avatar
    Most apps use interpolation of some kind without any issues, even if they technically target different resolutions.

    I'd like to know how you came to that conclusion.

    If a platform is designed to be hardware-independent, and in particular if a development framework is designed to be screen-resolution-independent, that's one thing.

    But Cascades is not designed that way - it has specific screen resolution targets that you have to specify you are designing for. Which is why a bunch of app developers created a thread here about exactly that when they heard the rumors about the Z3 screen resolution.


    Plus, there are sophisticated scaling algorithms to smooth things out.
    Those "sophisticated scaling algorithms" are called anti-aliasing and they do not magically make things look wonderful. Personally I think it looks like crap on line-art and textual material. You can get away much more easily with that when the displayed content is a fuzzy picture of Aunt Martha, not so much when you are trying to read 4-point type or make out a tiny BBM emoticon.
    03-20-14 06:03 AM
  16. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    No more Blackberry phones coming except q20,z3 and MAYBE 1 last device... just accept it folks BB "devices" division is dead as hell
    LOL - you must be fun at parties!
    CDM76 likes this.
    03-20-14 07:00 AM
  17. lawguyman's Avatar
    I'd like to know how you came to that conclusion.

    If a platform is designed to be hardware-independent, and in particular if a development framework is designed to be screen-resolution-independent, that's one thing.

    But Cascades is not designed that way - it has specific screen resolution targets that you have to specify you are designing for. Which is why a bunch of app developers created a thread here about exactly that when they heard the rumors about the Z3 screen resolution.




    Those "sophisticated scaling algorithms" are called anti-aliasing and they do not magically make things look wonderful. Personally I think it looks like crap on line-art and textual material. You can get away much more easily with that when the displayed content is a fuzzy picture of Aunt Martha, not so much when you are trying to read 4-point type or make out a tiny BBM emoticon.
    Windows apps scale. Android Apps scale. When Apple went to retina displays all old lower resolution apps scaled. Scaling is used all the time. Some apps won't scale well. This is a problem with scaling. Most will be fine.

    Scaling is about more than anti aliasing. Good scaling is good and bad scaling is bad. But, when you scale down you are definitely losing detail. It will not be as good as the original but that does not mean it will look bad.

    Again, difference may not be noticeable unless a side-by-side comparison is done.

    Posted via CB10
    03-20-14 11:38 AM
  18. Omnitech's Avatar
    Windows apps scale. Android Apps scale. When Apple went to retina displays all old lower resolution apps scaled. Scaling is used all the time. Some apps won't scale well. This is a problem with scaling. Most will be fine.
    The obvious point you are missing is that the BlackBerry 10 development environment does not work that way.

    If it did, then I wouldn't be having this dialogue with you.

    Oh and BTW, Apple was scaling UP, not DOWN for Retina displays, very different thing. Especially when they sized those displays in exactly double the pixel count of previously used displays, making that scaling less problematic.


    Scaling is about more than anti aliasing. Good scaling is good and bad scaling is bad. But, when you scale down you are definitely losing detail. It will not be as good as the original but that does not mean it will look bad.

    Again, difference may not be noticeable unless a side-by-side comparison is done.
    Once again, I disagree.

    And if these "sophisticated scaling algorithms" are not anti-aliasing (which I suppose is true in the sense that you have to start with chopping out the pixels, but that doesn't come under the heading of "sophisticated"), then what are they?

    Anti-aliasing is basically the practice of adding "fuzz" or noise to the signal. In digital audio the term is "dither". Visually speaking, it is like using film with larger grain. If you don't think that this difference is easily noticeable (especially on hard-edged material like small typefaces and line-art), you might want to get your eyes checked.
    app_Developer likes this.
    03-20-14 03:26 PM
  19. early2bed's Avatar
    People who think that apps on mobile devices will scale just fine are almost always wrong. You usually end up UI elements that are beyond the borders of the screen, distractingly small or large text or buttons, big black borders, video scaling problems, etc. webOS had a hard time settling on a screen aspect ratio and never got beyond it.

    We use app on our PCs that fit wrong or waste space all the time because it's no big deal with all that screen real estate. On a smartphone screen that would be intolerable. I can't imagine trying to fit a rectangular UI Designed for an Android onto a squarish screen with the tool belt and keyboard below it. How is that going to work? The Android Developers sure won't care.
    Omnitech likes this.
    03-20-14 04:12 PM
  20. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    So how precisely does Google subsidize handset vendors. Leaves unmarked bags of gold coins on their loading dock once a month?
    Why do you think Google bought all those robot companies? Bags of gold are HEAVY - why not have the robots do the heavy lifting and carrying?

    Omnitech likes this.
    03-20-14 04:23 PM
  21. lawguyman's Avatar
    The obvious point you are missing is that the BlackBerry 10 development environment does not work that way.

    If it did, then I wouldn't be having this dialogue with you.

    Oh and BTW, Apple was scaling UP, not DOWN for Retina displays, very different thing. Especially when they sized those displays in exactly double the pixel count of previously used displays, making that scaling less problematic.




    Once again, I disagree.

    And if these "sophisticated scaling algorithms" are not anti-aliasing (which I suppose is true in the sense that you have to start with chopping out the pixels, but that doesn't come under the heading of "sophisticated"), then what are they?

    Anti-aliasing is basically the practice of adding "fuzz" or noise to the signal. In digital audio the term is "dither". Visually speaking, it is like using film with larger grain. If you don't think that this difference is easily noticeable (especially on hard-edged material like small typefaces and line-art), you might want to get your eyes checked.
    I'm not sure there is much use going back and forth about this. I think we agree that scaling has cost associated with it. Where we disagree is whether this compromise is a necessary one.

    I hope that BlackBerry is building a device that will be priced as much under $200 as possible. 150 or less would be ideal. For a device of this cost, this compromise is necessary even if the screen is not stellar. Good will be good enough. It doesn't have to be great.

    You seem to want to build a mid-range phone at a bargain price. That is a trick no one has yet pulled off.

    Posted via CB10
    03-20-14 04:52 PM
  22. Omnitech's Avatar
    You seem to want to build a mid-range phone at a bargain price. That is a trick no one has yet pulled off.

    You seem to be having an argument with yourself here.

    I have not been arguing about the device, I have been arguing about how software would run on it, and WHAT software would be compatible with it.

    Regardless, there have been people all over this forum claiming that even the Z3 is not good enough at the price it was announced at - you are one of them. By continually telling us you think they should sell it even cheaper than promised, you are basically contradicting yourself.

    Regardless the market price of the device, if it doesn't at least run most of the current software in BlackBerry World in an efficient way, it will be dead before it arrives.
    03-20-14 08:41 PM
  23. lawguyman's Avatar
    People who think that apps on mobile devices will scale just fine are almost always wrong. You usually end up UI elements that are beyond the borders of the screen, distractingly small or large text or buttons, big black borders, video scaling problems, etc. webOS had a hard time settling on a screen aspect ratio and never got beyond it.

    We use app on our PCs that fit wrong or waste space all the time because it's no big deal with all that screen real estate. On a smartphone screen that would be intolerable. I can't imagine trying to fit a rectangular UI Designed for an Android onto a squarish screen with the tool belt and keyboard below it. How is that going to work? The Android Developers sure won't care.
    The problem that you identify is caused by scaling from one aspect ratio to another.

    That is not the case here. Z30 and Z3 have the same AR. That is why apps that are targeted for Z30 will automatically be available for Z3.

    The downscaling from Z30 to Z3 will result in loss of detail but that is to be expected with a lower resolution screen anyway.

    Posted via CB10
    03-21-14 06:21 AM
  24. lawguyman's Avatar
    You seem to be having an argument with yourself here.

    I have not been arguing about the device, I have been arguing about how software would run on it, and WHAT software would be compatible with it.

    Regardless, there have been people all over this forum claiming that even the Z3 is not good enough at the price it was announced at - you are one of them. By continually telling us you think they should sell it even cheaper than promised, you are basically contradicting yourself.

    Regardless the market price of the device, if it doesn't at least run most of the current software in BlackBerry World in an efficient way, it will be dead before it arrives.
    It hasn't been announced at a price. It has been said that it will be under $200. The cheaper the better. $150 increases the chance of success.

    Posted via CB10
    03-21-14 06:28 AM
  25. Omnitech's Avatar
    It hasn't been announced at a price. It has been said that it will be under $200. The cheaper the better. $150 increases the chance of success.
    If your only measure of "success" is how many are sold, then pricing it at $10 would be even better.

    Only one problem: it needs to actually bring the company a profit.

    BlackBerry cannot and should not attempt to compete on a strict price basis in the market. They WILL fail if they attempt to do this.

    According to the vast majority of Indonesians I polled, they think the announced price point is just fine.
    03-21-14 07:15 AM
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