01-06-15 07:53 PM
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  1. anon1727506's Avatar
    I don't agree that they are past the point. It's never too late to do the right thing. And the comparisons to Windows phone are somewhat relevant. However the difference is BB has Android apps to fill in the gap, whereas Windows does not. So whatever native app is missing in BB world can easily be attained via Amazon/Android. This is huge from a marketing perspective assuming BB can ever figure this out.
    Sorry but it is possible to reach a point of no return....

    BlackBerry's NEED to allow the direct installation of Android Apps.... just dilutes the platform. Especially when with full Android you can normally get more powerful hardware for less money and a much higher compatibility rate with Apps. There was a time many here stated "better Android than Android", you don't hear that as much, because it's not really true. Never mind Google's move towards a more "controlled" app market with Google Services. So who know what the "App" situation might be in two years if Android = Google Play = Android Alliance Devices Only.

    It is too late in my opinion.... because they only have so much money left and because they waited until the BB10 platform FAILED with consumers, now it will cost them even more now to pay for the kind of Apps that the platform needs in order to stand own it's own. And some developers are going to look at BlackBerry and no matter how much they offer... view it as a waste of their time.
    12-22-14 12:16 PM
  2. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Sorry but it is possible to reach a point of no return....

    BlackBerry's NEED to allow the direct installation of Android Apps.... just dilutes the platform. Especially when with full Android you can normally get more powerful hardware for less money and a much higher compatibility rate with Apps. There was a time many here stated "better Android than Android", you don't hear that as much, because it's not really true. Never mind Google's move towards a more "controlled" app market with Google Services. So who know what the "App" situation might be in two years if Android = Google Play = Android Alliance Devices Only.

    It is too late in my opinion.... because they only have so much money left and because they waited until the BB10 platform FAILED with consumers, now it will cost them even more now to pay for the kind of Apps that the platform needs in order to stand own it's own. And some developers are going to look at BlackBerry and no matter how much they offer... view it as a waste of their time.
    We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

    Posted via CB10
    12-22-14 02:09 PM
  3. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    No body can deny your numbers and the chill it is bringing on. But BBRY is moving away from device dependency or at least trying to. They need more BES 12 deployment to manage the vast iOS, Android and other devices out there in the wild and at the same time trying to push software like Blend, BBM Protected, Balance etc as productive features which can turn any toy to a tool. They may also humbly show their Passport and Classic wherever they can to push sales. That's it. And some regulated markets.

    I'll delighted if you dig some MDM figures and their fleet strength for the past 5 years and see who stands where. That's where the vanilla is. :-)
    Soooo, what's the point of us hanging around then?
    12-22-14 02:49 PM
  4. anon1727506's Avatar
    Soooo, what's the point of us hanging around then?
    I was watching Discovery (or one of those Nature shows).... Started out about a Sperm Whale and her calf and then showed a pack of killer whales. It was a sad thing to sit there and watch... kept hoping that either the Sperm Whales would dive down or something. But the Killer Whales finally wore the calf down and killed it after 12 hours or so.

    Had to ask myself why did I watch that....
    12-22-14 04:22 PM
  5. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Soooo, what's the point of us hanging around then?
    Because BB phones are not going anywhere. They are just not as a big a part of the company anymore (or Chen is hoping for this).
    12-22-14 08:25 PM
  6. TomasTT's Avatar
    BlackBerry cannot do much more regarding support of android apps on their platform really. More android apps also means more people will think why not to run it native on perhaps cheaper and better handheld.
    BlackBerry will not gain interest of such massive number of developers if the marketshare of BlackBerry platform will be so low as it is now and it will not be better if there will not be more apps. Its closed circle.
    What may help is one cheap and relatively good device for masses - not business unit, something for people, who use calendar for reminding what date is today then keeping 20+ evens per day there.
    But to attract enthusiastic users is required high-end model too and passport is too different to attract such range of customers. Market need flagship without hw keyboard or maybe with slider.
    Classic is what 99 of 100 professional users need for daily work. But it will not cover everything. I do at work also FB pages - content every couple hours, quick video edits, simple stuff but on BlackBerry bad. Using iphone for it. I would need much better camera, software like snapseed and imovie and some cloud service what can deal with 10000+ photos per year. Try use dropbox for such task - impossible. Icloud is bad, but I can open recent shared cloud photos in a seconds - don't care that old stuff is loading ages and all above 1000 is not synced. I need to shoot something at work, make easy touch ups, blur, filter, frame and before I walk up by stairway to my office, I want to have it ready to drop it in adobe premiere timeline. And ios works this way.
    But major problem this year in our country is - no real distributor/bb rep, lack of units (passport was not possible to buy until few days ago) and how can BlackBerry expect sales numbers, when people just wait and wait and wait? I'm waiting for classic since it was first time introduced in news. 6 months ago or so? Anything else is not interesting for me. But I purchased iphone6 instead of iphone5 month and half ago. But classic is postponed, 10.3 is postponed. What would interest people if passport is not in shops and classic postponed?

    Posted using BlackBerry Q10
    12-22-14 09:10 PM
  7. ADGrant's Avatar
    As a business graduate, I also like to use a similar argument when I get into these types of discussions. As long as BlackBerry can offer differentiated products that enough people would buy to offset their fixed and variable expenses, they can survive. And it's not like all industries only have two players, so why smartphones?

    Posted via CB10
    because desktop/laptop computers only have two players.
    12-23-14 07:47 AM
  8. birdman_38's Avatar
    because desktop/laptop computers only have two players.
    As does mobile.
    12-23-14 08:14 AM
  9. early2bed's Avatar
    Eventually, most users run into some niche app that they really want to use such as an employer-specific app or some tool that is being used at home like the app that opens up my garage door or that allows me to see who is ringing my doorbell. These occasional app users aren't the ones that will sideload an app nor put up with apps that stop working after they are updated (or if they are not updated). In other words, these app users need the reliability and convenience of native apps. This is why BB10 will eventually lose out when developers feel that they simply need to cover iOS, Android, and maybe Windows Phone.
    m1a1mg, mornhavon and anon1727506 like this.
    12-23-14 08:28 AM
  10. ADGrant's Avatar
    Eventually, most users run into some niche app that they really want to use such as an employer-specific app or some tool that is being used at home like the app that opens up my garage door or that allows me to see who is ringing my doorbell. These occasional app users aren't the ones that will sideload an app nor put up with apps that stop working after they are updated (or if they are not updated). In other words, these app users need the reliability and convenience of native apps. This is why BB10 will eventually lose out when developers feel that they simply need to cover iOS, Android, and maybe Windows Phone.
    Developers aren't bothering with Windows Phone for the most part. For niche apps its iOS first and then maybe Android if the iOS app does well. For the big social and messaging apps, a Windows version may be released (unless it's from Google).

    If you want the best access to apps the iOS platform is the best choice. It has a full suite of Microsoft and Google apps.
    eyesopen1111 likes this.
    12-23-14 08:52 AM
  11. m1a1mg's Avatar
    I've found that even Android tablet is falling short on tablet specific apps. And there are a lot of Android tablets for devs to write for.
    app_Developer likes this.
    12-23-14 09:55 AM
  12. Blue787's Avatar
    Don't they have like the 1.3 millionth Apple app to freak out about ?

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    12-23-14 07:02 PM
  13. dusdal's Avatar
    Blackberry will recognise revenue when a device has been sold to a retailer.
    JC stated multiple times that they are using the most conservative revenue recognition method. This method means they don't actually record the revenue until the device is switched on.

    Posted via CB10
    12-23-14 07:14 PM
  14. KingOfQwerty's Avatar
    Soooo, what's the point of us hanging around then?
    Everyone here know that Chen has made devices as one of the 4 business he will focus but also realistic enough to set a target to achieve annually to set the ball rolling.

    We are one quarter away from the future and we know how tough Chen can get. Until then happy hanging :-)

    Hoping not that this forum becomes a chen troll.

    Posted via CB10
    12-23-14 10:53 PM
  15. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Could part of the reason why other BB10 handsets haven't been selling as well as this time last year, and that the sales of BBOS devices are lower, because many who might have purchased either were waiting almost a year for the Classic? My sister, a 9900 user, is waiting for Rogers Canada to get the Classic and hasn't update to BB10 bcause she's just not a touchscreen fan.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 12-24-14 at 09:06 AM.
    12-23-14 11:06 PM
  16. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    Could part of the reason why other BB10 handsets haven't been selling as well, and the sales of BBOS devices are lower, is because many who might have purchased either were waiting almost a year for the Classic? I do.
    It's not that BB10 handsets haven't been selling well. You can't sell something that doesn't exist. Other than a limited run of Passports, BB has not released a new phone in over a year. This was the Z30 which was released when the company was up for sale. Instead of being disappointed with current HW sales we should actually be surprised that they are not worse.

    And I agree that people have been waiting a long time for new phones. BB needs to put together a solid year over year roadmap and actually debut new devices at a set time each year, just like successful companies do (like Apple!).
    12-24-14 01:10 AM
  17. early2bed's Avatar
    BB needs to put together a solid year over year roadmap and actually debut new devices at a set time each year, just like successful companies do (like Apple!).
    So, can you have a successful smart phone line without good carrier support? It seems like the only BlackBerry phones that carriers want to support uniformly are the retro ones like the Classic. One really has to wonder how many of those you're going to be able to sell year after year.
    12-24-14 01:38 AM
  18. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    So, can you have a successful smart phone line without good carrier support? It seems like the only BlackBerry phones that carriers want to support uniformly are the retro ones like the Classic. One really has to wonder how many of those you're going to be able to sell year after year.
    Carrier support is an issue, but it didn't stop them from creating the Passport. At the end of the day they have to start somewhere. Not making any devices won't improve their relationship with carriers. I stand by what I said above. They need a solid year over year road map. They don't have to overproduce any of the new devices. They can manage the inventory and sell directly to consumers. Eventually they will hit on a good device/form factor that carriers will want.
    12-24-14 09:56 AM
  19. asherN's Avatar
    Thanks for reading

    And yes, I totally agree that the MDM & Services market will be very interesting to watch. Especially to see if it'll be enough for Blackberry to profit from in the long run. By combining MDM & Services we could see the Enterprise side of Blackberry grow to be larger than hardware and provide much better margins.

    Still some way to go though.
    They have to price it right though. We ditched BB handsets a few months ago. I have a small fleet of handsets, a dozen in Canada and about the same in the US. My Canadian devices are all company owned, so Exchange is good enough as a MDM, I can do a full device wipe. My US devices a BYOD. So I'll be looking at MDM next year. I'll be seriously looking at Meraki, Maas360, perhaps AirWatch. I wanted to look at BES12. I still might if the other 3 don't meet my needs. Why? because at the 20,000 feet level, MaaS360 and BES12 do what I need. MaaS is $51/year/device. BES12 is $80. That's a big jump. I'm also not happy with the $55/year premium for non-BB devices. If you want to be a serious contender in a market, you need to compete on price, and especially to not seem to send a message that says "We'll support your device, but it'll cost you"
    12-24-14 10:19 AM
  20. early2bed's Avatar
    They can manage the inventory and sell directly to consumers. Eventually they will hit on a good device/form factor that carriers will want.
    That's not going to add up to the 10 million devices per year which is the supposed break even point - and that's with John Chen's reduced product line. He canceled every hardware project except for the Passport when he came aboard - because it was too far along. From what we have seen, he's not doing a wide variety of devices, just the ones that enterprise say that they will buy for sure. I'm guessing there are no slabs coming.
    12-24-14 11:17 AM
  21. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    That's not going to add up to the 10 million devices per year which is the supposed break even point - and that's with John Chen's reduced product line. He canceled every hardware project except for the Passport when he came aboard - because it was too far along. From what we have seen, he's not doing a wide variety of devices, just the ones that enterprise say that they will buy for sure. I'm guessing there are no slabs coming.
    Maybe he doesn't need 10 million? Didn't he say on the last earnings call that whatever HW they have sold turned a profit for them? And if that is true, profit is profit, no?

    WRT to a new slab coming, you are probably right. But I'll wait for MWC first as Chen is supposed to make some announcements there.
    crackberry_geek and dusdal like this.
    12-24-14 01:15 PM
  22. early2bed's Avatar
    Maybe he doesn't need 10 million? Didn't he say on the last earnings call that whatever HW they have sold turned a profit for them? And if that is true, profit is profit, no?
    One of the first things you learn in business school is that profit is not always profit. I don't even think 10 million units a year is enough to justify Blackberry staying in the smartphone hardware business. For example, there are a lot of valuable patents that Blackberry is holding simply to keep other companies from suing them with their own patents. There is a tremendous opportunity cost in keeping these patents that may be worth a billion or two. I'm not sure how much longer John Chen can justify to shareholders holding onto a billion dollars worth of patents just to try to sell 10 million phones per year.
    eyesopen1111 likes this.
    12-24-14 01:38 PM
  23. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    One of the first things you learn in business school is that profit is not always profit. I don't even think 10 million units a year is enough to justify Blackberry staying in the smartphone hardware business. For example, there are a lot of valuable patents that Blackberry is holding simply to keep other companies from suing them with their own patents. There is a tremendous opportunity cost in keeping these patents that may be worth a billion or two. I'm not sure how much longer John Chen can justify to shareholders holding onto a billion dollars worth of patents just to try to sell 10 million phones per year.
    If the assumption is that they flat-line at less than 10m/year, then I agree. But if they are making money today on sub 10m, and can slowly build up sales quarter over quarter than I think it would be worth it for them to tough it out. As I have said before, they have not released any new HW in a year other than a limited run of passports. How can anyone expect HW sales to be over 10m? They need to release new devices to market in a timely manner, try to build interest, and see where things go from there. It's like closing down your lemonade stand and calling it failure, but you never had any lemonade to sell to begin with.
    12-24-14 06:27 PM
  24. dusdal's Avatar
    Maybe he doesn't need 10 million? Didn't he say on the last earnings call that whatever HW they have sold turned a profit for them? And if that is true, profit is profit, no?

    WRT to a new slab coming, you are probably right. But I'll wait for MWC first as Chen is supposed to make some announcements there.
    Exactly what I was thinking. In fact they have been profitable on hardware for the last two quarters at these volumes.

    Suspect Chen's 10 Mln comment was his usual conservative/underpromise form.

    Posted via CB10
    12-24-14 06:53 PM
  25. dusdal's Avatar
    Additionally, as Chen has stated, there is value in them providing hardware as the final link in the security chain for the highly regulated industries.

    Tough to place the a value on this as compared to patent licensing and litigation. It appears he currently sees this as strategically important for the time being and making a few bucks off devices is a bonus.

    Posted via CB10
    LuvULongTime likes this.
    12-24-14 06:58 PM
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