12-05-17 11:31 AM
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  1. Superdupont 2_0's Avatar
    The only explanation I can find is that BlackBerry simply wasn't 'convincing' enough. Compared to BB10, MeeGo was an order of magnitude smaller platform, yet Nokia somehow managed to have native (and fully integrated with the OS) Skype client and a few others, too. So maybe BlackBerry shouldn't have "knocked at their door" but simply made a proper deal with them. They are commercial businesses, so I can't believe they'd refuse to get paid for something that - as you wrote - didn't really take any effort or investment. More likely, no one really offered them anything but "kind requests".
    While I don't believe any of the funny conspiracy theories one can find on CB, I do have the impression that the market just doesn't have any sympathy for RIM/BlackBerry.

    I wonder if consumers, carriers and developers are just tired about the idea to have any 3rd platform in the market.
    That would explain why Windows Phones failed too.

    Or RIM/BlackBerry has built such a bad reputation over the last 10 years that many people didn't want to work with them anymore or didn't want their products anymore.
    For example, I know many people who really hated the BBOS experience and who felt so relieved when their companies moved to iOS.


    Posted via CB10
    01-08-17 09:56 AM
  2. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    [b][color=#000066]The clearest evidence, was the hoops that needed jumped through, in order to install an apk in the early BB10 versions.
    It's not an evidence. It's just that initially they wanted to have the same installer package format for all app types - not just native and Android, but also AIR, HTML5 and so on. And also that initially they wanted to allow installation of Android apps (just like native ones) from BBW only. Then they made an exception for Android apps, for users' convenience.

    Note that installing a native *.bar file even now still takes using a PC and a special "tool", you can't install it from the device itself, etc.

    It's all about BB10 permissions (which are listed in the bar-descriptor.xml file). When initially Android apps needed to be converted to *.bar first, it already had that file with permissions and the default BB10 installer could process it. After they decided to allow installing *.apk files directly, they had to modify the installer so that now it generates it on-the-fly upon installation. The installer now does exactly the same what the apk-to-bar converter (the "porting tool") was doing previously. Check how *.apk installation looks like - first the progress bar goes half-way and only then the permission requester is shown, then the second half of installation continues.

    I agree CrapWorld was a mess, but I don't think it was impossible to find the quality apps.
    Not impossible but too difficult for an average user. Most people are unable to browse BBW's unintuitive structure.

    Simple example: an app featured on the Home Carousel gets 10-20 times more hits than an app featured on the "Apps" or "Games" subsection Carousel. Which means that majority of people don't go even that one single level deeper than the store's home page, not to even mention any farther than that.

    That's why Google Play store has DOZENS of categories directly on its home page. Whereas BBW has always had only a few "Top" categories on its home page, listing mostly the same apps ever since I can remember. 90% of users don't even know that they can go to "Apps" or "Games" subsections, and even less of them know that they can select app categories (like Utilities, Navigation, etc.) from the menu.

    As I said, every time my app gets featured on the home page I get lots of comments from people who say that they've been looking for this kind of app for years, which is the best proof for me that most people can't find anything unless it is featured on the home page.

    There were so many glaring reasons for BB10's failure by early 2013, pontificating about minutia is rather pointless. Nearly as pointless as dreaming there's still a future, or believing those who have accepted reality are haters.
    I never said that it was only the reasons I listed, I only described what was the worst for me. Nor did I ever say that it has a future, or called anyone hater.
    01-08-17 11:57 AM
  3. stlabrat's Avatar
    missing wechat for asia and whatsapp for NA/EU, and for some,missing Starbuck were the mission critical for the phone (Tim Houlton just not good enough). BB not alone. Nokia just jump on the droid as well. Let's see how that goes. the new phone target china with price tag of 246 USD. Similar deal with foxconn but brand owned by HMD. Look like mercury will have new company (only in china, Let's hopefully mercury has good luck in NA). http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hmd-gl...002321647.html
    01-08-17 01:23 PM
  4. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    It's not an evidence. It's just that initially they wanted to have the same installer package format for all app types - not just native and Android, but also AIR, HTML5 and so on. And also that initially they wanted to allow installation of Android apps (just like native ones) from BBW only. Then they made an exception for Android apps, for users' convenience.

    Note that installing a native *.bar file even now still takes using a PC and a special "tool", you can't install it from the device itself, etc.

    It's all about BB10 permissions (which are listed in the bar-descriptor.xml file). When initially Android apps needed to be converted to *.bar first, it already had that file with permissions and the default BB10 installer could process it. After they decided to allow installing *.apk files directly, they had to modify the installer so that now it generates it on-the-fly upon installation. The installer now does exactly the same what the apk-to-bar converter (the "porting tool") was doing previously. Check how *.apk installation looks like - first the progress bar goes half-way and only then the permission requester is shown, then the second half of installation continues.
    All that was necessary, to install an apk directly, from the very beginning, was to unlock development mode. They removed that requirement later on, but ART always allowed it. Yes, it was about permission. I'm glad we now agree.

    Not impossible but too difficult for an average user. Most people are unable to browse BBW's unintuitive structure.

    Simple example: an app featured on the Home Carousel gets 10-20 times more hits than an app featured on the "Apps" or "Games" subsection Carousel. Which means that majority of people don't go even that one single level deeper than the store's home page, not to even mention any farther than that.

    That's why Google Play store has DOZENS of categories directly on its home page. Whereas BBW has always had only a few "Top" categories on its home page, listing mostly the same apps ever since I can remember. 90% of users don't even know that they can go to "Apps" or "Games" subsections, and even less of them know that they can select app categories (like Utilities, Navigation, etc.) from the menu.

    As I said, every time my app gets featured on the home page I get lots of comments from people who say that they've been looking for this kind of app for years, which is the best proof for me that most people can't find anything unless it is featured on the home page.
    You are talking in circles, and I have no idea where you are going. Of course being featured helps, and the average user's inability to search is evident on CrackBerry every day. While the search isn't as intuitive on CrapWorld, user incompetence can't be overcome in any app store. You still haven't backed your stats, nor provided any examples.

    I never said that it was only the reasons I listed, I only described what was the worst for me. Nor did I ever say that it has a future, or called anyone hater.
    Never said you said it. I said as pointless as.
    01-08-17 02:39 PM
  5. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    All that was necessary, to install an apk directly, from the very beginning, was to unlock development mode. They removed that requirement later on, but ART always allowed it.
    Here is an article from February 2013, i.e. the very beginning:
    How to put Android apps onto your BlackBerry 10 phone (Windows Guide) | CrackBerry.com

    Please kindly post a link to any article from that time indicating that it was possible to install APK files directly, without first converting them to BAR and signing, because I have never heard of it.

    You are talking in circles
    Mostly because you refuse to acknowledge anything.

    P.S. Writing everything in bold won't make it any wiser than it is.

    While the search isn't as intuitive on CrapWorld, user incompetence can't be overcome in any app store.
    But you won't change people, so you should try to adust to them. Of which Google Play is a good example, containing lots of categories on its front page where people can access them directly, instead of trying (and FAILING) to force people to find them themselves, which is what majority of them just won't do.

    Hiding all categories in some menus, only placing a few "Top" lists on the home page (which always show the same apps because they're the only apps majority of people can see, so those apps always get the most downloads and thus remain on top of those Top lists forever - a closed circle) and as if it wasn't enough always featuring the same apps on the Carousel (like the NY Times client not updated since early 2014, BeMaps not updated since early 2015, BeWeather not updated since Jan 2015 and so on) is the best recipe for an utter failure the BBW is. Seeing always the same apps on the home page since 2013 makes even the most die-hard BB fans want to puke, and that's while some 95% of native apps were never featured there even once.

    You still haven't backed your stats, nor provided any examples.
    Because I didn't have time to search for it. I said that I read it several times, which doesn't mean that I bookmarked them or remembered exactly where it was. A quick search returned such stats from several years ago (see here or here). As soon as I manage to find the more recent ones I read lately, be sure I'll forward it to you.
    Last edited by BurningPlatform; 01-08-17 at 08:20 PM.
    01-08-17 07:11 PM
  6. conite's Avatar
    The only explanation I can find is that BlackBerry simply wasn't 'convincing' enough.
    BlackBerry offered to port and support the apps themselves. Still no.
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    01-08-17 07:49 PM
  7. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    BlackBerry offered to port and support the apps themselves. Still no.
    Then sorry, I don't know. I am not a psychologist.
    Now seriously: someone else paid them not to do it.
    01-08-17 08:08 PM
  8. conite's Avatar
    Then sorry, I don't know. I am not a psychologist.
    Now seriously: someone else paid them not to do it.
    Ok. So without the big name apps which refused to come, the rest is just rearranging the furniture. No big apps, no ecosystem, no dice.
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    01-08-17 08:11 PM
  9. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    Ok. So without the big name apps which refused to come, the rest is just rearranging the furniture. No big apps, no ecosystem, no dice.
    That's all true. But question remains if a company that's unable to deal with problems like its competitors bribing others not to support their platform should do any kind of business whatsoever. Imagine what Microsoft or Apple would do if BlackBerry tried to bribe Netflix not to release their client for Windows Phone or iOS. If you do business you need to be a shark not a sheep....
    01-08-17 08:50 PM
  10. Emaderton3's Avatar
    Here is an article from February 2013, i.e. the very beginning:
    How to put Android apps onto your BlackBerry 10 phone (Windows Guide) | CrackBerry.com

    Please kindly post a link to any article from that time indicating that it was possible to install APK files directly, without first converting them to BAR and signing, because I have never heard of it.


    Mostly because you refuse to acknowledge anything.

    P.S. Writing everything in bold won't make it any wiser than it is.


    But you won't change people, so you should try to adust to them. Of which Google Play is a good example, containing lots of categories on its front page where people can access them directly, instead of trying (and FAILING) to force people to find them themselves, which is what majority of them just won't do.

    Hiding all categories in some menus, only placing a few "Top" lists on the home page (which always show the same apps because they're the only apps majority of people can see, so those apps always get the most downloads and thus remain on top of those Top lists forever - a closed circle) and as if it wasn't enough always featuring the same apps on the Carousel (like the NY Times client not updated since early 2014, BeMaps not updated since early 2015, BeWeather not updated since Jan 2015 and so on) is the best recipe for an utter failure the BBW is. Seeing always the same apps on the home page since 2013 makes even the most die-hard BB fans want to puke, and that's while some 95% of native apps were never featured there even once.


    Because I didn't have time to search for it. I said that I read it several times, which doesn't mean that I bookmarked them or remembered exactly where it was. A quick search returned such stats from several years ago (see here or here). As soon as I manage to find the more recent ones I read lately, be sure I'll forward it to you.
    This guide is from CB and not BlackBerry. BlackBerry didn't start officially pushing Android apps until 2014.



    Posted via CB10
    01-08-17 08:53 PM
  11. conite's Avatar
    That's all true. But question remains if a company that's unable to deal with problems like its competitors bribing others not to support their platform should do any kind of business whatsoever.
    Well, I see no evidence that that occurred, but if it did, then Apple, Google, or Microsoft could double any offer BlackBerry could make out of petty cash.
    01-08-17 09:03 PM
  12. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    This guide is from CB and not BlackBerry.
    Come on, I know where that guide is from. I just gave an example of what one needed to do in 2013 to install an Android app, and I asked him to post a link to ANY resource from that time stating that it was possible to install APK files directly since the beginning of BB10, because I have never heard of it.

    BlackBerry didn't start officially pushing Android apps until 2014.
    What are you talking about? BBW was literally filled up with Android apps already in January 2013. Randomly select any Android app in BBW and see its release date, e.g. this one:

    https://appworld.blackberry.com/webs...ontent/122454/
    01-08-17 09:05 PM
  13. conite's Avatar
    What are you talking about? BBW was literally filled up with Android apps already in January 2013.
    Actually BlackBerry only discussed Android compatibility with developers in 2013. They never promoted that with the general public, as they wanted the apps in BBW to appear as part of its native ecosystem.
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    01-08-17 09:13 PM
  14. Emaderton3's Avatar
    Actually BlackBerry only discussed Android compatibility with developers in 2013. They never promoted that with the general public, as they wanted the apps in BBW to appear as part of its native ecosystem.
    Exactly. They didn't push apks until later with the Amazon store.

    Posted via CB10
    01-08-17 09:17 PM
  15. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    Well, I see no evidence that that occurred, but if it did, then Apple, Google, or Microsoft could double any offer BlackBerry could make out of petty cash.
    Well, if - as you said - they refused to allow BlackBerry port and maintain the app themselves (i.e. without any cost or effort of theirs) and they also refused all other incentives then I think there can be only one possibility. As I said, they are commercial businesses, i.e. their goal is to make money and reach as many customers as possible. They wouldn't refuse to have their services available to a few million of customers only because they don't like BlackBerry. Someone must have made it more profitable for them not to have their client ported than to have it ported, I can't see any other valid explanation.
    01-08-17 09:19 PM
  16. conite's Avatar
    Well, if - as you said - they refused to allow BlackBerry port and maintain the app themselves (i.e. without any cost or effort of theirs) and they also refused all other incentives then I think there can be only one possibility. As I said, they are commercial businesses, i.e. their goal is to make money and reach as many customers as possible. They wouldn't refuse to have their services available to a few million of customers only because they don't like BlackBerry. Someone must have made it more profitable for them not to have their client ported than to have it ported, I can't see any other valid explanation.
    Occam's razor.

    I believe they just didn't need or care about BlackBerry rather than being part of a global conspiracy.

    And even it did happen as you feared, BlackBerry would have been powerless to stop it.
    Last edited by conite; 01-08-17 at 09:35 PM.
    01-08-17 09:22 PM
  17. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Here is an article from February 2013, i.e. the very beginning:
    How to put Android apps onto your BlackBerry 10 phone (Windows Guide) | CrackBerry.com

    Please kindly post a link to any article from that time indicating that it was possible to install APK files directly, without first converting them to BAR and signing, because I have never heard of it.


    Mostly because you refuse to acknowledge anything.

    P.S. Writing everything in bold won't make it any wiser than it is.


    But you won't change people, so you should try to adust to them. Of which Google Play is a good example, containing lots of categories on its front page where people can access them directly, instead of trying (and FAILING) to force people to find them themselves, which is what majority of them just won't do.

    Hiding all categories in some menus, only placing a few "Top" lists on the home page (which always show the same apps because they're the only apps majority of people can see, so those apps always get the most downloads and thus remain on top of those Top lists forever - a closed circle) and as if it wasn't enough always featuring the same apps on the Carousel (like the NY Times client not updated since early 2014, BeMaps not updated since early 2015, BeWeather not updated since Jan 2015 and so on) is the best recipe for an utter failure the BBW is. Seeing always the same apps on the home page since 2013 makes even the most die-hard BB fans want to puke, and that's while some 95% of native apps were never featured there even once.


    Because I didn't have time to search for it. I said that I read it several times, which doesn't mean that I bookmarked them or remembered exactly where it was. A quick search returned such stats from several years ago (see here or here). As soon as I manage to find the more recent ones I read lately, be sure I'll forward it to you.
    You are right. My memory of having to convert apk early on failed me.

    As for all the never downloaded apps, that I don't doubt. There are a lot of crap apps out there. That good apps lay hidden in any app store, that I doubt.
    01-08-17 09:35 PM
  18. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    Exactly. They didn't push apks until later with the Amazon store.
    What does it have to do with what I was talking about, i.e. that it wasn't possible to directly install APK files prior to 10.2.1? And how does it contradict the fact that the BBW store was full of Android apps already in 2013, just not officially labeled as Android apps?
    01-08-17 09:36 PM
  19. conite's Avatar
    As an aside, I have to admit that it was a lot of fun in the early days - converting to bar, getting debug tokens to be able to install Android apps with native code, sideloading, etc.
    01-08-17 09:39 PM
  20. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Well, if - as you said - they refused to allow BlackBerry port and maintain the app themselves (i.e. without any cost or effort of theirs) and they also refused all other incentives then I think there can be only one possibility. As I said, they are commercial businesses, i.e. their goal is to make money and reach as many customers as possible. They wouldn't refuse to have their services available to a few million of customers only because they don't like BlackBerry. Someone must have made it more profitable for them not to have their client ported than to have it ported, I can't see any other valid explanation.
    It would have cost them testing and supporting the apps, even if porting was free. The conspiracy theory is a good read, but highly unlikely. Apple and Google were hardly being threatened by BlackBerry.
    StephanieMaks likes this.
    01-08-17 09:47 PM
  21. conite's Avatar
    It would have cost them testing and supporting the apps, even if porting was free. The conspiracy theory is a good read, but highly unlikely. Apple and Google were hardly being threatened by BlackBerry.
    Believe it or not, BlackBerry offered many of the big name apps free support - at least at first to prove the business case to them.
    01-08-17 09:48 PM
  22. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    Occam's razor. I believe they just didn't need or care about BlackBerry rather than being part of a global conspiracy.
    Why conspiracy? Just not rejecting any possibilities. It was a war, especially with Microsoft, to be the 3rd.

    I just can't imagine any money making business not willing to reach a further few million customers at no cost or effort. I'd understand if the platform was considered to small to invest any time and money into making and supporting a client for it, but if they were really offered to have it done and supported for free then it just makes no sense, unless what I wrote.

    And even it did happen as you feared, BlackBerry would have been powerless to stop it.
    If the future of the platform depended on it (and it did), then the only solution was to PAY MORE than others... Or close the business.
    01-08-17 09:51 PM
  23. conite's Avatar
    If the future of the platform depended on it (and it did), then the only solution was to PAY MORE than others... Or close the business.
    Outbid Google, Apple, or Microsoft?

    BlackBerry's ultimate solution was to put the company up for sale in the fall of 2013.
    BigBadWulf and StephanieMaks like this.
    01-08-17 09:54 PM
  24. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    It would have cost them testing and supporting the apps, even if porting was free. The conspiracy theory is a good read, but highly unlikely. Apple and Google were hardly being threatened by BlackBerry.
    Apple or Google definitely weren't. Microsoft was.
    And what Microsoft can do when they want something.... check out how they **** Sendo in early 2000's.
    01-08-17 09:55 PM
  25. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Believe it or not, BlackBerry offered many of the big name apps free support - at least at first to prove the business case to them.
    True, but they still would have had their name smeared, had there been bugs, and eventually needed to provide support.

    Edit - One other issue that probably was a factor was association/image. By the time BB10 came out, BlackBerry was regarded as, to put it kindly, uncool. Sometimes it's about more than immediate sales. Here's a perfect example...
    I sold Scions for a while. The Xb was a very popular car with cabbies. By covenant, we were not allowed to sell to them. The product image was more important to Toyota, than sales volume.
    01-08-17 09:56 PM
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